335i vs wrx

[#1Townie]

so we can carry this conversation on.

I have played with a few rexs and they have fallen very short. the only thing I can think of is that most of the owners of those cars are young. Also my bmw is auto but I can switch to the paddle shifters. this has been very nice as I get the best of both worlds and I only miss the clutch on the launch. From a rolling start I will walk all over that awd beast. but with that being said im sure a ton of that also falls into lack of experience with shifting.

All in all I don't really race my car but there have been a couple cars that really wanted it. First one was a mustang and that was funny as shit. spanked in front of his chick. had a wrx sti really mess with me on my way down from Tahoe and again it was just funny. neither one really held up.

but on paper the times are really close. I don't know what one you have so here is a list.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/Subaru-0-60-mph-Times.html

this is the review of the 2006 but really still the same as my car.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/real-world-bmw-335i-0-60-14-mile-times.html

[bulldog]

Busy day, but I don't see mine on that list. I have a 2014 WRX Limited; the 2.5 liter engine. I do have the STI exhaust and short shifter which may add a little. Also got lighter rims; four pnds lighter per rim over stock


This is always interesting though: The 268-hp turbo five six-speed manual are capable of quicker 0–60 times than the STI's 6 speed;

P.S. And before anyone says I thought I could beat a 335X I did not...just said it would be interesting since a 2006 vs 2014 and was more about racing one handed manual transmission vs a two handed manual transmission (to prove two hands do help)

[bulldog]

Link on mine...same engine as last of the 2.5 liter: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1302_2013_subaru_impreza_wrx_special_edition_first _test/

The WRX Special Edition launches hard, and accelerateshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1302_2013_subaru_impreza_wrx_special_edition_first _test/#) from 0-60 mph in 4.7 seconds, beating the last WRX STI sedan we tested by 0.3 second. The WRX is faster in the quarter mile, too, racing down the dragstrip in 13.5 seconds at 100.0 mph, handily beating the WRX STI's 13.8-second time

[AOK303]

should of bought an Audi is all im gonna say

[GMR]

should of bought an Audi is all im gonna say

S60R. Can't go wrong with a Vo!
Not to mention, only the classiest of women understand the intricacies of a Vo

also, why are we talking about 1/4 mile and 0-60 times for cars on a sportbike forum? Those 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are cute

[~Barn~]

I finally got my MS6 sold (for much less than what I wanted for it. Grr....) but I just picked up this beauty from a guy down in Phoenix as a replacement. It... like many of the aforementioned... also sucks when compared to a sportbike.

http://images.cars.com/supersized/SIY/0/10520200.1396297762509.7ADB253667B64634817B2184422 86875.png

http://images.cars.com/supersized/SIY/0/10520200.1396297755772.83E3C2F2D75841AABB8FF0E7DDF D270E.png

[madvlad]

Damn dude, nice

[~Barn~]

I'm just kidding, I didn't buy that Audi. :D

I would like an RS5 at some point though. One of these days...

[The Black Knight]

I'm just kidding, I didn't buy that Audi. http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif

I would like an RS5 at some point though. One of these days...
Barn those RS5's are pretty sweet looking cars. Not a fan of Audi by any means but do like the way those cars look. Them and the R8. Good luck if you get one :up:


Busy day, but I don't see mine on that list. I have a 2014 WRX Limited; the 2.5 liter engine. I do have the STI exhaust and short shifter which may add a little. Also got lighter rims; four pnds lighter per rim over stock


This is always interesting though: The 268-hp turbo five six-speed manual are capable of quicker 0–60 times than the STI's 6 speed;

P.S. And before anyone says I thought I could beat a 335X I did not...just said it would be interesting since a 2006 vs 2014 and was more about racing one handed manual transmission vs a two handed manual transmission (to prove two hands do help)
Believe it or not, over on the Camaro5 forum, the WRX seems to be main rival for the Camaro V6. I've always thought the WRX was quicker but looking at figures and times on-line, then seeing them in action on YouTube. I was surprised they aren't quicker. Seems to me, once they are modified they can be very quick.

But usually the older WRX's seem to pick on the Camaro V6 guys. Usually they get stomped by the SS or ZL1's if they race them. I'm sure the new WRX's are a lot quicker and more in the Camaro SS range now.

I will say this from first hand knowledge. That a 2006 WRX lightly modified beat my Camaro(V6) from a dig but I kept the front end of my car in the WRX's rear bumper. However, from a roll on race my Camaro left the WRX for dead. Especially going 2nd to 3rd. Once the V6 gets rolling it's actually got some serious grunt for what it is. It's still no monster in terms of out right speed but I'm pleasantly surprised by how quick the little V6 is.

Oh yeah, here's my lady as she sits now. Done a few upgrades to make the car look the way a Camaro should.

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/CamaroHashMarks_zpsbfbd0532.jpg

(http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/DNA_SWIRL_777/media/CamaroHashMarks_zpsbfbd0532.jpg.html)http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/CamaroHashMarks2_zpsba4b4b02.jpg (http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/DNA_SWIRL_777/media/CamaroHashMarks2_zpsba4b4b02.jpg.html)



I'd race with you Townie just for the hell of it. I don't care if I lose(I'm sure I would against the 355i), just love running cars every now and then. Something different from the bike and road courses.


P.S.

If any ricers(i.e. Subie's) or V8's(Camaro SS/ZL1's) wants to pick on my little V6 lady(believe me I get so much shit from people for driving a V6 Camaro), I always recommend that they tackle her two wheel sister first :D

here they are after a nice bath....

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/Ladies_zps50ca983d.jpg (http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/DNA_SWIRL_777/media/Ladies_zps50ca983d.jpg.html)

[#1Townie]

Gmr we are talking autos... In the auto section. I started the thread after the topic kind of come up in another thread. So to not thread jack it we moved over here. Stop being a noob.

Bulldog yeah they seem to be really close. Now what's not in those links is how easy it is to get a 335i to 500 HP. Its actually not much work and would cost very little to have a monster. But also being that mine is a hard top convertible its a lot heavier. But that's okay because its a blast to drop the top up at the lake. So fun.


Barn why did you sell your Audi?

Knight... Bro that is a sweet ride!!! Looks clean for sure. I'm really not into racing much anymore. But we could have some fun chasing the bikes in the mountains. Lol.

First car to test mine was a 2004ish mustang gt. It at least pipes on it. Very loud. Kept reving. When we left the light we didn't launch I just made sure to stay just ahead of him as he kept accelerating. After a few seconds he got annoyed and dumped and so did I. I walked all over that thing.

But really I just enjoy some simple drives in the mountains.

[#1Townie]

http://youtu.be/fPAe9ibpO9k

[sag]

we did a 15k ticket on a dudes 335i at the shop. downpipes, exhaust, intakes, tune, KW v3s, front mount et cetera... thing pulled pretty hard it was fun. made about 380 to the wheels. my roommate just scooped an NSX, not fast but quick enough to have fun in. the attention it gets is just ridiculous.

[The Black Knight]

Gmr we are talking autos... In the auto section. I started the thread after the topic kind of come up in another thread. So to not thread jack it we moved over here. Stop being a noob.

Bulldog yeah they seem to be really close. Now what's not in those links is how easy it is to get a 335i to 500 HP. Its actually not much work and would cost very little to have a monster. But also being that mine is a hard top convertible its a lot heavier. But that's okay because its a blast to drop the top up at the lake. So fun.


Barn why did you sell your Audi?

Knight... Bro that is a sweet ride!!! Looks clean for sure. I'm really not into racing much anymore. But we could have some fun chasing the bikes in the mountains. Lol.

First car to test mine was a 2004ish mustang gt. It at least pipes on it. Very loud. Kept reving. When we left the light we didn't launch I just made sure to stay just ahead of him as he kept accelerating. After a few seconds he got annoyed and dumped and so did I. I walked all over that thing.

But really I just enjoy some simple drives in the mountains.

Thanks mang, yeah I love my Camaro. I've never felt the way I do about a car the way I do with this. I'm keeping this one for sure.

It started out as a base 1LS Camaro. Very little power, cloth everything, ugly 18" Steel Heritage Wheels. So far I've added: Flowmaster Series 10 axle back, K&N Typhoon CAI, Elite Catch Can, 20% window tint, 20" ZL1 wheels from factory reproductions and the gun metal hash marks. I'm very happy with the way the car has turned out. Still want to do different headlights with the Halo's that the RS Camaro's get but not sure. Bike has taken funds away from the car ever since riding season started. All in all I can't complain, the only downside is it being black and sucks to keep clean. The upside is she's a head turner. I've gotten more compliments from women on this car than I can remember. They don't care what's under the hood, they just care that it looks sexy ;)

[#1Townie]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/nvrider/20140516_062838_zps5aecc938.jpg

Oh black is a bitch. Shows every scratch. Shows every little thing that's wrong.

[The Black Knight]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/nvrider/20140516_062838_zps5aecc938.jpg

Oh black is a bitch. Shows every scratch. Shows every little thing that's wrong.

But when it's clean, it's the best color ever.

[#1Townie]

But when it's clean, it's the best color ever.

Yeah it is. Shines so nice. At night is the best.

[#1Townie]

we did a 15k ticket on a dudes 335i at the shop. downpipes, exhaust, intakes, tune, KW v3s, front mount et cetera... thing pulled pretty hard it was fun. made about 380 to the wheels. my roommate just scooped an NSX, not fast but quick enough to have fun in. the attention it gets is just ridiculous.

15k and all you guys got was 100hp?

[bulldog]

Gmr we are talking autos... In the auto section. I started the thread after the topic kind of come up in another thread. So to not thread jack it we moved over here. Stop being a noob.

Bulldog yeah they seem to be really close. Now what's not in those links is how easy it is to get a 335i to 500 HP. Its actually not much work and would cost very little to have a monster. But also being that mine is a hard top convertible its a lot heavier. But that's okay because its a blast to drop the top up at the lake. So fun.

Yeah man I ain't going to lie; my buddy had that same 2009 335i and with a tuner and new tune he got major power out of that car. Hence it is a V6 twin Turbo, so I am even impressed a 2.5 liter single turbo can even keep up...especially when we are talking about a $32K car vs a $45K car (new of course) About two months ago I did pull up to one at a stop light. We were on Santa Fe so had a pretty good open run and we were pretty much neck and neck, but he did have me by about 1/2 a car length. I bet a lot would come down to the launch as sometimes I can get a sick launch and other times it sucks; my first turbo as always had NA......still perfecting it, but trying to baby the car a bit too.

My issue for tuning is if I want to lose my warranty. A simple COBB tuner would get me to the 305hp WRX power and I hear greatly improve the power overall. I will just lose my warranty and have found no way that the dealer could not check my ECU to see my mapping was changed so at this point just trying to be content with it like it is. I really is the funnest car I have ever owned and so many possibilities for the Imprezas

You change your rims Townie to those black ones? Swore they were chrome, but I could have been trippin


Barn, you had me there for a minute....I was like "Damnnnnnn pimpin" :lol:



Barn those RS5's are pretty sweet looking cars. Not a fan of Audi by any means but do like the way those cars look. Them and the R8. Good luck if you get one :up:

Believe it or not, over on the Camaro5 forum, the WRX seems to be main rival for the Camaro V6. I've always thought the WRX was quicker but looking at figures and times on-line, then seeing them in action on YouTube. I was surprised they aren't quicker. Seems to me, once they are modified they can be very quick.

But usually the older WRX's seem to pick on the Camaro V6 guys. Usually they get stomped by the SS or ZL1's if they race them. I'm sure the new WRX's are a lot quicker and more in the Camaro SS range now.

I will say this from first hand knowledge. That a 2006 WRX lightly modified beat my Camaro(V6) from a dig but I kept the front end of my car in the WRX's rear bumper. However, from a roll on race my Camaro left the WRX for dead. Especially going 2nd to 3rd. Once the V6 gets rolling it's actually got some serious grunt for what it is. It's still no monster in terms of out right speed but I'm pleasantly surprised by how quick the little V6 is.

Oh yeah, here's my lady as she sits now. Done a few upgrades to make the car look the way a Camaro should.


I'd race with you Townie just for the hell of it. I don't care if I lose(I'm sure I would against the 355i), just love running cars every now and then. Something different from the bike and road courses.

P.S.

If any ricers(i.e. Subie's) or V8's(Camaro SS/ZL1's) wants to pick on my little V6 lady(believe me I get so much shit from people for driving a V6 Camaro), I always recommend that they tackle her two wheel sister first :D

here they are after a nice bath.... Yeah I think they just have a lot of possibilities for mods and different years which have different engines and tunes so they are across the board on power. My buddy had a STI with over 500HP and that thing was sick...until he could not pass emissions anymore....issues I had with my last Eclipse too.

Oh yeah I ain't about to bet no money on these races but would be fun I think. I just have a feeling it would come down to the launch most time...guess he has paddle shifters so would be more on my manual transmission launches....I burn the clutch and can get sick luanches; instant boost :lol:

Nice Camaro man :up:



Here is mine:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/bulldog420/NewRims_zps22d7a57a.jpg

[#1Townie]

Yeah bro that's why I was shocked to see that post about only getting 100hp after a 15k ticket. I think on a dead stop launch the wrx would be a challenge. If doing the rolling start I don't think the wrx has much of a chance.

Low end power is a bit how doni say.... Lacking but once moving she goes. And fast.

Na man same rims. This winter the rims are going in for paint. I'm going to do a intake and exhaust. The crome around the windows is going. Doing black BMW badge. Sound system will get a boost. Nothing too major.

[~Barn~]

That is a pretty nice looking 'Maro TBK. The only thing that would make it look more beastly would be a honking V8 under the hood. :p

[bulldog]

Yeah bro that's why I was shocked to see that post about only getting 100hp after a 15k ticket. I think on a dead stop launch the wrx would be a challenge. If doing the rolling start I don't think the wrx has much of a chance.

Low end power is a bit how doni say.... Lacking but once moving she goes. And fast.

Na man same rims. This winter the rims are going in for paint. I'm going to do a intake and exhaust. The crome around the windows is going. Doing black BMW badge. Sound system will get a boost. Nothing too major. If you are interested I can ask him, but I am 99% sure he said he just bought the tuner (or maybe a chip) and unleashed major HP. We even talked about this race yesterday and first thing he asked was "is he stock or does he have a chip, because if he has a chip he will easily win, but without it they are pretty close". This is the same guy that had the 500+hp STI so I trust him. F*cker now has that BMW 535 MSport.....his brother has a BMW M6.

I must have been tripping then....I like those black rims. That guy with M6 did same as you pretty much...blacked out most of it and looks awesome.

I ungraded the sound system on mine. Came with a pretty nice Touchscreen with Navigation so I figured out how to use a LC2II to pull RCA outputs. Took out most the stock speakers and replaced them with Infinity Kappas and JL Audios. Then ran a set of edge driven Kappa tweeters powered by my amp in kick panels and used other side of amp to power my titanium Infinity Kappa 10" woofer. Finished it all up with Dynamat throughout car....installed it all myself including power wires to amp and all. Even installed a woofer control so I can bump when I want to...may be the best system I have made to date. All bolted down to stop the thieves

[The Black Knight]

That is a pretty nice looking 'Maro TBK. The only thing that would make it look more beastly would be a honking V8 under the hood. :p

Oh yeah of course man. A big beastly fire breathing V8 is way cooler than my effeminate V6. Hahahaha, I've heard all Barn. Never gets old.

Apparently on the Camaro5 forum if it ain't a V8 you ain't a man type thing. The V6 vs V8 debates on that forun always flare up.

[~Barn~]

Egh... Honestly I say drive (and own) what you dig. I was just taking a free swipe at you, since you said you were kinda used to it. It'll be my only one, promise. =)

I wasn't kidding about what I think you've done to it though. Looks really good.

[The Black Knight]

Egh... Honestly I say drive (and own) what you dig. I was just taking a free swipe at you, since you said you were kinda used to it. It'll be my only one, promise. =)

I wasn't kidding about what I think you've done to it though. Looks really good.

Oh it's all good mang. I knew you were foolin about. Yeah I was commenting about the Camaro5 forum I'm on. Lots of those guys on there are dicks. They have this mentality of V8 and V8 only. I've found it rather humorous that most of them can't comprehend the "Horsepower Per Liter" concept. I've gone round and round with them about the efficiency of the 3.6L V6 compared to their 6.0L V8's. My puny V6 is only 40hp shy of achieving the magical 100hp per liter benchmark that many performance engine builders are after. The SS Camaro can only muster a yawnfest of 71hp per liter. Granted the SS Camaro's are quicker because of their extra hp and prodigious torque compared to my V6. But I'm kind of not impressed with their 71hp per liter. I'm very proud of the V6 Chevrolet has developed and 90hp per liter is amazing in and of itself, regardless of how quick the car actually is.

I even had one guy tell me he didn't even know what I was talking about. Said, he'd never heard of the "horsepower per liter" concept. I'm thinking to myself, time to turn off "The Dukes of Hazard" re-runs and shelf the whole "Merica!" mindset. To realize that the rest of the modern motorsport world looks at performance figures in a completely different light. I guess it's what irritates me with most of the American car owner guys on Camaro5. I imagine most of them sitting around drinking PBR, yelling wooo doggie!! while humping their sisters and dreaming about their manly V8's.

Oh yeah, someone on the site asked if any of the Camaro5 members also rode motorcycles(no this wasn't me). After several of us posted up pics of our rides(many of them are Harley guys, a few of us on their are Sportbike riders). Those same inbred d-bags showed up in that thread commenting of how Harley's are the sh*t and us Sportbike riders are going to die on our bikes.

It's why I mainly hang out in the V6 sub-forums on the site. Most of the V6 guys are just looking to upgrade their cars and pretty level headed owners. I've yet to see a d-bag V6 owner. You can tell some of them are green horn drivers(lots of young guys getting V6's as their first car).

I'm with you, I say drive what you want and enjoy driving it. People love driving what they have because it means something to them. I can tell you this much, if I can ever get my hands on a Ferrari 308GT, I'd be one happy man. It's not the fastest Ferrari(slow in comparison to most Ferrari's), it certainly isn't the most cutting edge(we're talking 70's tech). But it's the car Magnum P.I. drove and I fell in love with that car when I was a kid. I would love to own a 308 and be very proud to drive a car that meant so much to me in my youth.

Thanks on compliments on what I've done to the car. It's taken a little time to get it the way I wanted. I went with the ZL1 wheels because there was a ZL1 at the dealership when I bought my V6 and I loved the wheels that came on the ZL1's. The C5 Corvette wheels I had on the car last year were nice but just didn't do the car justice. The 17" fronts and 18" rears were nice and nothing to sneeze at but they didn't fill the fenders at all and made the Camaro look a little awkward. The 20" ZL1 wheels are made directly for the Camaro and fill in the wheel wells perfectly.

Here's my lady on the day I picked her up:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/IMG_20130405_182544_794_zps0008c4b8.jpg

here with the Vette wheels:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/IMG_20130502_171112_342_zps99016e61.jpg

And present day:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/CamaroHashMarks_zpsbfbd0532.jpg

Oh yeah, I did the rotors red with caliper paint.

[The Black Knight]

Nice Camaro man :up:



Here is mine:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/bulldog420/NewRims_zps22d7a57a.jpg

Nice Rex man!! :up:

[~Barn~]

<Snip...> Thanks on compliments on what I've done to the car. It's taken a little time to get it the way I wanted. <Snip...>

Yeah man, the personal touches have really transformed it. Those stock wheels, I have to admit, are pretty hideous - so job well done there. The graphic is subtle and tasteful. I like the window tint.

The only thing left to do (if it were mine :D ) would be to find clear - or smoked if you're into that kind of thing - marker lenses for the front blinkers. Then just put amber colored lamps behind them. :up:

[Slo]

Ive had several cars on this list, 135i, sti, 2 evo's, 370z, g35c, 03 cobra, s2000 turbo, TBSS.....

The sti and wrx's if just BPU'd will fall on their face at 100mph give or take..... Your 335i will keep pulling away from there bad. Once past the launch, your car should catch them and keep creeping, but the faster you go, the faster they will fall back.

[Ezzzzy1]

I have an RDX that will give all yall a run for yo money :eyebrows:

[Captain Obvious]

I missed the original, so lets see, here goes....

GMR - yeah right " S60R. Can't go wrong with a Vo!" Very sexy cars but royal PITA to pay for repairs and it is always something. Loved the looks but after 90k miles they just become maintenance queens. At least mine did.

BlackKnight/TOwnie. Black vs other. sure dead sexy but I would rather drive that have to wash. Pearl white may not be as glamorous but less time fiddling, more time with driving other stuff. And hiding scratches etc is no effort.

BlackKnight. you shut your pie hole! " If any ricers(i.e. Subie's) " We are not all that way. I've never owned a pair of white rimmed sunglasses. Confession, I wanted a Camaro when I first saw they were bringing them back with a short body, but it just doesn't fit the needs. AWD, 4 Dr... Yours does look sexy tho. I took this in 2008? at the Atlanta car show.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/100_0039.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/100_0039.jpg.html)

Townie, I didn't see the original thread. Baseline for 335i TT is $44k. WRX is $26. What the intent of the comparison of apples to oranges?

I do wish the WRX had a 6. Sure, Boxer this n that, but a turbo 6 would be amazing. I haven't had any serious street light to street light opportunities. I would guess the stache scares everyone away these days.

4 dr? need 2 kid seats? what? Good luck with that Snr Camaro... :)


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg.html)

[GMR]

I've considered a 335i, but all this thread has taught me is "f'k it" and get an M5

[#1Townie]

I missed the original, so lets see, here goes....

GMR - yeah right " S60R. Can't go wrong with a Vo!" Very sexy cars but royal PITA to pay for repairs and it is always something. Loved the looks but after 90k miles they just become maintenance queens. At least mine did.

BlackKnight/TOwnie. Black vs other. sure dead sexy but I would rather drive that have to wash. Pearl white may not be as glamorous but less time fiddling, more time with driving other stuff. And hiding scratches etc is no effort.

BlackKnight. you shut your pie hole! " If any ricers(i.e. Subie's) " We are not all that way. I've never owned a pair of white rimmed sunglasses. Confession, I wanted a Camaro when I first saw they were bringing them back with a short body, but it just doesn't fit the needs. AWD, 4 Dr... Yours does look sexy tho. I took this in 2008? at the Atlanta car show.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/100_0039.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/100_0039.jpg.html)

Townie, I didn't see the original thread. Baseline for 335i TT is $44k. WRX is $26. What the intent of the comparison of apples to oranges?

I do wish the WRX had a 6. Sure, Boxer this n that, but a turbo 6 would be amazing. I haven't had any serious street light to street light opportunities. I would guess the stache scares everyone away these days.

4 dr? need 2 kid seats? what? Good luck with that Snr Camaro... :)


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg.html)


Original post was just a little comment about the Rex vs the 335i. So to keep a simple conversation going I started the new thread.


I actually really like sub's so I'm not bashing them if you think that is what has happened. Just a simple comparison.

While the BMW has a much higher price tag let's look at it from a all form aspect. Yes the 335i that I have has the n54 block. It is a 6 with twin turbos. From all the stats on launch and 0-60 the Rex takes it. Not by much but it does.


On the other hand the 335i isn't really a racer. I more enjoy the relaxing drive I get to enjoy. I have a option to shift myself through the paddles or just out it in auto sit back and listen to some really chill music.

All in all you are correct. Apples and oranges. Two very different worlds with different price tags. Both are amazing cars and both have their ups and downs.

[#1Townie]

If you are interested I can ask him, but I am 99% sure he said he just bought the tuner (or maybe a chip) and unleashed major HP. We even talked about this race yesterday and first thing he asked was "is he stock or does he have a chip, because if he has a chip he will easily win, but without it they are pretty close". This is the same guy that had the 500+hp STI so I trust him. F*cker now has that BMW 535 MSport.....his brother has a BMW M6.

I must have been tripping then....I like those black rims. That guy with M6 did same as you pretty much...blacked out most of it and looks awesome.

I ungraded the sound system on mine. Came with a pretty nice Touchscreen with Navigation so I figured out how to use a LC2II to pull RCA outputs. Took out most the stock speakers and replaced them with Infinity Kappas and JL Audios. Then ran a set of edge driven Kappa tweeters powered by my amp in kick panels and used other side of amp to power my titanium Infinity Kappa 10" woofer. Finished it all up with Dynamat throughout car....installed it all myself including power wires to amp and all. Even installed a woofer control so I can bump when I want to...may be the best system I have made to date. All bolted down to stop the thieves

Yeah I would like to hear what he has done. Not too many people in my circles that have or have had this car. I have a old friend that is a BMW tech at the dealership in reno. I have all the typical issues noted and what to watch for. But for performance I'm more just looking to get a little more power but to sound more aggressive.

[sag]

well not all of the 15 grand was power adders. the goal wasnt power either. this was 5 years ago, parts were in short supply and expensive. adds up quickly when youre talking over 3grand in quality suspension components, 2 grand wheels and tires, grand for fmic, grand for downpipes, over a grand for the rest of the exhaust, grand in software/tuning, also did an oem M3 front bumper. misc stuff like intakes and racing oil cooler/beefier trans cooler plus labor. dude is at least 70 years old, it wasnt a broke dick lets go fast for cheap build. car was brand new and an absolute dialed in, responsive rocketship of a street car

if it makes yall feel better, we did a 12k+ dollar ticket on an evo 8 and it left with 720 to the wheels :)

[Vitesse]

I just sold my 2008 335xi. I had the COBB AccessPort, AWE blowoff valves, BMS DCI intake, UUC Corsa exhaust, and a bunch of cosmetic stuff. Owned it for just over 4 years and loved every minute! You get a lot of bang for your buck with performance mods on this platform.

[The Black Knight]

Yeah man, the personal touches have really transformed it. Those stock wheels, I have to admit, are pretty hideous - so job well done there. The graphic is subtle and tasteful. I like the window tint.

The only thing left to do (if it were mine :D ) would be to find clear - or smoked if you're into that kind of thing - marker lenses for the front blinkers. Then just put amber colored lamps behind them. :up:
Yeah the stock wheels are for Winter driving. I figure if should the unfortunate happen and I slide off the road and smash a curb. Those steelies should fare far better than my ZL1 wheels.

I've had several guys on the Camaro5 forum recommend the tint side markers. Something to consider in the future.



I missed the original, so lets see, here goes....

GMR - yeah right " S60R. Can't go wrong with a Vo!" Very sexy cars but royal PITA to pay for repairs and it is always something. Loved the looks but after 90k miles they just become maintenance queens. At least mine did.

BlackKnight/TOwnie. Black vs other. sure dead sexy but I would rather drive that have to wash. Pearl white may not be as glamorous but less time fiddling, more time with driving other stuff. And hiding scratches etc is no effort.

BlackKnight. you shut your pie hole! " If any ricers(i.e. Subie's) " We are not all that way. I've never owned a pair of white rimmed sunglasses. Confession, I wanted a Camaro when I first saw they were bringing them back with a short body, but it just doesn't fit the needs. AWD, 4 Dr... Yours does look sexy tho. I took this in 2008? at the Atlanta car show.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/100_0039.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/100_0039.jpg.html)

Townie, I didn't see the original thread. Baseline for 335i TT is $44k. WRX is $26. What the intent of the comparison of apples to oranges?

I do wish the WRX had a 6. Sure, Boxer this n that, but a turbo 6 would be amazing. I haven't had any serious street light to street light opportunities. I would guess the stache scares everyone away these days.

4 dr? need 2 kid seats? what? Good luck with that Snr Camaro... :)


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/funksouljon/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/funksouljon/media/WRX%20images%20videos/DSC_0558_zps0084aa76.jpg.html)

HAHA!! yeah dude I know lots of people that drive them don't fit the typical "white sunglasses, flat brim hat" mold. There sure a lot that do though. FWIW, one of my good friends has been a huge Subaru guy for years. Yet, he has never fit the stereotypical image that most of them have. And believe me, I love to bag on my own Camaro brethren as much as I do on the ricer contingent.


Nice Subie man. :up:

[Drano]

Yeah, TBK the V8 guys can eat a fat one. Your V6 is pushing a very respectable amount of HP. Hell, it makes slightly less than the SS did in 2002. As for me, I had a 1989 Camaro RS with the 2.8L V6 making a whopping 135 HP! Back then, yeah, having the V6 pretty much meant you were the step child. Even though mine was gorgeous and got complimented all the time, I always wished I had ripped out the V6 and built a supercharged 305 to swap (yes, 305, not 350). But, in your case, haters can hate all they want, you have a nice car, man!

This is my baby, though the wife uses it more than I do nowadays
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/Moniras/Picture103_zps002d87ec.jpg

2004 A4 1.8T with APR Stage I upgrade. It's not the fastest thing, and if it was a 6 speed I'd do a lot more. Sadly, I've heard bad things happen to Tiptronics when attached to a lot of power. :(

[The Black Knight]

Yeah, TBK the V8 guys can eat a fat one. You're V6 is pushing a very respectable amount of HP. Hell, it makes slightly less than the SS did in 2002. As for me, I had a 1989 Camaro RS with the 2.8L V6 making a whopping 135 HP! Back then, yeah, having the V6 pretty much meant you were the step child. Even though mine was gorgeous and got complimented all the time, I always wished I had ripped out the V6 and built a supercharged 305 to swap (yes, 305, not 350). But, in your case, haters can hate all they want, you have a nice car, man!

This is my baby, though the wife uses it more than I do nowadays
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/Moniras/Picture103_zps002d87ec.jpg

2004 A4 1.8T with APR Stage I upgrade. It's not the fastest thing, and if it was a 6 speed I'd do a lot more. Sadly, I've heard bad things happen to Tiptronics when attached to a lot of power. :(

Very nice ride man!!! :up:


HAHA yeah I had a 1983 Camaro in highschool. Looked nice, went absolutely NO WHERE!! when you mashed the throttle. It had the ground pounding 2.8L V6 HAHAHA!! with it's 110hp it shook the earth. Just trying to accelerate with normal traffic was a chore in that thing.

[#1Townie]

Lots of very sweet rides around here.

[Captain Obvious]

Original post was just a little comment about the Rex vs the 335i. So to keep a simple conversation going I started the new thread....


..... Both are amazing cars and both have their ups and downs.


Thats fair, I didn't see the original so didn't know the motivation to compare.

I haven't had the chance to drive a 335i, but based on being BMW, sure it cups your rear as you ride around, the Volvo sure did. I do miss some of the luxury features of the Volvo but knew I was giving that up for what drives like a huge go cart on steroids. For .02 I considered the STI, but just too hard edged for me to justify a race car on the street as a commuter. As I said, some days I really wish they had a turbo 6 for the Subie, that would be a screamer.

The Audi was a consideration but after the Volvo repair / maintenance bills, to hell with European luxury........ I want to kit 100k on the Subie so no major mods in my future.

[Captain Obvious]

Nice Subie man. :up:

Thanks. A white wagon is a bit boring in comparison, but cops never really bother me and I do like to speed around. 3 trips to DTC a week gets old doing 70mph....

The most recent rims you have on the Camaro are by far the best of the 3 images you posted.

[Captain Obvious]

Yeah, TBK the V8 guys can eat a fat one. Your V6 is pushing a very respectable amount of HP. Hell, it makes slightly less than the SS did in 2002. As for me, I had a 1989 Camaro RS with the 2.8L V6 making a whopping 135 HP! Back then, yeah, having the V6 pretty much meant you were the step child. Even though mine was gorgeous and got complimented all the time, I always wished I had ripped out the V6 and built a supercharged 305 to swap (yes, 305, not 350). But, in your case, haters can hate all they want, you have a nice car, man!



Theres always someone who will come along with a bigger, faster, shiner, better <_________> and want to make sure you know it is. If that <______> was the only thing in my life, it might hurt my feelings.

[#1Townie]

Okay Mr bulldog running tonight. Have a couple of Rex's I'm playing with. Let you know how it turns out.

[The Black Knight]

Okay Mr bulldog running tonight. Have a couple of Rex's I'm playing with. Let you know how it turns out.

Hope you got your two bottles of NOS by tonight. Make sure your floor pan doesn't just fall out from the sheer epic speed you'll be achieving. Remember visualize the win. Everything else will become blurry and form a tunnel around you. All you'll see is the finish line, either that or the guy on the Harley doing warp speed and another guy on a jetbike chasing him down. When it's all said and done, for that 10 seconds or less, you'll be free.







:D

yep I did it, referenced three of the lamest, crappiest movies ever.

[Drano]

Hope you got your two bottles of NOS by tonight. Make sure your floor pan doesn't just fall out from the sheer epic speed you'll be achieving. Remember visualize the win. Everything else will become blurry and form a tunnel around you. All you'll see is the finish line, either that or the guy on the Harley doing warp speed and another guy on a jetbike chasing him down. When it's all said and done, for that 10 seconds or less, you'll be free.

As long as he's not granny shifting, but double-clutching like he should! And two bottles of NOS!? That's enough NOS to blow himself up!

[madvlad]

Lucky he didn't blow the welds on the intake lol

[#1Townie]

Blaaahahahaha. No clutch. Paddle shifters. Sucks didn't know I was going to need a helemet if I hit 13.99. Been sand bagging.

[#1Townie]

Well there were a couple of subies running 11 out there. Nice rides. I spent most of the night figuring out what worked and what didn't. Paddle shift or leave it auto. Using tc or not. Trying to get the power up with out spinning the tires.

My reaction time SUCKED! Maybe lack of sleep or I'm just getting old. But my fastest time was a 14.1 with a reaction time of of around .7. The stock subies I played with all ran a low 15. Have some video I will post later.

[Aaron]

Reaction time doesn't mean anything unless you're on a pro tree, and I highly doubt that was the case. You're actually smarter to wait until the green light, and roll on that, because R/T has no affect on your times, but if you red light it tossed the run and you won't know until after. My R/T is normally right around a second. The 1/4mi ET/trap and the 60' are the only times that matter! Your 335's trans is really strong at the track, quicker than the manuals for sure. But 1 wheel drive launches suck, so it's time for an LSD!

As as for the Camaro V6 making as much power as the 8 did in 2002, not quite. My Dad's car put 332 to the rear wheels bone stock, and ran a 12.8. Consider the 5th gens added like 1,000lbs, and they're no rocket ship. They're quick, no doubt, but a 4th gen SS will have no problem walking a 5th gen SS. Can't say the same for the 6's, the 5th gen will take that shitty 3.8 any day.

I actually really like the high feature 3.6, it's one of the candidates my my next Fiero. Between it and a LS4. They weigh about the same, make the same power, and will put down the same fuel mileage. It comes down to ease of swap, and ease to hit 450-500hp. The 3.6 may not be much in a 4400lb Camaro, but in a 2800lb Fiero it should do ok.

[#1Townie]

Well true unless you are talking actual heads up racing. And at that point your reaction time is extremely important.


But yes when you're just talking the clock you are 100% correct good sir.


As for the v6 vs v8 we had a six cylinder out there running very low 13s almost 12s. It was epic.

[Aaron]

Exactly, heads up aka a pro tree. But most tracks don't run those unless they're running competitions.

Wow it was matching a stock SS time. That is epic *roll eyes*

[#1Townie]

Ummmm. You really want to come in here and be a dick? Have we not already been down this road? Did you even bother reading this thread before posting?

[Aaron]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but low 13s just isn't epic anymore. We're in a world where a showroom bike can run low 9s and a showroom Vette can pull high 10s. My BMW was a quick car when it was new, today, it's anemic. And while a low 13 isn't anemic, it's far from epic. You're BMW can run low 11s with $1000 under the hood.

[Aaron]

Drano, just read that you wrote "slightly less." I'll buy that, they are at 321 and a LS1 was rated (Although significantly under-rated, at 345). So that is slightly less, just the weight that kills it.

[salsashark]

Oh yeah of course man. A big beastly fire breathing V8 is way cooler than my effeminate V6. Hahahaha, I've heard all Barn. Never gets old.

Apparently on the Camaro5 forum if it ain't a V8 you ain't a man type thing. The V6 vs V8 debates on that forun always flare up.

:lol:

Flashbacks from my former v6 mustang (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?40923-Bye-bye-Maggie&highlight=). I wish I still had a fun run-around car.

My F150's nice, but it's a bitch to get around in DC in my "little" ecoboost girlie truck. (with any luck, this will soon change)

Like you, I've come to the point that I just don't really care.

[birchyboy]

:lol:

Flashbacks from my former v6 mustang (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?40923-Bye-bye-Maggie&highlight=). I wish I still had a fun run-around car.

My F150's nice, but it's a bitch to get around in DC in my "little" ecoboost girlie truck. (with any luck, this will soon change)

Like you, I've come to the point that I just don't really care.

How do you like the Ecoboost overall? Been considering one for towing the travel trailer with.

[The Black Knight]

:lol:

Flashbacks from my former v6 mustang (http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?40923-Bye-bye-Maggie&highlight=). I wish I still had a fun run-around car.

My F150's nice, but it's a bitch to get around in DC in my "little" ecoboost girlie truck. (with any luck, this will soon change)

Like you, I've come to the point that I just don't really care.
HAHA I hear ya man. I love my V6 Camaro. Love the look, love the fuel mileage(gets 21mpg's in town) best ever was 32mpg on highway. Has plenty of power to get out of its own way and pass others on the road. Yeah it's not warp speed fast but then again I've never been in a car that was warp speed fast. Nothing compared to any of my Liter bikes. I've been in a few fast cars but they are "nice" at best in terms of being fast.

I will say this that the 323hp 3.6 LFX V6 in my Camaro is superb. Compared to my 1995 Z/28 LT1 that was rated at 275hp, it's not much slower. I would love to have run them together on a roll on race. From the dig my Camaro is slow to move. However, from a roll on it's quicker than expected. I've caught a few Subie's, Camaro V8's and even one C5 Corvette by surprise during a roll race. The guy in the Corvette had the best reaction, the look on his face that some V6 Camaro was right in his rear wheel the whole time was worth it.

Like I say, from a dig all of the cars I've gone up against would beat me. From a roll on, it's a whole different story. I've always felt "from the dig" races are a combination of power and weight. Whereas roll on races are more about whose got the most power or better power delivery.

[salsashark]

How do you like the Ecoboost overall? Been considering one for towing the travel trailer with.

It's been a great truck. The ecoboost is great.

- good MPGs (when driving conservatively). I average 17 day to day. And get in the low 20s dragging bikes down to South Carolina. Compared to the 5.9L ram, easily 50% improvement.
- Performance is fine. Lots o' torque, and you can really feel the turbos when you stomp on it... however, please see previous point. MPGs take the hit for this.
- I don't think I'd want to pull a monster trailer, but a popup, or a bike trailer, no problems.

I also have to admit, the quality of the truck is second to none. I've looked at other vehicles and nothing (in the same genre) is anywhere near. I was in CO over the 4th of July and borrowed my dad's avalanche. He bought it about 6 months before I got my truck and I was shocked at how poorly the truck is aging.

Got a wild hair up my ass a few months ago and test drove some subarus... looking for something small. They felt link rinky dink toys. Little rattle box vehicles. After getting back into the truck, I can see where the extra $$s went.

I don't necessarily think the FX trim level was necessary, but the creature comforts are nice. Just like grip warmers on a bike... Once you get heated seats, you never want to go back! There's something to be said to fire up the remote start while getting ready to head out and having a nice warm truck (seats included) by the time you get the windows scraped...

[Drano]

As as for the Camaro V6 making as much power as the 8 did in 2002, not quite. My Dad's car put 332 to the rear wheels bone stock, and ran a 12.8. Consider the 5th gens added like 1,000lbs, and they're no rocket ship. They're quick, no doubt, but a 4th gen SS will have no problem walking a 5th gen SS. Can't say the same for the 6's, the 5th gen will take that shitty 3.8 any day.


Drano, just read that you wrote "slightly less." I'll buy that, they are at 321 and a LS1 was rated (Although significantly under-rated, at 345). So that is slightly less, just the weight that kills it.

Alright, well lets clarify a few things here. You're claiming that your dad's "bone stock" SS is putting out 332 to the wheels. Then we talk about it via text and you clarify that the SS is actually running the SLP Performance pack, which, in your opinion, is still stock since it came from the factory that way. The SLP package was not done "at the factory" it is an aftermarket mod (done at SLP's facilities) using LS6 components. That immediately spoils any "bone stock" assumption you try to make. If your dad's Camaro was bone stock, it would not have A/C, t-tops, TC, and so on. In fact, the SS package is actually a Z28 option. Bone stock, indeed... :jerkoff:

From the factory, the SS Camaro was rated at 330hp at the crank and was pushing around 300 to the wheels. While the SLP pack dramatically improved on that, it was not something Joe Schmoe was likely to encounter on the showroom floor of his dealership unless a buyer had backed out after placing the order.

http://image.gmhightechperformance.com/f/12409204/0902gmhtp_22_z+2002_chevy_camaro_slp_performance

Your dad's SS is a highly modified machine that happened to be an acceptable, factory-warrantied option. Far from bone stock, my friend.

So, let's say that your penis is normally 4.5 inches in length, but using a penis-pump you're able to get it to a nice 5 inches. Technically, it's still your penis, you just *cough* inflated your numbers a little bit.

[#1Townie]

I'm not trying to be a dick, but low 13s just isn't epic anymore. We're in a world where a showroom bike can run low 9s and a showroom Vette can pull high 10s. My BMW was a quick car when it was new, today, it's anemic. And while a low 13 isn't anemic, it's far from epic. You're BMW can run low 11s with $1000 under the hood.


Well I guess it just depends on the money you have. I guess if you have 80k to drop on a car you're cool. But then again you just a honda civic compared to a lambo or any other "really fast " cars.

The slomero I mean camero is a nice car but would never hold its own against an Italian monster. Hell even my BMW would be looked at as a old used pos in Beverly hills or something like that.

[The Black Knight]

Well I guess it just depends on the money you have. I guess if you have 80k to drop on a car you're cool. But then again you just a honda civic compared to a lambo or any other "really fast " cars.

The slomero I mean camero is a nice car but would never hold its own against an Italian monster. Hell even my BMW would be looked at as a old used pos in Beverly hills or something like that.

"nice car, what's the retail on one of those??"

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/fast-and-furious_zps7546a766.jpg

"more than you can afford pal, Ferrari!!" rev, rev rev!!

[Drano]

"hey what's the pricetag on that thing??"

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/fast-and-furious_zps7546a766.jpg

"smoke em"

ZOMG TBK, you have a serious love-affair with The Fast and the Furious. You might want to get that checked! :lol:

[#1Townie]

"nice car, what's the retail on one of those??"

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/fast-and-furious_zps7546a766.jpg

"more than you can afford pal, Ferrari!!" rev, rev rev!!

Hahahaha I wasn't even including Ferrari in my mind. Lol.

[The Black Knight]

ZOMG TBK, you have a serious love-affair with The Fast and the Furious. You might want to get that checked! :lol:

Dude between that movie, Torque and Biker Boyz, they have some of the best and cheesiest lines ever. A couple of my friends and I are always quoting Fast and Furious. I can entertain myself for hours just referencing those crappy movies.

:D

Regardless of the fact that I really do dislike Fast and Furious, it has a soft spot for me because it's basically Point Break with Cars. Point Break is an epic movie, so the fact that Fast and Furious ripped it off just makes it that much better and crappier. If you don't believe me, watch Point Break and then Fast and Furious right after, you'll see the correlation between the two films. None of them beat Torque though, that movie is hands down one of the crappiest movies ever.



P.S.
Not long after Paul Walker had passed, I saw a bumper sticker on some girls car that was riced out that read:

#rememberthebuster

I about died laughing(not that Paul Walker had died but because the sticker referenced a line in the movie).

[#1Townie]

Dude between that movie, Torque and Biker Boyz, they have some of the best and cheesiest lines ever. A couple of my friends and I are always quoting Fast and Furious. I can entertain myself for hours just referencing those crappy movies.

:D

Regardless of the fact that I really do dislike Fast and Furious, it has a soft spot for me because it's basically Point Break with Cars. Point Break is an epic movie, so the fact that Fast and Furious ripped it off just makes it that much better and crappier. If you don't believe me, watch Point Break and then Fast and Furious right after, you'll see the correlation between the two films. None of them beat Torque though, that movie is hands down one of the crappiest movies ever.



P.S.
Not long after Paul Walker had passed, I saw a bumper sticker on some girls car that was riced out that read:

#rememberthebuster

I about died laughing(not that Paul Walker had died but because the sticker referenced a line in the movie).

Because the buster brought me home! Blaahahahaha

[Drano]

Dude between that movie, Torque and Biker Boyz, they have some of the best and cheesiest lines ever. A couple of my friends and I are always quoting Fast and Furious. I can entertain myself for hours just referencing those crappy movies.

:D

Regardless of the fact that I really do dislike Fast and Furious, it has a soft spot for me because it's basically Point Break with Cars. Point Break is an epic movie, so the fact that Fast and Furious ripped it off just makes it that much better and crappier. If you don't believe me, watch Point Break and then Fast and Furious right after, you'll see the correlation between the two films. None of them beat Torque though, that movie is hands down one of the crappiest movies ever.



P.S.
Not long after Paul Walker had passed, I saw a bumper sticker on some girls car that was riced out that read:

#rememberthebuster

I about died laughing(not that Paul Walker had died but because the sticker referenced a line in the movie).

lol, I have the same affliction. I just bought the 6-movie box-set! Yeah, I know the 7th is on the way, but when I want to sit down and watch a cheesy, 1-liner action movie, I want to have some options. 8)

[The Black Knight]

lol, I have the same affliction. I just bought the 6-movie box-set! Yeah, I know the 7th is on the way, but when I want to sit down and watch a cheesy, 1-liner action movie, I want to have some options. 8)

Fast and Furious, Torque, Point Break, Tombstone, Wyatt Earp, Open Range and Unforgiven are my all time favorite movies to reference. Oh yeah and Commando, only line I use from the movie is the line Bennett speaks. "you're soldiers make me laugh, if Matrix was here, he'd laugh too." I'm always saying that HAHAHA, if something makes me laugh, I'll say, "if Matrix was here, he'd laugh too."

[Drano]

Oh don't forget Gran Torino! "Get off my lawn!" and "Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have fucked with? That's me." Totally epic!

[sag]

my roommates e36 ran a 12.3 today in full autoX/roadcourse trim, lol lookout!
https://scontent-a-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1459671_10101304850820483_1277459408_n.jpg?oh=ac4e b119e2b8c7a18117d60c86059bf0&oe=5469ACE4

[#1Townie]

my roommates e36 ran a 12.3 today in full autoX/roadcourse trim, lol lookout!
https://scontent-a-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1459671_10101304850820483_1277459408_n.jpg?oh=ac4e b119e2b8c7a18117d60c86059bf0&oe=5469ACE4

That thing is clean!!!

[#1Townie]

Oh don't forget Gran Torino! "Get off my lawn!" and "Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have fucked with? That's me." Totally epic!

300. THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!