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View Full Version : Use your front brakes!



Wrider
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 06:09 PM
I was out riding with one of my usual riding buddies and his gf. He's very experienced, rides a ZX10R, and he and I ride about the same pace.

She is a very inexperienced rider, she's put maybe 1000-1500 miles on her Ninja 250 in the last two years she's owned it.

We were riding with him in front, her behind him, and me at the rear in a staggered formation. We were riding along in pretty heavy traffic and paying attention in front of us as well as to the car trying to merge into us from the right. The cars in front of us braked suddenly and all 3 of us hit the brakes pretty hard. Here's where the issue comes in.

You need to use the front brake!

I've noticed with a lot of Ninja 250 riders that they use their rear brake the most. I understand why, seeing as both are equally effective on that bike, not to mention that the front causes the weak forks to dive. That said, it's a bad, horrible, terrible habit. She locked up her rear brake and the rear end kicked out to the right. The bike went down and she tumbled off into the lane to the left. Her helmet is scraped all to hell, but her TourMaster jacket held up extremely well. She is a little torn up, some fatty tissue missing from her knee, a decent bruise on her hip, and a scraped up hand (wear sturdy gear people, those thin gloves are next to useless). She'll be ok, but the bike is probably totaled. We had probably 10 people stop and make sure she was alright, and blocking traffic for us, so that was absolutely terrific.

Another side note is that I've always wondered if staggered formation was really the way you should be riding, and after seeing what I saw today, I can tell you that it's exactly how you should ride. The bike in front was to the right, her bike to the left, and my bike to the left. When she went down, the bike went forward and slightly to the right, missing my buddy/her bf's front wheel by about 3 feet. I was able to stop before I hit any part of her bike or her solely because I was off to the side.

Drama2
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 06:28 PM
wow...first I am glad she will be ok. I understand the lesson here is about breaking and to apply BOTH brakes, so some learning from this is or questions is who taught her to ride, did she take MSF class? And I was also curious to know what type of pants she was wearing and gloves? But I am once again very happy another female ride is safe, sore and bruised but alive and I hope this doesn't stop her from getting back on.

guambra2001
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 08:20 PM
Wow...sucks but at least she's fine. I ride a ZX-3r aka Njnja 300 :) and I can tell you the majority of the braking power lies in the front brake. I could not see how someone uses the rear break only!! Yikes.

Now I do like to use the rear to set my entry speed but not for sole braking. Glad she's ok and hopefully she can Lear from this ...

FZRguy
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 09:54 PM
Parking lot drills, over and over and over til she can haul it down as quick as an exp. rider.

3point5
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 11:00 PM
Glad everyone is OK - I've caught myself using too much rear brake…almost to the point where I want to (mechanically) restrict how much force I can apply…quite possibly the bigger lesson is to give yourself, your riding party and the people behind you three times the room to slow down / panic stop...

I'm surprised we don't see more riders getting rear-ended - simply based on how quickly a bike can stop vs. how quickly a car can stop…energy in a car : cars braking capacity vs. energy in a bike : bikes braking capacity...

Drama2
Sat Sep 21st, 2013, 11:06 PM
I hear you on this..my other half made me do parking lot drills for an entire summer and then take 2 motorcycle classes before he let me get off of training wheels. So happy he did.


Parking lot drills, over and over and over til she can haul it down as quick as an exp. rider.

Wrider
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 09:35 AM
On the 250, the front and rear supply the same amount of braking power. Trust me, I've ridden 3 or so, and all of them are the same in that respect.

We won't be encouraging her to get on another bike. In her 2000 miles or so she's gone down 3 times with no other mitigating factors, and refuses to practice the drills we offer to help her with. Yes she took the MSF, she just doesn't apply it.

In response to giving plenty of room... We did actually. The car in front of us went from 35 to stopped in probably 30 or 40 feet. Almost locked up their brakes stopping in time.

fruitblender
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 12:08 PM
That sounds terrible, I'm glad she's ok. I started on a Ninja 250 and got into the same habit. I took my bike in for the 5000 mile service and got chewed out by the mechanic as my back pads needed replacing but had plenty of time left on the front pads... Few weeks later I locked up the rear wheel, but managed to pull into another lane and steady it before completely losing control. Learned my lesson at that point.

With my Ninja 650 now I can really tell the difference between how effective front braking and back braking is, so its not as temping to rely on the back.

kevplus2
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 05:02 PM
On the 250, the front and rear supply the same amount of braking power. Trust me, I've ridden 3 or so, and all of them are the same in that respect.

while it may have felt to you like the front and back supply the same amount of braking power, basic physics say they dont. even if all of the components were identical ont he front and back brake systems (rotor size/caliper piston size/and m/c piston size), which they are not, i would agree that the same amount of force is being exerted on the contact patch of each tire when the bike is not moving (exactly when you dont need brakes). once you throw motion into the equation and weight shifts forward, over 70% of the braking force is being exerted through the contact patch of the front tire.

so your point still stands that riders should learn to use the front brake

Wrider
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 08:29 PM
Actually from a physics perspective my point still stands. The difference is that the rear is easier to lock up because it has less weight on it (contributing to a smaller contact patch as well). I'll ask my physics professor tomorrow for confirmation...

Wrider
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 08:34 PM
Can't edit on mobile but you're right on the different sizes. I'm not sure what to tell you but they are either the same or extremely close. Find one to test ride if you don't believe me.

Aaron
Sun Sep 22nd, 2013, 08:48 PM
I'm glad she's ok.

On a side note, if you're considering buying a bike and ABS is available, get it, you won't regret it, even if you do track riding.

tecknojoe
Mon Sep 23rd, 2013, 07:02 AM
I understand why, seeing as both are equally effective on that bike, not to mention that the front causes the weak forks to dive.

I've never heard of any bike having both brakes equally as effective. Weight shifts to the front of the bike when the forks compress, a vast majority of stopping power comes from the front. The rear is just that "little extra"

I'm glad she's ok though, the bike is always replacable. Just ask Brad

jlr
Mon Sep 23rd, 2013, 09:28 AM
Actually from a physics perspective my point still stands. The difference is that the rear is easier to lock up because it has less weight on it...

There is a contradiction in there. Once weight transfers forward, that is exactly the reason the front has more stopping power. More weight = ability to generate more deceleration force. The harder you're braking, the more weight transfer and bigger the disparity in braking power. When you're just casually slowing down the front and rear may feel like they have similar braking ability, but when you need to stop quickly, the front is able to slow you down A LOT faster without locking up. And if you're taking physics, you probably also know that there is more braking force available from a rolling tire (static coefficient of friction) than a sliding one (dynamic coefficient of friction).

Glad she made it through with only minor injuries. Hope she heals up soon and decides it's time for some drills!

Aaron
Mon Sep 23rd, 2013, 09:37 AM
There really is no argument here, there's a reason the front brakes are larger and typically have more than one rotor, and that's because there is so much more weight on the front tire that significantly more force can be applied without locking it up, which creates more heat, causing the need for bigger brakes.

Wrider
Mon Sep 23rd, 2013, 01:47 PM
Oh no I definitely understand the physics behind it. I'm just saying that the Ninjette is the only bike I've ever ridden where the front and rear offer very similar braking performance (until the rear locks up obviously).

That said, we're hoping she decides she doesn't want another bike. 2000 miles + 3 self caused accidents = someone that shouldn't be riding IMHO.

limespeed
Mon Sep 23rd, 2013, 09:48 PM
Sorry to hear about your friends accident... I ride a Ninja 250 as well and in my opinion the rear brake is great for slowing to a rolling stop at a stop sign. beyond light braking, the rear simply does not cut it as the rear becomes so unweighted that locking the rear is annoyingly easy. unless I happen to be riding on gravel or a situation with poor traction, I always have two fingers covering the front lever.

Like you, I am a firm believer in front brakes. That being said, your friend made two mistakes: first and obviously she used the wrong brake lever. Secondly, if your friend had correct braking posture and technique she would have hit the car directly in front of her. (I am very glad she didn't) Because your friends rear end slid out, she must have been leaning to one side or must have put unequal pressure on the handle bars. Good braking posture dictates staying completely vertical and putting little pressure on the bars to get the most breaking force out of your rubber

What I'm saying is, go out and practice your stoppies!!! Put all your gear on and get there gradually!

Sleev
Tue Sep 24th, 2013, 12:14 PM
I took the MSF course probably 12 years ago. I don't remember them stressing using the front more than the back, but that of course could've been the fault of the instructors we had.

Snazzy
Tue Sep 24th, 2013, 07:46 PM
I took the MSF course last year and they only tell us to use both brakes.

FZRguy
Tue Sep 24th, 2013, 08:35 PM
A very quick stop saved my bacon last year when a Jeep did a u-turn on I-25 on-ramp near the AFA. I had shifted into 3rd and was accelerating when dude turned in front of me from the right side of the road. I always cover the front brake with one finger to avoid grabbing and hauled it down with both brakes, barely missing his rear quarter panel. It was my first real I NEED TO STOP NOW situation and I was happy with the outcome.

Aaron
Wed Sep 25th, 2013, 08:43 AM
I took the MSF course last year and they only tell us to use both brakes.
Although this is generally good advice, there are situations when one brake is better, which is why most bikes still have separate systems. I'm not sure if my bike links the brakes under some conditions or not, though I did turn ABS off and was able to lock the rear.

Nice leathers too!

Slo
Wed Sep 25th, 2013, 08:53 AM
I took the MSF course last year and they only tell us to use both brakes.

MSF is a great course, but keep in mind that is a "beginners course" designed for anyone, from any background, for any street legal motorcycle, getting onto our public roads. If they taught it without using the rear brake, could be a huge liability issue.

usmcab35
Wed Sep 25th, 2013, 09:33 AM
I use both when I need to stop really quick but normally for everything its all front for me, Its so natural I grab for the front first. Glad she is ok, and with that many accidents I hope if she decides to get another bike she takes some more training and learns to walk before she learns to run!

mxer
Thu Sep 26th, 2013, 12:22 PM
My rear brake barely works on my SV650. Interesting that even with an experienced BF rider and the MSF she won't change her ways. Maybe she's used to braking the rear on a bicycle or just terrified of endoing. The MSF stresses both brakes but also works on finding the threshold of the rear tire locking up. Maybe not getting another bike is for her own good.

Generic
Thu Sep 26th, 2013, 12:45 PM
Additionally, you should be able to control a rear tire skid in case it does happen. Even from 15MPH you can just lock it and get an idea what it feels like and learn to slide it.

FZRguy
Thu Sep 26th, 2013, 08:31 PM
I use both when I need to stop really quick but normally for everything its all front for me, Its so natural I grab for the front first.

Maybe you didn't mean it literally, but GRAB is what you don't want to do.

97ThunderCat
Thu Oct 3rd, 2013, 02:56 PM
Crazy that somebody would only use the rear brake.. I sometimes only use the front but most of the time I'm applying both evenly. I've owned four sportbikes and the YZF600R hands down has the best braking system of them all. (03 ZX6R, 92 and 00 CBR)

FZRguy
Thu Oct 3rd, 2013, 11:02 PM
I tried out my brothers HD on my trip to NC in July. Nice Harley with big bore kit, heavy duty clutch more suited to the drag strip, and all blinged out. I stretch her wings a bit and go to grab the single front disc (and I do mean GRAB here), and nothing, she don't stop. Trying to find the back brake in its awkward position, just about shit myself. I now understand why the cruiser crowd uses a lot of back brake. The most awkward motorcycle I have ever ridden.

Aaron
Fri Oct 4th, 2013, 10:59 AM
It's a good thing you weren't going very fast. The big bore kit takes to to like 80hp to handle 800lbs!