2010 R6 ignition/fuel issue?

[Ezzzzy1]

Im having issues with the R6 all the sudden and im wondering if anyone on here has seen this problem before.

Bike was a champ on Saturday but when I went to ride out for the CSC ride on Sunday things got weird. Basically if felt like the bike was going to stall every time that I started from a stop, then it felt like it was misfiring until about 6500 RPMs and then it would run perfectly.

It has done this consistently since. My guess would be spark plug is fowling for some reason.

Bike has 12k miles on it.

Anyone experienced this before? Know what it is?

Thanks all!

[Bueller]

Possibly water in the fuel. Did you just fill it before its started?

[WolFeYeZ]

Possibly water in the fuel. Did you just fill it before its started?

+1 to this. Did you fill up somewhere random on the ride?

Also, it could be good to figure out if its just one cylinder that is having a problem. IR temp reading from the headers right after you turn it on should show if one cylinder is not firing due to plugs, coils, injector, etc. Might narrow down the issue if its not just bad gas.

[Kim-n-Dean]

First off, what kind of bike and what year is it? Did you check your headlight fluid? Or maybe you need to rotate the air in your tires.

Sorry, I was trying to give a "CSC" answer.

Kim's R6 did the exact same thing. It was the coils, which were recalled by Yamaha. Not sure how many years deep the bad coils go, but sounds exactly like what Kim was experiencing. Pull the coils and look for arcing marks on the coils and head.

[WolFeYeZ]

First off, what kind of bike and what year is it? Did you check your headlight fluid? Or maybe you need to rotate the air in your tires.

Sorry, I was trying to give a "CSC" answer.

Kim's R6 did the exact same thing. It was the coils, which were recalled by Yamaha. Not sure how many years deep the bad coils go, but sounds exactly like what Kim was experiencing. Pull the coils and look for arcing marks on the coils and head.

Coils are the problem mostly for 2nd gen 03-05 r6. Had the same on my 05. Im 99% sure they fixed this for 06+

[Kim-n-Dean]

Coils are the problem mostly for 2nd gen 03-05 r6. Had the same on my 05. Im 99% sure they fixed this for 06+It's gotta be the headlight fluid, then!

[Ezzzzy1]

I checked the blinker fluid but didnt even think about taking a look at the headlight fluid while I was in there.... Dammit! :lol:

I suppose it could be bad gas, I did fill up Saturday afternoon. How does the logic work on that? I can wrap my mind around the sputtering due to water but why then does it go away at 6500?

I like the heat check on the header, I will give that a shot.

When I googled this, there are a few people with the same exact issue but no one really has a definite answer to the problem.

[Bueller]

At higher rpm misses become less noticeable, the momentum carries it through.
I had this happen on a new bike. Filled up after work, by the time I go home it was running as you described.
Drained gas, put new in, fixed. Never have bought gas at that station since.

[FZRguy]

I've fueled up with bad gas too, with similar symptoms.

[Nolan]

If it gets narrowed to bad fuel.... Where did you get it from?

[Ezzzzy1]

Filled the bike up today and crossed my fingers that it was the fuel. It doesnt look like thats the case as the problem is still happening.

I think I am going to replace the plugs and test the coils, im guessing thats whats going on.

I HATE CHANGING PLUGS!!!

[madvlad]

Plugs are due around 8k miles so if you haven't done that yet that could be the culprit.... told you to stop filing up with NOS from the gas station son :lol:

[mdub]

Diamond Shamrock's are notorious for below par fuel...

[Ezzzzy1]

I am pretty picky about my fuel and where I get it. I was hoping it was the gas because I did fill up at a different place on Saturday.

Its probably the plugs. I ordered everything and will knock it out on Saturday. If the bike was running well I would join you on your ride Damir but it wont be dont till mid day on Saturday :(

[WolFeYeZ]

Water is heavier than gas, so filling up again might not necessarily take care of it...

[Ezzzzy1]

Water is heavier than gas, so filling up again might not necessarily take care of it...

Im going to end up draining it all anyway at this point. Plugs are overdue and I have blockoff plates that need to go on. I will probably sink the throttle bodies and test the coils while im in there.

[Ezzzzy1]

Replaced the plugs, check the coils and installed blockoff plates.

Bike is back to running like a champ! Thanks killing some time with me Damir :headbang:

[madvlad]

All good bro, glad I could help and she's as good as new :up: let the rides begin! :lol:

[Ezzzzy1]

Lets try this again :nuke:

It seems that the problem did not resolve itself....

Originally when we took temperatures on the header there was a 50 degree difference on 1 and 4 (left to right). What else would cause this? The new plugs helped but not that ive put 100 miles on the bike its definitely back to running like crap.

[madvlad]

Seriously? That's weird, can't be coils cause they tested good so my next guess will be injectors

[Ezzzzy1]

Im being told that it could be a back pressure/fuel tuning issue?

I might be a little outside of the normal specs with full (catless) exhaust but im surprised that the R6 wouldnt be loving every second of that. One of the options given to me to possibly solve the back pressure issue is to put an insert in the muffler. Has anyone else taken this approach? I seriously cant imagine doing this and liking it :dunno:

[madvlad]

Maybe try doing a dyno tune see if that helps to adjust... I just don't see how that's a problem now given that if it was a back pressure issue it would've done it from the moment the exhaust was installed

[Kim-n-Dean]

Im being told that it could be a back pressure/fuel tuning issue?

I might be a little outside of the normal specs with full (catless) exhaust but im surprised that the R6 wouldnt be loving every second of that. One of the options given to me to possibly solve the back pressure issue is to put an insert in the muffler. Has anyone else taken this approach? I seriously cant imagine doing this and liking it :dunno:Kim's bike doesn't have a cat anymore, either. No issues at all, except for the recall on the coils. Way different year, though. Are you sure the coils aren't arcing? Her coils tested fine, but it's the case that cracks and when they're installed, they arc.

[Ezzzzy1]

Damir and I pulled the coils and I physically checked them all. They looked good to go. I didnt think of it like that Dean.

Im just wondering if a Power Commander or ECU flash will fix the problem. Im sure someone would have spoken up by now but has anyone had this problem with their R6R and fixed it with tuning?

Nuts told me from the get-go that I needed a tune to fix this. Im guessing you are right :oops:

[madvlad]

Crazy part is that the coils looked good, cleaned them out, fresh plugs and the bike purred and then what, not even a day and back to it. Gotta be a tuning issue then

[Kim-n-Dean]

Damir and I pulled the coils and I physically checked them all. They looked good to go. I didnt think of it like that Dean.

Im just wondering if a Power Commander or ECU flash will fix the problem. Im sure someone would have spoken up by now but has anyone had this problem with their R6R and fixed it with tuning?

Nuts told me from the get-go that I needed a tune to fix this. Im guessing you are right :oops:Kim's bike would run perfectly for quite a while, then it would run like shit and sometimes she had problems getting it out of a parking space. It would roll two feet and die. Her coils were obviously arcing. Black marks everywhere. You couldn't miss it. If yours look good, they probably are. However, I guess a tiny crack is all it takes to ground out and maybe you can't see the signs of it if it's small enough. I hate shit like this!! My R1 is acting up, too. Every time I hit a bump, the headlights blink. Now, they don't come on at all. Everything checks out fine, but I have to admit that I haven't looked real close at it. Probably pull the wire harness this weekend. Fortunately, I have a complete spare electrical system for it. Harness, coils, ECU, relays, etc...

Maybe we should just chuck 'em and get new R1Ms!!

[Ezzzzy1]

Totally in Deano.... We could trade both of our bikes in and still owe $12k on one :lol: We could share it

I ordered the exhaust insert, not thrilled about it but if it helps until I figure out what tuner im going to go with I guess I will roll with it.

Lame. Who makes their exhaust quieter :roll:

[Kim-n-Dean]

Totally in Deano.... We could trade both of our bikes in and still owe $12k on one :lol: That ain't no lie!!


I ordered the exhaust insert, not thrilled about it but if it helps until I figure out what tuner im going to go with I guess I will roll with it.

Lame. Who makes their exhaust quieter :roll:Is that exhaust insert made specifically for removing the cat on an R6? Kim's bike appears to run fine, but I wonder if she'd get a power boost by getting the back pressure back to stock specs. Who makes it?

[Ezzzzy1]

Is that exhaust insert made specifically for removing the cat on an R6? Kim's bike appears to run fine, but I wonder if she'd get a power boost by getting the back pressure back to stock specs. Who makes it?

Its made specifically for the exhaust that I have but I bet other companies have them. Really its a DB controller so all exhaust companies "should" have them to make their "non street legal" cans legal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391139419321?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Kim-n-Dean]

Its made specifically for the exhaust that I have but I bet other companies have them. Really its a DB controller so all exhaust companies "should" have them to make their "non street legal" cans legal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391139419321?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Well shit! I can't find a reliable answer, but it looks like Kim's bike did not come with a catalytic converter. So, why was I comparing how her 2003 bike runs with a 2010 without a cat? Well, because a very well known bike mechanic (that may or may not be on this site) told me Kim's bike came with a cat, and I'm safe to run race gas in it because the cat was removed when I put her Yosh on. Kind of like how a dealer told me that my truck... ah, nevermind.

So, does anyone know if a 2003 R6 came with a factory catalytic converter?

[Ezzzzy1]

Well shit! I can't find a reliable answer, but it looks like Kim's bike did not come with a catalytic converter. So, why was I comparing how her 2003 bike runs with a 2010 without a cat? Well, because a very well known bike mechanic (that may or may not be on this site) told me Kim's bike came with a cat, and I'm safe to run race gas in it because the cat was removed when I put her Yosh on. Kind of like how a dealer told me that my truck... ah, nevermind.

So, does anyone know if a 2003 R6 came with a factory catalytic converter?


My answer wound be no. No cat and no O2 sensors.

There is however a baffle towards the end of the headers that looks like a catalytic converter. Different year bike but I left mine in (I didnt want to loose too much back pressure :lol:).

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Ezzzzy1/stock_zps3gsyf6o8.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Ezzzzy1/media/stock_zps3gsyf6o8.jpg.html)

[WolFeYeZ]

When I had problems with coils, I swapped out the plugs thinking it was them. Bike ran great for a little then back to shit. Also, my coils did not show any abnormal blacening or anything too. Still ended up being the problem.

[Ezzzzy1]

When I had problems with coils, I swapped out the plugs thinking it was them. Bike ran great for a little then back to shit. Also, my coils did not show any abnormal blacening or anything too. Still ended up being the problem.

Was this on your 05?

[rybo]

Ezzy,

Some things to check / test.

1: battery voltage / charging system. On these bikes low volts can lead to misses. It might be that it's making adequate volts above 6500 revs and that helps it clear up.

2: ground connection loose battery terminals

3: move the coil from the low temp cylinder to another cylinder. If the temp on the new cylinder drops, then it's that coil.

4: bad fuel theory- if it gummed up your throttle bodies / injectors it might be causing the problem. Run a tank of fuel with a cleaner in it. I've had good luck with seafoam or amsoil quickshot

[rybo]

So, does anyone know if a 2003 R6 came with a factory catalytic converter?

The 03 R6 for sure came without a catalytic converter.

[Ezzzzy1]

Ezzy,

Some things to check / test.

1: battery voltage / charging system. On these bikes low volts can lead to misses. It might be that it's making adequate volts above 6500 revs and that helps it clear up.

2: ground connection loose battery terminals

3: move the coil from the low temp cylinder to another cylinder. If the temp on the new cylinder drops, then it's that coil.

4: bad fuel theory- if it gummed up your throttle bodies / injectors it might be causing the problem. Run a tank of fuel with a cleaner in it. I've had good luck with seafoam or amsoil quickshot


All good things to check. I will cross them off my list.

Thanks man :rock:

[Ezzzzy1]

Tested the battery and it checked out good.

Put the exhaust insert in and it didnt help.

I will be sending the ECU off on Monday to have it flashed with a list of mods to the bike. Fingers crossed that this is the fix.

[Ezzzzy1]

Alright. I could use a little insight....

The bike is at a factory shop right now. They are saying that cylinder 1 is not firing. Ok, makes sense but hes saying that the cylinder is washed from the fuel and he wants to pull the head off to inspect it. $400 is what that would cost.

My question is, from anyones experience, can a washed cylinder cause ring and block damage? They did a leakdown on it and its reading 160ish and the other three are 180ish.

All that said, pulling the head doesnt solve the problem.

[FZRguy]

Is the shop saying that compression loss is due to rings or valves? Simple test will tell. I've never heard the term "washed cylinder." Is he trying to say fuel leaked passed the rings?

[Bueller]

The cyl. gets washed with unburnt fuel and dissolves all the oil off cyl walls so there is no lubrication. Cyl walls and rings will score from direct metal to metal. Should be able to see that with a borescope. Don't know why they would need to pull head for inspection. Is it intermittently not firing or completely dead?

If seriously scored it would need extensive work, if not too bad you could squirt some oil in plug hole and crank it over a few revolutions to get some lube on cyl walls.

[Ezzzzy1]

It seems intermittent. As in its runs like a top after about 4k RPMs and you can litterally feel it go from running on 3 to 4 cylinders. So, im guessing when thats happening its working as it should.

I brought up the borescope and he was more like "we should pull the head". If there is damage the motor is going away, I dont see any point to spending $400 to physically inspect the internals. That and what does that do towards solving the problem?

Could a bad coil be the culprate? The warmer the coil gets the more it fouls? Anyone seen that before?

Mechanic did say that he added a bit of oil and it ran better but that still doesnt fix the spark issue.

[Wrider]

Wish I had seen this yesterday, I would have lent you my borescope on my way through Rastle...

Before you get too turned on by motor damage, it's actually pretty easy to re-hone a cylinder. That might be all it needs.

Sounds to me like it could be a bad fuel injector honestly. If it's not running well at lower RPMs it could just be that it's held open and running way too rich for that cylinder. Once you get going, your higher RPMs are keeping it going by burning the extra fuel (again running too rich, so keeping the cylinder cooler than normal).

[longrider]

First, I completely agree that if you are not going to fix the engine if the cylinder is wasted there in no sense in pulling the head. A borescope will tell you all you need to know. A coil is unlikely to fail the way you are describing but it is very easy to check. All 4 coils are identical so just swap the bad cylinder with a good one and see if the problem moves (obviously switch the wires so the wires stay with the same cylinder) From everything you have described it does point to a ring sealing issue. Lower compression in that cylinder, squirting oil in helps, and even the running at higher RPM all point to cylinder leakage issue.

[Ezzzzy1]

So lets say that the injector is the culprate (as in its staying open). I suppose that could fowl out the plug right? But then what would make is start running better at 4k RPM? Maybe just the fact that the injector is firing normally means the plug can catch up and fire it instead of getting flooded out?

On a car I know how to listen to and injector to see what its doing. Hows this done on a motorcycle? If there were an injector issue wouldnt it throw a code?

[Wrider]

Yeah it could foul out the plug pretty easily.

At 4-6K on a N/A engine more fuel must be added so that it can run properly at about 10-12K you actually shut down fuel a little. Weird but it works. So basically if the injector is stuck open (or partially open), it'll start running better and better up to a certain point.

Does it run fine at 14-16K RPM?

You can listen to a bike injector the same way as you do the car injector, but it's gonna be a PITA to get to because usually it's mounted to the throttle body under the tank. As for the code, not necessarily. If it's stuck open then the current is flowing through it no problem when the bike sends the current and it sends back the proper current. The spring won't return it to its previous state though. So the bike will never know that it's not back in the place it should be. If you have a closed loop FI system (I don't think you do) then it might throw a code for running too rich, but that'd be about it.

EDIT: Apparently you do have a closed loop system, so it might be picking up that it's running extra rich, but compensating by running the rest of the cylinders leaner.

[blaircsf]

I bought a borescope off Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JERRES6) for something else I was doing. It's not the nicest one but for $20 it works just fine. You would be welcome to borrow it, although we are sort of on opposite ends of the front range. If you have Amazon prime you could get one this week.