yet another school shooting....

[madvlad]

http://news.yahoo.com/official-27-dead-conn-school-shooting-175512619.html

unreal what this world is coming to... Prayers and condolences to those families during this time.

[rforsythe]

Keep this conversation rational, folks... I can already see where this is headed.

[mauser72]

Humans are just a nasty violent species we have always killed eachother and will continue to do so until our demise no amount of control on anything will stop this its just the way it is.

[madvlad]

Just my opinion man, that's all.

[Matty]

18 children and 8 adults. Fucken ridiculous and scary knowing that I have daughter in elementary school.

Thoughts and prayers to the families.

[Ghosty]

Agree with rsforsythe.

Guns only make it quicker and easier, not gonna solve anything. We need to look at the ROOT CAUSE. Mental health and any large population is gonna have a percentage of unstable, psycho, depressed, violent, dangerous BRAINS. Just the odds, not much to do except add security where needed. Obviously the threat of prison doesn't even work, only drains MY WALLET of tax dollars on these cuntbags.

[Rider]

This is one of those threads where everyone needs to be respectful to those who have lost their lives, your comments about gun control and how it will and will not work need to be kept to themselves, Madvlad you are better than that, don't stir shit up man.

[Ghettodsm]

Makes me feel sick to my stomach... Is it just me or is crap like this becoming more frequent? Just unbelievable...

[Ghosty]

Holy shit, CNN now reporting closer to 30 killed. WTF?!!!! How many were killed at Columbine or Aurora theater? Pray for those families.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/mad.gif

[rforsythe]

I think it just gets more reporting now days.

I wonder if that's part of the problem as well. I think it is occurring more frequently, but perhaps the level to which we popularize incidents like this is partly to blame? Someone on the edge starts reading excruciating details about someone else's rampage, things gel, stuff happens. Just a theory though.

[madvlad]

This is one of those threads where everyone needs to be respectful to those who have lost their lives, your comments about gun control and how it will and will not work need to be kept to themselves, Madvlad you are better than that, don't stir shit up man.

Yea I do apologize for that, just got really mad about this but certainly should've kept that comment to myself... It is a good theory ralph, it is a revolving society in which people soak up what goes on and make it happen.

[longrider]

Makes me feel sick to my stomach... Is it just me or is crap like this becoming more frequent? Just unbelievable...

It is not just you, this stuff is happening more often. I have frequently argued that the internet and instant news had made thing seem worse than they used to be and in many cases that is true. Take motorcycle fatalities as an example, we cant believe how many are happening but the simple fact is that 30 years ago if you didn't know the rider the chances of you hearing about it was somewhere between slim and none. Now take something like this shooting, 30 years ago you would not hear about it until the evening news or maybe the next mornings newspaper but it would have been nationwide by the next day

[Ezzzzy1]

Makes me wonder why so many schools are getting shot up and not a single guns store.... :dunno:

I would be perfectly comfortable with my kids attending a school where the teachers were trained and carried (concealed of course).

Sad day for sure. The media blasting this from every angle does not help anything. If anything it spews inaccurate information because they are all in a race to report and be exports. They all talk to talk. They talk so that they are not the only channel not talking. That and it glorifies everything to people that do this stuff.

[JKOL]

I wonder if that's part of the problem as well. I think it is occurring more frequently, but perhaps the level to which we popularize incidents like this is partly to blame? Someone on the edge starts reading excruciating details about someone else's rampage, things gel, stuff happens. Just a theory though.

Sadly, I don't think you are far off the mark. If you are crazy enough to rationalize killing a bunch of people for no reason, maybe this is just the attention you crave.

And in China also....http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2

Right now I am hoping the Mayans are right, get me the F$#K off this ride.

RIP to those lost and to their families.

[I`m Batman]

Right now I am hoping the Mayans are right, get me the F$#K off this ride.



Well... They maybe right but the people that came up with the Dec 2012 date are wrong... They forgot to turn to the next page after 2012...
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/05/safe-new-mayan-calendar-discovered-doesnt-end-2012/52191/

What? You mean there's more than one page?

[Ghosty]

I think it just gets more reporting now days.
No way, everyone always says that, including about massive natural disasters. It's all on the rise, this is way more frequent. And we've had written news and historical recordings for centuries. Definitely more frequent, just draw a straight timeline and look at the markers along it, over the last century alone.

*not a ChickenLittle, just the facts ma'am*

18+ children, from K-4th grade, plus 10 more adults. Disgusting.

[longrider]

At the gun store I go to everybody carries, most openly. I dont care how good you are there is no way you would take out everybody before you were taken out.

[Ghosty]

Nya, no time. Anyone can go look up all the shootings (schools, churches, theater, public places, malls, whatever, etc.) over the last 10 years, then look up the number over the last half century, then over the last century. Let's see how it pans out...

[longrider]

OK, I went here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres

1st half of the 20th century: 3
1960s: 2
1970s: 6
1980s: 5
1990s: 11
2000s: 27
2010s: 10 (in only 3 years)

[asp_125]

I really wonder what goes through these people's heads when they decide to commit such atrocities. I suppose it's too wishful to hope for a bullet.

[JKOL]

I really wonder what goes through these people's heads when they decide to commit such atrocities. I suppose it's too wishful to hope for a bullet.

I am with you. Call me old fashioned, but I miss the day when depressed or crazy people just killed themselves. Why the need to take people with you?

I have never been more glad my mom retired from teaching, now I just need to convince her to quit substituting ocassionally.

[Ghosty]

Done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Its just school shootings but it seems the 80s-90s were the worst. Only like six in 2010.
Just now on FoxNews: "Of the 10 deadliest shootings in history, 7 have happened since 2007."

[asp_125]

Call me old fashioned too, I miss the days when school kids had a disagreement, they'd settle it after school at the soccer field and kick the shit out of each other. They learned to resolve conflict or avoid it. With the new no bullying and zero tolerance policies the kids bottle up their anger inside until years later they snap like this. (Pure conjecture that this particular case is anything related, however)

[JKOL]

Call me old fashioned too, I miss the days when school kids had a disagreement, they'd settle it after school at the soccer field and kick the shit out of each other. They learned to resolve conflict or avoid it. With the new no bullying and zero tolerance policies the kids bottle up their anger inside until years later they snap like this. (Pure conjecture that this particular case is anything related, however)

:imwithstupid:

[bulldog]

Call me old fashioned too, I miss the days when school kids had a disagreement, they'd settle it after school at the soccer field and kick the shit out of each other. They learned to resolve conflict or avoid it. With the new no bullying and zero tolerance policies the kids bottle up their anger inside until years later they snap like this. (Pure conjecture that this particular case is anything related, however) 100% agree!!!!!

School yard fights end in a few scratches and bruises instead of now with kids dead.

[rforsythe]

This was an adult, reportedly the husband of the teacher whose room was shot up. Nothing to do with a school yard dust-up, or some kid feeling unloved.

[mdub]

This was an adult, reportedly the husband of the teacher whose room was shot up. Nothing to do with a school yard dust-up, or some kid feeling unloved.


:up:

[TFOGGuys]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims, their families, and their friends.


How can this happen? Don't criminals know that schools are federally mandated Gun Free Zones? Oh wait. They DO know that, and that's why they target schools. And movie theaters. And offices with "no weapons" policies.

When are people going to start looking at the problem in terms of its cause, and not the instrument that the criminal chose to use? In countries where guns are heavily restricted, knives become the weapon of choice (look up knife massacres if you don't believe me). Any moderately bright 9 year old can formulate explosives or poisons from a trip to Walgreens. I don't have any answers on WHY these sick fucks do the shit that they do, but the solution is a lot less complex. I have a real problem with cocksuckers like James Holmes wasting the oxygen on MY planet. A murder trial with this much evidence shouldn't take 4 years to make it to trial, and another 30 before they stick a needle in his twisted ass. "Insanity" is no defense, merely an explanation. Ok, so he's fucking crazy. And guilty of multiple murders. Put a bullet in the base of his skull and move on.

[bulldog]

This was an adult, reportedly the husband of the teacher whose room was shot up. Nothing to do with a school yard dust-up, or some kid feeling unloved. I took it as a general statement made by asp_125 and not about this shooting since thread went way beyond this shooting a long time ago. Hey that is CSC though.....gun rights and so many threads end up going this route :horse:

[Ghosty]

Possible weapons found: Bushmaster AR-15, Glock, & SigSauer, plus "combat gear". Killed his brother/roommate in Hoboken, drove 80 miles to a CT. house (secondary scene still investigating), then to the school to shoot his Mother, and all others.

Apparently there's already the wrong Ryan Lanza pic floating around and that guy had to take down his FB profile, and is getting hounded, geeze. Sucks to be him. Also might be a brother Adam Lanza taking his ID, who knows. Guess we'll find out by tonight or tomorrow for sure...

[asp_125]

This was an adult, reportedly the husband of the teacher whose room was shot up. Nothing to do with a school yard dust-up, or some kid feeling unloved.

Not what I read from ABC news. Of course details are sketchy and confused. Anyway, that's not the point here. Tragic work of some sick fuck.


A heavily armed man invaded a Newtown, Conn., elementary school today, killing his mother and 26 others, mostly children, federal and state sources tell ABC News. The gunman, identified as Ryan Lanza, 24, of New Jersey, was killed inside of the school.

[Ghettodsm]

Possible weapons found: Bushmaster AR-15, Glock, & SigSauer, plus "combat gear". Killed his brother/roommate in Hoboken, drove 80 miles to a CT. house (secondary scene still investigating), then to the school to shoot his Mother, and all others.

Apparently there's already the wrong Ryan Lanza pic floating around and that guy had to take down his FB profile, and is getting hounded, geeze. Sucks to be him. Also might be a brother Adam Lanza taking his ID, who knows. Guess we'll find out by tonight or tomorrow for sure...

apparently that is not him...insane! Poor guy.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2012/12/hoboken_man_identified_by_medi.html?utm_source=twi tterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

What is really sickening is the media (as always) with their "reporting" without getting any facts!!!! I can't stand the sensationalist media BS! After watching tv for 15 min I turned that crap off and took the dog for a walk.

[JKOL]

apparently that is not him...insane! Poor guy.
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2012/12/hoboken_man_identified_by_medi.html?utm_source=twi tterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

What is really sickening is the media (as always) with their "reporting" without getting any facts!!!! I can't stand the sensationalist media BS! After watching tv for 15 min I turned that crap off and took the dog for a walk.

Number 1 rule in media is be the 1st to report it, facts be damned.

I find it absolutely sickening that the media is interviewing children about what happened and what they saw. Leave those kids alone you sick f&*ks, let them go home and hug their teddy bears. They have had enough trauma today without your dumb ass trying to make a career by getting the best story.

[madvlad]

Media does tend to stir the pot a lot more with their guessing

[Ghosty]

It's not the media's fault this time. The CT. LEO's released that info to all the press. Apparently there might be mistaken ID, or stolen ID on the shooters body now. It's still not clear, they don't want to say it's Ryan Lanza though, just yet...

[Ghettodsm]

Number 1 rule in media is be the 1st to report it, facts be damned.

I find it absolutely sickening that the media is interviewing children about what happened and what they saw. Leave those kids alone you sick f&*ks, let them go home and hug their teddy bears. They have had enough trauma today without your dumb ass trying to make a career by getting the best story.

Exactly! Beyond distasteful, interesting(read -FUBAR) times we live in right now.

[Ghettodsm]

Or the photos flying around on facebook. Dude thats someines kid at what could possible be the worst day of their luves. How would you feel if yournkids photo was flying around on the internet?

Indeed!

[madvlad]

Or the photos flying around on facebook. Dude thats someines kid at what could possible be the worst day of their luves. How would you feel if yournkids photo was flying around on the internet?


Yep, this right here... This Mexican singer died earlier this week when her plane went down in Mexico and someone posted the pictures of her remains on facebook... That is just sickening in its entirety given how morbid people are. Disgusted by this :no:

[PunyJuney]

I had to cut and paste this from a friend of a friend's FB post. I don't agree with all of it, but I do think this guy has a very valid point.

"We as humans must stop this madness. Gun control is NOT the answer. More security at schools is NOT the answer. Suing movie theaters for lack of security is NOT the answer. We need to reverse this politically correct mentality we have and start punishing the youth for behaving badly.

I see too many parents letting their children run their lives. Not spanking them because it's "abuse", not correcting them because they're children and they need to grow in their own way. BULLSHIT! Spank the shit out of that kid when they are wrong, yell at them in public to correct them. We must take back control of todays youth.

There has always been violence and evil but this is the no punishment generation that is committing these horrendous crimes. Too many early 20's having mental issues and my personal belief is that it's a direct result of lack of punishment and not being held accountable for things they do wrong. They have no idea what life is going to deal them and they snap as soon as the safeties of mommy and daddy are removed. In this case so much he decided to kill them even.

If you are a parent please take control of your children. Love them by correcting them, spanking them and teaching them that this is unacceptable. It starts with us as parents and I am as much a part of this as any parent. If you see an un easy change in your teen or twenty something PLEASE advise someone and or take actions to help them.

This is NOT a religious situation. This is a parenting issue.

Sad day here in the world. Send your thoughts to these families today. Take actions to change it tomorrow."

[Captain Obvious]

Makes me wonder why so many schools are getting shot up and not a single guns store.... :dunno:

I would be perfectly comfortable with my kids attending a school where the teachers were trained and carried (concealed of course).



Me too on the school concealed point.

Gunstore doesn't equal easy prey.

Analogy isn't mine, but I agree with the notion. Sheep, sheepdogs and wolves.
http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

[Hoot]

This was an adult, reportedly the husband of the teacher whose room was shot up. Nothing to do with a school yard dust-up, or some kid feeling unloved.



Or was it? I'm totally playing devils advocate here but goes with what was brought up by puneyjenny.

This "man" was still 20 from the latest reports. Still a damned child. One who probably never had a scuffle in school, or had a parent that spanked them for doing wrong.

Also saw something about all the firearms were legally purchased, by his mother. So gun control would not have had an effect on the minor in possession of a firearm who was determined to do wrong.

[50sGrl]

Spank the shit out of that kid when they are wrong, yell at them in public to correct them. We must take back control of todays youth.

There has always been violence and evil but this is the no punishment generation that is committing these horrendous crimes. Too many early 20's having mental issues and my personal belief is that it's a direct result of lack of punishment and not being held accountable for things they do wrong.

Oh, if only it were this easy. Punishment and being held accountable will not make a seriously mentally ill youngster any less of a seriously mentally ill adolescent or adult.

And guns in the classrooms??? I don't think so. I can see allowing only 1 entrance into a school with a properly-trained officer or armed guard there, maybe even a metal detector. But if I'm a mother of a young child, there's no way I'm sending him or her to a school with any number of loaded guns on site.

[PunyJuney]

Oh, if only it were this easy. Punishment and being held accountable will not make a seriously mentally ill youngster any less of a seriously mentally ill adolescent or adult.

Like I said, I don't agree with all of it....but I really think parents need to step up. A seriously mentally ill youngster should be in treatment supervised by their family not left to fend for themselves at the detriment of others.

[Hoot]

But if I'm a mother of a young child, there's no way I'm sending him or her to a school with any number of loaded guns on site.

Why may I ask?

Are you uncomfortable around armed security or police officers because they are armed?

[Hoot]

My point is this. Right now guns are not legal in schools. No teachers are allowed to carry. These horrible acts of gun violence keep happening where no one is legally allowed to carry a firearm. Strangely enough the criminals aren't listening.

Crazy?

Continuing to do something the 1 way and expecting different results.

[Monster]

This isn't a problem with guns. It is a problem with society. The sooner people start trying to catch these wackos before they snap the better off their time will be. Blaming the gun for violence is like me blaming my #2 pencil for misssspelled words.

[Ninja2]

How horrible. My heart goes out to the families in Newtown.

I hope this will bring more attention to mental health. A better infrastructure for diagnosis and treatment, a society more acceptable, but also family members and friends to take action when they see "warning signs" rather than ignoring them. Mental health has to stop being a taboo within families and society. No healthy person commits a horrific crime like this!

[laspariahs]

Bad day to go to school i guess.

China.

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/385705/man-stabs-22-children-in-china-authorities#.UMurCBpZ4qE

No one died in this one though.

[MRA 32]

I have spent some time in a mental health facility as a nursing student...I can tell those of you that haven't seen what goes on, would be shocked! As a society we need more treatment opportunities for these patients. Funding is tight and I think we are at a tipping point in society that we need to address this problem. Mental health is real and not a choice. Parents need to educate themselves about warning signs with their children and adults need to be aware of those around them. A large percentage of mentally ill people seek medical attention within 30 days of committing suicide, I would be curious if this individual did the same.

I agree that alot of our problems are brought on by lack of good parenting, terrible media, and a very liberal society. I don't have a non-religous answer on how to solve these problems.

I am sorry for those who have lost loved ones in this attack.

[laspariahs]

You want to get stabbed? That shit hurts.

Rather live through something painful than die of something quickly.

[Ghettodsm]

How horrible. My heart goes out to the families in Newtown.

I hope this will bring more attention to mental health. A better infrastructure for diagnosis and treatment, a society more acceptable, but also family members and friends to take action when they see "warning signs" rather than ignoring them. Mental health has to stop being a taboo within families and society. No healthy person commits a horrific crime like this!

This! I talked to my grandpa yesterday about the ct shooting and in regards to mental illness and how we have changed as a society in his lifetime. He said when he was young (late 40's) coming back from WWII and the military had to deal with PSD and other trauma related illness - they did this =nothing!!! If you kept "acting up" as my grandpa put it you simply were put in the brig or worse put in a asylum. My grandma was put in an asylum at a young age just for having bi-polar traits. Now though we have gone from a "commit them and throw away the key" mentality to a "give them meds and forget about it' mentality. Mental illness and the way it is treated needs to be looked at and IMHO completely revamped. Hopefully it changes soon with acts like these bringing mental health and the way it is treated(or not at all) to the forefront. Maybe take a cue from the way the NBA looks at mental health(seriously) - I think society needs to look at mental health/illness as not just something that a small few have and needs to be dealt with meds and hope that it goes away.

[laspariahs]

Youre completely missing the point. And a stabbing can have extreme life altering results. Sure maybe none of them died but that doesnt make it less tragic. Still innocent kids and families scarred for life.

You seem to be missing the point, no matter how life altering, I'd rather be alive. It's always better to be alive than dead, always. And it's far less scaring to the people not left behind.

I get that everyone wants to point this out so that we can all tell ourselves that with out gunS this guy would have still been able to kill all those kids, well fact is, he wouldn't have, as proven by the Chinese incident where no one died, but 20 people were stabbed.

No matter where I would be hit, I'd rather be stabbed than shot, and anyone that thinks otherwise, well.....

[Wrider]

You seem to be missing the point, no matter how life altering, I'd rather be alive. It's always better to be alive than dead, always. And it's far less scaring to the people not left behind.

I get that everyone wants to point this out so that we can all tell ourselves that with out gunS this guy would have still been able to kill all those kids, well fact is, he wouldn't have, as proven by the Chinese incident where no one died, but 20 people were stabbed.

No matter where I would be hit, I'd rather be stabbed than shot, and anyone that thinks otherwise, well.....

Well what?

Personally it would depend. If it's within 20 feet I'd give someone a gun over a knife any day of the week. Besides it's not like you can't redirect a firearm. I've seen the results of trying to redirect a knife and it's not pretty.

[50sGrl]

Why may I ask?

Are you uncomfortable around armed security or police officers because they are armed?

Not at all. At least not around armed police officers. Security . . . depends on the training and qualifications.


Im kind of curious about this post. First you say you would be okay with one armed guard but then you say you wouldnt be okay with any number of firearms. Im guessing you would be okay with a officer who does his post certs but not okay with a teacher? I dont really understand that. One person isnt born with special abilities to use a firearm. How would you feel if the school district took a handful of staff and had them train with local police/swat to establish a proper security/ containment scenarios for these events. Basically staff like pe teachers and janitorial workers would be able to single out the problem area and create line of defense for the rest of the children. The staff could work on these tactics during the summer at the school so that no only would the swat teams be familiar with the layout but so local leo has a bit more info of the whos whys and whats.

Well, my thinking begins with this: First of all, I am a gun owner. When my kids were young, the guns and the ammo were stored, locked, separately. It just seems to me that's necessary when kids (or unstable adults) are in proximity. Assuming all other issues/problems aside, if teachers/school employees are armed or have access to weapons there in the school, in the time that employee begins to hear shots/screams/etc., unlocks both ammo and weapon, loads, and searches for the problem, people have probably already died. Which leads me to the question, Why let the shooter in the school in the first place? When I lived in Northern Virginia, my kids' school teams occasionally played the Islamic Saudi Academy teams at that school. There was only one entry/exit point with an armed guard and a metal detector. Other exits were available but were alarmed. This seemed very efficient and effective.

Now as for those "issues/problems." Even if ammo/guns are locked, no lock is foolproof. Tell certain kids they can't have something, they want it more than anything. They know something is locked, it is now the ultimate challenge to obtain. And sometimes adults just make mistakes. What will it be like that first time there is an injury or death, accidental or otherwise, caused by an "allowed" firearm in the school? And I don't think training school staff with SWAT members is going to solve all problems. The issue isn't just the shooting, the marksmanship, itself. I'm sure the online officers could speak to this better than I, but it seems to me that there is much more to training an officer than just marksmanship. I have to believe that (1) only those with a certain emotional and mental makeup/mindset are even allowed into training and (2) that there is substantial training and retraining focusing on critical issues such as how to effectively and safely handle unexpected and possibly deadly situations without collateral damage, etc. Again, I defer to the officers (and as an aside, I am curious how they would feel sending their children to a "citizen-armed" school).

I have no doubt that there will be found "holes" in my thinking, but I certainly don't mind sharing that thinking with you. This is a very difficult, troubling situation either way. But I do believe that this particular tragedy is not really a gun issue but a mental health issue. And although it's easy to point fingers in an effort to understand how something so horrific could happen, I don't believe laying blanket blame on parents or bullies or whatever without specific reason or facts serves any good purpose. Every situation is different and every troubled person is unique.

[dirkterrell]

I wonder why we haven't heard about this in the national news?

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

[Bueller]

They can't sensationalize that into non stop coverage.

[Wrider]

50sgrl, I will comment that I have had full access to my own weapon (starting with a .22) and ammo since I got it as a gift at 12 years old. It was never accidentally discharged.

[Ezzzzy1]

Have two friends that work at two different gun shops. Both shops in the past day have had over 4 hr wait times on their background checks. This wait is about 3 hours more than average and at least an hour more than even peak times (the wait times following the Aurora shooting were around 2 1/2 hours).

The next crazy statistic out of all this is that CCW will spike (again). I was told that following the Aurora shooting, in Douglas county, applications went from around 2200 for the previous year to 2400 for the 2 months following.

All that said. Im thinking that the next cluster fuck involving guns will be tons of idiots (legally) carrying guns around. Saying that someone is qualified to carry a gun (because they have a license) is the same as saying that we trust that anyone passing a driving test can drive. The last thing this country needs is a bunch of paranoid retards running to carry guns. This isnt a perfect world anymore. Its not the kind of place that you trust that people you dont know have good morals and come from a background of even a par upbringing. Honestly, do you believe that the guy in front of you is going to use his blinker before he cuts you off? Just the same, do you think that "tard A" is competent enough to use the gun hes concealing (probably out of popularity) for the right reasons?

I guess I just dont trust the majority of society to make the right decision when the right decision NEEDS to be made.

[dirkterrell]

Very interesting read:

http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/madness-deinstitutionalization-murder

[TransNone13]

Very interesting read:

http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/madness-deinstitutionalization-murder

Thanks for the read, good stuff.

[bluedogok]

I have spent some time in a mental health facility as a nursing student...I can tell those of you that haven't seen what goes on, would be shocked! As a society we need more treatment opportunities for these patients. Funding is tight and I think we are at a tipping point in society that we need to address this problem. Mental health is real and not a choice. Parents need to educate themselves about warning signs with their children and adults need to be aware of those around them. A large percentage of mentally ill people seek medical attention within 30 days of committing suicide, I would be curious if this individual did the same.

I agree that alot of our problems are brought on by lack of good parenting, terrible media, and a very liberal society. I don't have a non-religous answer on how to solve these problems.

I am sorry for those who have lost loved ones in this attack.


Very interesting read:

http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/madness-deinstitutionalization-murder
I still contend that the deinstitutionalization movement of the 60-70's stemming from the Community Mental Health Act of 1963 set much of this into motion There are some people that just don't need to be in the general population. The system was dismantled because of past abuses, a typical gov't overreaction to something. Then you have some in the psychiatric community and big pharma who think they can solve all the problem through medication without considering that many people in that condition are not responsible enough to stay on their meds. There are things that cannot be fixed with meds or therapy. It also requires that family and friends realize someone has problems, too many ignore those signs until something happens.

My wife worked at the Austin State Hospital when she was in grad school at Southwest Texas State, she saw it first hand that the mind can be a very fragile and scary thing, even when medicated.

[TFOGGuys]

I'm not going to say that everyone should carry a gun. I do know teachers that carry in violation of god knows how many laws, because they think it's worth it IF that terrible situation comes.

I often hear people say that a common citizen with a gun can't make a difference. Bullshit. They can, and have.

http://www.volokh.com/2012/12/14/do-civilians-armed-with-guns-ever-capture-kill-or-otherwise-stop-mass-shooters/


Backers of laws that let pretty much all law-abiding carry concealed guns in public places often argue that these laws will sometimes enable people to stop mass shootings. Opponents occasionally ask: If that’s so, what examples can one give of civilians armed with guns stopping such shootings? Sometimes, I hear people asking if even one such example can be found, or saying that they haven’t heard even one such example.

Naturally, such examples will be rare, partly because mass shootings are rare, partly because many mass shootings happen in supposedly “gun-free” zones (such as schools, universities, or private property posted with a no-guns sign) in which gun carrying isn’t allowed, and partly for other reasons. Moreover, at least some examples are contested, because it might be unclear — as you’ll see below — whether the shooter had been planning to kill more people when he was stopped. But here are instances that I have seen, not counting killings stopped by people who were off-duty police officers (or police officers from other jurisdictions) at the time of the shooting.

1. In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School to continue shooting, though I couldn’t find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.
2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1996, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun — possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I’ve seen are unclear — when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home. It’s not clear whether Wurst was planning to kill others, would have gotten into a gun battle with the police, or would have otherwise killed more people had Strand not stopped him.
3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008, Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license). It’s not clear whether Villagomez would have killed more people; the killings were apparently the result of a family feud, and I could see no information on whether Villagomez had more names on his list, nor could one tell whether he would have killed more people in trying to evade capture.
4. In Colorado Springs in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn’t worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself; it is again not clear whether he would have killed more people had he not been wounded, but my guess is that he would have.

So it appears that civilians armed with guns are sometimes willing to intervene to stop someone who had just committed a mass shooting in public. In what fraction of mass shootings would such interventions happen, if gun possession were allowed in the places where the shootings happen? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions prevent more killings and injuries, as opposed to capturing or killing the murderer after he’s already done? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions lead to more injuries to bystanders? Again, we don’t know. Finally, always keep in mind that mass shootings in public places should not be the main focus in the gun debate, whether for gun control or gun decontrol: They on average account for much less than 1% of all homicides in the U.S., and are unusually hard to stop through gun control laws (since the killer is bent on committing a publicly visible murder and is thus unlikely to be much deterred by gun control law, or by the prospect of encountering an armed bystander).

Still, people have asked for examples of some shootings in which a civilian armed with a gun intervened and brought down the shooter — so here they are.

Add to that the Clackamas mall, The Sikh Temple, and this:

http://rense.com/general19/schd.htm


Two of the three Virginia law students who overpowered a gunman in a fatal school shooting were armed and used their weapons to disarm the shooter. Yet of the 280 stories written about the shooting, a mere four mentioned the fact that the heroic students were armed and used their guns to halt the rampage.

It becomes pretty clear that you don't have to be some combination of Jason Bourne, Robocop and a SWAT team to take meaningful action, you just need to be able to act. Many more incidents that COULD have become "mass shootings" have been reduced to not being newsworthy by someone taking action early. Could a CCW have prevented the CT shooting entirely? Maybe not. Could it have reduced the magnitude of the tragedy? Maybe.

[The Black Knight]

I'm not going to say that everyone should carry a gun. I do know teachers that carry in violation of god knows how many laws, because they think it's worth it IF that terrible situation comes.

I often hear people say that a common citizen with a gun can't make a difference. Bullshit. They can, and have.

http://www.volokh.com/2012/12/14/do-civilians-armed-with-guns-ever-capture-kill-or-otherwise-stop-mass-shooters/



Add to that the Clackamas mall, The Sikh Temple, and this:

http://rense.com/general19/schd.htm



It becomes pretty clear that you don't have to be some combination of Jason Bourne, Robocop and a SWAT team to take meaningful action, you just need to be able to act. Many more incidents that COULD have become "mass shootings" have been reduced to not being newsworthy by someone taking action early. Could a CCW have prevented the CT shooting entirely? Maybe not. Could it have reduced the magnitude of the tragedy? Maybe.
See that's always what makes me laugh when people don't believe that the common citizen can make a sound judgement and stop a shooting.

People always believe that the Government or in this case Law Enforcement are better equipped, better trained and have a better mindset to deal with a shooting.

But I have yet to understand how people think that a police officer can take a gunman easier than I can?? I have a relative that is retired CSPD of 28 years, and I've asked him how much officers really shoot and how much they train. And unless it's changed since he was in uniform, he told me that average run of the mill beat cop, qualifies twice a year and he told me, for most of the officers he served with. Those two times per year were the only times they brought their guns out to shoot. He even told me that SWAT don't train as much as everyone is led to believe. Course this is back in the 90's right when he retired(so I'm sure in recent years, SWAT train more and harder). But I'm going off of what he's told me from his years in service.

So let me get this straight. A cop who shoots just twice a year has better training, better judgement with a weapon than I do??? I still shoot close to 5000 rounds per year. Was as high as 10000 when the ammo shortage hit back in 2008. I'm someone who shoots usually two times per month, and sometimes more if I feel like it. But I always get to the range in two week intervals. I practice many kinds of techniques and drills. And this is just pistol training, I'm not talking about rifle. I practice rifle quite a bit too and I dare say there are few cops that can group a half dollar at 600+ in wind. I know many hunters and people that shoot long rifles can. But how many cops train for precision??

Yet somehow, me and people like me aren't up to the task of taking on a deranged shooter?? I know several CCW people that have the same mindset that I do. It was the mindset that my instructor told me to burn into my head before I even think about carrying a firearm. It's the mindset of one day, I may have to draw my weapon in defense of myself or someone else and that I should feel more than confident in the fact that, if my pistol comes from my holster I can hit what I'm aiming at. And that the possibility of taking a life is present when my firearm leaves its holster.

I came to terms with that, years ago. It's an ethos that you live by being CCW.

Now, I know people think that CCW'er's are just wannabe Rambo's. That's not the case for me or the several people that I know that carry. We are all humble in the fact that we've been given a responsibility to protect ourselves and family. We are also constantly praying that the day never arrives that we do have to draw on someone. I don't look forward to that day and never have. But I know, should that day arrive. My training and practice will automatically kick in and I'll be able to do what is called upon me to do.

[asp_125]

..
It becomes pretty clear that you don't have to be some combination of Jason Bourne, Robocop and a SWAT team to take meaningful action, you just need to be able to act. Many more incidents that COULD have become "mass shootings" have been reduced to not being newsworthy by someone taking action early. Could a CCW have prevented the CT shooting entirely? Maybe not. Could it have reduced the magnitude of the tragedy? Maybe.

In all the quoted cases, mass deaths were possibly averted, but people still died. It's like fixing an oil burning engine by adding more oil; you haven't solved the problem, just making it less severe.

It's not about fucking guns, or knives or bombs etc! By the time we REACT it's already too late. We need to prevent the first shot from being ever fired. It's a societal problem on how/why we produce these wack jobs and how we isolate or integrate them into the general population.

[Hoot]

In all the quoted cases, mass deaths were possibly averted, but people still died. It's like fixing an oil burning engine by adding more oil; you haven't solved the problem, just making it less severe.

It's not about fucking guns, or knives or bombs etc! By the time we REACT it's already too late. We need to prevent the first shot from being ever fired. It's a societal problem on how/why we produce these wack jobs and how we isolate or integrate them into the general population.

Until we figure out how to do that, our greatest hope is to reduce the casualties. I prepare myself for that remote possibility because I can do that, I alone cannot fix society, but I alone can prepare myself for a situation when I am forced protect those around me, my family and myself.

[TFOGGuys]

In all the quoted cases, mass deaths were possibly averted, but people still died. It's like fixing an oil burning engine by adding more oil; you haven't solved the problem, just making it less severe.

It's not about fucking guns, or knives or bombs etc! By the time we REACT it's already too late. We need to prevent the first shot from being ever fired. It's a societal problem on how/why we produce these wack jobs and how we isolate or integrate them into the general population.


I agree 100% that eliminating the need for self defense is the best possible scenario. Realistically, even in a totalitarian police state, there's going to be those that seek to do harm to others. Given a choice, I'd rather see fewer victims, and more dead bad guys.

[bluedogok]

In all the quoted cases, mass deaths were possibly averted, but people still died. It's like fixing an oil burning engine by adding more oil; you haven't solved the problem, just making it less severe.

It's not about fucking guns, or knives or bombs etc! By the time we REACT it's already too late. We need to prevent the first shot from being ever fired. It's a societal problem on how/why we produce these wack jobs and how we isolate or integrate them into the general population.
Wack jobs have been around since the beginning of man, do a search about mass murderers and there are a bunch of them going back to the 1600's. There are some people that just shouldn't be in the general population and no amount of therapy or drugs will change that.

[buddahson]

I am truly devastated for the families of the victims and their community. I cannot think of a worse thing than losing a child. While the killing of another person is always abhorrent, the killing of children is beyond words. Nothing I or anyone can say is going to help make sense of this senseless violence.

We will all need to come to terms with this in our own way. For some this is going to mean pushing for gun control laws. While I enjoy my right to bare arms, I do believe there should be some measures taken to prevent criminals and the mentally ill from acquiring firearms. This does not mean banning firearms but we should be open to discussion of the subject in general.

Personally, I think we should have a deterrent system in place similar to an air marshal. Schools and other public venues should employ a few regular staff who are also highly trained for active shooter type situations. They should not be known to the general public and should be able to carry a weapon or at least have access to one in a nearby safe. These marshals would primarily just do their normal day job as teachers, cashier's, janitors or whatever, but could have a slightly higher pay scale for their training and marshal duties.

[Ghosty]

Like I stated already, in a school where most teachers are liberal-minded will NOT be CCW carriers. The school had security, Lanza shot his way into the building. Putting armed security guards at every elementary and middle/jr.high school is a monumentally expensive task. Look up how many elementary schools there are in America. Out country can't afford that, at least until after our deficit is handled.

In this case anyway, I don't see how more CCW citizens would've prevented this mental case. I'm not for gun control, but I do agree we need to close those big loopholes where defects (and people under 21) like this can easily get their hands on 'em. I'm against banning big mags and certain parts, that never works, dudes will just carry more mags, duh! The Clinton AWB was useless, statistics prove that.

The administration and anti-gun lobby will definitely move to reinstate that thing, I just hope they don't add to it! And local handgun laws have already been proven as useless!

They need a multi-pronged approach to identifying and treating mental illness, that would more than any gun control.

Bad news for the NRA set. Gun-control legislation picking up steam over the weekend...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/16/gun-debate-gains-traction-as-some-lawmakers-say-its-time-to-act/?hpt=hp_t2

[asp_125]

How about we as whole come to terms that the world is dangerous. There is bad people and there is good. How about we help teach our kids the importance of knowing these things. How about we start raising our children to grow up. Now days our kids are never really made to grow up. They are not getting the tough love when they need it. No their hands are being held and then being unleasged into a cold cruel world with no coping skills to deal with it. Is it really surprise that the pc generations are the ones freaking out? We have people who call 911 because a fast food joint got their order wrong.

...

You and I are on the same page. How about we do that. But to wave a glib statement like parents should step up doesn't address the fact that many parents themselves are barely functional. How do you expect a parent drugged up on tranquilizers etc themselves, to raise a normal child. "Wait Johnny, mommy has to take her magic pills before dealing with you" Come on, seriously? If you're barely able to keep it together yourself do we expect you to be a good parent?

I'm certain there are parents who are managing, and more power to them. As well I'm sure there are ones who are trying their hardest to save a child who was born broken. There are success stories, but when parenting fails, the mentally ill need to be analyzed, institutionalized and treated; locked up if necessary instead of given pills and told to go back into society. Yes, that is a slippery slope into Minority Report but what’s the alternative, more shootings? And how much would all of that cost? Are you going to pay for it through more taxes? Through a percentage of gun sales? The way I see it, we'll either have a paranoid society armed to the teeth, or a paranoid one that locks people away.

Here's a question for those wanting a proliferation of guns in schools, so in the event of a shooting it prevents mass murder. So is it acceptable that in the course of a fire fight, that the gunman is neutralized, but that the gunman shoots one child before being killed? Or that stray bullets kill one child but the school was saved. Does collateral damage justify the process?

What if that child was yours? Awww I'm sorry your little girl died, but look on the bright side, we saved the other kids. Changes the stakes of the game doesn't it? Wouldn't you feel helpless if a teacher could not protect your kid while you were at work. And how many half-stable parents would snap and kill a teacher in revenge? It could happen, if you just arm everyone but not treat mental illness, you just have a society of armed nut jobs.

We are all frustrated and grasping at straws. Trying to process the tragedy in our own way. It's sad that there are no moderate solutions, people are polarized in one camp or another. There is no easy and inexpensive answer (in dollar amounts or personal freedoms).

[asp_125]

It's all about the body count and the media glory. Go out in infamy.... fucktards.

[Ghosty]

Hope they look at this, so guess it doesn't matter much, or give them cause to think a Federal AWB really would help? I don't agree:



Connecticut has some of the strictest assault-weapons laws in the country.

Lanza's Mom didn't recognize her son's mental issues, or have they checked into that? She didn't secure her weapons or just bought them for her son, or what have they found?...

[dirkterrell]

Another interesting read:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/15/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

[Ghosty]

This Texan probably speaks for many pro-gunners:



"I wish to God (the principal) had had an M4 in her office, locked up, so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out … and takes him out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids," the Republican from Texas said on "Fox News Sunday."


Right buddy, but how many public school principles are gonna go through training, etc. and agree to this? Doubtful, and HUGE public outcry against. Most parents don't even want armed guards at their schools below inner city public schools.

[Ghosty]

Another interesting read:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/15/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
Wow, hate to sound heartless, but maybe that 13yrd old kid is a prime candidate for at least mild electroshock therapy that is making a comeback, now that they've improved it, made it safer. I'm sure she's already been through multiple psychiatrists, I HOPE, to see all options. Lanza's Mom, who knows... RIP though, from all descriptions she wasn't a bad person, and no one deserves this.

[dirkterrell]

And another:

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=215013

[rforsythe]

Lanza's Mom didn't recognize her son's mental issues, or have they checked into that? She didn't secure her weapons or just bought them for her son, or what have they found?...

His mental health issues were well documented. A store had refused to sell him multiple weapons already that week. His mom and a lot of other people tragically died because she didn't secure them from a mentally unstable person, who essentially stole them to commit his crime. There is no legitimate reason those guns shouldn't have been in a true gun safe that he didn't have the combination to. $600 and the word "no" would have saved a lot of lives.

Bottom line, gun laws did what they were supposed to in this case. This happened because of negligence by a gun owner in the presence of a mentally ill person.

[Ghosty]

Not to spill on her grave, but I agree with that.

People with chlidren and teens need to wake up. If you want to own firearms, be able to afford all the associated training and safeties. Including a gun safe, trigger locks, etc. If for home defense, save up for one of those fingerprint/handprint high-tech handgun safe for your bedroom, or whatever.\

Federal government DOES NEED to close the gunshow loophole, etc.

[Wrider]

Just so you guys know, CO is one of the states that DOES require a background check for anyone buying a gun at a gun show.

[Ghosty]

Gun show loop hole? Ever gun i ever got from a gun show was just like buying from a store. And why does the feds need to be involved? Why not state?
I've only been to a few Tanners here and never bought anything other than books and bulk ammo. So I know only that some states allow you to buy a gun without a background check, and you can easily transport that across state lines. I don't know how many states are like this.

The reason the Feds would be involved to make the law for background checks NATIONAL. Gunners don't want this because the old standard "slippery slope" argument that this will just be a first step to enacting more.

[TFOGGuys]

Just so you guys know, CO is one of the states that DOES require a background check for anyone buying a gun at a gun show.

There IS no gun show loophole in most states. This is a myth perpetuated by the antigun lobbies. :no:

Under Federal law, purchase of a handgun from any person in any state other than your state of residence MUST go through a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL), and requires the same NICS background check and form 4473 as a new gun purchase. Long guns may be purchased in any state, assuming the laws in both states allow it, however if the firearm is shipped from one state to another, all of the above applies. In Colorado, anytime 3 or more vendors are gathered together for the principal business of selling firearms or firearms supplies, buyers must undergo a background check, even if the sale is between 2 private parties not associated with any of the vendors.

[Ghosty]

There IS no gun show loophole in most states. This is a myth perpetuated by the antigun lobbies. :no:
Good to know, thanks.

[Ezzzzy1]

Just wait.... The conspiracy stuff is coming. There are already people 100% convinced that there were 3 shooters, that the dad works for the CIA and there are ties to Aurora.

Cant be hard to believe somethings up when 20 different news channels are reporting 1000 different things all crossing paths and changing by the minute.

Should be interesting

[Rider]

Just wait.... The conspiracy stuff is coming. There are already people 100% convinced that there were 3 shooters, that the dad works for the CIA and there are ties to Aurora.

Cant be hard to believe somethings up when 20 different news channels are reporting 1000 different things all crossing paths and changing by the minute.

Should be interesting

These conspiracy articles and videos are more fun to read than the Sunday colored funnies.

[Rider]

Articles on every thing EJ just said would be involved...he knows too much...

http://www.examiner.com/article/news-reports-of-second-gunman-have-some-saying-connecticut-shooting-cover-up

http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2012/12/how-the-cia-trained-shooter-in-connecticut-shooting-tied-to-european-court-ruling-against-the-cia-2446674.html

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1638.htm

[TFOGGuys]

But why? Why would a conspiracy like this be put into motion? Whats the end game?

Disarming the citizenry. It worked for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others, why not here?

at least that's what the conspiracy theorists believe. http://forums.aria.co.uk/images/smilies/tinfoilhat.gif

Of course, people laughed at the proposition that the antigun lobbies would make a push for massive gun control if Obama got re-elected.

[Ghosty]

Disarming the citizenry. It worked for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and others, why not here?

Of course, people laughed at the proposition that the antigun lobbies would make a push for massive gun control if Obama got re-elected.
As stated many times, NOT gonna happen in America (sans any WW3, huge multiple national disasters at once, martial law, etc.) The whole "out of my cold dead hands" is taken very seriously by half+ of Americans. Full-auto and heavy weaponry is another story, and the strict laws on those are already in place.

Another Federal AWB (including the bigger Mags and other parts) is very likely for our current Senate and POTUS, but not the House, so how would they pass it?

As for Obama's first term, he shelved all gun talk. NOW, he's gonna work on that, along with Immigration, and the budget/spending. Just watch...

[Ezzzzy1]

I have a problem with pro-gun people not admitting that there is a problem with guns. Especially the hardcore pro folks.

Some say its the people some say its the guns, I say its both and honestly there are probably some things that need to be done. Limiting not eliminating.

Get your 30+ rnd mags now... Im betting they are the first to go

[TFOGGuys]

If less guns equals more safety, why are all of our elected representatives protected by people with guns? In the case of the President and most members of the cabinet, their bodyguards carry machine guns which are all but impossible(though not entirely impossible) for the average citizen to obtain. Perhaps they should lead by example, and disarm their guards.

[Ezzzzy1]

More regs? Let history prove it. More regulations hasnt fixed anything. Nothing. Look at cali! Look at chicago. How is regulations going to fix this? Who says this shit can be fixed? Why do we as a human have to fix everything?

Im not sure they would be called regs... Well maybe. There is no reason for anyone to need half the stuff thats available for the high power assault rifles. Yeah, its cool as hell and I have most of it but do I NEED it? No. Who needs 120rd 223 drums :lol: Even limiting the 30rd mags again could change a lot in a situation like this.

Who know but my main point is that really that there is a problem and if it makes people feel better to hear it said a different way, then the problem is with the combination of people and guns. This is going to keep trending up unless something is done and to be honest unless 90% of the population starts carrying its not going to correct itself.

[Ezzzzy1]

If less guns equals more safety, why are all of our elected representatives protected by people with guns? In the case of the President and most members of the cabinet, their bodyguards carry machine guns which are all but impossible(though not entirely impossible) for the average citizen to obtain. Perhaps they should lead by example, and disarm their guards.

Or let us all have Machine guns :headbang:

[TFOGGuys]

Actually you can have them. You just have to make sure you get the paperwork right the first time. The whole process is designed to get people to screw up the paperwork and once they deny you you are done. So its all about getting it right the first time.

Assuming you have the $$$$$$, and can find the weapon you want (manufactured prior to 1986), and are willing to either form a trust, form a corporation, or undergo a proctology exam administered by BATFE, get your local chief of law enforcement to sign off on your Form 4, and wait 7 months for the approval. Pay your $200 for your tax stamp, and have at it. You too can pay $25K for an M-16.

ETA: Most mistakes on Form 1s and Form 4s can be corrected, but it further delays the process.

[koop]

There IS no gun show loophole in most states. This is a myth perpetuated by the antigun lobbies. :no:



Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States

[Ezzzzy1]

It saddens me to see people post things like this. How can you sit here and say those things? What is a ten round mag going to do? Most murders are committed with a hand gun. Ever seen a 150 round mag for a pistol?

The second amendment is not about what the government thinks we need. Its about being able to fight back against a corrupt government. Not for hunting. Not for sport. No self defense against corruption in the highest levels. You just posted about this being some kind of government conspiracy and now you want to give up the few tools that would help you defend you and your family against those same things?


Exactly, whats a 10 round mag going to do? It makes it harder to commit crimes at these volumes that we have been seeing. Im not saying that I dont like my high capacity mags (just ordered 5 more today) but I am saying that in limiting the size of mags they leave the gun limiting alone and for that I am all game.

For what its worth, I generally could give a shit less about one crazy guy killing another crazy guy but thats not what the issue is here. The issue is how does our country make situations like this harder to commit without making people sad that the government is "taking" anything away from them? Im assuming that had these weapons been around when the country was founded that they would have limited parts of them. They were smart people that wrote laws based on what they saw then and in the foreseeable future but stuff like this is way past that.

This may seem like a broken thought but follow me. We have WAAAAY more than what was allowed when this country was founded. How can anyone argue that limiting mags to 10 or 15 rounds (AR) is going the wrong direction when the ultimate goal is to make some type of impact on situations like what just happened.

Lets have a philosophical conversation. Honestly. I am interested in what people think should be done. What changes should be made.

[Ezzzzy1]

Ive seen some around 10k.

Or ej where there is a will there is a way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y02kSUPhGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Yeah, there are a few on the market. All they did was sneak through the loopholes to make these. Again, cool as hell but what does anyone need it for?

What people dont understand is that by answering that question with stuff like "protection" and "in case shit hits the fan", they are only making themselves look paranoid and not prepared.

[laspariahs]

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States


Stop letting facts get in the way.... Seriously.

[Ghosty]

How about this question, to stir the pot.

Is killing 19 kids better than 20 kids? Just curious what you're thoughts are, or just "Tough luck kiddo! There will always be killings!"...

[TFOGGuys]

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States
Interstate purchases of handguns must still go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence, as must any long gun interstate long gun purchase form a private party, regardless if the firearm is shipped. So a person that travels from say, New York to Virginia to purchase a hand gun at a gunshow has just committed a federal felony(39 USC 926 and 927), in addition to violating laws in both states concerning the purchase.

[laspariahs]

How about this question, to stir the pot.

Is killing 19 kids better than 20 kids? Just curious what you're thoughts are, or just "Tough luck kiddo! There will always be killings!"...

I'm sure #20s parent's and #20 themselves would be plenty happy to have survived.

[laspariahs]

Interstate purchases of handguns must still go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence, as must any long gun interstate long gun purchase form a private party, regardless if the firearm is shipped. So a person that travels from say, New York to Virginia to purchase a hand gun at a gunshow has just committed a federal felony(39 USC 926 and 927), in addition to violating laws in both states concerning the purchase.

most (mst)
adj. Superlative of many, much.
1.
a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.
2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
n.
1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain.
2. Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most!
pron.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The greatest part or number: Most of the town was destroyed. Most of the books were missing.
adv. Superlative of much.
1. In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently.
2. Very: a most impressive piece of writing.
3. Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.

[TFOGGuys]

Exactly, whats a 10 round mag going to do? It makes it harder to commit crimes at these volumes that we have been seeing.

The killers at Columbine used magazines with 10 or less rounds capacity.

[laspariahs]

The killers at Columbine used magazines with 10 or less rounds capacity.

I agree, we should only allow bolt action rifles, and single shot pistols.

Man finally someone on here that has it together.

[asp_125]

I'm sure our founding fathers never considered full autos and 150rd magazines when they drafted the second amendment. If you limit high capacity magazines you at least give a defender a chance to fire back when they have to reload. Plus you still get to keep your precious assault weapons.

[asp_125]

I agree, we should only allow bolt action rifles, and single shot pistols.

Man finally someone on here that has it together.

Nah! Muzzle loading muskets!

[TFOGGuys]

most (mst)
adj. Superlative of many, much.
1.
a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.
b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.
2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
n.
1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain.
2. Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most!
pron.
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The greatest part or number: Most of the town was destroyed. Most of the books were missing.
adv. Superlative of much.
1. In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently.
2. Very: a most impressive piece of writing.
3. Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.

Math fail. Mea Culpa.

Regardless, most purchases that the antigun folks are claiming fall through the "loophole" are flat illegal under existing Federal law. Convicted felons and other prohibited persons buying at a gunshow? Illegal. These same people having someone buy the weapon for them? Illegal. Falsifying documents(4473) to complete a sale? Illegal. Interstate purchases of a handgun at a gun show, without shipping to and processing the sale through an FFL in the buyer's home state? Illegal. Habitual users of alcohol or drugs(including MMJ) purchasing a firearm? Illegal. Colorado's CBI check denied over 3000 purchases last year, yet not one of these prospective purchasers was prosecuted for the violation of federal law, which provides for up to 10 years in prison and a $250K fine.

The bottom line: Current laws aren't being enforced, and more laws won't make any difference, except to the law abiding. Criminals will continue to ignore the law.

[Ezzzzy1]

The killers at Columbine used magazines with 10 or less rounds capacity.

And the amount of people shot at Columbine (by two gunmen) was 13.

There would be virtually no way to argue that low capacity saved lives there. In other words it is guaranteed that if both Columbine gunmen had 30 round clips more people would have died.

[rforsythe]

I'm sure our founding fathers never considered full autos and 150rd magazines when they drafted the second amendment. If you limit high capacity magazines you at least give a defender a chance to fire back when they have to reload. Plus you still get to keep your precious assault weapons.

I'm guessing the founding fathers anticipated that gun technology would improve over time, as it had for them, and that citizens should have reasonable means to arm themselves against a tyrannical regime should it ever occur (which is the purpose of the 2nd amendment).

Out of curiosity, what mass shootings have happened with full-auto weapons and 150rd magazines? I submit that a shooter that actually knows how to use a gun can do significant damage with relatively few well-placed rounds, particularly in a place like a school where there is near-zero chance of anyone actually shooting back for quite a while.

[laspariahs]

And the amount of people shot at Columbine (by two gunmen) was 13.

There would be virtually no way to argue that low capacity saved lives there. In other words it is guaranteed that if both Columbine gunmen had 30 round clips more people would have died.

30 rounds are for pussies: http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/high-capacity-magazines.html

I need at least 100 rounds to shoot at paper targets.

[Ezzzzy1]

I use mine for hunting. I can shoot a 223 and against everything that is told in the media its a great round for hunting. Im getting into hunting mountain lion and bobcat. Sure little bobcats mean nothing. A mountain lion? That can kill you. I carry my rifle whenever im scouting for tracks and a ten roynd mag doesnt sound appealing to me.


Then buy some 30rd mags now and you will be good later (when they ban them). They will, watch.

Fucking mountain lions with an AR :silly: Id like to see what the percentage of Americans doing that is. If its higher than 1% then you win the high capacity argument

[TFOGGuys]

I thought the aurora guy had the drum for the ar but it jammed or something.

Indeed. Most of his victims were killed with a pump shotgun.

[laspariahs]

Then buy some 30rd mags now and you will be good later (when they ban them). They will, watch.

Fucking mountain lions with an AR :silly: Id like to see what the percentage of Americans doing that is. If its higher than 1% then you win the high capacity argument

Dude what are you talking about, I regurally shoot mountain lions with my 100 round capacity AR-15 with night vision scope.

[laspariahs]

I thought the aurora guy had the drum for the ar but it jammed or something.

Yeah, then he switched to one of the other high capacity semiautomatic guns he was carrying.

[koop]

Interstate purchases of handguns must still go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence, as must any long gun interstate long gun purchase form a private party, regardless if the firearm is shipped. So a person that travels from say, New York to Virginia to purchase a hand gun at a gunshow has just committed a federal felony(39 USC 926 and 927), in addition to violating laws in both states concerning the purchase.

Well sure, if you want to define one thing as something else and then say it doesn't exist, I guess we can do that.

[Ezzzzy1]

And the age of the shooters? Didnt they get the guns by illegal means? Also can you tell me where to buy pipe bombs legally? Sure theirs failed to work but they still had them.

Still saying that if they had high capacity clips more people would have died.

[laspariahs]

Still saying that if they had high capacity clips more people would have died.

Plus they just got them from people who purchased them legally. So if they weren't available legally it's safe to assume.....

[TFOGGuys]

Well sure, if you want to define one thing as something else and then say it doesn't exist, I guess we can do that.

My point is that most of the things that the antigun crowd are complaining about happening at gun shows are ALREADY illegal under federal law. But much like immigration violations, nobody is ever prosecuted. :no:

[Ezzzzy1]

Your high bro. Tgose kids had all the time in the world to reload repeatedly. If they had the knowledge that leos wernt going to breach right away they would have killed more. They walked around and killed at will. Even with cops on scene. Wasnt it like 40 minutes before cops even went in?

So how do you figure bigger mags would have killed more? Because they had been on such a time crunch and couldnt reload fast enough? Not only was there more hen one shooter they had multiple firearms. The only reason the count was as low as it was is because they finished when they wanted to. Not because of anything else. Plus if they can make bombs im sure they have other means of gitting other things.

Then lets change it to COULD have killed more.

Fuckit. I say we dont limit capacity, mostly because of Toms hunting needs :lol:

Lets say that its inevitable that someone will go into a place and the sole goal will be to kill as many people as possible. Would you rather they have 10, 10 round clips or one 100 round clip?

[Ezzzzy1]

Doesnt matter what i would rather them have. They will have what they want and no laws will change rhat.

Why dont you answer me this. Why do we have to punish society as a whole for what makes up less then 1% of issues?

I cant believe anyone would feel "punished" by reducing the amount clips can hold?

[laspariahs]

Doesnt matter what i would rather them have. They will have what they want and no laws will change rhat.

Why dont you answer me this. Why do we have to punish society as a whole for what makes up less then 1% of issues?

Hey if 20 kids have to randomly die for me to own a 100 round hunting rifle with NV Scope, 15 round pistol and of course the KelTec KSG 12+1 capacity shotty well that's just how it's gotta be!

[Ezzzzy1]

Hey if 20 kids have to randomly die for me to own a 100 round hunting rifle with NV Scope, 15 round pistol and of course the KelTec KSG 12+1 capacity shotty well that's just how it's gotta be!

:lol:

Merica! Fuck yeah!

[laspariahs]

Okay guys why dont you answer me what the definition of the Second Amendment is? What is the point of the Second Amendment? Stop trying to troll me and answer the questions. What part of shall not be infringed upon can you guys not grasp?


AMENDMENT II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


I don't think that Townie here is in a well regulated militia.

[laspariahs]

My answer to thatvis why are those 20 kids left defenseless? I think it's quite clear that these gun free zones are big targets.

I agree we should arm the children. 1 glock and 1 keltec per child.

[koop]

I once did a line with an illegal immigrant named Juan. Obviously immigration and drug laws don't work. We should do away with them.

[Ezzzzy1]

Okay guys why dont you answer me what the definition of the Second Amendment is? What is the point of the Second Amendment? Stop trying to troll me and answer the questions. What part of shall not be infringed upon can you guys not grasp?

What the 2nd ammendment was intented to be and what it is now are two totally different things.

What exactly is the "definition" of the Second Amendment Tom?

[Ezzzzy1]

Ej grow up will you. This has already been gone ocer by more people then me. Against what YOU want i would to keep this civil. Im not going to troll you in this thread. Honestly with the death of the children its sad that you would want to turn this into one of our shit threads that always ends with you looking just as dumb as me.

Ive answered your posts with repect and links to back up what im saying. Try doing the same. Answer my posts. If you can.

1. If gun control works why hasn't it?
2. Why should the american public be penalized for actions that make up less then 1% of the overall problem?
3. Why do the numbers show that cities with less restrictions on firearms have lower crime rates but in cities with higher restrictions the crime rate higher?

How you are able to do this to every conversation is beyond me. I was just asking you for your definition. I have no idea where this stuff comes from. We go from having a fairly decent conversation to you going for my throat. You really are a weird mofoe. Capeable of knowing everything except how to have a decent conversation in a forum.

Every time I answer any of your questions you bring more and more and more and more irrelevant stuff up until there is nothing left. I have no problem answering your question but just wanted to hear what you had to say.

Honestly with the death of the children its fairly disgusting to me that you would say there is nothing that needs to be done because you already know that nothing will work.

You waste ever decent thread for no reason at all. Actually, I take that back. Its for your own selfish enjoyment. Its who you are. A troll.

Respond away. Out of respect to this thread I have said all I will say to you.

[TransNone13]

Truth is, unless you have moral military and civil authorities (Oath Keepers for example) willing to lay down their weapons when directed to infringe upon civilians etc, the public at large stands no chance. IMO, our government is beyond corrupt and beyond repair. I think I can fairly continue to to say by and large our society is corrupt and morally bankrupt. Not to mention cowards; there are sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves.

But I still stand my ability to defend myself, I would rather never see a cop and be able to defend myself then be at their mercy.

[asp_125]

You know, I think if the second amendment allowing us to bear arms (in case of rising against tyranny) which include assault weapons - we should go all the way and allow grenade launchers, bazookas, ground to air missiles and yes including tactical nukes. Because that's what I'm hearing. If you are saying truly unrestricted access to weapons that must be all inclusive; none of this halfway shit.

[TransNone13]

This is why I hate the magazine argument. This guy isn't even the fastest and watch him reload std mags. Pipe dreams people. Just need a little practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

[The Black Knight]

This is why I hate the magazine argument. This guy isn't even the fastest and watch him reload std mags. Pipe dreams people. Just need a little practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

Dude that's called "sleight of hand" it's a perk you can choose :D

[birchyboy]

5 points to Townie for the most quotes in a row. 3 points to Ezzzy for being the most quoted.

[TransNone13]

Dude that's called "sleight of hand" it's a perk you can choose :D

lol nice

[Ezzzzy1]

5 points to Townie for the most quotes in a row. 3 points to Ezzzy for being the most quoted.

Again, I loose to Townie and his masterfullness. Damit.


.

[dirkterrell]

It's starting to become clearer that this young man suffered from schizophrenia. According to his uncle, he was taking Fanapt, a drug use to treat schizophrenia:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/aspergers-is-a-red-herring-to-explain-newtown.html

In light of the earlier article I posted by the woman with a 13-year-old son with mental health issues, and her frustration with being unable to find the right help for him, it's pretty clear that we need to view these mass killings not in the tired old rhetoric about guns, gun control, magazine sizes, assault weapons, etc. but in how we deal with illnesses that lead people to commit them.

[Ghosty]

In light of the earlier article I posted by the woman with a 13-year-old son with mental health issues, and her frustration with being unable to find the right help for him, it's pretty clear that we need to view these mass killings not in the tired old rhetoric about guns, gun control, magazine sizes, assault weapons, etc. but in how we deal with illnesses that lead people to commit them.
100% AGREE.

[asp_125]

Since Columbine, there has been at least 179 school shootings according to this article.

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2012/12/newtown_columbine_school_shootings_list.php

Each time, the libs cry for a ban to guns, the right replies "out of our cold dead hands". Each time the paranoia and rhetoric has not resulted in a cessation of these incidents. Neither side is willing to compromise some of their freedoms or rights towards any sort of solution. Nothing changes, the arrogance and ignorance of both sides leads me to think nothing will change this time either. Don't you think after all these incidents that perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree? That perhaps the problem lies elsewhere? People disgust me.

[Ghosty]

Oh great, ANOTHER multiple murder/suicide, in LONGMONT now, last night?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/sad.gif

http://www.9news.com/news/article/305609/71/5-dead-in-murder-suicide-in-Weld-County




LONGMONT - A man shot three people before turning the gun on himself in this rural area northwest of Denver early Tuesday morning, investigators say. A 911 operator received a call at about 4 a.m. from a woman who blurted out the address of a home in the 400-space LongView mobile home park, investigators say.

"The dispatcher heard 'No, no, no,' and then gunshots," Sgt. Tim Schwartz with the Weld County Sheriff's Office said. "A male party then picks up the phone and says he's going to kill himself. The dispatcher hears another gunshot."

Deputies raced to the trailer home where they found two men and two women dead inside. The gunshots woke neighbor Manuel Nunez, 58, who ran into the living room to see what had happened. Nunez's home backs onto an open lot across the street from the cream-colored mobile home where the shooting happened.

"I heard pop, pop, pop," Nunez said. "I looked out the window but I didn't see nothing."
Schwartz says investigators are still seeking a motive and the identities of the four dead. He says more information about the incident would be released later today.

"It's heartbreaking," he said. "It's just tough all the way around."

http://www.9news.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/305612/Still1218_00033.jpg

[asp_125]

Right now I wish the Mayans are correct, we just hit the reset button on Friday and let the cockroaches take over.

[Ghosty]

So see you already have what you want.
Guess Virginia wasn't one of those?...


Law enforcement has also told me that the single most effective thing we can do to prevent gun violence would be to require all purchasers for all gun sales to undergo a background check. Then-Gov. Tim Kaine appointed a panel of experts to investigate all aspects of the massacre and report back their recommendations. Recommendation VI-2 stated, "Virginia should require background checks for all firearms sales." Sadly, that hasn't happened, and gun deaths now outpace motor vehicle deaths in my state.

[Ghosty]

Yes, looks like some "nicer" double-wides or modular homes.

Side-note from Connecticut. At least the LEO's there are taking shit seriously...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/justice/connecticut-shooting-copycat-threats/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

[Ghosty]

Lordy day... *sigh*

I was referencing my post that said a Federal law saying ALL states should require background check. YOU replied "You already got what you want". I replied "ORLY?", by linking that Virginia Tech article. Not sure where the confusion lies. And YES I've bought guns and ammo at stores, and books and ammo at Tanner shows.

*spoon fed now*
Does that help? Not trying to make you look bad or one-up or anything, just passing along information... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/hatsoff.gif

[Ghosty]

Another interesting read:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/15/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
And another related article from a Mom of a defective teen, the "Anarchist Soccor Mom's Blog":

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connecticut-shooting-anarchist-soccer-mom/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Only this one was brave enough to finally commit her kid, BEFORE something like this could get outta hand. Lanza's Mom ALLOWED him to pursue guns and shooting as a frickin' HOBBY! Even after all the warning signs, WTF?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/SpectralCat/Emoticons/facepalm.gif

Side-notes: Cerberus Investment group selling Bushmaster company now. Investment strategy not in line with another key Teachers union retirement investment platform:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/18/news/cerberus-bushmaster/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Dicks Sporting Goods to drop sales of certain semi-auto rifles:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/justice/connecticut-dicks-guns/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

No opinion, just find this interesting:


This year, the NRA spent $17 million on federal elections. It's a considerable amount when compared to the size of the industry. Annual gun sales in the U.S. total about $3.5 billion, according to estimates from Wedbush Securities analyst Rommel Dionisio.

Compared to that, Goldman Sachs (GS (http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=GS&source=story_quote_link), Fortune 500 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/snapshots/10777.html?iid=EL))' corporate political action committee and employees spent a total of $7.5 million on candidates running in the November election. The investment bank raked in $29 billion last year.

[rapparee]

"Funny how they can't seem to point out any other places where those hack framers fucked up the wording."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YY5Rj4cQ50

[dirkterrell]

Since Columbine, there has been at least 179 school shootings according to this article.


That's a very misleading statement. Reading through them, some are plots to commit a school shooting, one was a student walking to school, another a shooting at a party "near" a university campus, one at a school board meeting, and some were suicides. And that's just the first couple of pages. Many of these were young kids bringing guns to school as curiosity items and the gun went off accidentally. As gun owners, that is the sort of situation that we can and should prevent.



Each time, the libs cry for a ban to guns, the right replies "out of our cold dead hands". Each time the paranoia and rhetoric has not resulted in a cessation of these incidents. Neither side is willing to compromise some of their freedoms or rights towards any sort of solution. Nothing changes, the arrogance and ignorance of both sides leads me to think nothing will change this time either. Don't you think after all these incidents that perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree? That perhaps the problem lies elsewhere? People disgust me.

Well, as I mentioned above, lumping all of these into "school shootings" contributes to the obfuscation of the problems and solutions, and that is usually for political purposes. For these mass murders, it's clear that mental illness, and our failure to address it adequately as a society, plays a crucial role in their happening. And until we address that, rather than the red herring of guns, magazine size, etc, they will continue to occur.

[Ghosty]

Nothing taken personal, I've been on the Internet since 300-baud modems, which leads to a thicker skin than the average layman. All good.

[Ghosty]

Did you even know about thise actions taken to fix things? So again you already have what you want.
I'm just going by this snippit, if it's incorrect then my bad, maybe outdated:



Law enforcement has also told me that the single most effective thing we can do to prevent gun violence would be to require all purchasers for all gun sales to undergo a background check. Then-Gov. Tim Kaine appointed a panel of experts to investigate all aspects of the massacre and report back their recommendations. Recommendation VI-2 stated, "Virginia should require background checks for all firearms sales." Sadly, that hasn't happened, and gun deaths now outpace motor vehicle deaths in my state.


So if there are states left that do not require background check (I have no idea if and how many), then that what's I think would be good progress, at least a start. If it was up to me, I'd say eff gunshow sales retailers, do everything through FFL's and require full background checks, and that isn't a strange radical socialist request. If it was up to the NRA, you could buy guns and ammo at 7-11.

[rforsythe]

So if there are states left that do not require background check (I have no idea if and how many), then that what's I think would be good progress, at least a start. If it was up to me, I'd say fuck gunshow sales retailers, do everything through FFL's and require full background checks, and that isn't a strange radical socialist request.

I don't have a problem with requiring checks at gun shows. As has been pointed out, that already happens in a number of states. As for other checks, any time you buy a new gun from an FFL dealer, you put a check in - that is a federal requirement for them to be an FFL.


If it was up to the NRA, you could buy guns and ammo at 7-11.

If it's a private seller and you're in the parking lot, you can already at least in CO. ;)

Perhaps one acceptable compromise would be to fill out a background check online, minus any gun serials. If you're eligible, a private seller could log in and check your "eligibility report" through a federal site to ensure you should be able to own a gun. No S/N's are being exchanged so no tracking of guns, people can still buy and sell, and it *may* help keep them away from people who shouldn't have them. I'd also support laws mandating locked storage any time a gun is kept in the same location as children under 12 or someone with a history of mental instability, regardless of age. Said person should not have the combination or key.

Look, something is coming that is going to restrict what we can do. AWB's, background checks, registration, I dunno, but there is no way it will remain as it is today. Gun owners either entertain the conversation and determine a reasonable compromise, or they will be outvoted by emotional people.

My main concerns (as a responsible gun owner and gun rights advocate) are weapons of any kind getting in the hands of someone who shouldn't have them. So close the legal channels allowing it and prevent people from making them accessible otherwise, without blocking people like me from owning/shooting whatever I want to. The compromise should affect the ones committing the crimes, without unreasonably restricting the rights of others.

To think no change will happen is just plain denial. Get over it and work to find a common ground that still lets you buy and shoot what you like.

[asp_125]

Funny, I seem to read that the guns used in this case were all purchased legally and correctly by someone who by all accounts, had the right to have them as an avid gun collector. Sadly she is dead now and can't comment. So perhaps by extension, the background check needs to include records of any family members who are mentally unstable, on mood altering meds etd. Let's see how well that works out. Where are the laws if a gun owner fails to adequately restrict access to weapons AFTER the sale is completed?

[Snowman]

Always a big fan when rednecks panic and start digging up their buried mason jars to boost the local economy... :up:

The Sandy Hook Effect: Gun Sales Rise as Stocks Fall (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100325110)

"Anecdotal evidence suggests that gun enthusiasts are moving quickly to purchase new weapons – even as the prospect of tougher laws has sent the shares of several gun manufacturers plunging.

Private equity firm Cerberus says it will sell its investment in gun-maker, Freedom Group, in response to the elementary school shooting in Connecticut last week, with CNBC's Mary Thompson.
A spike in gun sales across the country started with President Barack Obama's reelection. Observers note that may be associated with the traditionally contentious relationship the Democratic Party has with the gun rights lobby. (Read more: Gun Sales Surge: An Obama Bounce?) Some Second Amendment advocates fear the Connecticut tragedy will provide more impetus to efforts to restrict gun ownership.

Yet in places like Colorado, Ohio and Oregon, local reports have noted a surge in gun purchases occurring immediately after the Sandy Hook tragedy."

[Ghosty]

I don't have a problem with requiring checks at gun shows. As has been pointed out, that already happens in a number of states. As for other checks, any time you buy a new gun from an FFL dealer, you put a check in - that is a federal requirement for them to be an FFL.
Yes, I'm flexible in my vew if the gun show dealers are FFL, and require background checks. This would require the gunshow venue to provide enough adequate and secure telcom services for these folks. Side-note, the last Tanner I went to, an actual gun WENT OFF. You never saw a warehouse full of people go quiet SO FAST. Wow, interesting, I must say... *facepalm*

RUN ON 30round MAGAZINES. Hahahaa, you knew this was coming! Already out of stock, as of today anyway. Magpul black 30round 5.56/.223 Magazines with window. P-Mag/MOE, some are gen2, some gen3...

BravoCompany
SurplessAmmo
GanderMountain Online
PatriotOutfitters

In stock, YLMV: (your luck may vary...)

MidwayUSA (limit TWO mags per person)
LaRue Tactical
Intense Tactical
Spikes Tactical
OfficerStore
MississippiAutoArms
RockRiverArms (no window version)
BotachTactical

And fuck CheaperThanDirt.com, price gouging. They've increased prices on theirs to $60 a pop! What jackasses.

[TFOGGuys]

Yes, I'm flexible in my vew if the gun show dealers are FFL, and require background checks. This would require the gunshow venue to provide enough adequate and secure telcom services for these folks.

RUN ON 30round MAGAZINES. Hahahaa, you knew this was coming! Already out of stock, as of today anyway. Magpul black 30round 5.56/.223 Magazines with window. P-Mag/MOE, some are gen2, some gen3...

BravoCompany
SurplessAmmo
GanderMountain Online
PatriotOutfitters

In stock, YLMV: (your luck may vary...)

MidwayUSA (limit TWO mags per person)
LaRue Tactical
Intense Tactical
Spikes Tactical
OfficerStore
MississippiAutoArms
RockRiverArms (no window version)

And fuck CheaperThanDirt.com, price gouging. They've increased prices on theirs to $60 a pop! What jackasses.

CtD has removed all guns from their website. Plus, they are gouging on what accessory inventory they still have. Jackasses.

[Ghosty]

You better believe you aint gonna be able to buy these things anymore, LOL!:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/M16-Beta-C-Mag-p/beta%20c-mag%20system%20m16%20xv.htm

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/Beta%20C-MAG%20System%20M16%20XV-2T.jpg

[TFOGGuys]

You better believe you aint gonna be able to buy these things anymore, LOL!:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/M16-Beta-C-Mag-p/beta%20c-mag%20system%20m16%20xv.htm

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/Beta%20C-MAG%20System%20M16%20XV-2T.jpg

I've never seen one that would run. those jam-o-matic pieces of shit make an AR into the safest rifle in history...

[rforsythe]

Funny, I seem to read that the guns used in this case were all purchased legally and correctly by someone who by all accounts, had the right to have them as an avid gun collector. Sadly she is dead now and can't comment. So perhaps by extension, the background check needs to include records of any family members who are mentally unstable, on mood altering meds etd. Let's see how well that works out. Where are the laws if a gun owner fails to adequately restrict access to weapons AFTER the sale is completed?

Hence my proposal that if you live in a home with someone of questionable mental stability (or, say in the case of the Sandy shooter, a lifetime of documented mental illness), you be required to keep your weapons locked in a gun cabinet or safe, in such a way that they do not have the combination or key to open it.

The shooter couldn't buy them legally (apparently refused the b/g check -- I can only theorize he would have failed it), so he went to the one place he knew he'd have access to whatever he wanted - mommy's guns. Like I said before, locking them up properly and not giving him access would have prevented this whole thing.

[Ezzzzy1]

www.botachtactical.com still has pmags and cheap. FYI

[Ghosty]

CNN news alert just now: NRA first statement: "We are prepared to help make sure this never happens again."

More to come...

I like it, but Obama needs to not pander to his socialist Dem far-lefties in congress, and WORK WITH LA'PIERRE, or at least Republican gun-advocates too.

[asp_125]

Hence my proposal that if you live in a home with someone of questionable mental stability (or, say in the case of the Sandy shooter, a lifetime of documented mental illness), you be required to keep your weapons locked in a gun cabinet or safe, in such a way that they do not have the combination or key to open it.

The shooter couldn't buy them legally (apparently refused the b/g check -- I can only theorize he would have failed it), so he went to the one place he knew he'd have access to whatever he wanted - mommy's guns. Like I said before, locking them up properly and not giving him access would have prevented this whole thing.


Live with someone of questionable stability ... or have a best friend (of questionable stability) ... or relative.. or next door neighbor... any of whom can gain access to a house whether or not you happen to be home.

Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.

Why not treat/ get rid of/ isolate the people who are unstable? I would think the pro gun lobby would be first to get behind that idea, rather than jump through hoops to own a gun.

[Ghosty]

Makes home defense a pain in the ass if you can't afford those nifty fingerprint/handprint electric handgun safe gizmos...

[asp_125]

i see the talk of dealing with the mentally ill lasted long. lol

'xactly.. I don't care what you do to the retards, just don't take away mah guns! Cus this is 'merica! :wtf: Now you see why nothing's going to get done? Same old song and dance.. every frickin time. When is someone going to step up and say enough?

[Ghosty]

NRA Press release:


"The National Rifle Association of America is made up of 4 million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.

"Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.

"The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.

"The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, D.C., area on Friday, December 21."

[asp_125]

We already have a solution.. guns encoded to their owner's palm print.
http://cdn.pocket-lint.com/images/GZgm/new-james-bond-skyfall-trailer-0.jpg?20120731-162753
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/46730/new-james-bond-skyfall-trailer

[Ezzzzy1]

I really surprised (no im not) by the people that think anyone on here is saying that guns need to go away. Anyone with a brain knows thats not even humanly possible in America :dunno: So crazy how wicked fast gun loons jump to that conclusion anytime someone says anything about guns.

What I can appreciate is the people that are willing to say that this at least need to be looked at.

I would bet that the NRA will fold on a few issues quick just to save the "guns". IE large capacity clips etc.

[CaptGoodvibes]

Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.

IIRC, in California, you can be held liable if someone gains access to your gun and it does not have a trigger lock. Personally, I think a trigger lock is too much of a handicap but a discrete one-gun safe bolted just out of sight is simultaneously, as comprehensive and more handy than a gun locked at the trigger.

[CaptGoodvibes]

you could always use your gun to hit them with it.
The one time in my life I needed a gun, all I had was a Mag-Light.

[TFOGGuys]

Live with someone of questionable stability ... or have a best friend (of questionable stability) ... or relative.. or next door neighbor... any of whom can gain access to a house whether or not you happen to be home.

Where does it stop? Why not require ALL gun owners to lock up their guns? Keep guns and ammo in separate locations.

Why not treat/ get rid of/ isolate the people who are unstable? I would think the pro gun lobby would be first to get behind that idea, rather than jump through hoops to own a gun.
Or we could be like the UK was before they pretty much banned all private ownership of hand guns and rifles. You can "own" a gun, but it has to be stored at a "gun club". You can't remove them from the club's premises, you can't use it for hunting or self protection, you can't sell it to anyone other than the club, you can't possess ammo outside the club. The only time you are allowed to use it is for target practice or competitive events.

Of course, when the UK went for the full on ban on handguns, this made them very convenient to confiscate. except from the criminals, who never paid any attention to the law in the first place.

[laspariahs]

Or we could be like the UK was before they pretty much banned all private ownership of hand guns and rifles. You can "own" a gun, but it has to be stored at a "gun club". You can't remove them from the club's premises, you can't use it for hunting or self protection, you can't sell it to anyone other than the club, you can't possess ammo outside the club. The only time you are allowed to use it is for target practice or competitive events.

Of course, when the UK went for the full on ban on handguns, this made them very convenient to confiscate. except from the criminals, who never paid any attention to the law in the first place.

And they have had 3 school shootings in the last 30 years.

Here's our list in the last 30 years:
Deer Creek Middle School shooting Littleton, Colorado April 7 1982 1
Parkway South Middle School shooting Manchester, Missouri January 20 1983 2 Suicide
Goddard Middle School shooting Goddard, Kansas January 21 1985 1
Portland Junior High School shooting Portland, Connecticut December 10 1985 1
Pine Forest Senior High School Fayetteville, North Carolina May 6 1986
Pinellas Park High School Largo, Florida February 11 1988 1
Hubbard Woods School shooting Winnetka, Illinois May 20 1988 1
Atlantic Shores Christian School shooting Chesapeake, Virginia December 16 1988 1
Cleveland School massacre Stockton, California January 17 1989 6 Suicide
University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa November 1 1991 6 Suicide
Lindhurst High School shooting Olivehurst, California May 1 1992 4
Palo Duro High School shooting Amarillo, Texas September 11 1992 0
Berkner High School shooting Richardson, Texas November 6 1992 1
Edward Tilden High School shooting Chicago, Illinois November 20 1992 1
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts December 14 1992 2
East Carter High School shooting Grayson, Kentucky January 18 1993 2
Fairfax High School shooting Los Angeles, California January 21 1993 1
Amityville High School shooting Amityville, New York February 1 1993 1
Reseda High School shooting Reseda, California February 22 1993 1
Wauwatosa West High School shooting Wauwatosa, Wisconsin December 1 1993 1
Central Middle School shooting Sheridan, Wyoming September 17 1993 1
Margaret Leary Elementary School shooting Butte, Montana April 12 1994 1
Grimsley High School shooting Greensboro, North Carolina October 12 1994 1
Wickliffe Middle School shooting Wickliffe, Ohio November 7 1994 1
Blackville-Hilda High School shooting Blackville, South Carolina October 12 1995 2
Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee November 15 1995 2
Frontier Middle School shooting Moses Lake, Washington February 2 1996 3
Hamilton High School shooting Scottdale, Georgia February 2 1996 1
San Diego State University shooting San Diego, California August 15 1996 3
Hetzel Union Building shooting State College, Pennsylvania September 17 1996 1
Bethel Regional High School shooting Bethel, Alaska February 19 1997 2
Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi October 1 1997 2
Heath High School shooting Paducah, Kentucky December 1 1997 3
Westside Middle School shooting Jonesboro, Arkansas March 24 1998 5
Parker Middle School dance shooting1 Edinboro, Pennsylvania April 24 1998 1
Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon May 21 1998 2
Columbine High School massacre Littleton, Colorado April 20 1999 15 Suicide
Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia May 20 1999 0
Fort Gibson Middle School shooting Fort Gibson, Oklahoma December 6 1999 0
Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan February 29 2000 1
Lake Worth Middle School shooting Lake Worth, Florida May 26 2000 1
University of Arkansas shooting Fayetteville, Arkansas August 28 2000 2 [46][47][48]
Santana High School shooting Santee, California March 5 2001 2
Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California March 22 2001 0
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School shooting Manhattan, New York City, New York January 15 2002 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia January 16 2002 3
University of Arizona Nursing School shooting Tucson, Arizona October 28 2002 4
John McDonogh High School shooting New Orleans, Louisiana April 14 2003 1
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio May 9 2003 1 [57]
Rocori High School shooting Cold Spring, Minnesota September 24 2003 2
Columbia High School shooting East Greenbush, New York February 9 2004 0
Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting Florham Park, New Jersey April 4 2004 [58]
Randallstown High School shooting Randallstown, Maryland May 7 2004 0
Red Lake Senior High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota March 21 2005 8 Suicide
Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School shooting[59] Essex, Vermont August 24 2006 2
Orange High School shooting Hillsborough, North Carolina August 30 2006 1
Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado September 27 2006 2
Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29 2006 2
Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania October 2 2006 6
Henry Foss High School shooting Tacoma, Washington January 3 2007 1
Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan March 8 2007 1
University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, North Carolina March 24 2007 0[60]
University of Washington shooting Seattle, Washington April 2 2007 2
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia April 16 2007 33 Suicide
Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University massacre DeKalb, Illinois February 14 2008 6
Davidson High School Shooting Mobile, Alabama March 9 2008 1
Central High School shooting Knoxville, Tennessee August 21 2008 1
Henry Ford High School shooting Detroit, Michigan October 16 2008 1
2008 University of Central Arkansas shootings Conway, Arkansas October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School shooting Fort Lauderdale, Florida November 12 2008 1 [61]
Henry Ford Community College shooting Dearborn, Michigan April 10 2009 2
Hampton University Hampton, Virginia April 26 2009 0
Covina High School shooting Covina, California April 30 2009 0[62]
Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut May 1 2009 1
Canandaigua Academy shooting Canandaigua, New York May 5 2009 1
Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts May 18 2009 1 [63]
Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana May 18 2009 1
Skyline College shooting San Bruno, California September 2 2009 0
Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia September 3 2009 1 [64]
Deer Valley High School shooting Antioch, California September 16 2009 0
Northern Virginia Community College Woodbridge, Virginia December 8 2009 0
Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama February 5 2010 1[65]
University of Alabama in Huntsville Huntsville, Alabama February 12 2010 3[66]
Deer Creek Middle School Littleton, Colorado February 23 2010 0[67]
Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington February 26 2010 1[68]
Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio March 9 2010 2[69]
Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois August 17 2010 1[70]
University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas September 28 2010 1[71]
Alisal High School Salinas, California October 1 2010 1[72][73]
Mid-Atlantic Christian University Elizabeth City, North Carolina October 3 2010 1[74]
Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California October 8 2010 0*[75][76]
Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin November 29 2010 1[77]
Millard South High School shooting Omaha, Nebraska, United States January 5 2011 2[78]
Martinsville West Middle School Martinsville, Indiana March 25 2011 0[79]
Worthing High School Houston, Texas March 30 2011 1[80]
Ross Elementary School Houston, Texas April 19 2011 0[81]
San Jose State University San Jose, California May 10 2011 3[82]
Pearl City Middle School Pearl City, Hawaii May 23 2011 1[83]
Cape Fear High School shooting Fayetteville, North Carolina October 24 2011 0[84]
2011 Virginia Tech shooting Blacksburg, Virginia December 8 2011 2 [85]
Walpole Elementary School Walpole, New Hampshire February 10 2012 1 (injury) [86]
Chardon High School shooting Chardon, Ohio February 27 2012 3
Oikos University shooting Oakland, California April 2 2012 7
Perry Hall High School Perry Hall, Maryland August 27 2012 1
Normal Community High School Normal, Illinois September 7 2012 0
Stillwater Junior High School Stillwater, Oklahoma September 26 2012 1 (suicide)
Bennion Junior High School Taylorsville, Utah November 29 2012 1 ( suicide) [87]
Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting Newtown, Connecticut December 14 2012 27 Suicide

[TFOGGuys]

We already have a solution.. guns encoded to their owner's palm print.
http://cdn.pocket-lint.com/images/GZgm/new-james-bond-skyfall-trailer-0.jpg?20120731-162753
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/46730/new-james-bond-skyfall-trailer

And what happens when you get shot in your strong hand and have to fire the gun with your other hand?

I realize you're being facetious, but like many other "safety" options, biometrics are not the answer, nor are secret combinations, nor RFID chips. The answer is criminal control, not gun control.

[TFOGGuys]

And they have had 3 school shootings in the last 30 years.

And how many knife murders?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/creche-massacre-knifeman-leaves-children-372713

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/robert-farago/uk-six-knife-murders-per-week/


The latest figures show knife deaths have almost doubled in the last 30 years. The total is up 58 on two years ago and 80 more than in the last year of Tory rule. There are also 60 non-fatal knife crimes daily, with 22,000 recorded in the year.”

Guns are the instrument of choice for these monsters. However, if they were not available, they would find other means. Unless one intends to reduce the human race to running around naked save for the bubble wrap encasing their arms and legs, evil people are going to find ways to cause harm to others. The least we can do is allow the intended victims an effective defense.


“The Gun Is Civilization” By Maj. L. Caudill, USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat – it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation… And that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

[Ezzzzy1]

Guns are the instrument of choice for these monsters. However, if they were not available, they would find other means. Unless one intends to reduce the human race to running around naked save for the bubble wrap encasing their arms and legs, evil people are going to find ways to cause harm to others. The least we can do is allow the intended victims an effective defense.


Im not so sure about that.... There is something cool about shooting guns, and almost no cool appeal (other than looks) for knives. What people are doing is the same things we more or less see in movies, its glorified and while I have seen some pretty cool glorified knife fights in the movies I can imagine very many of them playing out with several deaths (especially if adults are the target). That and its personal. It takes a lot more to touch someone before you kill them then just pulling a trigger while running around.

Also think about this, just for the sake of conversation. How much fun is it to commit suicide by stabbing yourself? I guess one could only imagine but im thinking these guys do not want to live and im just not sure that anyone could count on being able to do that job with a knife alone.

[TFOGGuys]

I just wish these whackos would skip the part where they kill a bunch of other people for no real reason and just pick up the plot where they off themselves...

The sad truth is that if it wasn't guns, it'd be fire, or bombs, or poison gas. Any moderately bright 9 year old with access to the internet and 2 weeks allowance could walk out of Walgreens with enough explosive or poisonous material to kill dozens of people.

[Bueller]

The worst school massacre in US history. A gun only played a small part at the very end and he didn't even shoot anyone with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Kehoe

Whakos have been with us all along

[Drano]

This has been explained on this forum multiple times to the point that we're:horse:.

One of the most dangerous threats to our liberties would be to restrict or limit our access to military grade firearms. The intent of the 2nd Amendment was to secure our ability to fight our government. Period.

That said, if we had to fight our own armed forces I don't think we'd stand a snowball's chance in hell. We're outmatched and outgunned. Still, I'd much rather have a fighting chance than none at all. As it stands we may not be able to withstand bombardment, but eventually ground forces will have to engage in urban warfare to mop up what's left. In this respect, the playing field will be somewhat level.

If assault rifles, high capacity magazines, and armor piercing rounds are unnecessary, then I suppose we should just accept the government's control over our lives. Because, like a schoolyard bully, if you can't or don't fight back they'll do whatever they want.

[dirkterrell]

Another interesting perspective:

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/19/andrew_solomon_theres_no_meaning_to_be_found_in_sa ndy_hook/

[Ghosty]

Magpul press release on price gouging by some retailers:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/12/19/magpul-statement-on-magazine-prices/




We've received a lot of comments about some retailers charging extremely high prices for our products. We strongly discourage pricing strategies like this with our direct customers, as we just don't feel right about it. Those retailers who are buying through distribution, and not direct, may be worried about supply and reacting to the market with this pricing increase. We are firm believers in free capitalism, and as long as no one is damaging market value through their pricing strategy, we will allow the market to correct this situation, as it appears it already is. We intend to continue to produce and sell our products to support the MSRPs we have set. Magazines will continue to flow to those retailers, distributors, and OEM customers with whom we have direct relationships.

[Ghosty]

Whole nother can of worms. Commie China, blech, no thanks. Lots of religious folks would definitely think that's a mad idea too. But yes, Darwin is needed with a lot of trash that have too many kids. But it's their right.

[Ghosty]

...is should people be able to breed at free will. The person behind the killing of every person is someones child.
Absolutely they should, it's a fundamental human right to have kids. Unfortunately we can't regulate stupidity, common sense, and economic capability to raise kids. Too bad, huh?...

[dirkterrell]

Dirk you are acting like a ninja in here. Jumping in to drop a link and then disappearing again.


I'm following the discussion and speaking up when I see the need (e.g. the list of "school shootings" that Jeff posted). You're doing a fine job arguing important points. :)

[The Black Knight]

I'm following the discussion and speaking up when I see the need (e.g. the list of "school shootings" that Jeff posted). You're doing a fine job arguing important points. :)

I agree, which is why I haven't spoken up more other than to state a couple points of view of mine. Otherwise yes Townie you are doing a great job making very good points. Finally the torch has been passed I no longer have to jump in these discussions with the amount of good points and arguments being presented by others now. :up:

[dirkterrell]

Are you guys making fun of me?

Not in the slightest.

[Ezzzzy1]

I posted pages back about the random attacks in china at schools. The one on friday was just one. There has been many other attacks on children with knives and machetes. There is a body count there with very young children.

Different country, different means. Why do you think they are using knives Tom? Maybe because Assault rifles are not even remotely legal there, pretty much NO ONE even owns a gun in China. You can get the death penalty for having one in you bedroom drawer.... Its exactly what the gun lovers here are saying (if we didnt have guns they these crazies would use knives). Please, someone show me a list of knife rampages in China that is 1/100th what we have here in the states. There, because they dont have guns they use knives. I would bet to say that because of whats going on there they will pass laws against knives.


Also can know i know im a know it all but suicide here in nv is very high. First time dealing woth it was in the seventh grade. My friends brother. Very next year was my best friends cousin. Few years later my friend cody killed himself in jail. A few months later his dad. Then my friend mikes little brother. 07 one of my closest friends ever in life. Knew him from the first grade. Only two of them shot themselves. There are more acquaintances over the time and most of them hung themselves. One jumped off the parking garage of a casino in reno.

I wasnt talking about someone that wanted to hang themselves or pipe CO2 into their car because they found out their wives boyfriend was cheating on them. I was talking about someone that wanted to probably not get into trouble from killing large amounts of people because they went off the deep end. Im sorry that you have seen so many suicides but to compare what you know to my point is irrelevant.


I hate how you always think I am talking directly to you, for what its worth I was commenting on TFOGs comment (thats why I quoted it). To me someone thats a "know it all" is the guy, that during a conversation about why a mass murderer would want to kill themselves, brings up how many people they know that have killed themselves - the whole time being out of context.

[Ezzzzy1]

I'm following the discussion and speaking up when I see the need (e.g. the list of "school shootings" that Jeff posted). You're doing a fine job arguing important points. :)


I agree, which is why I haven't spoken up more other than to state a couple points of view of mine. Otherwise yes Townie you are doing a great job making very good points. Finally the torch has been passed I no longer have to jump in these discussions with the amount of good points and arguments being presented by others now. :up:

:lol:

Guaranteed he is beating off to these two comment as we speak.

[kalibra]

Magpul press release on price gouging by some retailers:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/12/19/magpul-statement-on-magazine-prices/
WHICH retailers specifically????? Gotta love how informative the article was.Not vague at all.

[Ghosty]

WHICH retailers specifically????? Gotta love how informative the article was.Not vague at all.
There's several reasons for that. They're being tactful, and not gonna call out specific shops. Also legal reasons I'm sure. Behind the scenes there might be more happening, like informing specific retailers, out of thousands they supply to.

When you go full public press release, companies legal departments have to walk a very careful line.

[Drano]

I was stationed in the UK and there have been regulations against knives since 1997. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/21/contents


1 Unlawful marketing of knives.
(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he markets a knife in a way which—
(a)indicates, or suggests, that it is suitable for combat; or

(b)is otherwise likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.
(2)“Suitable for combat” and “violent behaviour” are defined in section 10.

(3)For the purposes of this Act, an indication or suggestion that a knife is suitable for combat may, in particular, be given or made by a name or description—
(a)applied to the knife;

(b)on the knife or on any packaging in which it is contained; or

(c)included in any advertisement which, expressly or by implication, relates to the knife.
(4)For the purposes of this Act, a person markets a knife if—
(a)he sells or hires it;

(b)he offers, or exposes, it for sale or hire; or

(c)he has it in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire.
(5)A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both;

(b)on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine, or to both.Take away the guns and the psychos will use knives, take away knives and they'll simply find other means to accomplish what they intend to do. Eventually, it all derives to the same conclusion: The problem has nothing to do with the tools and has everything to do with the maniacs using them.

[dirkterrell]

Its exactly what the gun lovers here are saying (if we didnt have guns they these crazies would use knives). Please, someone show me a list of knife rampages in China that is 1/100th what we have here in the states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)

21 dead in school attacks in China over about a 3-year period from 2010-2012. There haven't been 2100 killed here in that time period. Over the same time period, the number in the US is 34, I believe.

Does having firearms make it easier to kill more people in a rampage? Sure it does. But your example of China and its ban on private ownership of firearms perfectly illustrates the argument that we supporters of private ownership are making: that a disarmed populace is neither free nor safe from the excesses of a totalitarian government, as the Tiananmen Square massacre clearly illustrated.

Again, the simplistic, misguided, knee-jerk reaction after these events is to somehow think that the guns used are the problem. Time and time again, we see that most of these massacres are perpetrated by people with clear mental health issues that were telegraphed ahead of time and we had no way of dealing properly with them. Let's address the problem where it really lies because although it may reduce the number of deaths somewhat, banning or further restricting guns will not keep massacres from happening and people will continue to die.

If a drunk runs through a crowd of people and kills dozens, we don't get up in arms about people having access to cars. But, gun control advocates say, cars have a useful purpose. What they fail to grasp, is that guns in the hands of citizens do as well. A purpose that, in addition to personal defense, saves orders of magnitude more lives than anything else enshrined in our laws: a deterrence against genocide by governments, which has killed millions more people than criminals. But, they say, that couldn't happen here. Only the naive and those ignorant of history have that sort of optimism. History tells a very different story.

[Snowman]

This has been explained on this forum multiple times to the point that we're:horse:.

One of the most dangerous threats to our liberties would be to restrict or limit our access to military grade firearms. The intent of the 2nd Amendment was to secure our ability to fight our government. Period.

That said, if we had to fight our own armed forces I don't think we'd stand a snowball's chance in hell. We're outmatched and outgunned. Still, I'd much rather have a fighting chance than none at all. As it stands we may not be able to withstand bombardment, but eventually ground forces will have to engage in urban warfare to mop up what's left. In this respect, the playing field will be somewhat level.

If assault rifles, high capacity magazines, and armor piercing rounds are unnecessary, then I suppose we should just accept the government's control over our lives. Because, like a schoolyard bully, if you can't or don't fight back they'll do whatever they want.Maybe this will silence the idea that owning guns of any type will keep in check a government that wants to assert unwanted authority from doing so...

Abrams Tank Drives over Car Bomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EVJqBSr_FEs)

Unless of course you are advocating the unlimited and unrestricted sale of every weapon out there.

This has been a lost argument for the second amendment for sometime now. Give it up and get back to the real issue.

[Snowman]

I dont rhink any of us are saying should have full access to nukes or tanks or scuds or any of that. I still believe that large portions of our military will say screw congress and fight for the people. Hope anyways. With the american people so far into the handicap to be able to provide any kind of a last stand limiting ourselves further is pure suicide.See I agree with you there. The idea people use to justify gun ownership through the second amendment is now outdated and potentially suicidal.

[Ghosty]

All the soldiers have real families they would die for, LONG BEFORE they die for the government, even under orders. Much of military personnel overwhelming favor RonPaul politics.

[dirkterrell]

Maybe this will silence the idea that owning guns of any type will keep in check a government that wants to assert unwanted authority from doing so...


Maybe this will proclaim the idea loudly:


The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
In a secret meeting in November 1939, four Jewish officers from the Polish Army met in the home of
Captain Henry Iwanski, to discuss and plan the formation of a Jewish fighting group, which was to
become part of the Polish Underground. By December of that same year, the ZZW (Zydowski Zwlazek
Wojskowy) became battle ready. The initial 39 members each took an oath of allegiance and each was
handed a gun. By 1940, information was being reported to General Sikorski of all developments
concerning this new branch of the Underground. In the following two years ZZW cells were forming
throughout Poland, the strongest positions held in Lwow, Lublin, and Stanislawow.

The German plan for the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto was carried out from July 22 to September 21, 1942 in
which over 350,000 Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto were sent to the death camps at Treblinka and Majdanek.On July
22, 1942, the Nazis orderd Czerniakow, the leader of the Judenrat, to assemble 5,000 Jews per day for "deportation".
The following day, Czerniakow committed suicide, rather than send his fellow Jews to death. When the Ghetto was
reduced to only 35,000 people, the "Party", that is the Zionist members of the Socialist left-wing party, decided to
establish their own underground organization.

The ZZW had already been active for more than two years and its rank and file increased to over 320 armed soldiers.
They met regularly with the Captain of the Polish Home Army, and received weapons, and instruction on how to use
them. Contact was also maintained by Henry Iwanski, Officer of the Security Corps of the Polish Home Army, who
warned the leader of the ZZW, David Apfelbaum, that the Germans were soon to begin action against the Ghetto. In
the company of Iwanski, Apfelbaum reported the situation to the leaders of the Judenrat but they adamantly rejected
the suggestions for military action. As a result, the ZZW refrained from taking military action in order to avoid blame
for causing a massacre.

On January 19, 1943, after a short interval, the Nazis resumed deportations and entered the Ghetto. They were
surprised when the Jews fought back. The ZZW, numbering 500 fighters, were armed with weapons supplied to them
by the Safety Corpus of the Polish Home Army. In the period from June 1942 to the start of the Uprising in April
1943, the Safety Corpus sent 3 heavy machine guns, 15 automatic guns, 750 grenades, 7 rifles, and 100
handguns,(with an additional 4 machine guns, one light machine gun, 11 automatic guns, 50 handguns, and 300
grenades at the start of the Uprising.) The ZZW also received weapons from other Polish Underground groups.
Despite their small numbers and limited weaponry, the Jewish resistance was a power to contend with...the Germans
had to retreat.

The Germans resumed their attack in April 1943, the first night of Passover. General Stroop sent over 2,000 SS and
German troops into the Warsaw Ghetto backed by Panzer units and police regiments, to put down the resistance and
resume deportations of the Jews. Jewish guerillas were greatly outnumbered - they consisted of only 500 fighters
from the ZOB, and an estimated 250 from other resistance groups. While the Germans were well armed with machine
guns, and light artillery, the Jewish fighters were found to have only 7 Polish rifles, 1 Russian rifle, 1 German rifle, 59
pistols, several hundred homemade grenades, several hundred incendiary explosives, and ammunition. Despite
German military superiority, it took them 11 days of battle with the Jews, before they put on an end to the Ghetto. The
Jewish fighters fought bravely, attacking the advancing Germans with continuous rounds of explosive bombs, but they
were overpowered German flamethrowers.

In his report, Stroop described the battle: "Over and over again new battle groups consisting of 20 to 30 or more
Jewish fellows, 18 to 25 years of age, accompanied by a corresponding number of women kindled new resistance.
These battle groups were under orders to put up armed resistance to the last and if necessary to escape arrest by
committing suicide....During this armed resistance the women belonging to the battle groups were equipped the same
as the men....Not infrequently, these women fired pistols with both hands, or hand grenades (Polish "pineapple" hand
grenades), concealed in their bloomers up to the last moment to use against the men of the Waffen, SS, Police, or
Wermacht....The resistance put up by the Jews and the bandits could be broken only by relentlessly using all our
force and energy day and night...."

After two days of brutal fighting, when Stroop could not defeat the Jews he ordered that the entire Ghetto be
systematically burned to the ground. Jews tried to escape the burning buildings by jumping from its upper stories,
throwing mattresses first to try to cushion their fall. Many were injured, their legs broken, but they tried to drag
themselves to safety to underground bunkers, or into the sewer networks.


source (http://www.polishgreatness.com/warsawghettouprising.html)

Now, if it took some of the Nazi's best troops several months to quell an uprising by a few poorly armed but highly motivated Polish citizens, imagine how many millions of lives might have been saved with a better armed civilian population. Note that the Nazi's didn't invade well-armed Switzerland because of the casualties they would have suffered.

[Snowman]

Yes, the idea that armed citizens is solely responsible for keeping this government in check is an outdated idea. Thus the argument many use for owning guns under the second amendment is outdated and there fore invalid for the topic of the thread.

Or did you not see the tank video...

Or do you have something to shoot these out of the sky..
Predator Drone Attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_fhCUbmHe-8)

Do you really think if the Nazi's had this kind of tech they would have sent a single solider in to clear the polish people out. They leveled the place from the air first then went in because they didn't have any more targets. If they had nukes at the time we would be discussing how hey turn the place to glass. (in German) Are you also going to argue the buzz bomb attacks on England an attempt at this with the tech that they had?

I don't care what gun you think you want to own, it does nothing to deter this government if it decided that it didn't want you around any more.

The argument that an armed popuplace can keep a government in check with this kind of tech at it's disposal is suicidal.

The reason for having gun in this society is because we have should the freedom to do so responsibly. Nothing else.

[bulldog]

Im not so sure about that.... There is something cool about shooting guns, and almost no cool appeal (other than looks) for knives. What people are doing is the same things we more or less see in movies, its glorified and while I have seen some pretty cool glorified knife fights in the movies I can imagine very many of them playing out with several deaths (especially if adults are the target). That and its personal. It takes a lot more to touch someone before you kill them then just pulling a trigger while running around.

Also think about this, just for the sake of conversation. How much fun is it to commit suicide by stabbing yourself? I guess one could only imagine but im thinking these guys do not want to live and im just not sure that anyone could count on being able to do that job with a knife alone. I agree and think it is easier for someone to pull a trigger than to actually have to touch someone to kill them. One can take less than a second and the other usually takes at least a minute since it usually takes multiple stab wounds to actually kill. The person would have to be there and see the person killing them with that look in their eyes of pure terror as the blood splatters on them as the person fights back. I believe courts have even given out harsher penalties for murders like that because they did feel it took a crazier person to do it that way.

Don't worry guns lovers, not saying to ban guns either, but I see his point. Don't get your panties all ruffled so early :lol:

[Ezzzzy1]

Well im sorry i responded to a post in a open forum. If you want a private conversation there is this little tool we have called private messaging. This would insure thay people like me wont respond to what you say. Newb.

Now you are totally missing the point here as usual. My example of china is to show unless we actually deal with the REAL problems they will continue to happen. As you just said china has very strict punishment for owning guns. The crazy people are still killing children in schools. It is a perfect example of no matter how much gun control we have we still have the original problem.

Just because i respond to YOUR post doesnt mean i felt YOU were talking to me. I was jist responding to a post. Thay post could have been posted by anyone and i would have responded to it.

What is this Private Messaging thing you are talking about? I will be looking into that after this for sure!

R R Read what I said. I didnt say I hate how you respond to what I say. You have some weird way of taking everything soo personal. Two people are talking about mass shootings and the killer killing themselves, you overhear the word suicide and bring up how many people you know that have done it.

I get your point, loud and clear. And would love to hear what your solution is but anyone thinking that the point of limiting guns isnt so that people dont use guns is missing the point. THAT IS THE POINT! People ARE using guns here and *BIG SURPRISE* thats why we are talking about what can be done about it.

Are you really saying nothing can be done about it so nothing should be? If that is so you are also then saying the problem isnt the guns its the people, correct? So if its the people, whats your solution to the problem? What do you have in that head of yours thats going to solve the problem of these people doing this shit?

Go...

[dirkterrell]

Do you really think if the Nazi's had this kind of tech they would have sent a single solider in to clear the polish people out. They leveled the place from the air first then went in because they didn't have any more targets. If they had nukes at the time we would be discussing how hey turn the place to glass. (in German) Are you also going to argue the buzz bomb attacks on England an attempt at this with the tech that they had?


Yes, the fallacy of thinking that technical superiority can overcome a numerically superior and highly motivated opponent. That mistake has been made over and over. And ask any military planner you like if conquest can be had without sending soldiers in. Tyrants desire to rule a population, not destroy it, lest they have nothing to rule. Some are content to be subjugated. Many are not.

[TFOGGuys]

Yes, the idea that armed citizens is solely responsible for keeping this government in check is an outdated idea. Thus the argument many use for owning guns under the second amendment is outdated and there fore invalid for the topic of the thread.

Or did you not see the tank video...

Or do you have something to shoot these out of the sky..
Predator Drone Attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_fhCUbmHe-8)

Do you really think if the Nazi's had this kind of tech they would have sent a single solider in to clear the polish people out. They leveled the place from the air first then went in because they didn't have any more targets. If they had nukes at the time we would be discussing how hey turn the place to glass. (in German) Are you also going to argue the buzz bomb attacks on England an attempt at this with the tech that they had?

I don't care what gun you think you want to own, it does nothing to deter this government if it decided that it didn't want you around any more.

The argument that an armed popuplace can keep a government in check with this kind of tech at it's disposal is suicidal.

The reason for having gun in this society is because we have should the freedom to do so responsibly. Nothing else.

Think about how the Mujaheddin gave the (technologically and numerically superior) Soviet army fits in Asscrackistan, or how the remnants of the Taliban continue to give the (technologically and numerically) superior forces of the US problems. We have been in A-stan for more than 10 years, and if we left tomorrow, it would revert to it's former status within months. Never discount the effectiveness of motivated guerrillas with moderately effective weapons. Technology and numbers only go so far, and in the case of the US, the numbers of armed citizens FAR outnumber the total number of members of the military. In addition, many in the military would decline to obey illegal orders attack US citizens on our own soil.

[Snowman]

Yes, the fallacy of thinking that technical superiority can overcome a numerically superior and highly motivated opponent. That mistake has been made over and over. And ask any military planner you like if conquest can be had without sending soldiers in. Tyrants desire to rule a population, not destroy it, lest they have nothing to rule. Some are content to be subjugated. Many are not.Agreed but the methodology of taking up arms as the only means to overthrow an oppressive government is no longer the case.

We live in the 21st century now where every cell phone can record every event and instantly post it to the world for everyone to judge the truth. We can report, blog comment on every action we see in mass. Guns can not do this, they can only kill your enemy one at a time, not change the minds of everyone around them.

What is keeping our government in check is not the 2nd Amendment it's the 1st. The world has changed Dirk.

[asp_125]

Since you bring up A-stan. The only reason we haven't wiped them off the face of the earth is not their determined resistance with inferior weapons. It's world scrutiny that prevents us from nuking them into the stone age.

[Ezzzzy1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)

21 dead in school attacks in China over about a 3-year period from 2010-2012. There haven't been 2100 killed here in that time period. Over the same time period, the number in the US is 34, I believe.

I will have to dig on this one and get back to you. I may very well be wrong but was really wanting someone to show me the number.




Does having firearms make it easier to kill more people in a rampage? Sure it does. But your example of China and its ban on private ownership of firearms perfectly illustrates the argument that we supporters of private ownership are making: that a disarmed populace is neither free nor safe from the excesses of a totalitarian government, as the Tiananmen Square massacre clearly illustrated.

For what its worth, and I said it before.... NO one is saying to disarm anyone. I have never met you, but to me you have always come off as a smart guy. Im only saying that because assuming thats correct I am a little surprised the the round table approach isnt jiving with you. There HAS to be a conversation about what can/could/should be done with these guns. These cases are only going to grow in popularity. Anyone saying "dont limit the guns because they will use knives" is crazy if they would rather be in the next office that gets shot up and would openly say that they would rather the killer have a gun than knife. Seriously. Crazy.



Again, the simplistic, misguided, knee-jerk reaction after these events is to somehow think that the guns used are the problem. Time and time again, we see that most of these massacres are perpetrated by people with clear mental health issues that were telegraphed ahead of time and we had no way of dealing properly with them. Let's address the problem where it really lies because although it may reduce the number of deaths somewhat, banning or further restricting guns will not keep massacres from happening and people will continue to die.

Lets address the problem, I 100% agree. Thinking that the solution is purely in dealing with the mental health of society and thinking that will work is just as crazy as anyone saying we need to eliminate guns all together. The solution probably lies on both sides, some gun regulations and some preventive medical direction. Along with a more proactive community.



If a drunk runs through a crowd of people and kills dozens, we don't get up in arms about people having access to cars. But, gun control advocates say, cars have a useful purpose. What they fail to grasp, is that guns in the hands of citizens do as well. A purpose that, in addition to personal defense, saves orders of magnitude more lives than anything else enshrined in our laws: a deterrence against genocide by governments, which has killed millions more people than criminals. But, they say, that couldn't happen here. Only the naive and those ignorant of history have that sort of optimism. History tells a very different story.

I see your point but do not see a drunks involuntary actions being anything near similar to mass shootings.

Honestly I dont think it matters if you guys can prove 100% that the problem is the people and not the guns. At some point anyone looking at this with an open mind has to at least look at the gun side for part of the solution. They HAVE to, especially given that NO ONE on the pro-gun side has a solution on the mental health side.

There is a ground in between naive/ignorant and paranoid.

[Ezzzzy1]

care to say why im taking anything personal? you repeatedly have a problem with me. solution? block me. you need to relax newb. ive been here eight years. you think you have or are saying anything to me that hasnt been said before? :roll:

i will slow this down for you. i am not saying nothing can be done. im saying that we need to deal with the problem not the tool. now what i mean by that is dealing with the people who have these mental issues.8)

Townie, pullin seniority! Im thinking over half the board would say they have made general statements that you have gone off the deep end about because of your "personal" experiences. Its how you approach everything on here, from your shoes alone.

Now speed it back up for me and lets talk about what you think the S.O.L.U.T.I.O.N. is.

[dirkterrell]

Agreed but the methodology of taking up arms as the only means to overthrow an oppressive government is no longer the case.


I never said it was the only means. There are many other things that have to be tried before it comes to armed revolution. But, it if does get to that stage and you have no weapons, you're as good as dead. See the history of the Soviet Union, Turkey, China, Cambodia, Guatemala, Uganda, Rwanda, etc...



We live in the 21st century now where every cell phone can record every event and instantly post it to the world for everyone to judge the truth. We can report, blog comment on every action we see in mass.


Until the government shuts down the networks for "public safety". Then to restore them, you will have to take physical control of the communication centers.



What is keeping our government in check is not the 2nd Amendment it's the 1st. The world has changed Dirk.

Technology has changed. People and their motivations have not. You can convince someone to do something by reason or by force, and when the government resorts to the latter, blog posts aren't going to save your ass. I agree that these new tools are useful but they will not be the final arbiter of a dispute with a tyrant.

[dirkterrell]

There is a ground in between naive/ignorant and paranoid.

I assume the "paranoid" comment is directed at those of us who disagree that rifles like the AR-15 should be banned from public ownership. It is not paranoid to be mindful of steps that work to prevent situations that killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. In a free society we will never be able to fully eliminate massacres like we have seen but it is very clear that if these mentally ill people had been institutionalized, there would not have been nearly as many of them. Keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people? I'm all for that. Trying to create a perfectly safe society at the risk of empowering tyranny that has historically led to the murders of millions? Not this guy.

[asp_125]

It will be interesting to hear what the NRA has to say on Friday.

[Ezzzzy1]

I assume the "paranoid" comment is directed at those of us who disagree that rifles like the AR-15 should be banned from public ownership. It is not paranoid to be mindful of steps that work to prevent situations that killed over 100 million people in the 20th century. In a free society we will never be able to fully eliminate massacres like we have seen but it is very clear that if these mentally ill people had been institutionalized, there would not have been nearly as many of them. Keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people? I'm all for that. Trying to create a perfectly safe society at the risk of empowering tyranny that has historically led to the murders of millions? Not this guy.

Your assumption is wrong. I own 2 ARs and dont think they should be banned. I was just saying that there is an opposite to the feared "naive/ignorant" and its called "paranoid.

Honestly, and I dont know what you are working with but Naive/Ignorant to me is anyone that thinks that owning even 5 ar15s and 20,000 rounds is going to do shit when "it hits the fan". Aaand at that point, having that much "invintory", im pretty sure that millions of people would consider you paranoid.

[TFOGGuys]

It will be interesting to hear what the NRA has to say on Friday.

Well, at least the NRA had the decency to not come out and politicize this tragic crime before the bodies were even cool, unlike the White House, the Brady Campaign, the left wing media, and a number of Senators and Congressmen. I find it reprehensible that they chose to seize upon the circumstances to further their political agenda, while the NRA has chosen to express outrage, sorrow, and sympathy without injecting politics. I don't agree with a lot of things the NRA has chosen to do over the years, but in this case, it's clear they have chosen to take the high road. I only wish the gun control advocates had as much grace.

[Ghosty]

Full agree! The POTUS and congress can say things for the victims and families and NOT ADDRESS gun control, until the bodies are in the ground. The NRA did good this time, very glad to see that. I notice the pattern too, after all these shootings. Also glad to see the NRA trying to at least appear willing to listen to compromise on future gun-control, but keeping up the stance on mental health too.

[Snowman]

I never said it was the only means. There are many other things that have to be tried before it comes to armed revolution. But, it if does get to that stage and you have no weapons, you're as good as dead. See the history of the Soviet Union, Turkey, China, Cambodia, Guatemala, Uganda, Rwanda, etc...And thus to my original point, do you think this government with access to Abrams Tanks, Predator Drones and every other current means to put down a insurrection in this country would be deterred by anything the 2nd Amendment guarantees?

No, they would not. If fact it makes their case to put down any armed insurrection in the name of public safety. Waco or Ruby Ridge come to mind. .


Until the government shuts down the networks for "public safety". Then to restore them, you will have to take physical control of the communication centers. And just how fast you think the screams of every american will prevent this from ever happen in the first place? Ever try and get a 10 year old off her cell phone all the way up to the threat of lost revenue that sustains the Corporations. This country does not work that way anymore. We are not the Soviet Union, Turkey, China, Cambodia, Guatemala, Uganda, Rwanda, etc...

If this government even hinted in that general direction everyone from the top down would lose their job and they know it.


Technology has changed. People and their motivations have not. You can convince someone to do something by reason or by force, and when the government resorts to the latter, blog posts aren't going to save your ass. I agree that these new tools are useful but they will not be the final arbiter of a dispute with a tyrant.I agree people have not changed and never will. We are all a bunch of selfish bastards. We all want what we want and will fight each other for it.

However there are more people than there is government and this government can not exist without its people. That is the point you are missing.

You think for one moment a discussion about over turning the Constitution by anyone in our government won't get out? Romney couldn't even talk to a closed room of conservatives party donors without it being plaster on YouTube the day after.

The only chance we have is exposing those who would change the way we wish to live in the country, not stockpiling weapons. We can't win a war against our own government by force of arms, because they have us way out gunned.

Thus the argument that the right to bear arms has anything to do with the protection of our rights is not a valid one anymore. I can do more with my cell phone to protect this country than you will ever with your gun.

[Ghosty]

Off-duty LEO/CCW stops another potential mass-shooter at SanAntonio theater:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/

[dirkterrell]

The only chance we have is exposing those who would change the way we wish to live in the country, not stockpiling weapons. We can't win a war against our own government by force of arms, because they have us way out gunned.

Thus the argument that the right to bear arms has anything to do with the protection of our rights is not a valid one anymore. I can do more with my cell phone to protect this country than you will ever with your gun.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. History shows that armed resistance to tyranny is effective even against a militarily superior opponent. And I do not think we would be able to tweet our way out of the control of a tyrannical government should it arise.

[Snowman]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. History shows that armed resistance to tyranny is effective even against a militarily superior opponent. And I do not think we would be able to tweet our way out of the control of a tyrannical government should it arise.And I would say given recent events in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, Sudan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Djiboutiand Western Sahara is showing that just because we did it that way in history doesn’t mean it’s the right way now. The old ideas are not necessarily the right ideas. And we shouldn't justify your wants on ideas when those ideas are out of date.

As a species if we are not learning we are dead.

[dirkterrell]

And I would say given recent events in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, Sudan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Djiboutiand Western Sahara is showing that just because we did it that way in history doesn’t mean it’s the right way now.

Well, let's just say that the jury is still out on those places... ;)

[TFOGGuys]

Australia's example: How gun control works

http://youtu.be/p8RDWltHxRc

[CaptGoodvibes]

Off-duty LEO/CCW stops another potential mass-shooter at SanAntonio theater:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
Handgun illegally possessed.

[The Black Knight]

Ed Shultz is such a piece of shit:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jack-coleman/2012/12/17/founding-fathers-just-some-dead-people-spews-ed-schultz-anti-second-am

http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/2012/Schultz%20on%20guns%20dec%2014%2012%20one.mp3

http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/2012/Schultz%20on%20guns%20dec%2014%2012%20second.mp3

Who is this man to decide whether or not our Constitution and Bill of Rights apply and don't apply??? Apparently he has no probably using the application of the 1st Amendment to spew his bullshit, however thinks the 2nd Amendment is now obsolete and should be changed.

Everyday more and more, I get irritated with just how stupid people in this country really are...



P.S.

saw this comment and wanted to make a quick comment back:



We can't win a war against our own government by force of arms, because they have us way out gunned.


Tell that to Leonidas who took 300 men to fight an army of 1,000,000. Who for three days, with the help of other Greeks, valiantly held off the Persian army. :D

[Snowman]

Tell that to Leonidas who took 300 men to fight an army of 1,000,000. Who for three days, with the help of other Greeks, valiantly held off the Persian army. :DHmm 300 half dressed Spartans with shields and swords against a Squadron of full loaded Apache Longbows. You do the math...

[The Black Knight]

Hmm 300 half dressed Spartans with shields and swords against a Squadron of full loaded Apache Longbows. You do the math...
You're missing the underlying point and message behind the battle of Thermopylae. It wasn't about the numbers or weaponry. It was about men not willing to succumb to a foreign invader. Did they know they were out numbered and would face weaponry they didn't have?? Yes, absolutely. However, due to their devotion to their country, respect for their king and mindset of "if we won't stand against them, who will?" is what drove them forward.

It's about dying on your feet fighting for something, than living on your knees for nothing.

If you want to live on your knees and accept subjugation then by all means, live your life how you see fit.

As for myself, I'd rather die on my feet fighting for freedoms our nation's builders knew we needed to keep us free.

It's a defining moment Snowman. You either define the moment, or the moment defines you. No one ever said Freedom is free, it comes with a high price. The price is blood, the blood of those willing to bleed it, to keep this country as it should be. Free....



"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

[bulldog]

Hmm 300 half dressed Spartans with shields and swords against a Squadron of full loaded Apache Longbows. You do the math... Yeah because smaller armies have never beat larger armies.....

Oh wait my Spanish ancestors did http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage.php?Dir=wars&FileName=wars_aztecs.php

Hernando Cortez, acting essentially on his own, with an army of only about 500 men overthrew the wealthiest, most sophisticated, and most powerful empire on the American continent. The Aztecs were not a passive, peace-loving people. They had enormous armies of experienced warriors and dominated the tribes and territories for hundreds of miles around.

:D

[Ezzzzy1]

hey look the guy is speaking for others again. thats getting a little old. congrats you have now been deemed a child.

dont worry pumpkin we will have plenty of time to destroy other threads. this one isnt one of those. again good to see you showing the respect.

You are doing a great job of avoiding answering the question.... What is your solution? Do you even have one?

[Ezzzzy1]

Um....



Are you really saying nothing can be done about it so nothing should be? If that is so you are also then saying the problem isnt the guns its the people, correct? So if its the people, whats your solution to the problem? What do you have in that head of yours thats going to solve the problem of these people doing this shit?




Now speed it back up for me and lets talk about what you think the S.O.L.U.T.I.O.N. is.


You are doing a great job of avoiding answering the question.... What is your solution? Do you even have one?

[Ghosty]

I am not going to lie. This isn’t easy reading through all these acts.
Hang that mother fucker Hassan for murder, treason, and everything else, multiple counts. Get a rope.

[Ghosty]

Glad to see the CT. LEA's are taking threats seriously, as should every LEA. Arresting and charging two teens making "idle threats of violence" over Facebook, verbal, email, whatever. Charged with felony counts. Those guys need to be slapped around for sure.

[Rider]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h54/irishrussianpunk/bike/dosxx.png

[Ezzzzy1]

:lol:

How much of any of that did you actually write? Id say maybe to or three sentences?

[Ghosty]

LOL @ Rider! Nice...

Lanza's Mother paid the ultimate price for her love and wanting her defective son to "fit in". Too bad she wasn't brave enough to commit him like the Mothers in the articles that rforsythe or dirkterrell linked prior. Sad, sad, all around.

:(

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/16/us/connecticut-nancy-lanza-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Proof the focus should be on mental health, and maybe MILD gun control/fixing, not the sweeping bullshit congress Dems will try to now push through. Glad they don't have the House majority at least, for now...

[Ghosty]

250,000 dollars a year in alimony? Dude............
Huh?

[bluedogok]

President Obama will be handed the power to shut down the Internet for at least four months without Congressional oversight if the Senate votes for the infamous Internet ‘kill switch’ bill, which was approved by a key Senate committee yesterday and now moves to the floor
The NSA already has the ability to "disrupt" the internet and phone communications and effectively shut it down. They already have contract data mining companies tracking internet traffic and are building their own data center in Utah. Just like many things about the gov't, they have the ability, now they are just seeking permission but like most will use it whether they have permission or not if they feel it necessary to do so.

[TransNone13]

The NSA already has the ability to "disrupt" the internet and phone communications and effectively shut it down. They already have contract data mining companies tracking internet traffic and are building their own data center in Utah. Just like many things about the gov't, they have the ability, now they are just seeking permission but like most will use it whether they have permission or not if they feel it necessary to do so.

You'd be surprised... Peterson has the ability to black it out. Cyber Command anyone...

[modette99]

So sad people are confused over what an assault rifle is, they really need to watch this video:
http://youtu.be/yATeti5GmI8

[Ghosty]

Gotta love the NSA, keep 'Murica safe, fuck yea!... There's a terrorist hiding in every bush, they will bomb our McDonalds!...

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

[bluedogok]

You'd be surprised... Peterson has the ability to black it out. Cyber Command anyone...
I did a lot of military facilities back when I was at a large A/E firm in OKC (left there and moved to Austin in 2003), so no, it wouldn't surprise me. It's just some of the people with the NSA contract facility that I did in Austin (2006) weren't really shy about saying what they did or the power they had.