Did the Police Take this too Far or Suspects fault?

[bulldog]

This story came out and thought it may be something to talk about...since board is so dead. His wife recorded the incident and has now put it out and puts a different angle on the case.

Video of Arrest and him being tased:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09Vwt3vZ9do

Former UFC heavyweight fighter Dave Herman was hit with a taser during an arrest in Indiana this week ... and now Dave's wife has released the video she shot during the incident in which she calls out the police.

Cops say Herman had been speeding with no headlights or taillights -- and when they tried to pull him over, he led them on a 3 mile chase before finally stopping at a gas station.

During the stop, cops say Herman "approached Officers in an aggressive manner" -- so they fired the taser to take him into custody.

But Herman's wife Madeleine -- who was in the car at the time with their young son -- tells TMZ Sports she's FURIOUS over the incident and claims her husband is the real victim.

Madeleine says Dave was NOT trying to run from cops when they initially tried to pull him over -- they were merely looking for a well lit place to stop.

As for allegations Dave was being aggressive, Madeleine says that's also BS -- explaining, "Dave, not wanting armed strangers walking up behind the vehicle, especially with our infant son in tow, stepped out of the vehicle and asked them if there was something he could help them with."

Madeleine says cops overreacted and violently took her husband to the ground. He's being charged with several criminal counts including resisting arrest and battery against an officer.

Dave is still in custody -- but she's calling for the officers involved in the arrest to be charged with assault.

We reached out to the DeKalb County Sheriff’s Department for comment -- so far, no word back.


Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2015/01/21/mma-star-dave-herman-tased-by-cops-arrest/#ixzz3QDoFQ1Ve

[koop]

Should have tazzed the wife.

[bulldog]

Should have tazzed the wife. Really? Seems like a cool wife to me...worked too because with the press she got he was released.

Lots of hate on wives on this site, but I can say my wife is awesome and the best thing I have :)

[koop]

This is the first I've heard of the story but according to this

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/1/23/7874911/dave-herman-on-controversial-arrest-theres-no-reason-i-should-be

He was arrested on a Tuesday, arraigned on Wednesday and released Wed night on bond. Sounds pretty standard to me. I doubt the video had anything to do with it.

Now, as to Mr. and Mrs. Herman. Screw those peckerwoods.

First, where the hell does this "cops have to show you three pieces of ID" BS come from? I did a quick google search and the only places it comes up are reports of his arrest and those nutty "sovereign citizen" websites. I'm guessing he and/or his wife are into that whole white trash, gadsden flag waving, "I don't have to pay taxes because the 16th Amendment is illegal," tree of liberty/blood of patriots, subculture. Screw those guys, they make my head hurt.

Second, the cops are in uniform and in marked cars. What's with demanding ID at all?

The cops were probably trying to pull him over for at least 5-10 minutes. (based on Herman's assertion that the road was dark and he had no headlights I'm assuming he was driving slow) What's the first thing he does when he pulls over? Jumps out of the car (bad decision #1) demands ID (bad decision #2) and then doesn't follow instructions. (bad decision #3).

What's interesting is what he did right before he got tazzed. At 1:27 of the video he has his hands up, his back turned and is continuing to demand ID. He then drops his hands, says "this is bullshit", turns around and takes a step towards the cops. Zap goes the electricity.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[bulldog]

This is the first I've heard of the story but according to this

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/1/23/7874911/dave-herman-on-controversial-arrest-theres-no-reason-i-should-be

He was arrested on a Tuesday, arraigned on Wednesday and released Wed night on bond. Sounds pretty standard to me. I doubt the video had anything to do with it.

Now, as to Mr. and Mrs. Herman. Screw those peckerwoods.

First, where the hell does this "cops have to show you three pieces of ID" BS come from? I did a quick google search and the only places it comes up are reports of his arrest and those nutty "sovereign citizen" websites. I'm guessing he and/or his wife are into that whole white trash, gadsden flag waving, "I don't have to pay taxes because the 16th Amendment is illegal," tree of liberty/blood of patriots, subculture. Screw those guys, they make my head hurt.

Second, the cops are in uniform and in marked cars. What's with demanding ID at all?

The cops were probably trying to pull him over for at least 5-10 minutes. (based on Herman's assertion that the road was dark and he had no headlights I'm assuming he was driving slow) What's the first thing he does when he pulls over? Jumps out of the car (bad decision #1) demands ID (bad decision #2) and then doesn't follow instructions. (bad decision #3).

What's interesting is what he did right before he got tazzed. At 1:27 of the video he has his hands up, his back turned and is continuing to demand ID. He then drops his hands, says "this is bullshit", turns around and takes a step towards the cops. Zap goes the electricity.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Oh man I'd love to see you tell Dave he is a "perckerwood and white trash" in person. :lol: Crazy you made that assumption over this small incident :dunno:

I am not saying what Dave did was right, but I did not think it was necessary to taze him at that point; to me he was not being threatening to the cops; yes he should have stayed in the car. Just seems like cops find any excuse to "be afraid" and use force nowadays when it really is not necessary. He got charged with kicking a cop and I did not see that from the video; Dave is a pro trained fighter so if he kicked a cop mostly likely you would see a cop go down. Then they also charge him for assaulting a officer because they tazed him; claim it is normal procedure, but not sure how a cop tazing you makes it that you assaulted them. Then he also gets charged with "child neglect"....to me sounds like pissed of officers throwing every charge they can at him

Then I think if he had not waited to stop in a well light area then none of this would have been recorded (too dark) and would have been his word against the cops (you hear at end how the officer forgot to turn his camera on)....and we all know how that goes. I feel this video is going to help him and also shows that sometimes it is best to record what goes on.

Also sounds like you are new to the story because Dave's wife has been all over the internet with multiple videos pleading to have her husband released....maybe the video didn't help, but never underestimate the power of the media and the attention it gets. I mean he did get three felonies and one misdemeanor so not sure he would have got out so soon, but I am no expert and maybe he got bailed out.

Wish I could say we can trust ALL officers, but pretty sure all the past incidents have showed this is not always true...sad but some people are very afraid of the police and do not see them the same as others and it seems to be only getting worse now that so much is recorded.

For sure this video is making the rounds and getting different opinions....that is why I posted it...damn forum need some talk. :lol:


EDIT: OK I watched 1:27 numerous times. First, look at the cop that tazed him, on Herman's left and not in front of him so there is no way he was stepping towards the cop like you said (pause at 1:28 and you can see the cop fire). Second the cops are screaming "get on your knees" so it appears he was getting on his knees and not stepping forward; either way not towards a officer. Try to get on your knees without stepping forward a little bit...very hard.

[#1Townie]

This is the first I've heard of the story but according to this

http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/1/23/7874911/dave-herman-on-controversial-arrest-theres-no-reason-i-should-be

He was arrested on a Tuesday, arraigned on Wednesday and released Wed night on bond. Sounds pretty standard to me. I doubt the video had anything to do with it.

Now, as to Mr. and Mrs. Herman. Screw those peckerwoods.

First, where the hell does this "cops have to show you three pieces of ID" BS come from? I did a quick google search and the only places it comes up are reports of his arrest and those nutty "sovereign citizen" websites. I'm guessing he and/or his wife are into that whole white trash, gadsden flag waving, "I don't have to pay taxes because the 16th Amendment is illegal," tree of liberty/blood of patriots, subculture. Screw those guys, they make my head hurt.

Second, the cops are in uniform and in marked cars. What's with demanding ID at all?

The cops were probably trying to pull him over for at least 5-10 minutes. (based on Herman's assertion that the road was dark and he had no headlights I'm assuming he was driving slow) What's the first thing he does when he pulls over? Jumps out of the car (bad decision #1) demands ID (bad decision #2) and then doesn't follow instructions. (bad decision #3).

What's interesting is what he did right before he got tazzed. At 1:27 of the video he has his hands up, his back turned and is continuing to demand ID. He then drops his hands, says "this is bullshit", turns around and takes a step towards the cops. Zap goes the electricity.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Well aren't you going to be fun to play with.

First of all your mentality is a big part of why law enforcement is so far out of control. The idea to blindly follow orders will never sit with me.

I have GOD given rights to life. No officer on the face of the planet has the right to violate that. Our constitution ensured that in many different ways.

So I must thank you and your parents for allowing a badge and a gun to repeatedly do as they wish. Not following any laws. And when they do screw up? A person is killed or at the very least assaulted.

There is stories of women having pepper spray sprayed into their... Well lady parts. Handcuffed people shot to death. Handcuffed people beat and kicked.

People horrible assaulted by our so called defenders. The guys I'm supposed to blindly follow. No thank you.

Cops need some serious training in conflict resolution and remember they are not gods. We are not children here for the state or feds to try to protect us from everything.

And just in case you think I'm making this up I'm going to add links. Give me a few.

http://youtu.be/KmldS4yCWmI

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-sues-corrections-officer-pepper-spraying-genitals-article-1.1529250#bmb=1


http://www.mediate.com/Mobile/article.cfm?id=5143

Where so you draw the line of cooperation?

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime/texas-women-sue-humiliating-body-cavity-searches-roadside-article-1.1390230#bmb=1

I call that one rape.

Hey these guys even got a search warrnet. How did that work out for the tax payers?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/

You might want to call them freaks or white trash or whatever else but truth is they are doing YOU a favor.

The way you live with cooperate you're not even a free person. If you don't exercise your rights they dont exist. Simple as that.

The more rights we give up the dimmer the future. We are already starting to look like Nazi Germany. Look at how well that worked out for the world.

http://www.hermes-press.com/germany1930.htm

Think I'm making this up? Just look at your comment. You flat out said he should have cooperated and none of this would have happened. You are giving the right to cops to pick and chose what laws to follow. What rights to give us when they see it fits.

Why stop there? Why not have a checkpoint every few miles on interstates or at least state borders asking for ID? Why not just give the cops the right to come into your home and search as need be?

Honestly I'm not worried about you or me. I don't think this party is going to crash down until after we are all old. No I think it will be our children and our children's children that will have to pay for our "safety" and "cooperation".

[koop]

Godwin in 6, excellent.

[Ph03niX]

In my opinion, most cops aren't overusing their "power". These cops were following this guy with no headlights or taillights, driving slowly (granted) with flashers on, and then when he pulls into a gas station he gets out and starts asking for ID. Just imagine being the police officer. "This guy has no headlights or taillights and wont pull over, then when he does, he confronts the officers". They had no idea what could have been in the car, nor his intentions. Just for their safety alone, they need to make sure he doesn't have anything on him, because he was acting like he might have a weapon/or just being suspicious in general.

If he had pulled over when they flashed him, they would have came up, asked why they're going slow with no head/tail lights on and flashers, and been on their way. He took it wayy overboard. Why the fck would he need a "well lit area" unless he was hiding something.. I don't think he was but what he did was just stupid.

[#1Townie]

In my opinion, most cops aren't overusing their "power". These cops were following this guy with no headlights or taillights, driving slowly (granted) with flashers on, and then when he pulls into a gas station he gets out and starts asking for ID. Just imagine being the police officer. "This guy has no headlights or taillights and wont pull over, then when he does, he confronts the officers". They had no idea what could have been in the car, nor his intentions. Just for their safety alone, they need to make sure he doesn't have anything on him, because he was acting like he might have a weapon/or just being suspicious in general.

If he had pulled over when they flashed him, they would have came up, asked why they're going slow with no head/tail lights on and flashers, and been on their way. He took it wayy overboard. Why the fck would he need a "well lit area" unless he was hiding something.. I don't think he was but what he did was just stupid.

And again. Comply or die.


Sorry just have to add this in there. The cops with guns. Body armor. Pepper spray. Tazers. Yes they were in danger. From this guy who according to you was acting like he had a weapon?

Come on. Shooting before seeing the weapon is supposed to be against the law. Also I like how you can be charged with resisting something that hasn't even been declared. Not once did I hear those cops say he's under arrest.

So basically here's what happened. The coos could have dealt with this like adults and used a little respect. Used techniques to calm the situation instead of escalating it. The whole night could have been very different if the coos would have used a little more discretion.

But Nope. Do as I say or you're going down. Its funny how us ordinary citizens can do jobs like repo and know how to deal with people better than a "peace officer". Lol. Peace officer. That's just comical.

[#1Townie]

Godwin in 6, excellent.

Well aren't you just full of inspiration.

No comment to what's the point of having rights if you don't exercise them?

[bulldog]

Koop is funny; comes in all hard then gets all scared to back up his opinion. Don't be scared man and exercise your rights you talk about; it is what a forum is for. I don't take it serious just mainly looking for some action on this forum....so speak up man! :D

I don't think anything Townie said was not backed up so to just say "goldwin" just shows me you really have little to come back with. I watched your 1:27 minute comment and was hoping you replied too.....



In my opinion, most cops aren't overusing their "power". These cops were following this guy with no headlights or taillights, driving slowly (granted) with flashers on, and then when he pulls into a gas station he gets out and starts asking for ID. Just imagine being the police officer. "This guy has no headlights or taillights and wont pull over, then when he does, he confronts the officers". They had no idea what could have been in the car, nor his intentions. Just for their safety alone, they need to make sure he doesn't have anything on him, because he was acting like he might have a weapon/or just being suspicious in general.

If he had pulled over when they flashed him, they would have came up, asked why they're going slow with no head/tail lights on and flashers, and been on their way. He took it wayy overboard. Why the fck would he need a "well lit area" unless he was hiding something.. I don't think he was but what he did was just stupid. I think the "headlight" issue has been taken out of context. In her interview (and others I have seen) it states they were having car trouble and had their hazard lights on (that were still functioning). So it appears as if the reason the headlights were out is because of their car trouble. It also sounds like they were on a road with not much around so as a father I am sure he was concerned to stop in the middle of nowhere stranded with a baby (you never know at that point if yo shut the vehicle off if it will restart). Plus cops state they tried to pull him over for going fast....yet why would someone put their hazards on if they are going to drive fast with their wife and infant in car....just doesn't make sense to me. His wife didn't seem like a loser so I would think if Dave was doing this putting their life in danger she would have been happy the cops came, but her story backs up Dave's and says they were not speeding and simply had alternator problems and were driving with hazards on to get to a gas station. Also be aware this happened at 1am so how many fathers would just pull over on a deserted road with their infant...don't think I would and would also drive to nearest place....yes Dave was tested for drugs and alcohol and he was sober.

Again, he made some bad decisions on his part like getting out of his car when stopped, but I agree with Townie and amazes me two cops in body armor, guns, tazers, backup on way, batons, pepper spray, etc are so afraid of a man in shorts with no weapon present. Did cops think they were getting into this job and not going to encounter these issues; no, they all knew what they were getting into. Their job has always been to protect the community, yet it seems like it has turned into "protect the cop " because cops suddenly became too scared to properly do their job and resort to the worst situation many times. I do feel they should try to fix a situation without force and pretty sure that is how they are trained.

If officers should be "afraid" and use extreme force, then should others jobs allow this. I think of a towtruck driver (like Townie) and think that has to be a dangerous job; fools all mad you are taking their car. Should he just always whip out his gun right away or does it makes more sense to show some id and documents. I bet he gets further being polite and showing them he is legit rather than arguing and escalating the situation (heck I think he posted he does not even carry).....exactly how I feel on this. Cops could have dealt with it better, but I feel they were pissed he did not pull over right away and got "hotheaded".

And if we do not think cops shooting people is not becoming frequent I have to ask if you watched the Denver news yesterday. A teenager girls was shot to death when multiple officers fired into her car. Again she may have not made the best decisions (cop claims he tried to hit her with the car), but damn did she have to be shot multiple times killing her; she was 17 and we all made some dumb decisions at that age. So another one being investigated right here in our hometown
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27412773/denver-police-id-officers-fatal-shooting-unarmed-teen

[#1Townie]

Correct. Never carried on a repo. Used respect to get my job done.

Had one drugged out woman hit me and jump on the hood and go all crazy. I never responded with force. Why? Because it wasn't needed. She didn't hit very hard and I was having a hard time not laughing at her.

There is a saying. If you carry it you might be tempted to use it. I have no.. AND I MEAN ZERO respect for guys who do repo and carry a gun.

You know what you are signing up for. You should learn how to deal with your job without using violence. I understand cops have to go beyond that andbuse it but I can show countless videos where cops do it just because they can. Countless videos where all the cop had to do was show a little respect and just hear a person out. But nope. TAZER TAZER TAZER!!

Oh and how do they deal with out of line kids? Let's just see.

http://youtu.be/enPjQYPwnHI

[bulldog]

Correct. Never carried on a repo. Used respect to get my job done.

Had one drugged out woman hit me and jump on the hood and go all crazy. I never responded with force. Why? Because it wasn't needed. She didn't hit very hard and I was having a hard time not laughing at her.

There is a saying. If you carry it you might be tempted to use it. I have no.. AND I MEAN ZERO respect for guys who do repo and carry a gun.

You know what you are signing up for. You should learn how to deal with your job without using violence. I understand cops have to go beyond that andbuse it but I can show countless videos where cops do it just because they can. Countless videos where all the cop had to do was show a little respect and just hear a person out. But nope. TAZER TAZER TAZER!!

Oh and how do they deal with out of line kids? Let's just see.

http://youtu.be/enPjQYPwnHI Seems the smart way to deal with it. You pull a gun and most people will have one too so then you get a standoff and that rarely ends well. Why resort to that when there are others ways.....wish all cops saw it this way


Wow, I think that cop broke that kids are on purpose. Appears that kid had stopped taking some mental issue medicine and that is why he was acting that way; which to me was just sitting there and no way needed to go that far. Should have brought a counselor out to talk to him rather than officers to use force....

[Nolan]

Read through a couple of these threads and I'm struck by a weird thought...
Crime in general has actually decreased by a good margin from its high in the 90s but, the escalation of force from law enforcement is still on the upswing... Or are we just more aware of it via the media push.

[#1Townie]

Oh standoff you say? One second and I will show you the difference between armed protest and not armed protests.

Unarmed.
http://youtu.be/6AdDLhPwpp4

Armed. Not one shot fired. Not one fist thrown. No tesr gas. No tazers. Nothing. Just and end to the situation.

http://youtu.be/a_XqdQjTflc

And Nolan you bring up a great point. Many crimes are down and yet the police become more hostile and more afraid everyday.

But hey cops don't have to follow the constitution. Lol

http://youtu.be/MVrzABC4Nqs

I can keep this up all day.
http://youtu.be/jqhefrPzCnY

[lth]

My two cents is that the cops probably could have avoided using the taser, but the citizen is not supposed to step out of the car until asked to do so. So I sympathize with both.

"Three forms of ID" - I've never heard that one.

[#1Townie]

My two cents is that the cops probably could have avoided using the taser, but the citizen is not supposed to step out of the car until asked to do so. So I sympathize with both.

"Three forms of ID" - I've never heard that one.

Yeah the three forms is a bit far but try to understand that she just watched her husband get taxed and there was probably a bit of adrenaline running.

The pros in this situation are the cops. Its up to them to make sure the situation is handled correctly. Not the driver of the car. But with that said its not like he's screaming at them or freaking out. He may have asked some strange questions but an officer is required to identify himself.

That's kind of the point. If the cops had just used some conflict resolution they would have never taxed anyone. They wouldn't have arrested anyone. It would have been a much different night. And video. Lol.

[koop]

Not running from an argument, nothing to argue. Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid. Herman wasn't "exercising his rights" he has no right to refuse to comply until the cops jump through his hoops. Three forms of ID, gimme a break.

Past three years I've gotten pulled over 4x. 3 for speeding including a 6 pointer in GG and one passing on a double yellow in GG. Got one warning and knocked the other three down to 2 point mechanicals. You know why? Because I'm not an asshole. Because I don't harbor black helicopter delusions, don't think Cliven Bundy is an American hero, don't carry long guns into Applebees, don't take legal advice from websites run by felons and I never, ever, tell a cop "I know my rights" which roughly translates into copspeak as "why yes officer, I would like to see your new booking room."

Herman wasn't striking a blow for freedom, he was being an asshole, so he got to ride the lightning. A hard head makes for a soft ass.

[Matrix]

Best comparison I can think of here is when you hear about someone on a bike who road rages against a car. You might be right...but your still going to lose.

Dude acted like a douche and got the wood put to him. Seems about right to me.

[bulldog]

Not running from an argument, nothing to argue. Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid. Herman wasn't "exercising his rights" he has no right to refuse to comply until the cops jump through his hoops. Three forms of ID, gimme a break.

Past three years I've gotten pulled over 4x. 3 for speeding including a 6 pointer in GG and one passing on a double yellow in GG. Got one warning and knocked the other three down to 2 point mechanicals. You know why? Because I'm not an asshole. Because I don't harbor black helicopter delusions, don't think Cliven Bundy is an American hero, don't carry long guns into Applebees, don't take legal advice from websites run by felons and I never, ever, tell a cop "I know my rights" which roughly translates into copspeak as "why yes officer, I would like to see your new booking room."

Herman wasn't striking a blow for freedom, he was being an asshole, so he got to ride the lightning. A hard head makes for a soft ass.
Dang so first Dave was a perkerwood, then white trash, and now stupid! Do you personally know this guy or what? I've followed Dave since he started his career and I can tell you he has a college degree from Indiana University, a very successful career, tons of money, a wife and kid, and is known to be a good guy, so sounds like he is doing pretty well to me. Something tells me you being so much "smarter" has not accomplished what he has....but that is right, he is stupid.

Nobody is saying the Dave acting correctly, but being the professional officers their use of force is what is questioned.

Consider yourself lucky you have not had bad run ins with the cops...yet. All fun and games till it happens to you!

[koop]

A. Peckerwood, white trash and stupid are pretty much interchangeable in my lexicon.

B. No I don't know him. We aren't friends, not on a first name basis and I don't have a mancrush on him.

C. Actually, I am speaking from experience. Back when I was in my 20's I was dumb white trash and thought I knew more than I did. The cops wanted to search my Torino and I told them "you can't do that, I know my rights" and I got kicked in the nuts and got to see the new booking room. I was stupid then and your buddy is stupid now.

[bulldog]

A. Peckerwood, white trash and stupid are pretty much interchangeable in my lexicon.

B. No I don't know him. We aren't friends, not on a first name basis and I don't have a mancrush on him.

C. Actually, I am speaking from experience. Back when I was in my 20's I was dumb white trash and thought I knew more than I did. The cops wanted to search my Torino and I told them "you can't do that, I know my rights" and I got kicked in the nuts and got to see the new booking room. I was in the stupid then and your buddy is stupid now. Well making assumption about someone you do not know seems pretty harsh for a guy that claims he is not a "asshole". :lol:

So now you just do everything the cops tell you? if so that is why so many rights get violated because people like you do not stand up for themselves. Of course you have a right to not let a cop search your car, but in your case I am sure they had "probably cause" that allowed them. Again use allowing them to make that decision of "probable cause" is wha officers use as a excuse over and over. So let me ask you was their probably cause they found or did you just not know your rights?

The Fourth Amendment's protection against unlawful search and seizure generally makes arbitrary police car searches illegal. If the police search your car without a warrant, your permission, or a valid reason, they are violating your constitutional rights

[Captain Obvious]

This demand of the LEOs to show 3 forms of ID, never heard of it before. Everything that follows is a result of the Herman's dictating that. Anyone have legal statutes supporting this?

So many decisions that caused this to escalate into an unhappy ending.

He certainly had the right to travel to a well lit area if he was clearly not trying to evade, which it doesn't sound like he was. But that generally gets to police a little on edge. She should have called 911 and attempted to notify them she was in the car and they were driving to a lit place. Should of would of could of.

[koop]

It was a bad stop. I was a long haired white boy with an old beater car driving late at night in a bad neighborhood (mine) but the cop stopped me about half a mile over the city line, out of his jurisdiction. Profiling. The back up cop from the neighboring jurisdiction backed my story and the case got thrown out.

So yeah, now I do what the cops say, take my ticket and fight it in court. You want to strike a blow for freedom and squabble with the cops, knock yourself out. I'll be the freedom hating pussy going home that night.

[bulldog]

It was a bad stop. I was a long haired white boy with an old beater car driving late at night in a bad neighborhood (mine) but the cop stopped me about half a mile over the city line, out of his jurisdiction. Profiling. The back up cop from the neighboring jurisdiction backed my story and the case got thrown out. See the other officer seems to be a good cop and backed the story that was the truth....those are the cops I am down for.

So yeah, now I do what the cops say, take my ticket and fight it in court. You want to strike a blow for freedom and squabble with the cops, knock yourself out. I'll be the freedom hating pussy going home that night. Yeah sounds like he totally profiled you; happened to me all my life. And see sounds like you did have a honest cop behind you that saw it and cleared the matter up...now those are the good cops we need!

The moral of story here is to never go at the police alone in this situation...you lawyer up fast! Just getting a lawyer makes most of them back down because they know your rights have to be followed....believe me they will try to twist your rights. You notice how officers always try to be cool and get your consent; because the second you do you have waived your right. Same thing if they knock on your home door and they say "mind if we step in"...boom, you just waived your right and gave them consent to come in and search.

And I am not saying to not comply, but if rights are being ignored it does not always mean the cops are correct as cases get dismissed all the time for this reason. So as I said you have been lucky, but personally I had a cop say I ran from him on my sportbike the week before and me being calm and explaining it was not me did nothing for him. I know i was innocent, but he judged me guilty when he saw a bike that was similar to the one that ran from him (an black and silver F4I). Also seem cops personally plants drugs on people; that case got dismissed because he was pulled over for noise violation (loud stereo), but his lawyer proved that went into affect at 10pm and they pulled him over at 9:45pm.

Always best to comply, but don't let them fool you that you do not have rights. If anything you can get a case thrown out with a lawyer if they could not prove probable cause.

And not saying the "3 forms of id" is a law and she probably was mistaken, but I do believe it is a right to travel to a well light area since so many police officer impersonations have occurred. I just don't get why they didn't just pull out there badges when he asked...they did eventually to th wife I saw, but that was all he was asking for.

[Captain Obvious]

koop, where does your opinion on the topic stop and your own story start? You saying the traffic stop on Herman was an invalid traffic stop? Or had bad results?

[Captain Obvious]

And not saying the "3 forms of id" is a law and she probably was mistaken, but I do believe it is a right to travel to a well light area since so many police officer impersonations have occurred. I just don't get why they didn't just pull out there badges when he asked...they did eventually to th wife I saw, but that was all he was asking for.

I suspect the 3 ID thing is completely wrong, in my experience, I have never heard of such a thing.

People absolutely DO have the right to travel to a well lit location for a traffic stop.

I just don't get why they didn't just pull out there badges when he asked They were in uniform. Had badges on their uniforms. Had multiple vehicles with lights and stickers, etc. They did show her id once Herman was detained. She was sitting in the vehicle and didn't appear to be a threat. One can say "they did that because she had a camera" well, perhaps, but they also met her request once the perceived threat was removed.

Once again, everything depends on this expectation of 3 forms of ID. IF it is actually a req, then sure, they didn't meet a legislated requirement. If it isn't, then his requests were invalid and he didn't comply with multiple instructions and directions. He started to comply and then backtracked and took a step towards them. The rest of the charges (at least 1 were trumped up) are dependent on if the original path was correct or not.

Can always play the what if game. The Herman's present a reason for him to get out of the car once stopped. All speculation, but if he had stayed the vehicle, none of this might have happened. Cops ask for ID, why didn't you pull over, he explains he needed to get to a well lit location, vehicle trouble and didn't want his wife and infant in the middle of no where with a dead vehicle in the snow..... who knows, it is all speculation.

[Captain Obvious]

Always best to comply, but don't let them fool you that you do not have rights. If anything you can get a case thrown out with a lawyer if they could not prove probable cause.



agreed.

Although, a case just went to the Supreme Court. It basically states that if a LEO is WRONG about their PC (reasons for stop was incorrect), and violations that are subsequently found, the arrest can still be upheld...

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/12/28/supreme-court-rules-8-1-citizens-no-protection-4th-amendment-violations-police-ignorant-law/


In the case that went to the Supreme CT, the driver did give consent to search, which may be part of why the court ruled as they did...... Just saying, new definition of the law. :)

Summary, don't have cocaine in your vehicle, even if you are following all the other laws.

[guambra2001]

I am a cop in the Air Force, no where near what "actual" cops have to do and go through, but in my humble opinion based on the video showned and not having seen the police report, the use of the taser was not justified. Now before people start yelling at me, let me explain, I work in Peterson Afb we receive extensive annual training on the use of force, we also carry taser just like the one on the civilian side and for us to be able to use it, the situation has to meet the following criteria based on the use of force model: subject action - resistant active; risk perception - threshold; officer response - compliance techniques.

so based on that I don't beleive he was actively resisting to commands, yes he was verbally resistant but not active as is it would best for under the resistance passive categorie, no taser use allowed at this level. The officers didn't try to apply any pressure points, no actual hands on, nothing, they went directly for the taser. I could understand this if the officer was alone but from the video there were at least two officers. Also at the time the officers would have no way of knowing that he was an mma fighter.

Basically my opinion on this is just because someone is an asshole it doesn't give you the right by law and training to use exesive force. If this was the case id be zapping people left and right... Something I've noticed, is the fact of how much and how willing civilian police will "charge" a person based on interactions. Idk for us in the military when we charge someone with something with need we'll established pc, we need to to know the article in the UCMJ AND its applicable elements before any "arrest" can be made.

[Captain Obvious]

Last I checked, some departments consider a taser level 3 and not level 4. From the get go, the taser was used as a threat.

I would honestly rather be tazed than have a couple cops try to wrestle me down or use open hand techniques.

If you watch about 1:05 (depending on the video) you will see he lowers his hands, turns back to the cops and steps towards them.

Were they quick to give him a ride, yes, were they justified? Depends.

[guambra2001]

As I stated, look at the model, it is at level 3 but the subject was displaying actions that would correlate with resistant passive I.e level 2. I'm guessing that you've never been tased, well I have and I can tell you that it is not a pleasant expiriemce. And simple by saying hands on I mean, using your hand to direct or calmly de escalate the situation; IMO the use of the taser was not justified and in fact was quickly issued instead of ANY other means. This is based on the video though, there is always two sides of the story.

[#1Townie]

It was a bad stop. I was a long haired white boy with an old beater car driving late at night in a bad neighborhood (mine) but the cop stopped me about half a mile over the city line, out of his jurisdiction. Profiling. The back up cop from the neighboring jurisdiction backed my story and the case got thrown out.

So yeah, now I do what the cops say, take my ticket and fight it in court. You want to strike a blow for freedom and squabble with the cops, knock yourself out. I'll be the freedom hating pussy going home that night.


Well I'm happy that worked for you. Enjoy the comply or die. I will record. Enjoy your he said she said fight in court. I will just show a video.

You also clearly have no idea what a wood is. You use it far too easy. That makes me wonder if you are from a bad neighborhood for not knowing what you are calling this guy.

This also makes me question your entire story at all.

[koop]

You keep watching Lockup and fighting the good fight Townie.

[Captain Obvious]

As I stated, look at the model, it is at level 3 but the subject was displaying actions that would correlate with resistant passive I.e level 2. I'm guessing that you've never been tased, well I have and I can tell you that it is not a pleasant expiriemce. And simple by saying hands on I mean, using your hand to direct or calmly de escalate the situation; IMO the use of the taser was not justified and in fact was quickly issued instead of ANY other means. This is based on the video though, there is always two sides of the story.

Your guess is very wrong. I've been tazed a number of times. And it hurts. But goes away. "soft hands techniques" can escalate very quickly, esp with someone who is a trained fighter (they wouldn't know that at the time) but in general.

And as I stated, not all departments have use a taser at the same level. Some have it at a level below what you are presenting. This was years ago, but some treat it differently. Being that they had it taser drawn at the very beginning they may have it lower than what you are assuming. I don't know, but guessing.

[#1Townie]

You keep watching Lockup and fighting the good fight Townie.

Hahahaha I don't watch that. Now I'm really questioning everything you said.

You're telling me a cop broke the blue line to defend some broke white trash long haired? I'm not buying it. He kicked you in the nuts?

Yeah this whole story of yours smells a little fishy.

[guambra2001]

Your guess is very wrong. I've been tazed a number of times. And it hurts. But goes away. "soft hands techniques" can escalate very quickly, esp with someone who is a trained fighter (they wouldn't know that at the time) but in general.

And as I stated, not all departments have use a taser at the same level. Some have it at a level below what you are presenting. This was years ago, but some treat it differently. Being that they had it taser drawn at the very beginning they may have it lower than what you are assuming. I don't know, but guessing.

You are right, not all departments have the use of force at the same level but it would seem illogical to have it at less than level 3. Idk I respect your opinion and agree that once someone puts their hands on someone else it could either de escalate or escalate further; my issue is with how it seems that for every situation no matter the level cops seem to use the taser pretty regularly without much of a though...maybe because it's effective?

From a reasonable perspective as an officer, I didn't see a justified use in this case. And the way i reason my decision is if I had an argument with my wife that was simply verbal in nature, high emotions, and oboiusly some anger I can't just pick up a taser and shock her.... So why did the officer in this case do so? Standards are there for a reason and I understand the use of force is not black or white simple and everyone can play Monday nignt quarterback, but simply put one cannot ignore facts and evidence and based on what I saw in the video he was not justified to use it.

[Captain Obvious]

previously posted. - Were they quick to give him a ride, yes, were they justified? Depends.

[#1Townie]

previously posted. - Were they quick to give him a ride, yes, were they justified? Depends.


Doesn't being hasty in a decision kind of make it not justified? Shouldn't the cops have at least given it a chance to deescalate him? I mean he wasn't really asking all that much. He wanted some id. That's not really asking all that much.

Doing repo people wanted copies of their paperwork. That was easy. Just gave it to them. Some people wanted my ID and that didn't happen. What I would do for them is call the repo in to the police and give them the case number.

Point is I always found a way to DEESCALATE the situation. Not make it worse.

[bulldog]

I am a cop in the Air Force, no where near what "actual" cops have to do and go through, but in my humble opinion based on the video showned and not having seen the police report, the use of the taser was not justified. Now before people start yelling at me, let me explain, I work in Peterson Afb we receive extensive annual training on the use of force, we also carry taser just like the one on the civilian side and for us to be able to use it, the situation has to meet the following criteria based on the use of force model: subject action - resistant active; risk perception - threshold; officer response - compliance techniques.

so based on that I don't beleive he was actively resisting to commands, yes he was verbally resistant but not active as is it would best for under the resistance passive categorie, no taser use allowed at this level. The officers didn't try to apply any pressure points, no actual hands on, nothing, they went directly for the taser. I could understand this if the officer was alone but from the video there were at least two officers. Also at the time the officers would have no way of knowing that he was an mma fighter.

Basically my opinion on this is just because someone is an asshole it doesn't give you the right by law and training to use exesive force. If this was the case id be zapping people left and right... Something I've noticed, is the fact of how much and how willing civilian police will "charge" a person based on interactions. Idk for us in the military when we charge someone with something with need we'll established pc, we need to to know the article in the UCMJ AND its applicable elements before any "arrest" can be made. A cop with some common sense...thank God...these are the type we need more of :up:

Totally agree and just because someone is acting like an asshole does not mean it has to go to excessive force! Makes more sense to rectify a situation without violence and normally that ends to a better outcome. As it is it is, funny how most cops will use violence to prevent violence....makes me think of that old saying "lead by example". For me I'd respect a cop more that de-escalated a situation with his words then by going to force. Heck even in life; I got managers that try to use their "power" and bully people and nobody wants to help those managers. The ones that stick up for us and treat is like level people are the ones I'd bend over backwards to help....same could go for cops...the aggressive tactic does not seem to work well and should be used as a last resource.


Doesn't being hasty in a decision kind of make it not justified? Shouldn't the cops have at least given it a chance to deescalate him? I mean he wasn't really asking all that much. He wanted some id. That's not really asking all that much.

Doing repo people wanted copies of their paperwork. That was easy. Just gave it to them. Some people wanted my ID and that didn't happen. What I would do for them is call the repo in to the police and give them the case number.

Point is I always found a way to DEESCALATE the situation. Not make it worse. Exactly! Just like this they could have done the same and just given the guy a second and shown him their id; sure they were in uniform, but I still think taking 60 seconds to pull out his badge and introduce who they are and why they pulled him over would have worked better. Just seems like the smarter thing to do.

I've always laughed at those repo shows (probably fake) when they sit and argue with a person when I'd just be like "call the cops then" and wait as they do and look like idiots....still better than wrestling the keys out of their hands.

[Aaron]

3 forms of ID is not a legal request from a citizen. In fact, for a uniformed Officer, any request for ID is not one the Officer has to comply with. Now depending on the circumstance, I'd generally have no problem showing you my ID. Not in this case though, I'm not going to put myself in that position because it puts me at a tactical disadvantage. You want to stay in your car, follow my commands, and politely ask for an ID? I'll be happy to show you, I'll even show you a second badge with matching numbers as my first. After the contact, I am required to provide you with my name and agency. That can come in the form of a verbal notification, a business card, a summons to appear, or an affidavit in support of a warrantless arrest.

Yes, as a person you have a lot of rights. In nearly every situation I've ever been in, I know your rights better than you do. Not trying to be a prick, but I've been through extensive schooling, training, and court hearings learning about your rights. Every single day I study case law. I go out of my way to respect your rights, I really do. Are there times where I push the envelope? Absolutely, but while I may be pushing a standpoint, it's a legal one. Are there times when I have violated someone's rights? Absolutely, but never on purpose, it was always an honest mistake. There is a single time and place to flex your rights. A courtroom. Not the side of the road, you will lose, every time. Even if the cop is wrong, you cannot resist. On the side of the road, you are required to blindly follow orders. You can refuse a consent request, you can make some situation decisions, you can make decisions that I ask you to, but beyond that, I am in control.

The Officers were within their rights, there is no legal or policy violation for what they did. He made a series of bad decisions showing his intent to resist, and he failed to follow commands. That's why it's a command, and not a request. Officers have the right to force your compliance.


I am a cop in the Air Force, no where near what "actual" cops have to do and go through, but in my humble opinion based on the video showned and not having seen the police report, the use of the taser was not justified. Now before people start yelling at me, let me explain, I work in Peterson Afb we receive extensive annual training on the use of force, we also carry taser just like the one on the civilian side and for us to be able to use it, the situation has to meet the following criteria based on the use of force model: subject action - resistant active; risk perception - threshold; officer response - compliance techniques.

so based on that I don't beleive he was actively resisting to commands, yes he was verbally resistant but not active as is it would best for under the resistance passive categorie, no taser use allowed at this level. The officers didn't try to apply any pressure points, no actual hands on, nothing, they went directly for the taser. I could understand this if the officer was alone but from the video there were at least two officers. Also at the time the officers would have no way of knowing that he was an mma fighter.

Basically my opinion on this is just because someone is an asshole it doesn't give you the right by law and training to use exesive force. If this was the case id be zapping people left and right... Something I've noticed, is the fact of how much and how willing civilian police will "charge" a person based on interactions. Idk for us in the military when we charge someone with something with need we'll established pc, we need to to know the article in the UCMJ AND its applicable elements before any "arrest" can be made.

Interesting. Legally, he was absolutely justified. As for policy, our's is more lenient, and we don't have named force levels. You don't have to be actively resisting to be subject to Taser/OC/Strikes/Baton, a subject merely showing the intent to actively resist can be subject to Taser/OC/Strikes/Baton (All are on the same level in my agency). In this case, there are 2 people, both showing an antagonistic intent to resist. And the male is clearly in top physical condition. I would not have tried pressure points or hands on, that's what gets cops hurt and killed. I would have gone to the Taser as well, and backed that up with OC if the Taser was ineffective. He wasn't just an asshole, he was in violation of the law, failing to follow commands, in top physical condition, and showing the intent to actively resist.

That being said, I would not have activated the Taser as quickly as those Officers did, I would have given a bit more time and warning. The red dot has an amazing sobering effect on people, if given the time to sink in. I would have drawn my Taser, armed it, and told him several times to get back in the car and close the door, then you can see my ID.

I need PC as well, no doubt about that. But it's here in this case, for several violations.


You are right, not all departments have the use of force at the same level but it would seem illogical to have it at less than level 3. Idk I respect your opinion and agree that once someone puts their hands on someone else it could either de escalate or escalate further; my issue is with how it seems that for every situation no matter the level cops seem to use the taser pretty regularly without much of a though...maybe because it's effective?

From a reasonable perspective as an officer, I didn't see a justified use in this case. And the way i reason my decision is if I had an argument with my wife that was simply verbal in nature, high emotions, and oboiusly some anger I can't just pick up a taser and shock her.... So why did the officer in this case do so? Standards are there for a reason and I understand the use of force is not black or white simple and everyone can play Monday nignt quarterback, but simply put one cannot ignore facts and evidence and based on what I saw in the video he was not justified to use it.

Have you ever had to use force in the performance of your duties? Remember you work in a completely different world than I do. Your subjects are largely compliant because they have so much to lose and are in an authority-driven organization and location. I am involved in a force-related arrest about once every 2-4 weeks, and have used my Taser 10-20 times over the past 6 years. Every time it was justified. I pull it out and arm it at least once a night. If that red dot on your chest doesn't gain compliance, neither will a pressure point. I would love to put up my video footage of the last Taser activation I had, because you see how ineffective every other compliance technique was, and how quickly the situation went from a random unconscious guy to a physical fight and Taser activation. It was a few seconds, and that includes the time I spent warning him he was about to be Tased.

I've offered this plenty of times before, and Townie is going to take me up on it. I will take ride-alongs. You will see situations and people you never could have imagined, and the amount of patience and restraint we show before using force. But a fair bit of warning. In order to ride, you must show ID ;)

[Captain Obvious]

. In order to ride, you must show ID ;)

But how many forms?

[bulldog]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnSlpYg2Tu6On4l562-fwKMsbcChBVC5WztZZ4MK2nl3jkoufd

Ummm...posted like 3 months ago :slap:

[#1Townie]

Aaron and your statement that I have to do what you tell me when you tell me is the part I have the biggest problem.

Comply or die.

I won't say you as I actually do have respect for you. Even with all the ftp shit aside I'm sure you are good at your job.

But with every officer like you there is at least one that is the opposite. The who doesn't give a damn about people. The ones that are just as bad as our criminals.

What I find terrifyingly funny is how very little training officers receive in the form of conflict resolution. Why? Well because what you just said. Do as I say or else.

Funny part is Leo departments sit here and want more money when we see cops sitting around hanging out. Harrasing people over simple things. Being basic pricks because someone doesn't want to simply follow blind orders from some tin badge.

Then at the end of the day we don't even get treated the same. Cop gets pulled over and flips his badge. No ticket. Domestic violence? Don't even get me started on this one.

I have no idea how a cop can keep a job after committing any crime baffles me.

Look at trucking in this country. Trucking is one of the tightest regulated profession in the country. Bac is only allowed to be .04 in a personal vehicle. Speeding? Oh that's right 13 over is wreckless driving.

Actually everything for me is tighter. Why is a cop given an easy pass when they screw up and I have to find a new career?

I know Aaron can't fix the world but honestly I know many people feel that the double standards are too much. There is a massive lack of trust in Leo these days.

Only way to fix Leo civi relations is for a dramatic change in how Leos conduct themselves.

[Ezzzzy1]

Dave Herman is a Dbag. To me, this is a classic case of someone that is hyper sensitive to the police that go out of their way to "take a stand" of their not so accurate beliefs.

Dumbass should have stayed in his car and started there. If you want to talk to cops like a normal human being and are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Its when you start taking things into your own hands and acting like a know-it-all that you run into problems.

If you are sooo smart that you are going to drive 3 miles to the nearest lit "safe" area then you have to know that the second part of doing that says that you call 911 and let dispatch know what you are doing so that the cops dont think you are running from them.

Instead, Dave decided to lead the cops blindly along, get out of his car, make demands and not comply with orders. To me that all equals EXACTLY what happened.

[Ezzzzy1]

And, if you want to use the whole "I was trying to be safe with my family in the car" thing, why the hell are you driving a car on a highway at 1am with the headlights and tailights not working?

Makes plenty of sense to me!

[~Barn~]

Dave Herman is a Dbag. To me, this is a classic case of someone that is hyper sensitive to the police that go out of their way to "take a stand" of their not so accurate beliefs.

Dumbass should have stayed in his car and started there. If you want to talk to cops like a normal human being and are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Its when you start taking things into your own hands and acting like a know-it-all that you run into problems.

If you are sooo smart that you are going to drive 3 miles to the nearest lit "safe" area then you have to know that the second part of doing that says that you call 911 and let dispatch know what you are doing so that the cops dont think you are running from them.

Instead, Dave decided to lead the cops blindly along, get out of his car, make demands and not comply with orders. To me that all equals EXACTLY what happened.

QFT

[bulldog]

The bottom line is the police are failing statistic state; people do not trust them and many fear them. Facts speak for themselves so as Townie said something needs to change because it appears to only be getting worse. If my company had this high of "bad" rankings we would be in major trouble, but as officers it is pushed aside. So Aaron can come on and justify his actions (and other police officers) but a lot of the public are showing the job officers do could be greatly improved and that should be considered rather than justifying the actions.

Here is just one article:

Click-> Do Americans trust their cops to be fair and just? New poll contains surprises. (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/01/15/one-third-of-americans-believe-police-lie-routinely/)

A few charts:
https://fusiondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/cops.jpg?quality=80&strip=all

http://libertasutah.org/img/survey/police/1.jpg
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/files/2015/01/Screen-Shot-2015-01-15-at-6.35.12-AM.png

[Ezzzzy1]

Here is his Facebook page that was setup for case updates.

My favorite comment:
"Dave, are you still trying to rationalize your mistake. Your wife said in the video that you knew the police were behind you. Now you want to trump up a claim that they could have been fake officers, time to give it a rest and take accountability for your actions. Your wife's claim about 3 forms of ID isn't correct and neither are you. If it was 3 forms of ID you would asking for 4, if it was 4 you would be asking for 5. Next thing you know, you will want a phone call from the chief to prove these are his officers. Guess what ! They were the police who stopped you and if you didn't act the way you did , you wouldn't have been tased. You are the only one to blame here. Take responsibility for your actions and stop trying to justify your mistakes."

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dave-Herman/767825406642893?fref=photo

[Ezzzzy1]

The bottom line is the police are failing statistic state; people do not trust them and many fear them. Facts speak for themselves so as Townie said something needs to change because it appears to only be getting worse. If my company had this high of "bad" rankings we would be in major trouble, but as officers it is pushed aside. So Aaron can come on and justify his actions (and other police officers) but a lot of the public are showing the job officers do could be greatly improved and that should be considered rather than justifying the actions.



You know who if "failing"? The human fucking race. Thats whos failing. If I was a cop I would probably go crazy dealing with fucking idiots that think they know what the hell is going on in life but somehow cant even brush their teeth in the morning. Or take care of their kids. Keep a job doing mindless shit. Contribute to society.

Yeah, if I was a cop I would taze the shit out of damn near everyone that couldnt follow simple directions. They would call me the zapper and I would dress like a super hero with a big set of tazer hooks and lightning bolts.

[bulldog]

Here is his Facebook page that was setup for case updates.

My favorite comment:
"Dave, are you still trying to rationalize your mistake. Your wife said in the video that you knew the police were behind you. Now you want to trump up a claim that they could have been fake officers, time to give it a rest and take accountability for your actions. Your wife's claim about 3 forms of ID isn't correct and neither are you. If it was 3 forms of ID you would asking for 4, if it was 4 you would be asking for 5. Next thing you know, you will want a phone call from the chief to prove these are his officers. Guess what ! They were the police who stopped you and if you didn't act the way you did , you wouldn't have been tased. You are the only one to blame here. Take responsibility for your actions and stop trying to justify your mistakes."

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dave-Herman/767825406642893?fref=photo

Bro, there is a lot more to the story you are missing. For one Herman did go to the closest light area (they were in a very rural area and report even state that was the closest). Second, his car was having electric problems so he was fearful of turning it off and have his wife and child standed in a dark desolate area; also why he had his lights off. Third, nobody is saying what he did was correct, but more to the fact that he was tazered when the video showed very little threat (sorry the two officers with guns, tazers, battons, etc felt scared of the one unarmed man. [at time they did not even know he was a trained fighter]." Basically people are questioning the "use of force" based on video; already been talked about on this thread but you guys are late to the party. Yes, Herman should have stayed in his car, yes Herman's wife was wrong about the forms of id, but couild it have been dealt with with less force is what was/is in question. Therefore these instances are why many people fear the police


You know who if "failing"? The human fucking race. Thats whos failing. If I was a cop I would probably go crazy dealing with fucking idiots that think they know what the hell is going on in life but somehow cant even brush their teeth in the morning. Or take care of their kids. Keep a job doing mindless shit. Contribute to society.

Yeah, if I was a cop I would taze the shit out of damn near everyone that couldnt follow simple directions. They would call me the zapper and I would dress like a super hero with a big set of tazer hooks and lightning bolts. I agree the human race is failing, but it is the job of the officer to deal with it; nobody forces someone to be a cop!

Well sounds like you missed your calling....still time to become a bully though! :lol: Let me know how that turns out Mr Zapper!

[Ezzzzy1]

Bro, there is a lot more to the story you are missing. For one Herman did go to the closest light area (they were in a very rural area and report even state that was the closest). Second, his car was having electric problems so he was fearful of turning it off and have his wife and child standed in a dark desolate area; also why he had his lights off. Third, nobody is saying what he did was correct, but more to the fact that he was tazered when the video showed very little threat (sorry the two officers with guns, tazers, battons, etc felt scared of the one unarmed man. [at time they did not even know he was a trained fighter]." Basically people are questioning the "use of force" based on video; already been talked about on this thread but you guys are late to the party. Yes, Herman should have stayed in his car, yes Herman's wife was wrong about the forms of id, but couild it have been dealt with with less force is what was/is in question. Therefore these instances are why many people fear the police



Im not late to the party, just now commenting. If the use of force is what is in question then it shouldnt be. What else should have happened? Should the cops have listened to Dave run his mouth for another 5 minutes while not following SIMPLE commands? Should the cops have complied with Daves delusional instructions to show him 3 forms of ID? No! Dave should have saved himself from any argument over force and simply done what we all know we need to do when we see an officer behind us. If he didnt want to do that and he was hell bent on going somewhere more lit and that was recording things "so that if he got shot by the cops it would be on tape" then he should have called dispatch and let them know.

As far as stats go, here are mine.

I am 75% sure that 90% of the time fucking idiots that think they know their head from their ass will make stupid decisions resulting in their OWN life discomfort. Im sorry but if you cant figure something as SIMPLE as a simple traffic stop then you have bigger issues. AND HES WHITE! :lol:

[#1Townie]

Dave Herman is a Dbag. To me, this is a classic case of someone that is hyper sensitive to the police that go out of their way to "take a stand" of their not so accurate beliefs.

Dumbass should have stayed in his car and started there. If you want to talk to cops like a normal human being and are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Its when you start taking things into your own hands and acting like a know-it-all that you run into problems.

If you are sooo smart that you are going to drive 3 miles to the nearest lit "safe" area then you have to know that the second part of doing that says that you call 911 and let dispatch know what you are doing so that the cops dont think you are running from them.

Instead, Dave decided to lead the cops blindly along, get out of his car, make demands and not comply with orders. To me that all equals EXACTLY what happened.

So being a dick is an automatic green light to using force?

[Slo]

Regardless who he or his wife is, this could have all been avoided if he followed simple instructions. The officers did not request anything out of the ordinary, everything escalated due to his actions. Obviously him and his wife knew they would make a fuss of this as she started recording.

Still the question remains, why was he without head and tail lights? And yeah, if he knew the vehicle had electrical issues, why were they out so late with their son?

In the end, he didn't comply, too many other variables where he was making a fuss, got what he deserved. Too much of society now wants to push the boundaries....

[bulldog]

So being a dick is an automatic green light to using force? That is how I am reading this too....you don't do exactly what I say and question me at all I have authority to taze you....and seems you condone this Ezzzy1????????

[Ezzzzy1]

So being a dick is an automatic green light to using force?

No. Being an ignorant, know-it-all thats non compliant to an officer is though.

You are not a cop but lets use the situation of when you helped that woman out. How many times would you have asked the guy attacking her to "stop" before going to the next step?

Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Sir please stop. Sir. Um, please. Stop. You are hurting her. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop?

[Ezzzzy1]

Compliance in life is sometimes enforced. Thats how it goes.

If you dont like it, then simply comply. If you dont like complying then keep to yourself and follow the rules.

[#1Townie]

Im not late to the party, just now commenting. If the use of force is what is in question then it shouldnt be. What else should have happened? Should the cops have listened to Dave run his mouth for another 5 minutes while not following SIMPLE commands? Should the cops have complied with Daves delusional instructions to show him 3 forms of ID? No! Dave should have saved himself from any argument over force and simply done what we all know we need to do when we see an officer behind us. If he didnt want to do that and he was hell bent on going somewhere more lit and that was recording things "so that if he got shot by the cops it would be on tape" then he should have called dispatch and let them know.

As far as stats go, here are mine.

I am 75% sure that 90% of the time fucking idiots that think they know their head from their ass will make stupid decisions resulting in their OWN life discomfort. Im sorry but if you cant figure something as SIMPLE as a simple traffic stop then you have bigger issues. AND HES WHITE! :lol:

Actually yes. I would rather see a cop sit there and try to work things out with the civi before using force.

That is exactly what I would like to see. And as for your comment about being Mr zapper. You do understand that people are starting to attack cops because of actions like that.. Right?

History has shown time and time again that you can only push so hard on the people before the snap and burn everything down.

Don't just wash that shit that happened in st Louis down the drain. People are sick of it. Period. In don't agree with their cause in that case but there is more than enough video out there that shows some truly fucked up situations. Cops shooting people on "accident". Breaking kids arms. The use of force needs to be rethought.


I mean we are technically living in a safer america than the 80 and 90s. Not sure why the cops all have to look like a cross between RoboCop and inspector gadget.

[#1Townie]

Compliance in life is sometimes enforced. Thats how it goes.

If you dont like it, then simply comply. If you dont like complying then keep to yourself and follow the rules.

Raw Video: Dash Cam Video of the Shooting: https://youtu.be/-XFYTtgZAlE

And if when complying gets you shot?

[Ezzzzy1]

Raw Video: Dash Cam Video of the Shooting: https://youtu.be/-XFYTtgZAlE

And if when complying gets you shot?

Meh... Its a close one on this one. Im 100% positive that the guy that got shot will move a little slower next time when reaching back into his car for his ID.

And YET another person that thought it was a great idea to get out of his vehicle when being pulled over.

[#1Townie]

Meh... Its a close one on this one. Im 100% positive that the guy that got shot will move a little slower next time when reaching back into his car for his ID.

And YET another person that thought it was a great idea to get out of his vehicle when being pulled over.

Ha!! I showed you that video on purpose. I will show you the whole video after this. But he was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

Cop Asks Diver For His License Then Opens Fire On Him When He Goes To Gr...: https://youtu.be/zVnKxdMzEXM

Hands up don't shoot brah.

Here you go bro. Comply.

What would you do?: https://youtu.be/UXkSmoAIaK4

[bulldog]

http://oels.byu.edu/student/idioms/proverbs/images/the_pen.jpg

To me this is a very powerful statement and I give credit to anyone that can use "words" over "force". So yes I feel police should have restraint even if it does take longer to use words. Idiots use force, but a smart man can difuse with words!

[Ezzzzy1]

Ha!! I showed you that video on purpose. I will show you the whole video after this. But he was already out of the car when the cop pulled up.

Cop Asks Diver For His License Then Opens Fire On Him When He Goes To Gr...: https://youtu.be/zVnKxdMzEXM

Here you go bro. Comply.

What would you do?: https://youtu.be/UXkSmoAIaK4

Awe man! You so got me! Shucks!

So your saying that the guy that got shot in the video you just showed me didnt do anything wrong? :lol:

There is a difference between "complying" and working through a process. I would have told the cop that my id was in the car and then would have waited for him to instruct me to get it.

Just like on motorcycles. For anyone not in the know, you should ask the officer BEFORE just getting off your bike. To me, any sudden uninstructed movements could land your ass somewhere unintended when it comes to the PoPo.

To me its just common sense. Which leads me to my next set of stats:

I am 90% sure that 87% of all people dont have common sense.

[#1Townie]

Awe man! You so got me! Shucks!

So your saying that the guy that got shot in the video you just showed me didnt do anything wrong? :lol:

There is a difference between "complying" and working through a process. I would have told the cop that my id was in the car and then would have waited for him to instruct me to get it.

Just like on motorcycles. For anyone not in the know, you should ask the officer BEFORE just getting off your bike. To me, any sudden uninstructed movements could land your ass somewhere unintended when it comes to the PoPo.

To me its just common sense. Which leads me to my next set of stats:

I am 90% sure that 87% of all people dont have common sense.

Okay fine. So why did the cop put the last round into the guy when he had his hands up? Clearly no longer a threat.

Oh.. And just so we are clear. The cop lost his job. So again you would be wrong on all accounts.

But I guess you would be okay with your wife being stripped searched right?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_phone_call_scam

[Ezzzzy1]

To me this is a very powerful statement and I give credit to anyone that can use "words" over "force". So yes I feel police should have restraint even if it does take longer to use words. Idiots use force, but a smart man can difuse with words!


Sure, I think most people could agree. However, thats "ideal" and how many situations are that? Especially ones that involve the cops.

I bet the amount of situations that are resolved by the cops not using force of any kind GREATLY outnumber the ones that they do.

[Ezzzzy1]

Okay fine. So why did the cop put the last round into the guy when he had his hands up? Clearly no longer a threat.

Oh.. And just so we are clear. The cop lost his job. So again you would be wrong on all accounts.

Actually, for me to be wrong you would have to contact the guy that got shot and ask him "would you move slower next time when jumping back into your car to grab your ID?". Cus thats all I said foo.

Im guessing the cop put the last round into him because he had lack of training and control. Do you want to know why I think that? BECAUSE THATS WHY HE LOST HIS JOB :)

Lets bet $100 that neither of the two cops involved in Dave Hermans case get fired? Wanna? Wanna?

[#1Townie]

Actually, for me to be wrong you would have to contact the guy that got shot and ask him "would you move slower next time when jumping back into your car to grab your ID?". Cus thats all I said foo.

Im guessing the cop put the last round into him because he had lack of training and control. Do you want to know why I think that? BECAUSE THATS WHY HE LOST HIS JOB :)

Lets bet $100 that neither of the two cops involved in Dave Hermans case get fired? Wanna? Wanna?

I have a better one for you. How many cops are going to have to be gunned down before change is made? They work for us not the other way around.

And as for you post to bulldog.

So you are saying that cops can't use peace to resolve things?

Do I need to remind you that I did repo for six years? I never had to get physical with someone. Oh but let me guess people are just so happy to see me at three in the morning dragging their car down the street right?

Or midnight seeing me loading their bike into the back of a truck.

Oh I know its not the same job. Why? Because I have to work with people. If the cops get called I don't get the car. If a fight happens the coos get called. Actually its really hard for the cops to not get called.

Oh and thanks to the TV shows when a repo guy does call for help he's treated as a low life who should probably just take his taxing because he has a dirty shirt.

I'm not actually buying into this much further. I think I'm being played at my own game. But you had me this far.

[bulldog]

Sure, I think most people could agree. However, thats "ideal" and how many situations are that? Especially ones that involve the cops.

I bet the amount of situations that are resolved by the cops not using force of any kind GREATLY outnumber the ones that they do. Well the way it is now doesn't seem to be working. Doubt anything has changed other than the community having greater access to document these issues.

You just seem to have had great experiences with police officers. I truly wish I could say the same thing, but I honestly cannot.....I've had a few good cops help me out, but unfortunately I've had more negative experiences.....all the way down to a cop telling me he pulled me over because I was Hispanic in a rich neighborhood (his words).

[Ezzzzy1]

Well the way it is now doesn't seem to be working. Doubt anything has changed other than the community having greater access to document these issues.

You just seem to have had great experiences with police officers. I truly wish I could say the same thing, but I honestly cannot.....I've had a few good cops help me out, but unfortunately I've had more negative experiences.....all the way down to a cop telling me he pulled me over because I was Hispanic in a rich neighborhood (his words).

Ive had my fair share of run-ins.... The crazy part was, even if I was being a punk ass kid I still knew to respect the police. 9 out of 10 times I deserved what I got. The other few times stunk but were lessons. Sure its not fun being profiled and pulled over for things that werent fair or even legal but thats the way it goes sometimes. Especially when the "stats" are against you (as in, maybe most thefts in the rich neighborhood were committed by Hispanic males).

[bulldog]

Ive had my fair share of run-ins.... The crazy part was, even if I was being a punk ass kid I still knew to respect the police. 9 out of 10 times I deserved what I got. The other few times stunk but were lessons. Sure its not fun being profiled and pulled over for things that werent fair or even legal but thats the way it goes sometimes. Especially when the "stats" are against you (as in, maybe most thefts in the rich neighborhood were committed by Hispanic males).
So you feel it was justifiable to pull me over because I was Hispanic in a rich neighborhood....even though I did nothing wrong.......pretty sure that is called racial profiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling) and illegal!

Then I am sure it is worse for blacks....then people wonder why some are afraid to trust cops....exactly my point. Sheesh EJ was meant to be a cop for sure! :lol:


And so you know my family owns nearly 100 acres in that "rich neighborhood" and not my fault it is primarily owned by Anglos in a Hispanic majority town. Even nicer the cop told me it was because I was Hispanic; how professional!

[#1Townie]

So you feel it was justifiable to pull me over because I was Hispanic in a rich neighborhood....even though I did nothing wrong.......pretty sure that is called racial profiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling) and illegal!

Then I am sure it is worse for blacks....then people wonder why some are afraid to trust cops....exactly my point. Sheesh EJ was meant to be a cop for sure! :lol:


And so you know my family owns nearly 100 acres in that "rich neighborhood" and not my fault it is primarily owned by Anglos in a Hispanic majority town. Even nicer the cop told me it was because I was Hispanic; how professional!

Didn't you read his post? According to him laws don't count for cops. We need to all learn a lesson from our keepers.

How dare you be brown in a white neighborhood!

[bulldog]

Didn't you read his post? According to him laws don't count for cops. We need to all learn a lesson from our keepers.

How dare you be brown in a white neighborhood!

:spit: It is true though...to officers!

That is one of the reasons people distrust cops because we all know cops have eachothers back. So many stories of cops being pulled over for DUI's but because they are a cop they get away with it; and even to the point where officers that do turn in other cops tend to be retaliated against. All the way from traffic stops to domestic violence there have been cops let go........ Cops can deny this, but we all know it happens; heck how many times have we put a cop riding with us at the front because we knew if they got pulled over they would be let go....seen it happen!

[Kim-n-Dean]

You know who if "failing"? The human fucking race. Thats whos failing. If I was a cop I would probably go crazy dealing with fucking idiots that think they know what the hell is going on in life but somehow cant even brush their teeth in the morning. Or take care of their kids. Keep a job doing mindless shit. Contribute to society.Reminds me of this weekend when the dip shit at the McDonald's drive-thru screwed up my order. He clearly only has his Associates in Drive-Thru and not his Masters. And these retards picket for $15/hr.

[Ezzzzy1]

So you feel it was justifiable to pull me over because I was Hispanic in a rich neighborhood....even though I did nothing wrong.......pretty sure that is called racial profiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling) and illegal!

Then I am sure it is worse for blacks....then people wonder why some are afraid to trust cops....exactly my point. Sheesh EJ was meant to be a cop for sure! :lol:


And so you know my family owns nearly 100 acres in that "rich neighborhood" and not my fault it is primarily owned by Anglos in a Hispanic majority town. Even nicer the cop told me it was because I was Hispanic; how professional!

I wasnt there. I dont know all the facts.

I will say that I want my neighborhood patrolled and if crime is down because the cops are pulling people that might look out of place over and busting their balls so be it.

I will also say, that while racial profiling is NOW illegal it hasnt always been and id be even more willing to bet that whenever this happened to you was BEFORE any such laws existed. I suppose you would have to look that up for yourself and see but my guess as to why the cop was so open about why he was pulling you over was because it was legal to pull someone over just because of the color of their skin.

Here is an even crazier thought. What if it wasnt 100% because of the color of your skin? What if there was other factors that went into play? Like, say - time of day? Condition of your car? Any other things that stuck out, like speed of your car? Whether you made a complete stop at the stop sign.... Etc etc.

I dont know man. Sure, I can side with you and say that it must have sucked but really its not the end of the world. The victim roll would be to say that is something that has "scared" you instead of using it all as a learning experience.

You of all people should be happy that laws have been passed to protect innocent kids from driving around rich neighborhoods and mindlessly getting pulled over. Heaven for bid any cop was ever trying to prevent a crime :lol:

[Ezzzzy1]

Didn't you read his post? According to him laws don't count for cops. We need to all learn a lesson from our keepers.

How dare you be brown in a white neighborhood!

Lets assume you are the one "reading posts". Show me where in any of my posts that I said "laws dont count for cops".

[The Black Knight]

Reminds me of this weekend when the dip shit at the McDonald's drive-thru screwed up my order. He clearly only has his Associates in Drive-Thru and not his Masters. And these retards picket for $15/hr.

Dude I hear that!! I've felt like when I get to the drive-thru speaker, and just telling the person on the other end, "hey, since you're going to screw up my order anyway, how about I just give you some money and you put what you think I might want in the bag." Gotta love crappy service these days. I even wonder if some of the people in these drive-thru's can even read. Because they hand you stuff that you don't even order. Or my favorite is when you're getting multiple different flavor drinks for people and the person doing the drinks just gives you all Diet Coke's. I mean really?? At least show some initiative.

I agree, these dick bags picket for $15 and hour but then give you $5 worth of work. Which will happen eventually. Then the cost gets passed on to the consumer. Now, not only do I have to pay for wrong stuff in my order, now I have to pay "MORE" for it and I'm having to pay "MORE" for crappy service.

I have however found a way to really piss them off. I ask for the manager, I explain in a polite and professional manner what has happened. And then ask for my money back. I tell them I don't want the correct order anymore, I want my money back and I'll go somewhere else. That hurts businesses more than anything else, when you take the money away from them. Cause then, they have to eat the botched order and the time it took to make it. I did this a few months ago at a local Popeyes, and the guy next to me had his order messed up as well. He did the same as me, asked for his money back. Told the manager that I had just got done talking to, "well if that guy can get his money back, I want mine back as well." The manager lady was pissed!! She just turned her back to both of us and instructed one of her minions to issues us our money back.


P.S.
sorry for the
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh581/DNA_SWIRL_777/Stuff/threadjack_zpsyhpvcbki.jpg

[Ezzzzy1]

Nate. So lets say that Racial Profiling is a crime and blablabla... How is that or any point revolving around it relevant to Dave Hermans case? If you are saying F the Police because of "A", "B", "C" (all of your points) then how are any of your points connected to what happened to Herman?

I mean, if you are saying that cops are crooked and are always doing things that they shouldnt I would actually use the video that you provided as proof that citizens are pieces of shit and even more so I would use that same video to show how a situation with a shithead should be dealt with.

I will make the same bet with anyone. Put yo money where yo mouth is. $100 says neither of the two officers involved will loose their jobs over this.

I might even be willing double down and say that neither will see punishment from what came of that night.

[Aaron]

Actually yes. I would rather see a cop sit there and try to work things out with the civi before using force.
I do this, nearly every single time. My last use of force went from an unconscious party to a fight in less than a second. I just watched the video again. "Don't fight him, don't fight him." The commands are ineffective or ignored, he continues to fight. I yell 3 times for him to "Stop fighting!" I then yell "Taser Taser you're going to get Tased stop fighting!" The commands and warnings are ineffective, he continues to fight. The Taser is deployed and effective. After the Taser is deployed he tells us "I don't want to hurt anyone, I'll cooperate, please."

The Taser was deployed 9:17 minutes into our contact. Amazing, he went 9 minutes and 14 seconds without being beat up, shot, racially profiled, yelled at, without me showing any force besides being there, and I was trying everything I could to help him. Had a fire truck and ambulance run Code 3. He made the decision to fight the firefighters, and ignored 8 commands or warnings to stop fighting. 8 warnings! 8 times I tried to end his violent attack without using violence myself.

Was he thinking clearly? No. Did he know he was fighting cops and firefighters? I truly don't think so at that instant. But he knew I was a cop, that's why he approached me to begin with (I was in a gas station getting a drink when he did). All 7 of us were in uniforms, we had two fully marked cop cars, a bright yellow fire engine with lights on, and a red white and blue ambulance with its lights on. "Sir, while you are trying to assault this paramedic, can I show you my 3 forms of ID?"

Seriously Townie, come ride. You will see more patience and restraint than even you could expect from a Police Officer. I speak for myself, and the guys I work with. That's how confident I am in them.

[Ph03niX]

My points for this thread.

1) Police ride alongs are cool and interesting!

2) We seem to think that police abusing the system is getting higher and higher, but what if we're just seeing more and more of it because of tv, news stations, and social media. Back in the day, they didnt have anything but the newspaper. So there wasnt much insight on what was going on everywhere. Now everyone can see everything! .. just a thought.

[Aaron]

But how many forms?

Just one!

[Captain Obvious]

Seriously Townie, come ride. You will see more patience and restraint than even you could expect from a Police Officer. I speak for myself, and the guys I work with. That's how confident I am in them.

No, its impossible. The millions of officer interactions that occur every week and result in nothing is always offset by the dozen of videos and salacious headlines.

And clearly, if someone asks the general population an opinion survey, it must reflect reality.

[bulldog]

I wasnt there. I dont know all the facts.

I will say that I want my neighborhood patrolled and if crime is down because the cops are pulling people that might look out of place over and busting their balls so be it.

I will also say, that while racial profiling is NOW illegal it hasnt always been and id be even more willing to bet that whenever this happened to you was BEFORE any such laws existed. I suppose you would have to look that up for yourself and see but my guess as to why the cop was so open about why he was pulling you over was because it was legal to pull someone over just because of the color of their skin.

Here is an even crazier thought. What if it wasnt 100% because of the color of your skin? What if there was other factors that went into play? Like, say - time of day? Condition of your car? Any other things that stuck out, like speed of your car? Whether you made a complete stop at the stop sign.... Etc etc.

I dont know man. Sure, I can side with you and say that it must have sucked but really its not the end of the world. The victim roll would be to say that is something that has "scared" you instead of using it all as a learning experience.

You of all people should be happy that laws have been passed to protect innocent kids from driving around rich neighborhoods and mindlessly getting pulled over. Heaven for bid any cop was ever trying to prevent a crime :lol: Again it sounds like you totally support racial profiling! Facts, no facts when it comes to profiling! I am sure it is because you have had little of it happen to you, but I feel if you were out into others shoes you would understand it better. Very hard to explain to someone that doesn't understand it, but it is not a good feeling to be profiled just because of the way I look or the color of my skin. If Hispanics were robbing the area that does not mean every Hispanic is that way.

No, the cop was open to say his comments because back then there were no small recorders and it would come down to my word against him......and guess who would win that one...always the officer!

You are making excuses for the officers EJ and you were not there and I can 100% say I was doing nothing wrong, my car was not a factor, etc. Again sounds like you have not seen the bad part of police officers (there are some really good one too). I grew up in a poor area and the difference you see is huge compared to the upper scaled neighborhood I assume you live in now (and I do too)! I've seen cops plant drugs, put my friend into ICU (he sued and won, but damage to him was done), false charges/arrests, etc.

It may not be "the end of the world" to you, but again seems like this is not something that effects you so of course you would feel this way. I am not saying I am one either, but a racial profiling and racism do exist and it is bad for some!

Would you like me to tell you about the lady I got fired at work for calling me a "spic"; yet I was born in this country and so were my last 5 generations, or maybe the guy that told me to go back to Mexico if I want to speak Spanish in his country; when I do not even speak Spanish. Oh or maybe the guy I got fired at Walgreens because he told me "I am from this country so I can do math better than a Mexican like you". This was all in last 10 years! You have met me and I don't even look "Mexican" (I am Spanish). So honestly do you really have these things happen to you? Would you feel different if they did? Would you feel good about it?


Nate. So lets say that Racial Profiling is a crime and blablabla... How is that or any point revolving around it relevant to Dave Hermans case? If you are saying F the Police because of "A", "B", "C" (all of your points) then how are any of your points connected to what happened to Herman?

I mean, if you are saying that cops are crooked and are always doing things that they shouldnt I would actually use the video that you provided as proof that citizens are pieces of shit and even more so I would use that same video to show how a situation with a shithead should be dealt with.

I will make the same bet with anyone. Put yo money where yo mouth is. $100 says neither of the two officers involved will loose their jobs over this.

I might even be willing double down and say that neither will see punishment from what came of that night. Man this has all been discussed months back when this thread was made, but ok I'll summarize pretty easily: This could have been dealt with better. I've already pointed out parts in the video where I clearly did not see that Dave was doing anything other than asking for ID (yes he was being loud); I see no attempts to attack the police. When he was tazed the officers was on the side of Dave and he did not make any moves to go at the opfficer; he was in process of kneeling and as he did so he was tazed (that was my take from video). Not saying what Dave did was the best as it was not, but why is force always used so fast.....that was the main point. You may want to go back and read all the posts man since you are late to this party :lol:

Bet???? WTF...why would I bet when this is exactly what I am saying....cops have the power and there word usually comes down over your own and it is very hard to challenge them. You can see at end the officer clearly messed up and forgot to turn on his own dashboard camera so all we have is Dave's wifes video....believe me without that this would not even have got this far. And basically the whole issue here was "was physical force needed"....yet "forms of id", "he wasn't respectful to cops", "he waited till a lighted area" etc have got polluted into this when it all came down to why was he tazed.

How about instead we use that money and bet on a good olde fashion arm wrestle? I'll even double the money if you win and I will use my weaker left hand :D




My points for this thread.

2) We seem to think that police abusing the system is getting higher and higher, but what if we're just seeing more and more of it because of tv, news stations, and social media. Back in the day, they didnt have anything but the newspaper. So there wasnt much insight on what was going on everywhere. Now everyone can see everything! .. just a thought. I agree 100%! That is why these videos keep popping up that expose some of this and why we may need to think about a change how police officers deal with some situations.



And to clear it up I do not hate Police officers at all....just the crappy ones. There are some awesome cops and I have actually met a few on this board in past. I do respect an appreciate what they do...the good ones!

[bulldog]

Ok, here is another good one on racial profiling that happened to me last week!


I work in a high-rise building downtown. I am dressed in business slacks and button up dress shirt. I walk into restroom and am at the sink washing my hands when this guy walks in:


Guy: Hey what’s going on with the walls out there?
Me: I don’t know looks like they must be repainting
Guy: Did you also notice the men bathroom sign is broken
Me: Yeah I saw that last week it got broken
Guy: Well can you get that fixed?
Me: Me? No I can’t get it fixed
Guy: Well can you at least report it or open a ticket
Me: I can inform my company and see if they can tell building management
Guy: (gets a puzzled look on his face) Oh you don’t work for maintenance.
Me: No, I work for same company as you
Guy: Sorry thought you worked for maintenance


So my only guess could be since all the maintenance men are Mexican in my building, it was assumed I was also one of them. I did not have a maintenance badge or anything to hint I was part of maintenance so what else could I assume?


Yet in your thinking it is ok for this guy to assume this because of profiling? I mean all the other maintenance men are Mexican so it is ok to assume other Hispanics in building must be too based on what you call “facts”.

[#1Townie]

No, its impossible. The millions of officer interactions that occur every week and result in nothing is always offset by the dozen of videos and salacious headlines.

And clearly, if someone asks the general population an opinion survey, it must reflect reality.

Well to argue that point all the unarmed people being shot is a little redundant as officer fatalities have dropped as much as they have.

How can an officer really expect me to believe he was afraid when he had body armor. A tazer. A shot gun. An ar15. Pick whatever 40cal he likes with a few mags.

A knife. Brass knuckles. Backup one call for help away.

The suspect? Nothing. T shirt and jeans.

[Ezzzzy1]

Nate Dogg.... Ive been profiled and ive already said its not fun. I am however not of the "victim" mentality. Im sorry the road has been tough on you. I am in NO way saying I support racial profiling or making excuses for the cops.

Maybe I should say that I support profiling (simply). What if 911 had been stopped (by the ticket lady at the airport, the one that felt bad profiling someone that looked like a "terrorist"). What if it stops someone from selling crystal meth to middle school kids. I dont care what color you are, if you look like a terrorist or a drug dealer and im a cop I just might sweat you depending on the surrounding circumstances.

Either way. The argument is more of a personal one for you than it is for me. I have been pulled over because of the color of my skin and questioned before, a few times but I choose to not carry that bag of crap around with me.

For what its worth, racial profiling laws didnt really start to fall into place until 1996 on the federal side, anything before that point was free game. On top of that, each state has their own set of laws. Profiling is still legal as long as it doesnt violate anyone civil rights, as it should be.

[#1Townie]

Ej why would anyone take that bet when cops can murder cuffed people and not get in trouble?

[VIDEO] Handcuffed unarmed man shot dead by El Paso police, Daniel Rodri...: https://youtu.be/by2_Bks1AWc

[bulldog]

Well to argue that point all the unarmed people being shot is a little redundant as officer fatalities have dropped as much as they have.

How can an officer really expect me to believe he was afraid when he had body armor. A tazer. A shot gun. An ar15. Pick whatever 40cal he likes with a few mags.

A knife. Brass knuckles. Backup one call for help away.

The suspect? Nothing. T shirt and jeans. I am very curious on the reply to this because this is exactly what confuses me; all that protection and scared of one guy in a tshirt because he was loud and "in shape". :dunno:


Nate Dogg.... Ive been profiled and ive already said its not fun. I am however not of the "victim" mentality. Im sorry the road has been tough on you. I am in NO way saying I support racial profiling or making excuses for the cops.

Maybe I should say that I support profiling (simply). What if 911 had been stopped (by the ticket lady at the airport, the one that felt bad profiling someone that looked like a "terrorist"). What if it stops someone from selling crystal meth to middle school kids. I dont care what color you are, if you look like a terrorist or a drug dealer and im a cop I just might sweat you depending on the surrounding circumstances.

Either way. The argument is more of a personal one for you than it is for me. I have been pulled over because of the color of my skin and questioned before, a few times but I choose to not carry that bag of crap around with me.

For what its worth, racial profiling laws didnt really start to fall into place until 1996 on the federal side, anything before that point was free game. On top of that, each state has their own set of laws. Profiling is still legal as long as it doesnt violate anyone civil rights, as it should be.

Well glad to hear you do not support “racial profiling” because I really was thinking you did. I get what you mean and in a perfect world people like meth sellers, terrorists, etc would fit the part, but the fact is there is not a specific way any of those look. So is it fair to the Muslim guy he gets stopped for being a terrorist all the time just because it may save someone in future. Should every time a black person robs another person that gives the right to stop every black person to make sure they are not going to rob someone….and why because they are black. I don’t get it because I have seen messed up people in every race so it is not about race to me but about humans that we all are; good and bad. To me there is no way to label people based on looks……

I am not complaining, just putting it out there that it happens. I actually laugh at these people now because they are just ignorant and that is hard to fix.

[#1Townie]

Ok, here is another good one on racial profiling that happened to me last week!


I work in a high-rise building downtown. I am dressed in business slacks and button up dress shirt. I walk into restroom and am at the sink washing my hands when this guy walks in:


Guy: Hey what’s going on with the walls out there?
Me: I don’t know looks like they must be repainting
Guy: Did you also notice the men bathroom sign is broken
Me: Yeah I saw that last week it got broken
Guy: Well can you get that fixed?
Me: Me? No I can’t get it fixed
Guy: Well can you at least report it or open a ticket
Me: I can inform my company and see if they can tell building management
Guy: (gets a puzzled look on his face) Oh you don’t work for maintenance.
Me: No, I work for same company as you
Guy: Sorry thought you worked for maintenance


So my only guess could be since all the maintenance men are Mexican in my building, it was assumed I was also one of them. I did not have a maintenance badge or anything to hint I was part of maintenance so what else could I assume?


Yet in your thinking it is ok for this guy to assume this because of profiling? I mean all the other maintenance men are Mexican so it is ok to assume other Hispanics in building must be too based on what you call “facts”.

Stop being a victim bro. God.

[#1Townie]

I am very curious on the reply to this because this is exactly what confuses me; all that protection and scared of one guy in a tshirt because he was loud and "in shape". :dunno:

He did do as he was told. He deserved it and is lucky they didn't use him as target practice.

[bulldog]

He did do as he was told. He deserved it and is lucky they didn't use him as target practice.
Just funny….I have tried to fight two guys at once and learned fast this is not the movies and way harder than it looks. Then add that the two guys have weapons and body armor I could not imagine it would be that difficult; especially with “training” that police state they get. Heck if not call in some more officers before just tazing a guy; not like he was in process of harming anyone with his loud mouth (let’s be honest that is all it was because Herman never threatened them or made any type of moves I saw to harm the officers…just a loud mouth).

[#1Townie]

Just funny….I have tried to fight two guys at once and learned fast this is not the movies and way harder than it looks. Then add that the two guys have weapons and body armor I could not imagine it would be that difficult; especially with “training” that police state they get. Heck if not call in some more officers before just tazing a guy; not like he was in process of harming anyone with his loud mouth (let’s be honest that is all it was because Herman never threatened them or made any type of moves I saw to harm the officers…just a loud mouth).


Yeah man its kind of sad to see people okay with it.