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BuckNasty
Fri Sep 5th, 2014, 10:48 PM
Anyone have any project cars for the track their working on around the denver area? Im getting kind of interested in building a car for like autocross or track or something. wanna see what im getting myself into. anyways lmk if you guys need help i dont know much and would like to know more. ill bring beer

#1Townie
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 08:36 AM
I'm not in co but I just started a build in a Honda civic I'm hoping will be extremely fast. Dropping a six cylinder in it and converting to Awd.

asp_125
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 08:54 AM
I've built a couple of cars for autocross before. If you're new to the sport, stay "stock" or buy one that's already built. Unless you are planning on spending the first season tinkering in the garage and testing instead of competing.

But if you are set on building, read the rule book before hacking up a car. Nothing worse than putting time and effort into a car that doesn't fit into a class or ends up being uncompetitive. Many newbs overbuild for their intended class and ending up bumping up into a class where they are competing against much better prepared cars.

Captain Obvious
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 10:45 AM
I'm not in co but I just started a build in a Honda civic I'm hoping will be extremely fast. Dropping a six cylinder in it and converting to Awd.

So why start with a Civic? Seems like a lot of extra work, esp to convert to AWD. Or just for the challenge?

No project car, but I do have a Grand Wagoneer. Been considering getting a Miata for some autocross but thats on the wish list. Apparently I have to finish or do something with the Jeep.

#1Townie
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 11:15 AM
So why start with a Civic? Seems like a lot of extra work, esp to convert to AWD. Or just for the challenge?

No project car, but I do have a Grand Wagoneer. Been considering getting a Miata for some autocross but thats on the wish list. Apparently I have to finish or do something with the Jeep.

The civic is my first car. I wrecked it when I was 18. Totaled it really. Rebuilt it and turned it into what I think was a nice car. After running nos and many other things blew the motor. Car has been sitting for the last 12 years.

Now I'm going to make it a point to make it a complete monster. Yes its going to be a ton of extra work but I'm doing something that many have plotted and gave up on.

Anyone can do a k20 or something along those lines and build it. Its been done over and over and over and over.

A rb26 in a civic. I have only seen pics and no laid out builds. You can find tons of forum posts about it costing too much or being too tough.

We have it planned out and it should be a very fun toy either in the quarter mile or on a road race.


Well and it will turn some heads. Lol.

#1Townie
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 11:37 AM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/nvrider/my%20pics/1012236d.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/nvrider/IMG_20140831_110948_843_zps06cae073.jpg

Captain Obvious
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 02:53 PM
Well and it will turn some heads. Lol.

LOL, yeah, people are going to go holy crap, look at that, he is insane to do all that work to it! Interesting project tho.

Aaron
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 03:26 PM
I've never been a fan of autox. It's boring to me, and you end up spending 6 hours working for 2 hours of driving. I'll take dedicated track days. I'm currently rebuilding my Pontiac Fiero and will be hitting up HPR later this month. If you want to come down to C Springs we're pulling the motor this weekend and you're free to come by.

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forums/showthread.php?53138-Updating-my-turbo-Fiero-for-track-duty

BuckNasty
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 06:24 PM
Awd civic turbo fiero! Those both sound like a lot of fun. Aaron sorry for replying so late I'd love to come by sometime and check out your car and talk to you a little about track days n stuff.

Thanks for the heads up on starting out guys I could definitely see how people would make the mistake of overbuilding

asp_125
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 07:40 PM
Autox is the gateway drug to track days. :D

Aaron
Sat Sep 6th, 2014, 11:46 PM
If you want to drive down we'll be working on it most of the day tomorrow. Just shoot me a PM you're more than welcome. As far as the best track day cars, it's hard to say. You cannot beat C5/6/7 Corvettes for performance per dollar spent, but they are expensive to get into. BMW 3 series are popular, and 4th generation Camaros and Firebirds can be quite brutal as well. I chose the Fiero because I've always loved them, I love driving it, and they are a lot of fun. But they aren't the best platform to build any form of performance car with.

#1Townie
Sun Sep 7th, 2014, 12:22 AM
If you want to drive down we'll be working on it most of the day tomorrow. Just shoot me a PM you're more than welcome. As far as the best track day cars, it's hard to say. You cannot beat C5/6/7 Corvettes for performance per dollar spent, but they are expensive to get into. BMW 3 series are popular, and 4th generation Camaros and Firebirds can be quite brutal as well. I chose the Fiero because I've always loved them, I love driving it, and they are a lot of fun. But they aren't the best platform to build any form of performance car with.

Oh when I'm done my civic will be stomping on vets. Buuuut it won't be a legal race car. So in won't be able to do traditional racing. But some of the races I'm going to be doing are the mountain races.

GMR
Sun Sep 7th, 2014, 06:02 AM
Oh when I'm done my civic will be stomping on vets. Buuuut it won't be a legal race car. So in won't be able to do traditional racing. But some of the races I'm going to be doing are the mountain races.


I'm kind of in the same boat as townie. Now that I have a truck and motorcycle to get me around, I plan on taking my 268k mile K24 TSX and putting some work into it since it's worth way more to me than anybody else and the thing won't die. Putting on headers and exhaust next, then will start consider supercharging but I'd really like to find somebody to fabricate a turbo build.

Aaron
Sun Sep 7th, 2014, 09:55 AM
That and after all is said and done it's still a Civic. If you like them though, more power to you.

I've always liked the TSX. Friend has one, and we drove the pissed out of it daily. Not only did it keep coming back for more, it still returned excellent gas mileage. I really dislike the FWD part however, it's going to be a never ending battle for traction, and not fun to drive on a track. Personally I'd run from a supercharger, and run right at a turbo. Are you capable and have the resources to fab the kit up yourself? I did that to mine and I'm glad I did.

#1Townie
Sun Sep 7th, 2014, 11:00 AM
Yeah turbo kits now days are for the most part pretty painless to install. With Google you can truly search everything you need to know/do with extreme details.


And yes it will be a civic shell sitting on around 700hp. Waiting for its next victom. Lol.

GMR
Sun Sep 7th, 2014, 11:32 AM
That and after all is said and done it's still a Civic. If you like them though, more power to you.

I've always liked the TSX. Friend has one, and we drove the pissed out of it daily. Not only did it keep coming back for more, it still returned excellent gas mileage. I really dislike the FWD part however, it's going to be a never ending battle for traction, and not fun to drive on a track. Personally I'd run from a supercharger, and run right at a turbo. Are you capable and have the resources to fab the kit up yourself? I did that to mine and I'm glad I did.

Yep, it served me 3+ years in the oilfield, survived for a few miles without oil when a dealer forgot to tighten an oil drain plug, had the ECU flashed and drive it through the redlline pretty consistently and it hasn't given me any reason to think it wouldn't go to 500k as is (not that I want it to).

FWD is a huge pain with traction and already is even though it's not too far from stock, but good for a ski car in the winter. The turbo will help keep its power going in the mountains (I think you were the one who was posting about that).

I don't have the time or resources to fabricate it, but I did find a kit that might fit pretty well with it. I need a good suggestion for a shop around here. Or if you wanted to pick it up as a project, I really want to learn and not just pay somebody to do the work but I've just been really short on time. Maybe that will change at some point.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Intercooler-Kit-for-04-08-Acura-TSX-K24-T04E-Manifold-Downpipe-Black-/181176441840?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2ef51bf0&vxp=mtr&autorefresh=true

Also might consider building the motor, but that seems pretty pointless for the numbers I'm going for (300 maybe 350whp). Or not?

Aaron
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 02:40 AM
I'm surprised I'm saying this, but that actually looks like a decent kit. It includes a lot of the components that you'd traditionally need to fabricate, which is a huge help.

Now if you're only looking for 350, that kit could probably support that but not much more. Except for the turbocharger they include, I doubt that would go anywhere north of 300. I think you'd definitely need a turbo upgrade. Personally I wouldn't even risk installing it with that turbo, but the rest of the components are worth it and some one will buy that turbo for a couple hundred. One thing that kit seems to lack is a return line, and it looks like the provisions for it aim to use a rubber line. That's bad, you'll want a stainless braided line.

GMR
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 11:57 AM
I'm pumped on it, going to pair it with the DW65c pump and have to pick out injectors. Stock is 310cc, I would think 600cc would be plenty but they offer up to 1300-2200cc. All I can do is take an educated guess on what to get, I'm sure there is a lot more to it though.
Good suggestion on the stainless braided line, but when I look at their site on turbos it looks like it is an option so hopefully I'll be able to add it on.
What do you think is wrong with the turbo besides being too small? I'm not going for big numbers, and since it would be my first boosted build I want to play it safer than sorry.
You were looking for projects earlier, is this something you have an urge to get into? I have no idea how long I'm looking at labor time (without the tuning), but I'm guessing around two solid days?

konichd
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 12:38 PM
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/303cycle/Wade/20140320_105213.jpg (http://s712.photobucket.com/user/303cycle/media/Wade/20140320_105213.jpg.html)

Building my GTO for a Drag/trackday car. Should be 600+ HP when its finished. Hotchkiss sway bars, BC coilovers, harrop rear end, DSS axles, Cquence rotors, Hawk Performance pads, Stainless lines, 1 pC driveshaft, Mcload clutch, 243 heads, MSD ignition. Really just have the motor left to build (Cam, headers, intake, TB)

Aaron
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 02:32 PM
I'm pumped on it, going to pair it with the DW65c pump and have to pick out injectors. Stock is 310cc, I would think 600cc would be plenty but they offer up to 1300-2200cc. All I can do is take an educated guess on what to get, I'm sure there is a lot more to it though.
Good suggestion on the stainless braided line, but when I look at their site on turbos it looks like it is an option so hopefully I'll be able to add it on.
What do you think is wrong with the turbo besides being too small? I'm not going for big numbers, and since it would be my first boosted build I want to play it safer than sorry.
You were looking for projects earlier, is this something you have an urge to get into? I have no idea how long I'm looking at labor time (without the tuning), but I'm guessing around two solid days?

You want your injectors to be running at about 80% duty cycle, I imagine 600 would be about perfect. Check the forums see what those guys say. Also, is your car a stick or an auto?

It's not just that the turbo is small, it's that it will be a cheap, inefficient, low quality turbo. So it's going to have much looser tolerances, and it won't last very long. And when it fails, it'll destroy your engine completely. And before it fails, it'll take a long time to spool, have slow response, super-heat your charge air, and still not put down very good numbers. I'd ask them if you could order the kit sans turbo, but with the stainless braided return and see how much it costs.

One downside of that kit is there is no provision for an external wastegate, it has to be internal. Internal gates take up less space, weigh less, and are much simpler to fabricate, but they are a big restriction, will result in longer spool times, and won't control boost as accurately. For what you're looking for however, I think an internal gate is perfectly acceptable.

This would be something I'd be interested in doing, and if you'd like to help that's cool too. 2 solid days on paper, in reality probably about a week. Something always goes wrong.

GMR
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 03:46 PM
Aaron, sent you a PM. I think it sent, but it doesn't show up in my sent folder so let me know if you didn't get it. Hopefully you did, it was rather lengthy..

GMR
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 03:48 PM
Might as well post some of the body of the email. Could be good reference material for somebody who wonders onto this thread and knows as little about turbocharging projects as I do.

I've been following a completely custom job a guy posted on Honda Tech. Since his is custom, I'm sure it took a bit more work than this kit but I would expect to run into some of the same issues as well.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2768183&page=6

With this kit I mentioned, it looks like for the most part it is direct bolt on but I can imagine at least having to do some cutting around the radiator to fit the intercooler pipe around it.
The guy in above mentioned thread used a Garrett T3/60-1 with the 1000cc injectors and it looks like he has had good luck and with stock internals. What do I need to pay attention to fitment wise substituting the turbo? So far I've noticed the difference between the turbos are 3" inlet/2" outlet in the kit turbo as opposed to 4"/2.5" with the garrett. Also, the turbine housing for the kit is .63 while there are a variety of options for the garrett (.63 being one of them). The kit mentions .50 A/R compressor, how is that different? I have a lot to learn so I'm really excited to get started on this. I just want to make sure that getting a different turbo isn't going to effectively make the rest of the kit I'm looking at buying, useless because everything would have to be custom fabricated anyways.

And the kit mentions it comes with the manifold which is the same as the headers, correct? Or should I consider ordering headers separately?

Aaron
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 04:45 PM
Is your car an auto or manual trans? I can weld.

That guy has a pretty nice build, I bet his car will scream. But for your goals, his kit is overkill.

The turbo he is using is quite a bit larger than the one on the eBay ad, and would add a pretty substantial amount of work to adapt in since it is physically larger, and 3/4 connections are different sizes. It also would not perform well if your goals are 350hp on an otherwise stock motor. It'd lag and come on really late. You generally want the smallest turbo you can get that will still hold its efficiency to near redline. Check out Garrett or any of the other major turbo manufacturers and you won't be hard pressed to find a turbo that is the same size as the one in the eBay ad. I don't have time now to calculate the optimum size for your motor, but the eBay one is probably pretty close.

Manifolds do the same thing as headers (You can't have both), but they are quite a bit different. A manifold is one common log, like in the eBay ad, whereas headers have independent pipes coming off the head. A manifold will generally spool faster although it's so little you won't ever notice, but the headers will make quite a bit more power once the turbo does spool. Headers are going to cost quite a bit more, and I doubt anyone makes a turbo header for your car. The manifold and internal wastegate are cheap and easy, headers and an external wastegate are expensive and difficult, but yield more power.

I'll respond to your PM

Aaron
Mon Sep 8th, 2014, 04:50 PM
In looking at the eBay ad closer, they show pictures of a manifold that has provisions for an external gate, and one that doesn't. I'm guessing it's an option.

To substitute the turbochargers, you're going to have to pay attention to a lot of things, and decide what you want out of this kit.

The eBay kit does not incorporate a water-cooled turbocharger, so your substitute needs to not be made for water cooling. In the center of the turbo, there are usually 2 connection points, oil feed and oil return. High end turbochargers incorporate 2 more connections for water-cooling. Water cooling is not necessary, but it helps. This would be pretty easy to add to your car independent of the kit if you wanted, but would of course cost a bit more (Maybe $200). Is it worth it for a 350hp kit? I'd say no.

The eBay turbo uses a T3 turbine inlet flange, and a 5 bolt outlet. The inlet is standard for a T3, the outlet you have options on (V-band, 5-bolt, 4-bolt). 5-bolt is for internally gated turbos, 4-bolt and V-band are for externally gated turbos. You'll need to make sure your new turbo has the same turbine inlet and outlet as the eBay one (T3/5-bolt).

The eBay turbo uses a 3" inlet, 2" outlet compressor. You'll want your substitute turbo to use the same, but many different sizes are available.

The eBay turbo uses standard floating bearings. Garrett and many others offer dual ball bearing turbochargers. They are more efficient, will make more power, last longer, but they generally cost significantly more. The turbocharger on my Fiero, by itself, was $1800.

That's about it to substitute turbochargers. You'll want an internally gated, T3/5-bolt turbine, 3"/2" compressor with or without water cooling and ball bearings in order to fit with this kit.

Also, remember this. Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick two.

BuckNasty
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 09:08 AM
http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww125/303cycle/Wade/20140320_105213.jpg (http://s712.photobucket.com/user/303cycle/media/Wade/20140320_105213.jpg.html)

Building my GTO for a Drag/trackday car. Should be 600+ HP when its finished. Hotchkiss sway bars, BC coilovers, harrop rear end, DSS axles, Cquence rotors, Hawk Performance pads, Stainless lines, 1 pC driveshaft, Mcload clutch, 243 heads, MSD ignition. Really just have the motor left to build (Cam, headers, intake, TB)

Beautiful car! ive always liked the gtos. is that the 5.7 or the 6.0?

Aaron
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 10:02 AM
It's the 5.7

konichd
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 12:23 PM
Its a 5.7 but the 243 heads turn it into the 6.0

Kim-n-Dean
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 01:37 PM
Its a 5.7 but the 243 heads turn it into the 6.0How does changing the heads increase displacement? A head change will change your combustion chamber size, usually measured in cc's, but not the displacement. Displacement is determined by bore x stroke x number of cylinders...

konichd
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 03:18 PM
Yes, but now when I do that cam I can change the bore-stroke to the 6.0 or I can just say what the hell and do a 408

Aaron
Tue Sep 9th, 2014, 03:30 PM
Hahaha. My Fiero has a 3.4L but since I ported and polished the heads it's a 4.3L. And with the turbo I'm definitely at 7 liters. I love this game. Oh, I have a K&N cold air intake. 7.2 bitches.

konichd
Wed Sep 10th, 2014, 09:10 AM
:lol: not exactly the same thing. On a LS1 243 heads gives you more options to building a LS motor (4" bore in my case). I've settle on a VXR cam but need to figure out lifters, rods, rockers and how much lift I need.

sag
Wed Sep 10th, 2014, 06:08 PM
my roommate just got back from AUTO X nationals with 1st place in class for the second time in his career (different cars too) and 3rd overall. he was also TT3 NASA time trials national champion last year. he holds nasa lap records at many tracks in the region. i cant drive but ive been in the scene for many years. read rule books first, then spend money on having a reliable machine and getting track time, then slowly build and improve. you dont want to be one of those dudes who cant drive their car even close to its potential haha.


first autox champion ride (sub 2:00s at hpr)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/579916_346059782148284_617999776_n.jpg?oh=4b380089 b7b9b219ff2f19b8b8aede74&oe=54CC729D&__gda__=1419920419_733b90fe46488fc2f9585266d6ca3dd e

nasa time trials whip (1:53.xx at hpr)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10177318_10202574590104761_7536365164504159889_n.j pg?oh=c9b02dd38a5744e2020c8da13bc085f3&oe=54869AD6&__gda__=1417828411_3fa8f0b2bb17d6e06e9eff919bd5cf6 8


this years autox ride

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1536600_588098111269504_1887582890_n.jpg?oh=8403c9 f73b37215a9b4492c4a7c31b99&oe=54D08FE7


my buddies car thats probably my favorite (1:54s at hpr)

has a 6.0 in it
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10582933_645480962217333_8688762843856942342_o.jpg

Captain Obvious
Thu Sep 11th, 2014, 11:05 AM
my buddies car thats probably my favorite (1:54s at hpr)

has a 6.0 in it
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10582933_645480962217333_8688762843856942342_o.jpg


More pictures of this car!

#1Townie
Thu Sep 11th, 2014, 11:53 AM
I want that BMW!!

asp_125
Thu Sep 11th, 2014, 07:11 PM
Nice rides, that FD... :drool:

sag
Sat Sep 13th, 2014, 08:51 AM
i forgot to add the bmw has an s54 swap. makes 310 whp. weights ~2700. the fd made 389whp and weighs 2516.

believe well all be at HPR this sunday for the open lapping, come check it out!

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/540113_403338103098288_677942774_n.jpg?oh=30bcf1c4 b35d66a6ee599af10e5e82db&oe=54874788
http://www.gotcone.com/photos/plog-content/images/2014-scca-tirerack-solo-national-championships/xp/img_4929.jpg
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/10536715_645481075550655_757460222538945056_o.jpg

sag
Sat Sep 13th, 2014, 08:58 AM
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31.0-8/1273169_682788721751291_926504297_o.jpg

entering chicane at hpr

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10501818_10101654979295213_6709221030624245201_n.j pg?oh=efba81fe5913d94675792b591437b8bd&oe=54854231&__gda__=1419245390_d1621eadcf20402704124032f9d2833 8

sag
Sat Sep 13th, 2014, 09:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_N7R08i73c&feature=youtu.be

sag
Tue Oct 14th, 2014, 05:47 PM
the FD set a new personal best this weekend before blowing up whatever silly tob/slave setup a t56 uses



http://youtu.be/H7_Xy7vzmwo

Aaron
Tue Oct 14th, 2014, 07:41 PM
Wow that's a seriously amazing lap time, great job!