How do we save PMP?

[aspenbum]

I figured I would start a place for us to discuss the future of PMP. The track day riders, road racers, and drag racers need to step up if we want this awesome track to survive. I know that we can all come together to make help make suggestions for constructive improvements to the operations, safety, staffing, and protocols of the PMP facilities in order to gain the support of the Colorado Sportbike Community.

IMO Judy has too much on her plate for one person to handle effectively, efficiently, safely, and productively. She doesn't have support like Glenn does at HPR and we all know what happens when even a professional level facility looses support i.e. PPIR. I think if we can help her do some of the navigating she can do more of the piloting.

So where do we start? Prioritize. What is most important to you? What is most important to the track? What solution can we come up with that meets both interests in the middle?

Pueblo was my first track that I ever rode on. I drove from Aspen on a Friday after work and tried to do a couple of drag passes before the evening ended before a Saturday track day. I made it there with 45 min left and unpacked all of my stuff and went to tech and was denied. I returned to my truck to find my wallet and other stuff had been stolen out of my truck. I was hungry, tired, had no money, and still had not rode my first ever track prepped bike. I decided to get some sleep and laid down in the back of my Jimmy thinking it was ok to stay at the track. Well a little while later, I was awoken by Judy and got yelled at for riding in the pits without signing a waver (no one was at the gate and tech girl didn't ask for a wristband or a signature), was told I wasn't allowed on the property, was also told that she was going to call Mark Schellenger (who was running the next day's event) and tell him that I wasn't allowed to participate, and I got kicked out, had to pack up my pit and go sleep in my Jimmy on the other side of the gate. Which I did, without remark, thinking I was in the wrong and praying that I was going to be allowed to ride the next day. I did ride the next day, and I learned an extremely large amount of information and was hooked on track riding for the rest of my life, regardless of the horrible experience that I went through to get there.

I continue to ride at Pueblo every chance I can afford to make, because I love the track, even turn 10. Could my experience be better when I go to Pueblo, absolutely. Could it be worse, absolutely. Is it going to change overnight, no; but it has changed, for the better. Let's help continue the change in the right direction.

I think it would be good to start with everyone's opinions on what is good and what is bad with PMP as it currently stands. Lets get a good list of topics for discussion and then discuss them individually one by one. Hopefully we can get some input from Judy and/or other members of the PMP so we know what is in the scope of reality when it comes to improvements. Maybe this is going to work, maybe not, but at least I tried.


The Good:
Track days are priced low and offer 2for1 specials
Track surface is superior when dry
Local amenities provide for excellent accomodation for overnight trips
Best accommodation for spectators to view the entire track

The Bad:
Understaffed for a safe track day and/or race day - corner workers, crash crew, concessions
No medic on site
No mandatory riders meetings that explain track safety, procedures, and layout.
Those prickly things that stick in everything
No Shade
Limited power hookup
Security is lack

My Priorities:
1. Safety
2. Ability to operate a secure, comfortable, & powerful pit area
3. Event scheduling
4. Track logistics
5. Price of event
6. Food at the track
7. Sleeping accommodations

My ideas for improvement:
1. Always staff an ambulance for any motorsports event. Period. No questions, no excuses. I don't feel safe enough without it. I never will. This is non-negotiable with me. I will not ride without it just like I wont ride without a helmet. For me, asking someone to do that is like telling them its okay to ride without a helmet or proper gear. It is a blatantly disregard for human life and the safety of all individuals. I don't care if the fire house tells you it is only 6 mins away, what if there is a fire!? I will only accept immediate response from a certified and trained ON SITE First Responder and nothing else.

2. I've never had a riders meeting at any non-MRA event at PMP. The last time I rode there, two riders blew turn 1 and were attempting to re-enter the track counter direction as I was coming down the straight full speed in 6th gear on my 750. If I wasn't an experienced rider and that was my first time, that could have turned into an extremely serious if not deadly crash. Imagine what would have happened if that happened and no medic was on site and you have 3 seriously injured riders. All of which could have been prevented with a simple 10 min meeting explaining the proper protocol for on track riding, and if there were trained corner crew.

3. Always staff corner crew that are trained on flagging and use the flags appropriately as well as a crash cart. I remember the first time I ran off at PMP was turn 4. Not fun. Especially because there was no one there to help me pick up my bike, which wouldn't re-start due to a broken start switch. So I had to push it back to the pits from the most northern part of the property. Not fun. I remember Hollywood had the same issue where his bike died at the end of the straight two different times and had to push his bike back to the pits both times.

4. Clean up the pits. I know I can't bring my dogs to PMP because those hog's heads (the prickly things that are everywhere) get into their pads and. And I'm always getting them in my tires which then go into my hands and yeah they blow. Get a leaf blower and clean up the pits please. Then get some weed killer and kill whatever those things are. Then get some more weed killer and kill them again and again.

5. Install more power options. I know this takes more than a bottle of electricity but seriously make a plan to run some lines and install some permanent 30A and 50A fixtures. This will attract a large amount of the money spenders who can afford the big rigs that require these hookups.

6. At least have a vending machine for the days you don't staff a concession stand. But please at least be open from 11-2 with hot dogs, chips, and waters.

7. Let people stay the night inside the gate. Have them sign a wavier, put it on the website that its okay, or if not make a sign at the gate that explains the policy. This will encourage the mountain folks to come more often if they know they can at least stay there if they want to show up the night before or let them know that they need to make hotel accommodations. Some information is better than none.

[Radek]

it would be nice if they moved track to Denver area . I never been there .I like PPIR ,but look where it is .Its a joke .Look at Miller park .Great track layout but there is something in pile of wood

[Radek]

it would be nice if they moved track to Denver area . I never been there .I like PPIR ,but look where it is .Its a joke .Look at Miller park .Great track layout but there is something in pile of wood.If track like PPIR was standing next to Thunder Valley on I-70 ,it could be much interesting to public not just club racing.So when public don't care for this area in this area then it will evolve in club only but not national venue.
You either adjust to those conditions or go to war against those who don't support racing at all .

[Radek]

I wouldn't ride Pueblo for free.

[bulldog]

Great post :up:
Wish I knew more about PMP to comment…..



P.S.More replies! Didn't a bunch of people just complain that there is not enough "sportbike"talk! Well here we go….a good start for a good cause! Yes, I see a few (ok one person replied so far in two days), but we need more opinions as I know a lot of you have at least seen the track

[Kim-n-Dean]

... I decided to get some sleep and laid down in the back of my Jimmy thinking it was ok to stay at the track.We've brought our RV and boat to PMP and camped at the track. Get there Friday night, go to Pueblo reservoir Saturday and do a track day Sunday. We've camped there for every track day we've attended. Why are you not allowed to stay at the track anymore?


Well a little while later, I was awoken by Judy and got yelled at for riding in the pits without signing a waver (no one was at the gate and tech girl didn't ask for a wristband or a signature), was told I wasn't allowed on the property, was also told that she was going to call Mark Schellenger (who was running the next day's event) and tell him that I wasn't allowed to participate, and I got kicked out, had to pack up my pit and go sleep in my Jimmy on the other side of the gate.Wow!! That sounds pretty rude!! We're you acting a fool? If not, why the bitch session? Way to make people want to spend money at your track...

[Drano]

I like the thought you put into your post. I will say this, of the seven points you outlined, only one of them involves little to no expense from the track management, #7. For PMP to be saved, it will require serious investment from people that have the money and are willing to spend that money improving facilities, services, accommodations, and marketing.

Some suggestions I have to save PMP:
1) Petition the local government (who own the land) to subsidize the expenses necessary to improve the facility.
2) Begin a fundraising campaign like gofundme to procure the funds needed and donate them to PMP. This one would also require establishing an awareness campaign and hope that it generates enough interest from the public to be effective
3) Contact Judy and ask if you could create a volunteer force to provide a few of the services that are currently lacking.
4) Find a way to seek out investors who would be willing to partner with Judy and ease the financial burden needed to run/improve PMP.

In the case of PMP, the idiom "It takes money to make money" is wholly relevant. They are in the goods and services industry. While geographically they have no close competition, they are still going to be compared to the goods and services provided elsewhere, namely HPR. If PMP wants to compete with HPR, they have to offer similar amenities. They may actually have to go above and beyond to draw people in, because PMP is at a disadvantage in terms of customer base. HPR can pull from the Denver Metropolitan area (~2.7 Million people), but PMP basically has Pueblo (~110,000) and Colorado Springs (~440,000). There has to be an incentive for Denver customers to drive the greater distance to visit PMP. They're not going to to that if they already have something better in their own backyard.

In the other thread discussing PMP, it was argued that the track could be saved if people would go there and ride it, then Judy would have the money to provide those services. To me, it seems like those people are putting the cart before the horse. It's like saying that you love a restaurant that serves terrible food, and doesn't have many repeat customers other than a few regulars. In order to prevent the restaurant from going out of business, the solution being offered is that people should spend their money on terrible food until the owners can afford to hire a trained chef with proper cooking appliances. It just doesn't work that way, and it isn't the fault of the customers.

[madvlad]

I honestly don't see PMP being saved, these issues have been talked about for years and they either remain the same or get worse. I'd never ride Pueblo.

[Spooph]

I've never been to PMP, because I've always perceived it as being really far away. Turns out it's only 2hrs from where I live... Might have to make it down there this summer for an open lapping day. Gas is cheaper than HPR's track day fees, even with a punch pass... Organize an event and let's get some people down there. Motorsports are on the decline for sure as it's expensive. All the medical services make it even more expensive, and Pueblo has a reputation for being unsafe. That's not gonna jive with the new, typically scaredy-cat rider of today.

[tecknojoe]

No Ambulance, no riding. period. 6 minutes is too long of a response time, and I highly doubt the kids running the corners will make the call immediately. 1, 2, and 3 from AspenBum's comment.

I'm not going to bitch about a 2 hour drive, I've driven 5 times as far for a track day

[big_sur]

I think they made the wrong move with their race series. They're not going to compete with MRA and racing is too intimidating for people to pick it up as a first-time-to-the-track experience.

I think they'd be a lot better off if they invested their efforts in standing up a real track day program that has some time on the weekends. MRA has one weekend track day and there are a lot of people out there (like me) that A. don't want to take off work for track days and B. don't want to be completely liable for crashing an expensive street bike (track days are covered by my insurance, competition\racing\timed events are not).

Safety is obviously the first issue that needs to be addressed, but after that, I think they'd do well to set up an east-coast style scheme where they give free track time to coaches who in turn spend a few sessions in the morning teaching a beginner class and then just lap around giving advice when asked and maintaining safety on the track for the rest of the day. It requires no capital outlay and getting new people to the track is the only way to build volume and revenue. I think most people are intimidated by the concept of going to the track but if you stand up a couple hour class to go over the basics so they are more comfortable, don't do something dumb, and provide a little hand holding through that first day, they're going to get hooked. Another thing that seems to work well back east is giving a free "session" at lunch to track noobs with relaxed equipment requirements. It's basically a few parade laps, but it gets people out there and eases them into it. People just need more structure than what they have down there. I mean, can you imagine, never having been to a track day before, showing up to Pueblo and them saying, "have at it." People need more structure than that to get into something new.

I think ultimately we all feel bad for them, but it's just kind of poorly managed and I don't think they have a clear\reasonable business plan to move forward.

[Snazzy]

The negative comments here (one coming from someone who does like 2 track days a year lol) are really sad and annoying.... let me explain:

It doesn't matter WHO is running the track, don't have enough money then you don't have enough money. Barely anyone even comes out for the MRA events, yet there is an ambulance there, so what's the excuse?
There was a full track day for $60 and maybe 10 people showed up, with an ambulance there. So what's the excuse?
You can't help the track because people don't want to "drive so far" The problem is us, the riders, not the person running it.

More riders = improvements
Until then, you can talk all you want but that doesn't make money fall from trees.

I love PMP. It's an awesome track and well worth riding. If it were to go away because of all these fair weather riders, I'd be fairly upset.
/rant

[madvlad]

Then go dump all your money, simple. Not all of us like the track or want to drive that far, period. Would you go somewhere forcefully if you didn't want to? No, let it go.

[Nolan]

Just some stupid questions here....
How long does it take for the ambulance to get from HPR to the nearest basic hospital?
Given a 10 minute response time for PMP then to the nearest basic hospital?

[Drano]

Snazzy, I appreciate your fervor to save PMP, but businesses don't operate on charity. PMP is a business and the riders are its customers. If a business can't keep its doors open because customers don't want to shop there, then the blame for its failure rests squarely on its own shoulders. It isn't the customer's responsibility to line the owners' pockets. The business has to be able to bring something to the table that the customers want/need. If they aren't capable of providing those things, whatever they may be, then the customers will choose to take their business elsewhere and, absent any government intervention (bailouts), economic evolution will take its place: the business will die.

There is a bright side, however, usually when a poorly run business fails, it gets absorbed. In the case of PMP, the land is owned by Pueblo City, so the track won't be going anywhere. It may sit dormant for a while until Pueblo can find another management group to take the lease, but hey, maybe the next group will do a better job running the place by providing better services to the customers, and that would be a good thing.

[Aaron]

Just some stupid questions here....
How long does it take for the ambulance to get from HPR to the nearest basic hospital?
Given a 10 minute response time for PMP then to the nearest basic hospital?
This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.

[Snazzy]

You don't even go to HPR, Damir, so you really wouldn't make a difference at PMP.

Anyways,
My point is, you want medical care on track and more corner workers? We need more than 2 people showing up on a weekend. There is a reason HPR has a 10 person minimum.
Ambulance and corner workers seem to be the biggest issue here.



Excellent point Aaron. I never thought of that, but it's definitely a great side of the ambulance argument.

[aspenbum]

If track like PPIR was standing next to Thunder Valley on I-70 ,it could be much interesting to public not just club racing.So when public don't care for this area in this area then it will evolve in club only but not national venue.
You either adjust to those conditions or go to war against those who don't support racing at all .
First Thunder Valley is on C-470, second the general public does want to go to PMP, for drag racing not road racing. This is the goal of RMRS is to gain more interest in the road racing aspect of the motorsports fans that do come there.


We've brought our RV and boat to PMP and camped at the track. Get there Friday night, go to Pueblo reservoir Saturday and do a track day Sunday. We've camped there for every track day we've attended. Why are you not allowed to stay at the track anymore?

Wow!! That sounds pretty rude!! We're you acting a fool? If not, why the bitch session? Way to make people want to spend money at your track...

I was not acting a fool, I only rode my bike to tech and back. This was before Judy was running the show, she was only running the drag racing event at the time. I believe now you can stay there, but my point is there is no policy or rules on the website or at the track.


I like the thought you put into your post. I will say this, of the seven points you outlined, only one of them involves little to no expense from the track management, #7. For PMP to be saved, it will require serious investment from people that have the money and are willing to spend that money improving facilities, services, accommodations, and marketing.

Some suggestions I have to save PMP:
1) Petition the local government (who own the land) to subsidize the expenses necessary to improve the facility.
2) Begin a fundraising campaign like gofundme to procure the funds needed and donate them to PMP. This one would also require establishing an awareness campaign and hope that it generates enough interest from the public to be effective
3) Contact Judy and ask if you could create a volunteer force to provide a few of the services that are currently lacking.
4) Find a way to seek out investors who would be willing to partner with Judy and ease the financial burden needed to run/improve PMP.

In the case of PMP, the idiom "It takes money to make money" is wholly relevant. They are in the goods and services industry. While geographically they have no close competition, they are still going to be compared to the goods and services provided elsewhere, namely HPR. If PMP wants to compete with HPR, they have to offer similar amenities. They may actually have to go above and beyond to draw people in, because PMP is at a disadvantage in terms of customer base. HPR can pull from the Denver Metropolitan area (~2.7 Million people), but PMP basically has Pueblo (~110,000) and Colorado Springs (~440,000). There has to be an incentive for Denver customers to drive the greater distance to visit PMP. They're not going to to that if they already have something better in their own backyard.

In the other thread discussing PMP, it was argued that the track could be saved if people would go there and ride it, then Judy would have the money to provide those services. To me, it seems like those people are putting the cart before the horse. It's like saying that you love a restaurant that serves terrible food, and doesn't have many repeat customers other than a few regulars. In order to prevent the restaurant from going out of business, the solution being offered is that people should spend their money on terrible food until the owners can afford to hire a trained chef with proper cooking appliances. It just doesn't work that way, and it isn't the fault of the customers.

These are some good ideas, some of which I hope Judy is exploring. I would point out that if you are going to take over the lease of a race track, you should have your financial planning in alignment before you are allowed to sign that lease. So where is the alignment for the road racing? Have you ever been to a Friday night drag at PMP? There are cute girls in skirts greeting the people at the gate, multiple consessions, a track announcer, full drag crew, tech inspection, the whole nine. My point being, the funds have been mis-appropriated, mis-managed, mis-handled call it whatever you want.

I would gladly pay the same amount of money that Glenn charges to ride at PMP if it was ran the same way as HPR or PPIR when they host track days. Maybe we need to start a track day buisness and rent the track out and run it the right way to show people how fun it can be. Then with the business generated it can once again flourish on its own.


I think they made the wrong move with their race series. They're not going to compete with MRA and racing is too intimidating for people to pick it up as a first-time-to-the-track experience.

I think they'd be a lot better off if they invested their efforts in standing up a real track day program that has some time on the weekends. MRA has one weekend track day and there are a lot of people out there (like me) that A. don't want to take off work for track days and B. don't want to be completely liable for crashing an expensive street bike (track days are covered by my insurance, competition\racing\timed events are not).

Safety is obviously the first issue that needs to be addressed, but after that, I think they'd do well to set up an east-coast style scheme where they give free track time to coaches who in turn spend a few sessions in the morning teaching a beginner class and then just lap around giving advice when asked and maintaining safety on the track for the rest of the day. It requires no capital outlay and getting new people to the track is the only way to build volume and revenue. I think most people are intimidated by the concept of going to the track but if you stand up a couple hour class to go over the basics so they are more comfortable, don't do something dumb, and provide a little hand holding through that first day, they're going to get hooked. Another thing that seems to work well back east is giving a free "session" at lunch to track noobs with relaxed equipment requirements. It's basically a few parade laps, but it gets people out there and eases them into it. People just need more structure than what they have down there. I mean, can you imagine, never having been to a track day before, showing up to Pueblo and them saying, "have at it." People need more structure than that to get into something new.

I think ultimately we all feel bad for them, but it's just kind of poorly managed and I don't think they have a clear\reasonable business plan to move forward.

I think this is a perfect plan actually


The negative comments here (one coming from someone who does like 2 track days a year lol) are really sad and annoying.... let me explain:

It doesn't matter WHO is running the track, don't have enough money then you don't have enough money. Barely anyone even comes out for the MRA events, yet there is an ambulance there, so what's the excuse?
There was a full track day for $60 and maybe 10 people showed up, with an ambulance there. So what's the excuse?
You can't help the track because people don't want to "drive so far" The problem is us, the riders, not the person running it.

More riders = improvements
Until then, you can talk all you want but that doesn't make money fall from trees.

I love PMP. It's an awesome track and well worth riding. If it were to go away because of all these fair weather riders, I'd be fairly upset.
/rant
I was at that track day, and the bus was only there from 11-2. I went and was willing to ride without one just because it was the first day my bike was actually running. However, it wasn't advertised very well and it isn't all going to fall into place on the very first track day that she has. IT DID start to spread the word that she is going to have the bus there for the RMRS series as long as we commit to going.


Just some stupid questions here....
How long does it take for the ambulance to get from HPR to the nearest basic hospital?
Given a 10 minute response time for PMP then to the nearest basic hospital?
Probably 1 hour for HPR and 30 min for PMP. But let me ask you this, if you crash on your bike, cut your leg open and your femoral artery is cut, do you really want to wait 10 min for the bus to show up or would you rather have that bus on site ready to apply immediate response? Truth is you'd be dead if they weren't there in 10 min and the bleeding was under control.


Snazzy, I appreciate your fervor to save PMP, but businesses don't operate on charity. PMP is a business and the riders are its customers. If a business can't keep its doors open because customers don't want to shop there, then the blame for its failure rests squarely on its own shoulders. It isn't the customer's responsibility to line the owners' pockets. The business has to be able to bring something to the table that the customers want/need. If they aren't capable of providing those things, whatever they may be, then the customers will choose to take their business elsewhere and, absent any government intervention (bailouts), economic evolution will take its place: the business will die.

There is a bright side, however, usually when a poorly run business fails, it gets absorbed. In the case of PMP, the land is owned by Pueblo City, so the track won't be going anywhere. It may sit dormant for a while until Pueblo can find another management group to take the lease, but hey, maybe the next group will do a better job running the place by providing better services to the customers, and that would be a good thing.

I truely don't want to see this track go dormate. I really do love riding there but it is up to us to help the customers stay interested if we want to keep riding there. Ultimately it's the business responsiblity to attract customers but most business gain more from word of mouth through their customer base then through local advertising- which there isn't much of. Why not try do keep what we have while we have it available?

[aspenbum]

You don't even go to HPR, Damir, so you really wouldn't make a difference at PMP.

Anyways,
My point is, you want medical care on track and more corner workers? We need more than 2 people showing up on a weekend. There is a reason HPR has a 10 person minimum.
Ambulance and corner workers seem to be the biggest issue here.

HPR only mandates 10 people min for winter because there isn't a full schedule of events over the winter to pay for the low show track days. The problem with PMP is that all of the revenue generated throughout the entire summer season isn't spent on the road racing track days. Its spent to promote and provide for the drag nights. The reason why HPR can afford the bus and the staff is because they appropriate the funds to do so by filling their schedule with events for the entire summer season and use the profits efficiently. The winter is not busy thus, mandating a minimum sign up.

[Drama2]

With this being said PMP is having a 2 for 1 on 7 June.

[Okrapp]

I think it's great that folks are actively seeking improvements to the Pueblo track services. If any consensus comes for ways to attract additional riders by improving these, count me in to assist. I'll be there at the track anyway. For me, it's close and great. I'm looking to hit HPR too at some point in the near future for a super-street or track day too. Why? Because it sounds like a cool track to go ride and it shouldn't be a competitive thing of only riding one vs the other. I'll do 2hr rather than 45min now and then. I think we should be glad there's options. The sport should be supported. If you don't personally want to ride there for one or more reasons, okay. But, let's not be against the existence of a place where others are able to get into this experience. Imagine someone who had only ever ridden COTA or any of the GP circuit tracks looking at HPR and not caring if it came or went?

For any significantly expensive improvement of desired services preempting arrival of more riders, petitioning of Pueblo governing officials with guidance/coordination of track management would likely be the best route for any concerned group of persons. Again this comes back to who has $.

For initial promotion for the location, tracks in general, or hell anyone who wants to ride any type of street-going bike well, send them to the Sunset clinics. The price is going up to $100 this year. But, for anyone wanting curriculum from one of the most sought after schools anywhere, that's affordable. I didn't know average mortals could go to track days for less than CEO incomes and wouldn't have had inclination/confidence to try before that. I've seen a few old threads here from old respected members lauding the course. Dates for this year are on the PMP calender or sunsetriderclinic has one of those facebook things. You'll need a street legal ride and don't need full leathers.

For the track circuit itself when talking to people there, I haven't heard any of the MRA or more-frequently-to-HPR folks say anything about the track itself being unsafe or anything other than a blast. Yeah, you need to be disciplined on turn 10, but you knew that going in - you can literally see that drag rubber from space.

For EMS on site concerns, two of the three race series events so far had significant number of registrants and EMS was there both times. If you want to race and it doesn't interfere with plans elsewhere, sign up and you get your ambulance. I don't think this is fixed for track days in the near future but, for the race series there are corner workers and EMTs. And if you're already MRA, you already have a motorsportreg.com account and just click, done.

Some have suggested the track or race series is competing with HPR/MRA. No. That's just silly and just, no. It's just another option based on geography/finances or you don't have an event up there on that date.


No matter what happens, I'm still riding PMP as long as I'm able and we still can.

[Jmetz]

You don't even go to HPR, Damir, so you really wouldn't make a difference at PMP.

Probably not the best way to garner support.

[Aaron]

For those saying they will not go to PMP. That's fine, but there's no need to post. There's only 2 truly valid reasons, and that's lack of medical, and the first part of the front stretch being sketch. For medical, that's what we're trying to change, so help us instead of bitching. Call Judy, tell her you'd sign up if she'll sign AMR. As for the front stretch, ya, there's one corner you can't take 100% at. Aim for the center on exit, and you're fine. Now if you simply just don't like the track, that's fine, but you're no help, so stay out.

The fact that PMP includes a 1/4 mile drag track is the only reason we still have a PMP, so we need to respect the dual purpose.

We can get PMP to the level it needs to be. Look at the drag track. It can't hold a candle to Bandi, and yet it's packed every Friday. People bring their freaking Luminas there to race. So advertise for them. I didn't know what a track day was until enough of you guys pressured me into trying it, now I can't get enough of it. So tell your friends at work who talk about their new exhaust on their car, tell the guys who ask if you want to race, and bring your friends. Then every time you go, tell Judy she needs an ambulance.

As for the cutting your artery example, I realize it's just an example, not arguing that, but that is an easy injury to live through with the most basic of medical care. Stop the bleeding with a tourniquet, and get to a trauma center for surgery.

[WolFeYeZ]

Probably 1 hour for HPR and 30 min for PMP. But let me ask you this, if you crash on your bike, cut your leg open and your femoral artery is cut, do you really want to wait 10 min for the bus to show up or would you rather have that bus on site ready to apply immediate response? Truth is you'd be dead if they weren't there in 10 min and the bleeding was under control.


The nearest good hospital is 6 miles or 13 minute drive from PMP, including the access road. In an ambulance, probably under 10 minutes. In some circumstances, I could see that saving your life compared to HPR.

As for solving the ambulance issue, it could be a good idea for PMP to hire an EMT, a driver and buy an ambulance. Hell, the driver could even flag a corner where the ambulance is.

[Drano]

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who view riding the track without EMS present as a relative non-issue, how many of you have ever been injured to such an extent that you needed one?

[UglyDogRacing]

This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.


Not sure where you're getting the "very rural crew" from or the lack of equipment or personnel experience, but the ambulance service used by HPR, and the MRA, is Western Ambulance and they are based out of Denver. Their staff receives very specific training for Motorsports events, which I and both MRA and HPR Board staff have attended. HPR also has it's own mobile fire suppression in place so a local fire crew is not necessary. When we hold our round at Pueblo, we use Western Ambulance, not AMR. I would not entrust the safety of our riders with any other service.

You clearly have had a lot of experience with AMR due to your law enforcement background but it has nothing to do with operating a motorsports event.

[j0ker]

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who view riding the track without EMS present as a relative non-issue, how many of you have ever been injured to such an extent that you needed one?
Me.... Laid there holding my leg back together for 2 hours then another hour before I was actually at a hospital.

[madvlad]

Probably not the best way to garner support.

It's okay man, must be nice to have the money and time to be at every track day possible lol, some of us aren't as lucky. Even with all that and I'm still faster on a slow ass 03 R6 than most novices out there including canyon king on his 1k gixxer aka BMW killer, funny how that works... Imagine if I had seat time *starts pondering*... I'm not worthy :lol:.... those that know me know the reason why I don't have money to put at the track and it's called supporting my family.

[madvlad]

Not sure where you're getting the "very rural crew" from or the lack of equipment or personnel experience, but the ambulance service used by HPR, and the MRA, is Western Ambulance and they are based out of Denver. Their staff receives very specific training for Motorsports events, which I and both MRA and HPR Board staff have attended. HPR also has it's own mobile fire suppression in place so a local fire crew is not necessary. When we hold our round at Pueblo, we use Western Ambulance, not ALS. I would not entrust the safety of our riders with any other service.

You clearly have had a lot of experience with ALS due to your law enforcement background but it has nothing to do with operating a motorsports event.

Corner working I've seen nasty crashes first hand and how effective and quick these guys/girls work, they're kickass.

[hcr25]

This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.


I'm curious to know when you were there and you saw this "rural" ambulance crew?

[Spooph]

Using myself as a case study - previously I didn't want to go to PMP because everybody's response was usually "it's a crappy track without the right support". Now that "the right support" has been fleshed out and I can accurately assess the risk, I really want to go.

This is a great example of not only a great thread and reasonable discussion, but also how social media can change the perception of a track. Gonna do my best to make it out to PMP this year....

Thanks for all the info folks!

[Ezzzzy1]

PMP is great especially when its you and 3 of your buddies and the whole track is yours to do what you want :lol:

Currently in talks to do a track day with Nick Ienatsch down there if anyones interested in info shoot me a PM.

[Slo]

Ambulance crew, yes it's awesome to have them around, but even without it, still much safer riding at the track than what happens up in the hills every day. So you won't ride at the track when there is no ambulance crew onsite, but will venture up to the hills surrounding yourselves with complete unknowns with other riders that are probably less skilled than at the track, other vehicles, nature, worse road conditions, cliffs, law enforcement/tickets, or worse and the thousand other things?

I like PMP, did car days there before I ever stepped foot on there with 2 wheels. If I still had a capable car, would be a blast to go down there for a track day with the car and bike. Have met Judy and she is awesome, great character. As far as distance, we all have become spoiled with having access to so many tracks nearby.... and the price. Yes, even Pueblo is not a long distance, even if your from Boulder/Longmont comparing with other parts of the country I have lived.

For me, it would be nice to have power out there, shade in the form of garages/carports would be awesome but a dream for many obvious reasons. If they were to put power out there, I would give them the funds from getting rid of a generator or, the funds from having to buy one.

[One-ops]

I like riding there and hpr. I'd ride them more if I wasn't broke.

[The GECCO]

This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.

I'm also curious where you get this "rural crew" stuff? You need to be more informed before you spout off.

From day one at HPR we have used Western Ambulance, and we only use ALS buses, not BLS (for those that don't know what all these acronyms are: an ALS bus is staffed with one Paramedic and one EMT, a BLS bus is staffed with two EMT's. AMR is American Medical Response, the name of the largest ambulance service in Colorado). Western Ambulance is the ONLY ambulance company in Colorado that trains specifically for motorsports, I have had a hand in creating their training program and have been a part of it every year since I first hired them to work for the MRA more than a decade ago. They know how to deal with the equipment that riders and drivers wear, the vehicles, etc. They know how to cut leathers off along the seams so that they can be repaired. They know the workings of the track and how to respond to certain areas of the track quickly and safely, where I've personally seen other crews completely freak out over the idea of going out on a racetrack. We get consistent crew members because they have very low turnover. Virtually ALL of the clubs also use Western Ambulance, this consistency leads to a familiarity and trust between the track staff and the medics that adds to the safety of the participants.

As for them not having the equipment or experience that AMR does - When Mike Applehans crashed in the Pikes Peak Hill Climb, the medics from AMR that responded literally didn't know how to unbuckle his helmet! He got frustrated and told them to just cut the strap. I won't go as far as saying that AMR is bad, but I will absolutely say that in the area of motorsports Western Ambulance is FAR superior.

HPR has also paid to have an 800mhz radio on site so that we can talk directly to Air Life, Flight for Life, Northern Colorado Med Evac, etc. We are the ONLY track in Colorado that has this.

[Gramps]

I think PMP is a blast to ride and have done several track days there every year I have lived here. So I would tell anyone that it is a great option if they want to ride the track. Is it HPR? Well no but Glenn and Mike and for that matter all the clubs involved have done a great job of continuous improvements and marketing to keep the track going in the right direction.

With that being said I think the main things they need are marketing and safety improvements.

Marketing by someone being vigilant about posting up dates on the various websites to remind people about track days. Especially the weekend track days that are rare because of prearranged events. I would probably do several this year and bring some other riders with me.

Safety is obvious and has been beat to death. Correct me if I am wrong here but there was a time early on when HPR had "abbreviated" services. By that I mean there were corner workers but not in every corner and the EMT's of course. What I am getting at is there is a way to drastically improve safety without having to go all in at first and everyone wins. Again I could be wrong here. As far as the meetings that could be self managed by the riders if someone will step up at the events. Rybo and Ralph have done these in the past. It's not rocket science just a quick refresher on the rules and track directions.

my .02

[The GECCO]

Correct me if I am wrong here but there was a time early on when HPR had "abbreviated" services. By that I mean there were corner workers but not in every corner and the EMT's of course.

Yes and no. We have gone through some revisions over the years regarding which corners we do and do not staff on lapping days based on a combination of being able to see the entire track and having workers with a flag in the corners that have a combination of high incidents and/or blind entrances, etc. We have had to ask the ambulance crew to fill in on the rare occasion that more than one worker calls off at the last minute or something unusual happens.

[hcr25]

To add to what Glenn said.

On motorcycle lapping days HPR usually has workers in 6 of the 13 corner stations. From those spots the entire track is covered visually. Everyone has radios to communicate any incidents.

HPR has also recently installed a series of PTZ cameras to help track day and race control. Over the next couple of weeks HPR is installing safety warning lights in every corner station and start finish. These will also help with safety and with future endurance races.

[Gramps]

Ok so the only reason I brought that up was to point out that PMP would not have to have a corner worker in every corner as long as the whole track can be seen and monitored. Pretty amazing what you guys have done to solve the issue by the way.

Thanks for the input!

[tecknojoe]

Don't they watch from only the tower sometimes? That's another case where I wouldn't ride

[blaircsf]

Ambulance crew, yes it's awesome to have them around, but even without it, still much safer riding at the track than what happens up in the hills every day. So you won't ride at the track when there is no ambulance crew onsite, but will venture up to the hills surrounding yourselves with complete unknowns with other riders that are probably less skilled than at the track, other vehicles, nature, worse road conditions, cliffs, law enforcement/tickets, or worse and the thousand other things?

I adjust how I ride depending on the circumstances. I always ride within my limits, but how close to my limit I try to push depends. There are differences in how I ride in the canyons, at IMI, unstaffed track days, track days, races, etc. I'll agree a track with no support is safer than open roads, but if I'm just going to ride at 50% ability (as an example), there really isn't a point in paying for a track day. There are things to work on and practice without pushing the limits, but the conditions, location, people around definitely affects how I ride.

[Slo]

I adjust how I ride depending on the circumstances. I always ride within my limits, but how close to my limit I try to push depends. There are differences in how I ride in the canyons, at IMI, unstaffed track days, track days, races, etc. I'll agree a track with no support is safer than open roads, but if I'm just going to ride at 50% ability (as an example), there really isn't a point in paying for a track day. There are things to work on and practice without pushing the limits, but the conditions, location, people around definitely affects how I ride.

Hi I'm SLO and I fully endorse this message...... LOL 100% agree with above.

[Kim-n-Dean]

All you guys freakin' out over PMP would have shit a brick at a Second Creek track day!! They would run cars and bikes together. I've had my knee on the ground and my helmet on a car door at the same time...

I absolutely love PMP! Loved La Junta, too. Corner workers or an ambulance was never a consideration on whether I would go or not. What keeps me from going is the high price. With Kim being a track junkie, too, everything at our house is X2. Got spoiled on the $45 all day at SCR.

[hcr25]

Man!! It's amazing any of us survived Second Creek!! They would run cars and bikes together. I've had my knee on the ground and my helmet on a car door at the same time...

I absolutely love PMP! Loved La Junta, too. Corner workers or an ambulance was never a consideration on whether I would go or not. What keeps me from going is the high price. With Kim being a track junkie, too, everything at our house is X2. Got spoiled on the $45 all day at SCR.


I agree about the good old days. Then two people were killed at La Junta. Had there been at a minimum a riders meeting talking about to get on and off the track safely that accident probably never would have happened. An ambulance may have helped but it certainly wouldn't have made things worse.

[Kim-n-Dean]

I agree about the good old days. Then two people were killed at La Junta. Had there been at a minimum a riders meeting talking about to get on and off the track safely that accident probably never would have happened. An ambulance may have helped but it certainly wouldn't have made things worse.
Terrible, terrible situation for sure!! I've never been at Second Creek where people weren't told how to enter and exit the track. The La Junta incident should have never happened. From what I was told, a rider who had never been on the track was put on an experienced racers bike and was given no instruction. How could you send a beginner out and tell him nothing?!? My god!! And it cost two people their lives. Complete waste!!!

It also pisses me off that the parents of the rider who caused it, sued. I understand that they were upset, but Jesus Christ!! Your kid caused it!!!!!!!!

BTW - Applesauce, how ya doin'?

[Drano]

Yes, there are more risks and obstacles on the street, but that doesn't mean a track is immune from danger, it's just more predictable. The track is a place where you have the opportunity to ride faster than would on the street in a much safer environment, but riders still crash, many times at higher speeds. If a rider loses the front while on the brakes at the end of the main straight at 120 MPH it's likely going to become a bad day. An ambulance might even be needed. But there won't be one, not for 10 - 15 minutes or so.

So when you hand Judy your $150 what are you are paying for? What makes it a safer environment? If it's only for clear pavement I'd say you're getting ripped off. You still have traffic, it's just going in the same direction. Hell, with a full tank of gas I can ride out into the mountains and find plenty of clear pavement, have the time of my life, encounter less traffic than you will during the course of your lapping day, ride a lot safer than you are, have the same amount of ambulances on hand (0), and I didn't pay $150 for it. Will I encounter traffic to and from my street ride? Yes, and unless you live next door to the track, so will you.

So how many of you track riders go to the track without accepting the fact that you may crash? I don't know that I would have much confidence in the conditions, the other riders, or myself for that matter, regardless of how safe the track happens to be, because I'm of the firm opinion that disaster can strike at any time. If I'm going to be spending my hard earned money to ride the track, I'm riding it because I'm ensured that I'll be taken care of should the worst happen. PMP won't get a cent of my money until they are able to offer that.

[UHATEIT]

I rode PMP last August at one of the Sunset Safety Clinics with Nick Ienatsch and thought it was a nice place. It was my first time ever on a track and I had fun. Anyone concerned about serious injuries or the need for an ambulance should just ride within their limits and they should have any issues having a crash that would warrant an ambulance to show up. For the safety clinic it was $60 and it was some of the best $ I've spent since owning a bike. I'd have no problem riding on that track again, I just dislike the long trip straight trip to get there.

[Bueller]

I have no issues riding PMP without a bus there, you take at least as big a risk if not more in the mountains, and there is no ambulance there. I have walked away from all but a couple of crashes at the track. It is nice to have medical on site for sure but you do have to pay for it.
And whining about how far the track is just bitch ass bullshit. Driving a couple of hours for a trackday is a luxury for a lot of people. I drove 4 to 10 hours for some good trail riding (very far from medical). A couple hours ain't shit.
I like Pueblo now after the repave but to me HPR is a far superior track. I have ridden all the recent history tracks, and was greatly saddened when they started closing. I would hate to see PMP close but they have had the same problems for years, and no one seems to be able get it all on track. I'll probably take the Mustang to car days but not sure about the bike.

[tecknojoe]

Anyone concerned about serious injuries or the need for an ambulance should just ride within their limits and they should have any issues having a crash that would warrant an ambulance to show up.

Completely disagree with this

[WolFeYeZ]

So when you hand Judy your $150 what are you are paying for? What makes it a safer environment? If it's only for clear pavement I'd say you're getting ripped off. You still have traffic, it's just going in the same direction. Hell, with a full tank of gas I can ride out into the mountains and find plenty of clear pavement, have the time of my life, encounter less traffic than you will during the course of your lapping day, ride a lot safer than you are, have the same amount of ambulances on hand (0), and I didn't pay $150 for it. Will I encounter traffic to and from my street ride? Yes, and unless you live next door to the track, so will you.


You pay for the 3 year old repave, no cars, no opposing traffic and no objects to slam into when you fall off. Falling off an sliding into the dirt is much safer than falling off and sliding off a clif, or into a metal guard-rail. You also pay so that you don't end up with a 12 point ticket, losing your licence, and $$$. You pay so you know what is going to be around the next bend, not a boulder or a car or a pothole, but the same corner you passed less than 2 minutes before. You pay for flaggers to let you know when something happens to be on the track. You do get a lot for your $150, or $75....

Have you ridden PMP Drano?

[RichSC]

Anyone concerned about serious injuries or the need for an ambulance should just ride within their limits and they should have any issues having a crash that would warrant an ambulance to show up.


Completely disagree with this

+1. The whole point of the track is to have a safer, more controlled environment. Shit happens, and often times it's out of your hands. Now I'm not saying you need to go out and ride over your head, but the chance of serious injury is still present even while staying within your limits.

I'm new to the state and all of these tracks, and after coming from Hawaii where we have nothing for motorsports venues, I'm pretty happy to have the 3 here in state. Distance doesn't bother me at all, my only concern is some of the other posts I've read from people that have been about safety issues. The ambulance, definitely something I think should be there for events. Riders meeting, why are those not mandatory for all events? That is a very important part that takes what, 15-20 minutes, and would be beneficial to everyone, especially if there are people there that have never been.

I will be there for the MRA round in June, and would like to make it down there for a lapping day at some point this season to see how things are.

[UHATEIT]

I was waiting to get shit for my comment. Sure enough! I mean nothing negative by saying it. What I am saying is that for me as a FIRST TIMER on my first ever track session I felt in no way scared that I would crash hard enough to need an ambulance. Thats not saying it couldn't happen. But I rode within my limits and felt perfectly safe at this PMP track. I would ride it again without the worry of whether or not there was an ambulance there. Still things can happen, but that would not be a deterrant for me not to go to this place again.

[sag]

i think it was an Erico day i did at hpr with no corner workers or bus. dont crash ya sallys!


(i kid, i kid)

[Drano]

You pay for the 3 year old repave, no cars, no opposing traffic and no objects to slam into when you fall off. Falling off an sliding into the dirt is much safer than falling off and sliding off a clif, or into a metal guard-rail. You also pay so that you don't end up with a 12 point ticket, losing your licence, and $$$. You pay so you know what is going to be around the next bend, not a boulder or a car or a pothole, but the same corner you passed less than 2 minutes before. You pay for flaggers to let you know when something happens to be on the track. You do get a lot for your $150, or $75....

I'm sure you do, but make no mistake, you are paying $150 for the assurance of safety. That assurance is provided to you at the agreed upon price by the owners of the facility. Assurances aside, the only guarantee of a track day is that you won't get a ticket. I can guarantee I don't get a ticket on the street too, it's called, "Don't Speed". But I digress, in my opinion $150 is a lot of money. Is it cheaper than HPR? That depends on what you are willing to sacrifice. To me, my safety is of tantamount concern. I don't wear a helmet and full gear with armor because it looks cool. I don't ride crazy on the street for the same reason. At a track, however, I'm spending money to ride faster than I could legally do on the street. Why? Because riding fast is fun! However, I'm simply unwilling to sacrifice an aspect of my safety that weighs heavily on my mind: the ability for EMS to get to me promptly should I crash and get hurt. Others don't see it as an issue, and hey, it's their life to lose. I can't say I understand it, but it's their choice to make. I, however, won't be pressured to make compromises in that regard.


Have you ridden PMP Drano? No, I haven't, for obvious reasons. But why does it matter if I have or have not? As a potential customer I have the right to evaluate whether it makes sound financial sense to spend $150 at a facility intended to provide a safe environment and to offer my criticisms regarding any aspect I find to be lacking, or questionable. It's my money and my safety at stake.

I could just as easily ask: Have you ever crashed a motorcycle? Did you nearly die? Did you spend several weeks in a hospital? If your answer is, "no" then I could argue that you simply don't understand how valuable it is to have rapid first response. It will factor into any decision that involves an increased risk to safety, which, make no mistake, increases exponentially as speeds get higher. Since I'll be riding faster than I would on the street, I want EMS response to be faster as well.

[Snazzy]

It's okay man, must be nice to have the money and time to be at every track day possible lol, some of us aren't as lucky. Even with all that and I'm still faster on a slow ass 03 R6 than most novices out there including canyon king on his 1k gixxer aka BMW killer, funny how that works... Imagine if I had seat time *starts pondering*... I'm not worthy :lol:.... those that know me know the reason why I don't have money to put at the track and it's called supporting my family.

When were you faster than the BMW killer?
Anyways, I digress....

As for shade, just wait till the swarm of moths comes. On a serious note, I'd say that is far off into the future and we won't know how far out unless someone can sit down with the owner and look at numbers. Same goes for power, which never seems to be an issue at track days.

Turn 10 isn't a big deal unless you make it into one. Are you trying to win the track day? If not, then take it easy in that turn and enjoy the other 9.



Instead of bickering opinions about whether or not you'd ride on the track. Let's all sign up for a day, get 10+ people, and ask Judy if that is enough to afford an ambulance and corner workers. Then everyone can experience how great of a track PMP is while being safe and having fun. From there we have more people on board to help save the track and thus problems can be solved.

[aspenbum]

PMP is great especially when its you and 3 of your buddies and the whole track is yours to do what you want :lol:

Currently in talks to do a track day with Nick Ienatsch down there if anyones interested in info shoot me a PM.
I did a track day there with Nick and it was amazing! However, there was no bus on site, and I didn't feel comfortable riding at a fast practice/slow race pace so that I could get a good evaluation from such an amazing teacher. BUT the advice and evaluation that I got helped me to get multiple MRA podiums that year but at the time I was feeling a little ripped off.


I agree about the good old days. Then two people were killed at La Junta. Had there been at a minimum a riders meeting talking about to get on and off the track safely that accident probably never would have happened. An ambulance may have helped but it certainly wouldn't have made things worse.
This is a huge deal with me. IMO Judy is overwhelmed on her trackdays and doesn't really make the time to sit everyone down and go over the proper instructions. However, at the first RMRS event we did have a riders meeting that went over flags, track on/off, pit, and safety procedures, but only like 6 people showed up and it was raining. I didn't go the last event because im broke, trying to race a full MRA season.



Yes, there are more risks and obstacles on the street, but that doesn't mean a track is immune from danger, it's just more predictable. The track is a place where you have the opportunity to ride faster than would on the street in a much safer environment, but riders still crash, many times at higher speeds. If a rider loses the front while on the brakes at the end of the main straight at 120 MPH it's likely going to become a bad day. An ambulance might even be needed. But there won't be one, not for 10 - 15 minutes or so.

So when you hand Judy your $150 what are you are paying for? What makes it a safer environment? If it's only for clear pavement I'd say you're getting ripped off. You still have traffic, it's just going in the same direction. Hell, with a full tank of gas I can ride out into the mountains and find plenty of clear pavement, have the time of my life, encounter less traffic than you will during the course of your lapping day, ride a lot safer than you are, have the same amount of ambulances on hand (0), and I didn't pay $150 for it. Will I encounter traffic to and from my street ride? Yes, and unless you live next door to the track, so will you.

So how many of you track riders go to the track without accepting the fact that you may crash? I don't know that I would have much confidence in the conditions, the other riders, or myself for that matter, regardless of how safe the track happens to be, because I'm of the firm opinion that disaster can strike at any time. If I'm going to be spending my hard earned money to ride the track, I'm riding it because I'm ensured that I'll be taken care of should the worst happen. PMP won't get a cent of my money until they are able to offer that.
I always anticipate a crash. But I crash alot it seems. There is a fine line between riding fast and riding too fast.


I'm sure you do, but make no mistake, you are paying $150 for the assurance of safety. That assurance is provided to you at the agreed upon price by the owners of the facility. Assurances aside, the only guarantee of a track day is that you won't get a ticket. I can guarantee I don't get a ticket on the street too, it's called, "Don't Speed". But I digress, in my opinion $150 is a lot of money. Is it cheaper than HPR? That depends on what you are willing to sacrifice. To me, my safety is of tantamount concern. I don't wear a helmet and full gear with armor because it looks cool. I don't ride crazy on the street for the same reason. At a track, however, I'm spending money to ride faster than I could legally do on the street. Why? Because riding fast is fun! However, I'm simply unwilling to sacrifice an aspect of my safety that weighs heavily on my mind: the ability for EMS to get to me promptly should I crash and get hurt. Others don't see it as an issue, and hey, it's their life to lose. I can't say I understand it, but it's their choice to make. I, however, won't be pressured to make compromises in that regard.

No, I haven't, for obvious reasons. But why does it matter if I have or have not? As a potential customer I have the right to evaluate whether it makes sound financial sense to spend $150 at a facility intended to provide a safe environment and to offer my criticisms regarding any aspect I find to be lacking, or questionable. It's my money and my safety at stake.

I could just as easily ask: Have you ever crashed a motorcycle? Did you nearly die? Did you spend several weeks in a hospital? If your answer is, "no" then I could argue that you simply don't understand how valuable it is to have rapid first response. It will factor into any decision that involves an increased risk to safety, which, make no mistake, increases exponentially as speeds get higher. Since I'll be riding faster than I would on the street, I want EMS response to be faster as well.

I spent 5 weeks in the Pediatric Trauma Center when I was 10 from a life threatening head injury sustained while riding a dirt bike, with no helmet. I also cut my thumb tip off in my race bike chain. Hence my importance on first response.

[Radek]

[

Snazzy texts me and she wants to buy 200 fat tire from me and put it on 600.I told her that its not smart .Then she text me she will buy it for friend .Then next day I text her back and she replied : what tire ???
So don't really take her seriously....

[Snazzy]

[

Snazzy texts me and she wants to buy 200 fat tire from me and put it on 600.I told her that its not smart .Then she text me she will buy it for friend .Then next day I text her back and she replied : what tire ???
So don't really take her seriously....

Exactly, texted me. Then you messaged me on here and I had no idea who you were. I still have no idea if I'm talking to the same person who was selling a rear tire with his zx10.
I said I might have a friend interested, they weren't and neither was I cause I have a 600. I messaged someone else with tires I wanted and bought them at the school, that okay with you?

[Gramps]

i think it was an Erico day i did at hpr with no corner workers or bus. dont crash ya sallys!


(i kid, i kid)

Really Those track days are pretty expensive (300 range) for no services. You got to be joking about this.

[Drano]

I spent 5 weeks in the Pediatric Trauma Center when I was 10 from a life threatening head injury sustained while riding a dirt bike, with no helmet. I also cut my thumb tip off in my race bike chain. Hence my importance on first response.

I had a low-speed crash (35-40 mph) in 2011 on the street. I didn't hit a guard rail, go off a cliff, or make contact with oncoming traffic. All I hit was the pavement, and I hit hard. I was wearing my helmet, jacket, gauntlet gloves, with jeans and an old pair of combat boots. Even with the amount of gear I was wearing, I suffered a concussion, collapsed lung, pulmonary edema in my other lung, bruised ribs, broken finger, bruised hip, and a grade 5 liver laceration. From hitting the ground, I was in and out of consciousness, suffocating, drowning, and bleeding to death internally as I lay there. I got lucky, the first person to get to me was an off-duty ER nurse at Memorial Hospital in the Springs. She took care of me until EMS arrived. People don't know what a blessing it is to have somebody, right then and there, who knows what to do if things get worse. I do.

[Okrapp]

This is a huge deal with me. IMO Judy is overwhelmed on her trackdays and doesn't really make the time to sit everyone down and go over the proper instructions. However, at the first RMRS event we did have a riders meeting that went over flags, track on/off, pit, and safety procedures, but only like 6 people showed up and it was raining. I didn't go the last event because im broke, trying to race a full MRA season.

That day did suck for both weather and turnout. But the rider meetings are continuing to happen as of the next round last weekend. Ray, the person taking some of the weight off Judy by doing these rider meetings/ tech inspections/ writing rule books and some of the other coordinating on the bike side, is experienced in other bike race series from elsewhere and helping to make this an emulation of more professional things. I think you were the one that added a few great other points to that meeting. Thanks for making the thread and, yeah the budget looks like a case of ramen noodles too often if you like the track.



With the exception of that day when so few showed up, the same Western Ambulance company mentioned by others was there, rider meetings keep happening, corner workers (fewer than many here are used to) are present, and if anyone is out of objections please come run a round or two if you're available. These things don't extend to track days yet but it's a start.

Not here to argue against anyone who won't come without corner workers or EMS. Not here to say PMP will be as nice as HPR anytime soon if ever. Just saying some of these things are there for RMRS days because they are making an effort and hoping it will draw additional riders.

[Slo]

I will be out there, but will be later than I wanted. I went over my budget for a couple of different projects recently so there are a couple more items I need before heading that way.

[One-ops]

If it's still around I'll come run it next year.
I will be there running a few trackdays this year though.

[Radek]

I never seen ambulance on any dirt track standing by but we all sign the death wish deal.

[cosp600rr]

Just out of curiosity what other adrenaline type hobbies do you guys have that have a problem with the ambulance not being on site all the time?

Sking/snowboarding
Mountain Climbing
Dirtbiking - mountains or track
Mountain biking
????

Do you view this activities more or less dangerous than a track day. I would think that they all have there dangers and one could get seriously hurt doing any one of them. I personally would much rather get hurt at the track in pueblo than way out in the woods dirtbiking, sking or mountain biking. Yet people continue to do those activities. I think just some quick instruction when you show up about how to safely enter and exit the track and what to do if you run off would be good and then manage your self for the rest. Its a trackday not a race.

I see way more people getting hurt riding dirtbikes than I ever have at trackdays. PMP is my favorite track probably because it was my first and its kind of my home track. Probably have done near 100 or more days there between trackdays and racing.

[cosp600rr]

That being said, if you dont want the track to go away then we need to support it. It takes money for it to get better and make improvements and the only way that is going to happen is if people use it and show interest in it getting better. With the type of effort put into getting HPR built I believe pmp could be much better but it takes a lot of effort and someone running it with the vision and drive to make it happen.

[asp_125]

So here's a question for the old timers. Was there a safety crew at Second Creek during the thursday night track days? I can't recall seeing an ambulance and I definitely did not see any cornerworkers.

[Bueller]

So here's a question for the old timers. Was there a safety crew at Second Creek during the thursday night track days? I can't recall seeing an ambulance and I definitely did not see any cornerworkers.

:lol:

We would have to exit the track and go tell Bob someone had crashed if it wasn't seen from the pits.

[Gramps]

That is funny. It was very low budget but fun and cheap.

[madvlad]

Never ran at 2nd creek but heard all the stories :lol:

[Jmetz]

Personally I don't even catch the bus unless there is an ambulance crew waiting.

[One-ops]

Personally I don't even catch the bus unless there is an ambulance crew waiting.
What that sounds so reckless and unsafe.. How did you ever get to the bus stop without one?

[Drano]

Personally I don't even catch the bus unless there is an ambulance crew waiting.


What that sounds so reckless and unsafe.. How did you ever get to the bus stop without one?

Wow! So, let me get this straight, you guys come onto a thread meant to discuss the future of PMP, and offer absolutely nothing of value to the conversation other than to ridicule a few members who have offered their valid concerns regarding it? Well then, mission accomplished I suppose. :confused:

Lets get back on topic, shall we? The grand consensus is that if PMP is to be saved, it will need people who are willing to spend the money to go ride it. The major concern for riders on the fence is that PMP is unsafe due to the lack of on-site EMS and corner workers at track days. So far, and in my opinion, one of the best suggestions has been from Aaron and Snazzy to contact Judy and figure out how many riders would be needed to justify the expense of increased safety measures. Knowing how many riders it would take for Judy to promise enhanced safety at PMP would go a long way to assuaging concerns and getting people off the fence and onto the track, that is, if that number can be achieved. However, PMP will continue to have a difficult time being saved if those concerns aren't addressed because it is losing a market segment of potential customers.

Look at it this way, those who are unwilling to ride PMP because of safety concerns are obviously people that PMP could desperately use. They're not going to compromise and gamble on their safety. And since those people have already expressed their commitment to ride elsewhere until such services are offered, they won't be heartbroken if the track is lost. As such, being dismissive and belligerent towards them is a good way to ensure they never give it a chance. So, keep an open mind, listen to what's being said, and offer constructive criticism rather than useless drivel.


Just out of curiosity what other adrenaline type hobbies do you guys have that have a problem with the ambulance not being on site all the time?

Sking/snowboarding
Mountain Climbing
Dirtbiking - mountains or track
Mountain biking
????

Do you view this activities more or less dangerous than a track day. I would think that they all have there dangers and one could get seriously hurt doing any one of them. I personally would much rather get hurt at the track in pueblo than way out in the woods dirtbiking, sking or mountain biking. Yet people continue to do those activities. I think just some quick instruction when you show up about how to safely enter and exit the track and what to do if you run off would be good and then manage your self for the rest. Its a trackday not a race.

I see way more people getting hurt riding dirtbikes than I ever have at trackdays. PMP is my favorite track probably because it was my first and its kind of my home track. Probably have done near 100 or more days there between trackdays and racing.

After this I'll stop chiming in because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse already, but this is about money, nothing more. If you are talking about back country skiing and biking, trail riding, or canyon carving, those cost nothing to do. They are not organized, nor monitored by an overseeing body on privately owned and maintained property. You are free to do what you want out there and you have to own the consequences.

When you pay to play at a private facility, you are bargaining with the proprietor for specific conditions, and you should get what you pay for. At a ski resort, when you buy a lift ticket you are paying for staff, such as Ski Patrol, avalanche control, nicely groomed and obstacle-free runs, and that any potential obstacles will be clearly marked. These are assurances of safety. Obviously none of them are 100% preventative. You could still hit a mogul incorrectly and bust your knee. For PMP, people are saying its a nice track, and I believe them. They are likely getting exactly what they pay for. For others, the price simply isn't enough to entice them to ride there. They want more. I don't think they, myself included, said they were unwilling to pay more if it meant getting more. I'd certainly be happy to pay more if it meant my personal concerns were satisfied.

Look, I think all of us are on the same page that practically everything you do has risks, that's not the concern here. What is a concern is that when you ride a track you are paying money in exchange for something: and that is, as I have said earlier, an assurance of safety. For some, that assurance is a relatively clear track with a surface in good repair. For others, they want and expect more: on-site EMS and more corner workers. I haven't read where anybody has stated that they wouldn't be willing to pay more if it meant those things were present.

You're right that it's not a race, but riders can be out there for any number of reasons. They could be working on lines, or they could be working on race setup. Are most of them out there to putt around? Probably not. Regardless, riding on the track is a dangerous activity because the machinery, the speed, and the rider's exposure to the surrounding environment is inherently dangerous. You could come off a slow corner, get aggressive on the throttle too early, suffer a massive high side, and get seriously hurt, or you could walk away without a scratch. The concern is not about eliminating those dangers, it's about mitigating the consequences when mistakes are made. In my earlier post I attempted to illustrate that even a relatively low speed crash can be potentially fatal. I'll grant that situations like that are extremely rare, but if you're serious about your safety, you measure risk from a worst-case scenario, not ideals.

To reiterate: if PMP wants more customers, they know what they need to do to get them. Until they start offering on-site EMS and a reasonable amount of corner workers, they're going to lose that market segment. Until then, those riders will continue spending more money and, in some cases, make a longer drive to ride HPR, and most won't be likely to lose a single night's sleep if PMP closes. I guess what it comes down to is that if you're serious about making sure PMP survives, you give it the best chance possible by expanding its market to previously unreachable customers. Not by dismissing them out-of-hand.

[Jmetz]

Wow! So, let me get this straight, you guys come onto a thread meant to discuss the future of PMP, and offer absolutely nothing of value to the conversation other than to ridicule a few members who have offered their valid concerns regarding it? Well then, mission accomplished I suppose. :confused:

Lighten up Francis. More like driving home the fact we have become pussified and it's sad. People have gotten to the point that they can't take a piss without a safety net.

[tecknojoe]

Yea, all those racers and motorcycle riders that wear leathers and helmets, bunch of pussies who can't ride without a safety net

[Jmetz]

:lol: Not quite where I was going.

[tecknojoe]

I saw an opportunity and I took it

This thread is only good for comedic value at this point anyway

[#1Townie]

Lighten up Francis. More like driving home the fact we have become pussified and it's sad. People have gotten to the point that they can't take a piss without a safety net.:cheers:

[aspenbum]

Please lets not trash my thread anymore than it already has.

The EMS situation is not the only reason why people dislike PMP. I was hoping to get more of a outline from people on what they dislike and would like to see changed with the track. Not pick one topic and run 4 pages on it. Yes safety is most peoples #1 priority and we all know that it will simply take an increase in funds from the track day guys to justify the means to have that. BUT until the popularity and the knowledge of the on site EMS spreads, what can we do to help make this a more user friendly place to go and like Drano said pay to play at a private facility. I don't mind paying more money for a trackday, obviously neither does the rest of the majority of the track riders becasue we are already spending $160 (or more if you need power) for a day out at HPR but we get 1. Ambulance 2. clean pits 3. Some trained corner crew 4. The Colorado Grill + more everytime.

I received an email blast from Judy the other day that said it costs her $100/hr to rent the ambulance. On a normal track day that means $900-$1000 just for the bus. To me that means she would need about 10 people to sign up for full price to be able to afford that and turn a small profit. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are more than 10 people on here that would go to ride at PMP given the current situations. So why don't people go? When I first started doing track days, the only thing that I cared about was seat time. I didn't care about corner crew, or ambulance, or food, or power or anything else for that matter really. All I wanted was a clear track and good tires. Now that I've been riding track for 3 years my needs have changed. I can go alot faster now than when I first started, I've been injured in a on track accident that required immediate medical attention, and I use the track to practice my racing not to practice my riding. I also sold my generator, my van with canopy, my enclosed trailer, and most of my time spent at the track these days is in the pits working on my bike instead of riding it so the need for a comfortable pit area is a higher priority for me now than in the past.

Have I gone to PMP and rode with out corner crew and an ambulance, of course and I would drive over 5 hours each way to do it and thought it was worth every minute and dime spent. But that was 3 years ago and things are a little different now. So use that as a perspective because what may not be important to you now might be the most important thing for you after you get to use the track for 3 years. But if there is no track to use, then everyone looses.

[Matrix]

When I lived in Broomfield, the issue I had with PMP as an occasional track day location was the distance. I was happy to drive it, but at the time there was not a 10-2 half day offer. You either paid for a full day or morning/afternoon session. Neither of which was ideal.

I had five guys riding with me last year and I called Judy to ask for a 10-2 window and she obliged because it allowed six of us to come down. I thought it was cool of her to do that for us. Just a suggestion, but it might be cool if that was an option (with maybe a $10 premium).

I plan to ride PMP a couple of times this year. In fact, now that I am in the for corner areas I have met a half a dozen guys that want to give the track a shot. I will see what I can do to organize a day and if needed, have the Fun Center kick in a little to make it a success.

[BadR6Man]

Save the track by going there on june 7th. 2 for 1 day. I will be there for sure with ninja2.

I am always more than welcome with teaching and helping others at the track. I assume nick lesatch will be there also for the sunset class also.

For the ones concerned about an ambulance,
I can say the riders meeting right here right now.

Dont break rule number one. Problem solved.

[GNGSXR]

Why did the MRA cut PMP to only 1 round each season? I never understood this. If there is an old MRA thread discussing this on their forum please direct me to it.




I do about 3-12 track days a year at PMP and have been for the past 6 years. I accept the lack of EMS issue as a big risk but I still go to the track. They use to allow cars/bikes on it at the same time. That was "fun" and I am very lucky to still be here today.

If an EMS was on site I would probably cut 2-3 seconds off my average track day lap time on the first lap out. I ride PMP with a bit of a safety margin since there is usually no medical service on site but I still feel the track time is worth it for me.
We take a risk everyday just getting out of bed. I am more afraid of riding my bike in the city or in the mountains than I am at the track. I am not trying to defend the lack of EMS at the track because I definitely would like to have them available every time I go. I'd be willing to pay more for it as well but I will still go to the track without them being present. What else in your life would you not do because you are too scared of not having a safety net? That sounds like a boring way to live but it is your money.

Corner workers at every corner would be nice for the extra safety but I don't feel it is necessary. I'd rather use that money for an EMS since I do not think all of PMP's issues can be fixed immediately. PMP is laid out in a way that as long turn 8, the tower/turn 10, and maybe someone at turn 4 or turn 1 all have a competent worker with their head on a quick swivel then the entire field of view is covered.

I have only been to HPR a few times and I don't go regularly because I live in Colorado Springs. I can get to PMP within 40 minutes on a good day, no traffic incidents on I-25, and the moon and stars perfectly aligned. I understand why the Denver people don't visit PMP as often as HPR. I know driving distance is a lame excuse but that is my main reason for choosing PMP over HPR.

I have heard from several riders recently who go to both tracks that PMP is a lot smoother than HPR. Turn 8 at PMP is starting to get bumpier. Turn 10 always clenches my butthole but aim for the middle and you are fine. If the drag strip rubber gets heat into it then taking a wide line on turn 10 is do able but I will leave that to braver riders.

Half the time I go to PMP I feel like I have the track to myself. I can do 15 laps without any traffic which is great for me but bad for PMP.
Is the lack of turn out for PMP due to Judy, lack of advertising, lack of interests from riders due to safety concerns? I don't really know.

PMP also has a 2 for 1 day every month during the summer and they even did a $60 lapping day a month or so ago. $60 for a full day of lapping!?!?! They had an EMS present during the $60 day but was only available from 11am-2pm or 3 pm. It was a decent turn out but I expected the track to be packed for $60.


Judy really does care about keeping that track open and doing everything she possibly can for the people that attend the track. She is always open to opinions or any kind of help with the track so please voice your concerns or ideas directly to her.
I'd hate to see another race track close down.



I'll be at the track on June 7th as well.

[madvlad]

I'm sure Jim will chime in as of why PMP and PPIR are 1 round only now

[Gramps]

Cars and bikes on the track at the same time? /that makes things tricky/

The last time I went to a combined cars/bikes track day I lowsided in the dirt a corvette had thrown on the track. My point is this may make no corner workers even more of an issue. Cars and bikes do have different needs.

I'm trying to plan a day to see if I can help support the track but from what I can see the weekend days are all combined Cars/bikes open lapping. That makes it pretty hard for a bike guy to commit.

[UglyDogRacing]

There are a combination of reasons the MRA currently schedules only 1 round per season at Pueblo.

It is the most poorly attended round each season for the MRA. We generally lose money when we hold a round there. We also can not race in the rain there due to surface in turn 10. Those reasons, along with the substantial track rental increase in the past 4 years make it nonviable for us to hold more than one round per season.

Track side vendors do not want to (some will not) attend events at Pueblo due to the City of Pueblo's vendor agreement and hundreds of dollars in fees. We currently are unable to find a vendor to run concessions at our round scheduled next month.

High Plains Raceway is the MRA's home track and the majority of our rounds will be scheduled there. The MRA has a seat on the CAMA (Colorado Amateur Motorsports Association) Board of Directors and contributed both a substantial amount of seed money for it's construction from it's own treasury, and also it's share of the funds rebated from Second Creek Raceway and reinvested in CAMA. Plus, a large number of our members personally donated during the fundraising efforts in 2008. We are essentially 20% owners of the track.

As for why only one round is scheduled at PPIR, this is due to the management change at that facility and an apparent miscommunication with the previous manager regarding our scheduled dates for this season. Unfortunately, our weekend in June was scheduled to another entity.

[Snazzy]

It is the most poorly attended round each season for the MRA. We generally lose money when we hold a round there.

I have heard so many times from racers that it's "too far"

Very sad.

[madvlad]

If they don't feel like driving that far then what are you gonna do, like I said, whoever feels like showing up will and who doesn't well just doesn't lol

[dirkterrell]

I have heard so many times from racers that it's "too far"

Very sad.

And to think we used to go to Hastings, NE...

[Spooph]

If they don't feel like driving that far then what are you gonna do, like I said, whoever feels like showing up will and who doesn't well just doesn't lol

advertise a low enough track day fee, start going for volume and they just might... If they save more on the track day fee than the gas they'd spend to get there, and people know about, no reason it shouldn't be successful, no?

[Redline]

I would make the trip out there. Distance is better than having to go out of state, the more tracks that are in Colorado the better, period.

Does anyone know EMS personnel? Could we arrange our own EMS crew that would consider donating their time? Or if Judy increased the price slightly to afford the EMS?

[madvlad]

Most have said it, even at the $60 for a full day and the turnout was not great. Not sure what the issue is for most people other than distance.

[Gramps]

Most have said it, even at the $60 for a full day and the turnout was not great. Not sure what the issue is for most people other than distance.

It's about commitment.

I know it's a big commitment for Judy but you can't try something one time and then say it was a failure from the one experience. I would guess if PMP commits to bike only days and a decent pricing structure then riders would commit to PMP.

[Slo]

Just my $0.02

For PMP, there are some deterrents, some minor, and some more major influences.....

Minor:
-Cost.... is a hundred bucks or so really that much to be on a track? Some see it as a bargain, others not so much, depends individual backgrounds and how they see a track being beneficial or a risk vs canyons. I think people that use this excuse is just looking for a way out.

-Distance, if your in Boulder, Longmont or further north, even the Denver area, obviously HPR is much less of a drive and obviously significantly less traffic not having to go through the Springs.

- Ambulance, this is a grey area, for me, a non issue as far as whether I go or not, for others, might be different.

-Shade at PMP, what is that??? Canopy needed, along with possible umbrella./sunblock etc for spectators

-Restrooms much friendlier haha at HPR and PPIR

Major:
-Most MRA members will goto HPR for convenience, and a major part of their season is raced there so more seat time.....more points/standings/better results and the track is awesome with different configs, as said before, HPR is the home track for the MRA among others.

-HPR and PPIR have power, garages, car ports, etc.


One last thing..... For newbies, there is always going to be those that talk about wanting to go, but then just don't while a few do.

I could go on and on about my opinions, others may agree with some, some may disagree with all, I really don't care. I like PMP, it's the first full size track I took a car and bike to, will always hold a special place with memories for me.

Getting 5 people from this forum to go on a specific day is not going to save PMP, much more community involvement is needed. As much as there are track discussions on this forum, and all the talk about wanting...or going, and the turnout is still weak, I am also guilty of this for my own reasons which will hopefully change very soon. But I plan on bring others little by little into the sport/industry as well.

[madvlad]

Just my $0.02

For PMP, there are some deterrents, some minor, and some more major influences.....

Minor:
-Cost.... is a hundred bucks or so really that much to be on a track? Some see it as a bargain, others not so much, depends individual backgrounds and how they see a track being beneficial or a risk vs canyons. I think people that use this excuse is just looking for a way out.

-Distance, if your in Boulder, Longmont or further north, even the Denver area, obviously HPR is much less of a drive and obviously significantly less traffic not having to go through the Springs.

- Ambulance, this is a grey area, for me, a non issue as far as whether I go or not, for others, might be different.

-Shade at PMP, what is that??? Canopy needed, along with possible umbrella./sunblock etc for spectators

-Restrooms much friendlier haha at HPR and PPIR

Major:
-Most MRA members will goto HPR for convenience, and a major part of their season is raced there so more seat time.....more points/standings/better results and the track is awesome with different configs, as said before, HPR is the home track for the MRA among others.

-HPR and PPIR have power, garages, car ports, etc.


One last thing..... For newbies, there is always going to be those that talk about wanting to go, but then just don't while a few do.

I could go on and on about my opinions, others may agree with some, some may disagree with all, I really don't care. I like PMP, it's the first full size track I took a car and bike to, will always hold a special place with memories for me.

Getting 5 people from this forum to go on a specific day is not going to save PMP, much more community involvement is needed. As much as there are track discussions on this forum, and all the talk about wanting...or going, and the turnout is still weak, I am also guilty of this for my own reasons which will hopefully change very soon. But I plan on bring others little by little into the sport/industry as well.

/thread

[Snazzy]

PMP has power available, they just do not have carports.


And I did the math out of curiosity, from Longmont, CO to HPR and Longmont, CO to Pueblo, CO, at a rate of 19mpg, 2.85 for gas, the difference in price one way is about $9. Just for all the people who pull the "it's way more expensive to drive out to Pueblo"

Also Pueblo is 28 mins and 25 miles from PPIR

[Slo]

PMP has power available


Ohhh nice, one thing I won't have to worry about then!!

[Okrapp]

A bit of media may help to attract a few riders. http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/05/26/ienatsch-tuesday-growing-our-sport-of-motorcycle-riding-at-the-sunset-rider-clinic/

Still won't convince many to try. But any help is favorable.

[Aaron]

PMP also has as much free shade as HPR, just no carports available for rent. But they have the free picnic area just like HPR does.

[rockerphotographer]

Sunset rider clinic should be part of a track day/lapping day or even be available as part of the RMRS. Ridesmart in TX goes over the same stuff with the novice group and it's mandatory. They offer training up to race group. Instructors are on track as well. Key word INSTRUCTORS.

I like to compare PMP to Hallett raceway in OK. If you're complaining about PMP, go ride Hallett for a day.... The funny thing is, Hallett fills up every track day and they have to turn people away. $120 a day I think is what they charge. Hallett pulls in the CMRA crowd and has the Dallas area population to pull from too, so they have a lot more people to try for. Keep in mind, this track is literally out in the middle of nowhere. Most have to drive several hours to get there. One thing they do have that stands out is their own instructors. Key word, INSTRUCTORS.

Now for the MRA. I know they have the superstreet class and force the members to help with the riders. Nice attempt, but not working. Superstreet is mainly just a group of racers that didn't get the license in time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is new riders get discouraged and there's nobody there to turn them in a different direction. So they keep going the same way... away from the track. They need someone there to help them, someone dedicated to instruction. Sometimes just another set of eyes to follow them a couple of laps is all they need. These new riders are the future of the sport and we're brushing them off.

Instructors don't have to be racers either. Just because you're a racer doesn't mean your an instructor, and vice versa. I guess if you can't do, teach! haha

When I first moved here (pueblo) I was so excited there was a decent track in town. Coming from AR, I had to drive 5+ hrs no matter what track I went to. I would hate to see it go away.

[GNGSXR]

How was the MRA turn out at Pueblo for round 3? It seemed to be really good.
Chatting with some of the racers and the general consensus was that they loved the track. Even saying that pueblo is smoother than HPR.

Any chance of the MRA doing more rounds here andnot just at HPR?

[hcr25]

Pueblo should be smoother then HPR, it was replaced in late 2011 or early 2012 I think. HPR's surface is now 6.5 years old. Also HPR gets used on average 5 days a week during the summer.

[tecknojoe]

HPR is definitely starting to feel a bit bumpy these days. Especially that new strip as you tip over to the right going down the hill in turn 9. The bike was moving underneath me a ton. Still fun

[Aaron]

HPR is definitely starting to feel a bit bumpy these days. Especially that new strip as you tip over to the right going down the hill in turn 9. The bike was moving underneath me a ton. Still fun
Turn 2 at HPR, the long right before the kink to the back stretch, has a bump midway through the turn that unsettles me every time. Would be an awesome turn if not for that plumbing line that runs underneath or whatever it is.