Which Motul brake fluid and what pads for the track?

[Aaron]

Last time out at the track after a few laps my brakes started engaging later and later in the lever travel, which is terrifying when you are trying to come down from a 160 mph straight. In response I'm going to change out my brake fluid to a Motul fluid, but of course they offer several different varieties. The bike is heavily street ridden, but also taken to the track once a month or so.

Also looking at upgrading the brake pads. What do you all prefer? Although the bike gets about 10-14k miles a year, I am more worried about their track performance.

[The Black Knight]

Pads and new brake fluid will help. You won't have consistent, crisp and solid stopping power unless you upgrade to Stainless Steel brake lines. Unless you have them already of course(not sure what the BMW comes with stock and what it doesn't). If you don't have stainless steel brake lines, invest in some yesterday!! Galfer, Russell and Goodridge to name a few are all good brands and offer sets for both front and rear. Also brake pads, I use a EBC track/street pad.

I've never experienced any brake fade or mushy pressure from the lever with stainless brake lines. I also run both stainless steel brake lines on front and rear.

[One-ops]

Ferodo. And I haven't had any issues with several different dot 4 fluids so that doesn't matter to much on my bike.
My setup is brembo 19x18 (I think not sure it might be the 20) ferodo pads and braided lines. Only time I've ever had an issue was being a dumb ass on around my house and the brakes had zero heat in them. I flush fluid once a year abouts. Pads wear great current set still has life after one year of canyons and at least 10 track days.

[Matrix]

The BMW already comes with steel lines and a pretty decent master cylinder. I raced mine for a few rounds and breaks were never the issues. However, I have changed over to the Motul 600 series fluid and EBC GPFA's. A lot of racers swear by Ferodo but I personally like the EBC's better because the initial bite gives me more feel. I think in either case your ok as long as you stick to sintered pads that have a higher heat tolerance (as opposed to carbon pads).

[Aaron]

Thanks for the replies guys! Believe it or not it'll be my first time ever flushing brake fluid, so I have to teach myself how haha.

The bike already has SS braided lines.

I've pretty much settled on the Motul RBF 660 fluid with SBS RS (Racing sintered) pads. For the time being I think I'm exercising self control in not springing for the Brembo monoblocs, full carbon discs, and a Brembo master. But it's tempting!

[TFOGGuys]

The only issue with the RBF600 fluid is that it is vastly more hygroscopic than normal, so it needs to be flushed more frequently, or it will absorb moisture and the boiling point will actually be lower than conventional DOT4 fluid. In Colorado's relatively dry climate, probably once or twice a season is good.

[buddahson]

Thanks for the replies guys! Believe it or not it'll be my first time ever flushing brake fluid, so I have to teach myself how haha.

The bike already has SS braided lines.

I've pretty much settled on the Motul RBF 660 fluid with SBS RS (Racing sintered) pads. For the time being I think I'm exercising self control in not springing for the Brembo monoblocs, full carbon discs, and a Brembo master. But it's tempting!

RBF600 is great stuff. I assume you're kidding about the carbon discs, but just in case, you should know that they don't work properly in the wet. They would not be a good option for a street bike.

[WolFeYeZ]

Castrol SRF Brake Fluid is great too. Just really expensive.

[aspenbum]

if you've never bled brakes before I recommend you let someone show you through it and make sure you get a good bleed. The last thing you want is to go out on the road with an air bubble in your brake line and lose your brakes when you need them the most. Been there done that.

[Nolan]

Get a cheap vacuum bleeder from Harbor freight. Pay attention to where the bubbles are coming from (if using a vacuum bleeder. Bubbles get sucked in bypassing the hose and nipple). Do the whole bleeding process twice.
Then I've zip tied the levers overnight to check for leaks and in theory to hope that any left over air might move back up to the reservoir. Since I'm paranoid I also go around the block a few times before getting on bigger roads.

[Aaron]

I can bleed brakes, and I actually prefer 2-person manual pressure cycling to bleed.

I decided on the RBF600 fluid along with SBS RS sintered pads front and rear. Also getting a Brembo master cylinder. This bike is known for being very hard on the brakes, and my track riding style is also very hard on the brakes. Shouldn't have any problems now.

[#1Townie]

Flushing is easier than bleeding.

[UglyDogRacing]

This bike is known for being very hard on the brakes, and my track riding style is also very hard on the brakes.

what style is that?

[Aaron]

I guess it's not much harder than a race spec rider, but I carry pretty low relative corner speed and brake fairly late at 100% every time. So for your average street rider that does an occasional track day, I'd say I'm a lot harder on brakes.

[Drano]

The problem with replacing a ton of parts to fix one issue is that you can't determine how much of a benefit you received from each individual component. That is, unless you replace and test one thing at a time. Will you see an improvement in braking performance by replacing pads, changing fluid, and upgrading the master cylinder? I would certainly hope so. However, it would be financially pragmatic to make improvements in small increments in order to ensure that you're not wasting money on something you may not necessarily need. Granted, it's your money to spend, and slapping on some Brembo stuff is so cool to talk about to other riders in paddock, so do what you want.

From my perspective, the mentality I'm seeing is this: "My PC is running slow. I'm pretty sure it's running too many processes, so I'm going to buy a new motherboard, CPU, and ram to fix it."

[UglyDogRacing]

I guess it's not much harder than a race spec rider, but I carry pretty low relative corner speed and brake fairly late at 100% every time. So for your average street rider that does an occasional track day, I'd say I'm a lot harder on brakes.

Don't focus on braking late. Try getting on your brakes earlier and not as hard so you can work on increasing your pretty low relative corner speed. Your lap times will drop and your brakes may last longer.

[Aaron]

Drano, you'd be right and that's one of the things that bothers me most about Fiero owners, they replace the entire ECU and fuel injection system to fix a failed IAT.

However, we're not talking about a failed component or a failed system, we're talking about a system functioning properly that's simply been stretched beyond its limitations. And it's a system that is extremely critical, can show zero warning of impending diminishing performance, and one whose limitations can't be pointed to a single component. I mean they can be, but by how much? So I replace part by part, each time having to bleed away a $20 bottle of brake fluid, just to ruin an entire track day (If I'm lucky!), when the brakes begin to fade? And let's hope they do fade, as terrifying as fading is, a lot of braking systems give no warning of impending heat failure, they just fail altogether. Car and Driver put a brand new 370Z into a wall because of it.

The factory system owes a large part of its eagerness to fade to the pads and fluid. I'm changing the MC because of another issue I've been having since my lever install that's unrelated to the fading. Also because the MC has gotten rave reviews by a lot of people for its increase in performance. But like the SV's TRE, you don't realize it wasn't as good as it could be until the upgrade. So I'll give it a shot ;)

I'm hesitating to work any harder on corner speeds, fearing I'm getting close to my tire's limits (Pilot Road 2). I may have more tire to go, but I don't want to find that out by passing that line. So until they need changing, or I can afford a second set of rims, I'm content with my Harley Davidson corner speeds haha.

[Bueller]

:lol:

[Aaron]

Hey now I bring my keys to track days!

[#1Townie]

Kind of sounds like you're just cooking the brakes.

[Bueller]

I am thinking out of the 100+ days I have been to tracks racing or lapping, forgetting the keys one time is acceptable. I learned a good lesson that day, and I am sure it will make you think of your keys in the future because of my fuck up. You are welcome!
I/we have seen your "enthusiasm" before and at one time did or said similar things. The main thing to riding well is getting the nut behind the bars adjusted right.
Fancy, expensive over the top parts don't make you faster until you get faster. Learn to ride the bike before spending a fortune on all the great parts you read about. Don't learn to ride the motor and and brakes. Corner speed is EVERYTHING!
I guarantee you are not at your tires limit, you are approaching your limit on those tires. With better body position you can easily increase speed in a corner with the same bike lean angle you are presently obtaining.

[Drano]

You may think that you've pushed beyond the limits of the system, but I highly doubt it. Your fluid is old, and likely has gotten some moisture in it. You say that you're hard on the brakes and practicing late-braking techniques, then you're putting unnecessary strain on stock fluid, and stock pads. If you're cooking your brakes to the point that your fluid is boiling, then that fancy Brembo master cylinder is hardly going to do anything to alleviate the symptoms.

I'm not saying the Brembo master cylinder isn't a nice product, I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure it's what you "need". I think you've probably been reading up about it, and money is just burning in your pocket to be spent on something shiny, new, and supposedly better for you. I've seen plenty of people do it before. They make a massive amount of changes and add something they really want and then they falsely attribute the gains to the thing they wanted in order to justify the expense. Like I said, it's your money so do what you want. However, you might be surprised by just how much of a difference changing the fluid and replacing the pads makes. If you're concerned about your safety out there, then guys have already given you some priceless advice by telling you to replace your fluid and pads, and then work on being more smooth and precise with your braking zones and corner speeds. It will cost you less, and will likely have a greater effect than you're willing to admit.

With regards to the SV, I certainly noticed an improvement when I adjusted the throttle-position sensor. But later, when I installed the TRE, I also disabled the PAIR system, changed the spark plugs, removed the snorkel, and installed a K&N filter. So, I honestly don't know if it improved anything for me or not. It could have been any number of things and had I done each thing individually, I might have been able to specify which made the most. In all likelihood the change was so miniscule on the 650 that it was more seat-of-the-pants appraisal than actual improvement.

[Aaron]

I am thinking out of the 100+ days I have been to tracks racing or lapping, forgetting the keys one time is acceptable. I learned a good lesson that day, and I am sure it will make you think of your keys in the future because of my fuck up. You are welcome!
I/we have seen your "enthusiasm" before and at one time did or said similar things. The main thing to riding well is getting the nut behind the bars adjusted right.
Fancy, expensive over the top parts don't make you faster until you get faster. Learn to ride the bike before spending a fortune on all the great parts you read about. Don't learn to ride the motor and and brakes. Corner speed is EVERYTHING!
I guarantee you are not at your tires limit, you are approaching your limit on those tires. With better body position you can easily increase speed in a corner with the same bike lean angle you are presently obtaining.
I was just giving you shit, but you're right, I do check twice. Halfway to PMP, and I was on my bike riding there I freaked out because I thought I forgot my key.

I'm not willing to increase my lean angle right now, not until I get new tires. I'll work on body position, but no more lean. I enjoy getting on the throttle earlier, braking later, and seeing how that affects my lap times, so that's something I'm going to keep doing. But that requires 100% confidence in the brakes.


You may think that you've pushed beyond the limits of the system, but I highly doubt it. Your fluid is old, and likely has gotten some moisture in it. You say that you're hard on the brakes and practicing late-braking techniques, then you're putting unnecessary strain on stock fluid, and stock pads. If you're cooking your brakes to the point that your fluid is boiling, then that fancy Brembo master cylinder is hardly going to do anything to alleviate the symptoms.

I'm not saying the Brembo master cylinder isn't a nice product, I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure it's what you "need". I think you've probably been reading up about it, and money is just burning in your pocket to be spent on something shiny, new, and supposedly better for you. Like I said, it's your money so do what you want. However, you might be surprised by just how much of a difference changing the fluid and replacing the pads makes. If you're concerned about your safety out there, then guys have already given you some priceless advice by telling you to replace your fluid and pads, and then work on being more smooth and precise with your braking zones and corner speeds. It will cost you less, and will likely have a greater effect than you're willing to admit.

Ya how dare I ride a race bike like a race bike. Definitely unnecessary strain right there.

Who said I was getting the MC to help with brake fade? I most clearly said I wasn't, and that I'm in fact replacing the pads and fluid for that. I'm replacing the MC to solve another problem I'm having, and because it's a cheap component in an otherwise flawless system. And that's why the MC has such rave reviews, with the racers saying it was the single most beneficial thing they've done to their bike.

[Drano]

Ya how dare I ride a race bike like a race bike. Definitely unnecessary strain right there.
Like I said, on old, stock, brake fluid, and stock pads. The longer the fluid has been in the system, the higher the chance that it has accumulated moisture, resulting in boiling...


Who said I was getting the MC to help with brake fade? I most clearly said I wasn't, and that I'm in fact replacing the pads and fluid for that. I'm replacing the MC to solve another problem I'm having, and because it's a cheap component in an otherwise flawless system. And that's why the MC has such rave reviews, with the racers saying it was the single most beneficial thing they've done to their bike.

1. You're not a racer, you're a novice trying to ride like one.
2.

Last time out at the track after a few laps my brakes started engaging later and later in the lever travel, which is terrifying when you are trying to come down from a 160 mph straight. In response I'm going to change out my brake fluid to a Motul fluid, but of course they offer several different varieties. The bike is heavily street ridden, but also taken to the track once a month or so.

Also looking at upgrading the brake pads. What do you all prefer? Although the bike gets about 10-14k miles a year, I am more worried about their track performance.


I decided on the RBF600 fluid along with SBS RS sintered pads front and rear. Also getting a Brembo master cylinder. This bike is known for being very hard on the brakes, and my track riding style is also very hard on the brakes. Shouldn't have any problems now.

Now suddenly it's this:

I'm changing the MC because of another issue I've been having since my lever install that's unrelated to the fading. Also because the MC has gotten rave reviews by a lot of people for its increase in performance.

And this:

I'm replacing the MC to solve another problem I'm having, and because it's a cheap component in an otherwise flawless system. And that's why the MC has such rave reviews, with the racers saying it was the single most beneficial thing they've done to their bike. I guess $370ish isn't cheap to me. http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=4840

You read something about the Brembo MC on the s1000rr forums, that's great, and real racers (not me) in this thread are saying, technique, technique, technique. :think:

[Aaron]

And how much are you planning on spending on a bike you'very never even ridden just to make it better? Shouldn't you focus on learning how to ride first?

And learn how to shop too, because if your SV list was created shopping like you did for my MC, I could cut that almost in half.

[Drano]

Look, man, I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm honestly trying to help you avoid making a purchase you may not need. I really don't care if you want to spend the time and money to put the best components on your bike. I'm just concerned that you're barking up the wrong tree for the sake of improving performance. Forgive me if I don't think you're even close to meriting the need of those components. Guys are saying you've still got some technique to improve upon before worrying about components, and I happen to agree with them. But, as I've said, over and over, it's your money, do what you want.

This is the last time I'll offer my counsel to you. Honestly, what's the point of asking for advice if you're just going to piss on the people you don't agree with?

The difference concerning what I plan to do to my next bike is that I am not on the forums asking for advice about what to do. I know what I want to do because I have done it before and will do it again in exactly the way I want to. If I get an SV1000S I will put a lot of work into it and buy a lot of parts to get it where I want it because I want it that way. Did I ask for your advice about it? No, because I don't need your advice on it, nor would I want your unsolicited advice because I saw how you treated your own. I know what an SV needs, because I've put in the saddle and wrench time on one already, so the choices I will make are based on past experience, not because some guy on SV forums told me to do it that way.

Growing up I was pretty blessed because my father was a general contractor. He'd spend his waking hours working on bids and submitting proposals, and one piece of advice he taught me was that you don't under-price your bid. The estimated cost I shared with you is just that, an estimate. I purposely looked for the highest priced items to give me a realistic idea of how much it could cost. When it actually comes to shopping for parts, it will cost a lot less. Thanks for playing, though.

Anyway, good luck with your brakes, man

[Aaron]

Finally got around to doing some work. Pads swapped out really easily, in fact they're designed so pads can be changed without even unbolting the caliper, they can be done on the bike with the only needed tool being a screwdriver to push the piston back in with. Cleaned the calipers, lightly sanded the rotors, and am working on the master cylinder now. I would have really liked to go with some carbon discs and monobloc calipers, but can't justify the cost especially when I'll be replacing this bike in a year (Hopefully less!)

2015 S1000RR has launch control, DDC, quickshifter pro, cruise control, 199bhp, and other tid bits that sound cool. I think I like my bike's looks better, but I'll settle on that to get cruise control.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/AaronZ34/Mobile%20Uploads/20141005_161922_zps2ea77a91.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/AaronZ34/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141005_161922_zps2ea77a91.jpg.html)