Moto Expo death, stabbing and shooting...

[Hibs]

Discuss....

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Several-Shot-At-Denver-Motorcycle-Expo-367103441.html

DENVER (AP) Denver's police chief says one person was fatally shot and seven others were wounded when a fight broke out a motorcycle expo on Saturday. Police Chief Robert White tells reporters that it was unclear what prompted the incident at the National Western Complex, where the Colorado Motorcycle Expo was being held this weekend. He says other events associated with the expo have been canceled.
White says investigators believe there was an exchange of gunfire. In addition to the person who was shot and killed, three others were shot. White says another person was stabbed and three others suffered injuries from a fistfight.
Police were keeping a heavy presence at the hospital where the injured people were being treated to prevent the incident from spreading from the expo.
Police are interviewing a person of interest, and White says investigators believe there was more than one shooter.
Previous Story:
One person is dead after a shooting at the Colorado Motorcycle Expo in Denver Saturday afternoon.
Several people were injured. Denver police say that one person was also stabbed.
Police say no one has been arrested at this time. According to authorities, one person was killed and at least six others were injured.

Officers responded to the Denver Coliseum around 1 p.m. Police say shots were fired and then a stabbing occurred.
Sister station KCNC reports that some of the injured were rushed to Denver Health Medical Center. A number of police officers are patrolling the ER entrance.
Denver Health says the lockdown at the hospital has been lifted. It's back to normal operations.
Hospital officials say three victims are in critical condition and three others are in stable condition.
The attack is being investigated but witnesses told our sister station KCNC that there was a dispute between motorcycle gangs.

The event went on as scheduled but once attendees left and crossed police lines, they couldn't re-enter.
We are working to get more information.



First I find it insane that one person is dead and six others injured, and not a single person has been arrested. You mean to tell me that a shooting and stabbing with 7 victims, and no one could ID the culprit(s)??

And when I first heard about this I though to myself, hmmmm... moto expo, big fight, musta been "biker gangs"... and hey, what do you know....

Did the Iron Rockets bump into the Rough Ryders?

Hells Angels vs Mongols?

Or maybe disgruntled CSC Moderators?

[TFOGGuys]

Mongols and Iron Order banging heads, from all accounts. The police have a "person of interest" in custody, but no charges have been filed.

[FZRguy]

Might spell the end of this particular Moto Expo.

[koop]

They have a pretty good description of the suspect. White guy, black shirt, jeans, black vest.

[~Barn~]

Most of the Iron Order (from what I hear anyway...) are current/former police and military. Not entirely surprising that "gang" got into it with another group.

Those clubs need Moderators!

[longrider]

Some of the news reports have one of the involved parties being a Department of Corrections officer. (you know, that sounds a lot better than Prison Guard.. :) ) Also, there has been talk that the show will not be coming back next year.

[Gramps]

Overall I don't think this is good for the moto community in Denver. I don't care what you ride the general public forms an impression based on these type of reports.


I don't think it's a very far leap to form the impression as a non educated car driver that we are all bad and if they see us do something they perceive to be wrong they can call and report or worse yet take matters in to their own hands.

Hope for the best I guess.

[Ezzzzy1]

It was crazy there for a bit. Everyone hit the deck once the gun shots started going off. There is a big sliding steal door behind our booth that we had previously said we would go through if anything were to happen but I was trapped between two motorcycles and couldnt get around. We couldnt see exactly what was going on but shortly after the comotion they drug one guy out that was bleeding pretty good.

Sucks that a ton of $$ was missed out on but im glad there were no "innocent" folks hurt. They found a full .40 cal magazine in our booth that someone had stashed. Had half of our booth closed down for 8 hours.

My guess is that the show will change into something a little more family friendly and not a meeting spot for the 1%ers

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Ezzzzy1/IMG_6182_zpsgbmtqf2l.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Ezzzzy1/media/IMG_6182_zpsgbmtqf2l.jpg.html)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Ezzzzy1/IMG_6186_zps8yasdvgz.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Ezzzzy1/media/IMG_6186_zps8yasdvgz.jpg.html)

There was a picture in the paper of the guy being helped out of the building in front of our booth.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Ezzzzy1/IMG_6196_zpsf2guovt0.png (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Ezzzzy1/media/IMG_6196_zpsf2guovt0.png.html)

[Hibs]

WOW, glad you're ok. Sucks that assholes like that have to ruin a good thing for all of us. Can't believe that with that police presence you pictured, the perpetrator(s) didn't get mowed down. Probably just because white cops don't like to shoot white bad guys.

[Ezzzzy1]

They are now saying that the only suspect is a correction officer that is also a Iron Order MC member.

Not that having a gun out is terrible but a picture of it while you are leaving the scene isnt all that great.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Ezzzzy1/2016-02-01_14-09-48_zps4bvwpygj.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/Ezzzzy1/media/2016-02-01_14-09-48_zps4bvwpygj.jpg.html)

[FZRguy]

Shame. Nice looking booth EJ.

[asp_125]

I doubt if IMS will even consider coming back here now. I miss that show where it was less a leather pirate fest and more about manufacturers (and their test rides!). It was great when they had it up at Copper.

[longrider]

I doubt if IMS will even consider coming back here now. I miss that show where it was less a leather pirate fest and more about manufacturers (and their test rides!). It was great when they had it up at Copper.

You realize you are mixing up 3 different events? IMS (International Motorcycle Shows) was held at the convention center and it went away due to not enough attendance. This was straight from an IMS rep I talked to at the Dealer Expo a few years ago. The Copper Mountain event was Cycle Fest and it went away due to not making any money. (In this case I know the promoter personally) Colorado Motorcycle Expo, previously Colorado Motorcycle Show and Swap Meet, has always been a Harley-centric event. Where it goes from here will be interesting

[Ezzzzy1]

Shame. Nice looking booth EJ.

Thanks man! It is a shame. I bet over a million was lost in spent cash :cussing:

[#1Townie]

Thanks man! It is a shame. I bet over a million was lost in spent cash :cussing:

maybe a class action lawsuit against the two groups?

[Ezzzzy1]

You realize you are mixing up 3 different events? IMS (International Motorcycle Shows) was held at the convention center and it went away due to not enough attendance. This was straight from an IMS rep I talked to at the Dealer Expo a few years ago. The Copper Mountain event was Cycle Fest and it went away due to not making any money. (In this case I know the promoter personally) Colorado Motorcycle Expo, previously Colorado Motorcycle Show and Swap Meet, has always been a Harley-centric event. Where it goes from here will be interesting

Yeah the Expo/Swap has always been a meeting spot for the 1% groups. They literally force their members to attend. The clubs have always postured pretty hard but there literally hasnt been any altercations AT ALL.

Honestly its because they all respected each others "territory". When I first did the Expo in 2013 I was jammed in the corner of the lower level (the same area the Mongols claim as theirs). I learned pretty quickly from them who was allowed down there and who wasnt. Basically with them the only clubs that were allowed free passage were the religious ones. They had "guards" on the stairway (the same stairway where the shooting happened) and everyone knew not to go down there if they werent welcome.

Sounds like Iron Order either didnt give a shit about those lines or know that they existed (which I would find extremely hard to believe but is possible) and the rest is history.

Pretty sad.

[Hibs]

That is just so stupid. Why I hate MC gangs/clubs. Claim a "territory" and post guards? What a joke.

[Spooph]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xGyKBFCd_u4/hqdefault.jpg

[Ezzzzy1]

maybe a class action lawsuit against the two groups?

Ive thought about it. Im going to wait and see if they can pin all of this happening on a single person/group.

I bet im out $4-$5k from the lost sales, booth fees, marketing in various places.
I bet the ownership of the event is going to be out $200-$300k for refunds and missed entrance fees plus the value of their company just shit the bed.
The city of Denver misses out on all the tax revenue.

Its a loose loose for sure.

[Ezzzzy1]

The good news is: There were 10,800 people in the building at the time of the altercation. Id be willing to bet that there were 2000-3000 guns walking around that place when it all went down.

Its pretty impressive to me that the whole thing didnt turn into a giant shit show. I was trying to stay low and I didnt want my gun in a unaccessible spot. The guy next to me on the ground was laying on his stoumach with his gun out ready to rock and roll. It could have been really REALLY bad.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I used to go to the new M/C shows in Cleveland, and went to one here as well before it went away. I went to Cycle Fest with friends many years ago up in copper and had a blast, then that never happened again. Then I went to this event once years ago.....it since it seems to be nothing but a 1%'r fest, I never went again. A friend wanted to go this Sunday, and after what happened Saturday that cemented my desire to never go (AND it was shut down). It's sad that this shit had to happen, especially with all the innocents around. Thank GOD there were no kids injured. My question is, why not a ban on "colors" like there is at many bars? Maybe that wouldn't have stopped it, but it might have. Bars do it for a reason. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out, and if the suspect will be charged or simply found to be defending himself from a deadly threat. Remember the Twin Peaks affair down in TX recently?

[Ezzzzy1]

It was an evolution to where the Expo is at now. It started as a grungy swap meet that was eventually influenced by the clubs and quickly became an annual meeting spot for them. I respect how well they all got along and now because of the Expo have friends in each of the top MCs. Even those guys are pissed that this happened.

At the end of all this is one club that has had issues with pretty much everyone over the years. There are a lot of unspoken rules in the MC world and the Iron Order pretty much doesnt give a rats ass about them. They pretty much told the Mongols to suck it by going into their turf with their colors on (technically IO should have asked for permission from the Mongols to use the same colors). Its an interesting world but the bottom line has always been "give respect, get respect" and the IO shit all over that for whatever reason.

Sure the show could just ban the colors but at what price would that have come at? It almost was going to take something like this to change the direction of it all.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Sure the show could just ban the colors but at what price would that have come at? It almost was going to take something like this to change the direction of it all.
Looks like it did....and the result is they (on both sides, probably) ruined it for everyone. Honestly, I have zero respect for gangs or gang violence of any type, be it crips, bloods, or anyone else, especially when there is a chance of innocents getting hurt or killed because of the way they handle themselves and treat others.

[j0ker]

I used to work in a MC strip club where the owner wanted to drop the MC's as customers. My first day on the job, they banned all colors and visible tattoos. OMG, what a ruckus that was! I just don't get the, "I'm a badass cause I am in an MC" thing.

I am amazed this didn't turn out worse with all the concealed and open carry going on.

[#1Townie]

from what I have been reading about the iron order is that they hide behind their badges. few prosecutors actually file charges against their members because its usually some form of peace officer or member of the military.

I haven't seen it but apparently the leader in maine or something was caught on tape saying something about other mc's are open game because they won't call the cops.

[Ezzzzy1]

I still see a self defense angle but im not sure how far it goes because the IO essentially caused this whole thing by being disrespectful.

All of this is hearsay from people that were there in the area so take it for what its worth. According to them the IO was in the lower level where the Mongols had claimed their territory for years. One of the Mongols asked why they were down there and told them to leave. Apparently one of the IO shoved a Mongol and the Mongols opened up a can of Whoop Ass on the IO. Then one of the IO pulled out his gun and threatened to use it followed by 3 gun shots.

The detectives were saying that the guy that pulled his gun out originally was the correction officer pictured holding his gun at the top of the stairs. At that point (and im not sure which guy it is) you can see the Mongol that was fatally shot in the picture. So, if the IO had either shot because the Mongols were beating their guys to a pulp (one of the guys in critical was beat by hand) then I can (maybe) see justification to use deadly force. The other side is that if one of the Mongols (ie the guy that died) followed the corrections officer then the officer may have a leg to stand on for defending himself.

Either way, I have heard the same as Townie that the IO plays both sides of the card. A lot of people in the MC world say that you cant be a cop and an outlaw at the same time. That and they disrespected the Mongols by using their colors when picking theirs without asking. Apparently you are supposed to ask the larger clubs if you are even thinking about using an established MCs colors.

[j0ker]

I still see a self defense angle but im not sure how far it goes because the IO essentially caused this whole thing by being disrespectful.

All of this is hearsay from people that were there in the area so take it for what its worth. According to them the IO was in the lower level where the Mongols had claimed their territory for years. One of the Mongols asked why they were down there and told them to leave. Apparently one of the IO shoved a Mongol and the Mongols opened up a can of Whoop Ass on the IO. Then one of the IO pulled out his gun and threatened to use it followed by 3 gun shots.

The detectives were saying that the guy that pulled his gun out originally was the correction officer pictured holding his gun at the top of the stairs. At that point (and im not sure which guy it is) you can see the Mongol that was fatally shot in the picture. So, if the IO had either shot because the Mongols were beating their guys to a pulp (one of the guys in critical was beat by hand) then I can (maybe) see justification to use deadly force. The other side is that if one of the Mongols (ie the guy that died) followed the corrections officer then the officer may have a leg to stand on for defending himself.

Either way, I have heard the same as Townie that the IO plays both sides of the card. A lot of people in the MC world say that you cant be a cop and an outlaw at the same time. That and they disrespected the Mongols by using their colors when picking theirs without asking. Apparently you are supposed to ask the larger clubs if you are even thinking about using an established MCs colors.


And these are all adults....

[bulldog]

If anyone wants to learn more about the 1%ers this is a good book of the first undercover agent that got patched in.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OaaS42Q0L.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Alone-Undercover-Infiltrated-Motorcycle/dp/0345487524

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I still see a self defense angle but im not sure how far it goes because the IO essentially caused this whole thing by being disrespectful.

All of this is hearsay from people that were there in the area so take it for what its worth. According to them the IO was in the lower level where the Mongols had claimed their territory for years. One of the Mongols asked why they were down there and told them to leave. Apparently one of the IO shoved a Mongol and the Mongols opened up a can of Whoop Ass on the IO. Then one of the IO pulled out his gun and threatened to use it followed by 3 gun shots.

The detectives were saying that the guy that pulled his gun out originally was the correction officer pictured holding his gun at the top of the stairs. At that point (and im not sure which guy it is) you can see the Mongol that was fatally shot in the picture. So, if the IO had either shot because the Mongols were beating their guys to a pulp (one of the guys in critical was beat by hand) then I can (maybe) see justification to use deadly force. The other side is that if one of the Mongols (ie the guy that died) followed the corrections officer then the officer may have a leg to stand on for defending himself.

Either way, I have heard the same as Townie that the IO plays both sides of the card. A lot of people in the MC world say that you cant be a cop and an outlaw at the same time. That and they disrespected the Mongols by using their colors when picking theirs without asking. Apparently you are supposed to ask the larger clubs if you are even thinking about using an established MCs colors.
Well, this being America, and the event being an event open to the public, anyone can go anywhere, and where whatever clothing they want, and nobody needs anyone's "permission". The rule of law applies, not some stupid "biker code", and IF the IO guy legitimately felt himself or another was in danger for their life, I believe the law allows themselves to defend that life. Crips, bloods, biker gangs, they're all thugs and have no sympathy from me. Live by the sword, die by it.

[#1Townie]

Well, this being America, and the event being an event open to the public, anyone can go anywhere, and where whatever clothing they want, and nobody needs anyone's "permission". The rule of law applies, not some stupid "biker code", and IF the IO guy legitimately felt himself or another was in danger for their life, I believe the law allows themselves to defend that life. Crips, bloods, biker gangs, they're all thugs and have no sympathy from me. Live by the sword, die by it.

not if physical contact was made by io to begin with as the so called rumors are claiming. if that turns out to be true then the Mongols had every right to defend themselves against the others.

also just because it is America no one has a right to go out of their way to start a fight with anyone. one big argument I would use from the Mongols side is why were these guys here? why you ask? to start a fight.

you can't claim self-defense when you go out of your way to start a fight and even assult someone. at that point you have become the criminal and should be prepared for a shit storm.

[Ezzzzy1]

not if physical contact was made by io to begin with as the so called rumors are claiming. if that turns out to be true then the Mongols had every right to defend themselves against the others.

also just because it is America no one has a right to go out of their way to start a fight with anyone. one big argument I would use from the Mongols side is why were these guys here? why you ask? to start a fight.

you can't claim self-defense when you go out of your way to start a fight and even assult someone. at that point you have become the criminal and should be prepared for a shit storm.

I completely agree with you and im just playing the devils advocate but I still see this weird angle and im sure IO is going to play self defense.

Say person A starts arguing with person B and pushes them, then person B starts beating them up. Then persons C,D,E,F,G all jump in and persons H,I,J,K,L do the same from the other side. What happens if C starts really hurting H and person Z pulls out their gun and shoots C? Even if hes with the same group that started it, all he has to say is that he was afraid for Hs life and hes good. Even more if H ends up in critical condition.

I dont know. I just feel like IO knows enough about how the legal game is played to get through some of it without being touched. They seemingly have done it before.

[Ezzzzy1]

Crips, bloods, biker gangs, they're all thugs and have no sympathy from me. Live by the sword, die by it.

I always was under the impression that if you were "claiming" a side you lost your rights to the self defense card. I swear I had this conversation years ago with a cop. The only way that someone in a gang could be considered defending themselves was if they were at their own home. Other wise they made the decision to segregate themselves in a group of people that draw lines in the sand. They decided to cross that line.

I agree, they are all adults but this is a completely different lifestyle than most any of us know.

[#1Townie]

there is a world out there that lives by a different set of rules.

aaron you want to chime in here? where does the self-defense come into play on a situation like this? and also what about the Mongols right to stand their ground?

what I would think is that the moment io committed the crime they wouldn't have a right to claim self-defense. the Mongols would have the law on their side with the whole stand your ground stuff.

buuuut if the force exceeded what the situation called for than the Mongols find themselves in a sticky situation.

idk thats a fun one to go back and forth on. either way I see the main instigators being io. think a healthy lawsuit against the mc should come about. lost wages and all that fun stuff.

[Hibs]

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29456619/motorcycle-club-lawyer-members-attacked-by-rival-gangs

Members of two rival motorcycle clubs — one largely made up of police officers — are blaming each other for a fight Saturday that left one man dead and seven others shot or stabbed.

No arrests have been made, police said Sunday, and the seven injured at the Colorado Motorcycle Expo remain hospitalized.

Stephen Stubbs, an attorney for the Mongols Motorcycle Club, says members of the Iron Order Motorcycle Club taunted Mongols into an argument and then escalated the violence that led to the fatal shooting of a Mongols member.

Many of those in the Iron Order are police officers, military members and other law enforcement officers.

"The Iron Order are cowards," Stubbs said Sunday. "The Iron Order started an argument. An Iron Order member threw the first punch. And when they were handily losing the fight they pulled out a gun and shot a Mongol. The only person who died here was shot by a member of the cop club."

But John C. Whitfield, a lawyer for the Iron Order Motorcycle Club, said Sunday the shootout may have started when three members were jumped by members of one or more biker gangs.

Vince Bohm, who identified himself as a member of the Mongols Motorcycle Club, said an off-duty police officer fatally shot a Mongol.

Whitfield said a Colorado Department of Corrections officer fired a shot during the incident, but he didn't know if that bullet hit any Mongols.

Stubbs, Bohm and Whitfield did not witness Saturday's brawl at the 38th annual motorcycle expo, but relayed what they heard from numerous members of the two clubs.

A large number of the Mongols, a biker gang whose website advises that they are "the baddest motorcycle club known worldwide," were at the expo. Members of other outlaw motorcycle gangs including the Bandidos and Hells Angels also were there.

Stubbs claims that the Iron Order likewise identifies itself as an outlaw motorcycle club, because it uses three patches to identify different ranks of members.

"They are known for picking fights and being jerks," he said. "It was a fair fight until the Iron Order member pulled out a gun. For them to come out and play the victim when they picked the fight is outrageous. They are a bunch of cops who say the rules of society don't apply to them."

The U.S. Department of Justice classifies the Mongols as a highly organized criminal enterprise.

Members of the Mongols did not fire a single bullet during the confrontation, Stubbs said.

He said the incident began near the basement where several Mongols had booths set up to sell T-shirts, Stubbs said. Several Iron Order members were drinking beers and staring the Mongols down. A group of Mongols walked over and said, "What are you doing here? Get out of here," Stubbs said.

One Iron Order member shoved a Mongol. A Mongol knocked a beer out of his hand. During a fight that broke out, another Iron Order member, who appeared to be drunk, pulled out a gun, waved it in the air, yelled profanities and threatened, "I'll shoot you," Stubbs said.

At that point, one of the Mongols charged the gun-toting man to tackle him and the Iron Order member shot him, Stubbs said. A melee broke out in which the Mongols had beaten their rivals, he said. The man who was armed stood up on the stairs and began waving his gun again. Another Mongol charged after him again and the Iron Order member fatally shot him, Stubbs said.

The Iron Order member who shot two men was handcuffed and taken to the police station to be questioned, he said.

"Even Mongols have a right to defend themselves," Stubbs said.

The version Whitfield tells is much different.

Only about 15 members of the Iron Order were attending the event when three got separated from the group and were jumped by members of the Mongols, and possibly others, he said. "Once that happened, there was an opportunity to jump them, and they were sorely outnumbered," Whitfield said.

Whitfield, who is flying to Denver Sunday to help handle the matter, said the fight started on a flight of stairs. "There were Mongols in front, and Mongols in back," and they began harassing an African-American member of the Iron Order.

"One of the Mongols knocked a beer out of his hand and called him a racial slur," Whitfield said.

Another member of the Mongols then confronted the corrections officer, and another Iron Order member, who was later taken into custody.

The Mongols shot first, Whitfield said. "It grazed one of our guys, and then hit another one. Then they stabbed one of our guys repeatedly and started beating up the other fellow."

The corrections officer fired his gun "clearly in self defense," Whitfield said.

Bohm, a former "patched" member of the Mongols, said he arrived at the show just after the shooting as a large group of Bandidos were streaming out of the Expo.

The primary combatants were members of the cop club and the Mongols, but it was an off-duty cop who fatally shot the Mongol, he said.

He said he is concerned that any investigation will not result in charges against a police officer, even though shooting a gun at a crowded show with kids is very dangerous.

"If a cop shoots him they'll find some way to get him off," Bohm said Sunday.

Detectives continue to interview witnesses Sunday, Raquel Lopez, Denver police spokeswoman said.

"As of right now there are no arrests," Lopez said. "They are still trying to figure it out."

Lopez said she does not know which gang the person who died Saturday is affiliated with.

And that isn't a detail that Chief Robert White is going to release at this point, she said.

Detectives have not been able to question some of the key witnesses, including those who were shot or stabbed, because they are still undergoing treatment.

"There is a lot of information that is still not known," Lopez said.

Lopez said she cannot comment on whether guns used in an exchange of gunfire have been obtained. That information is part of the investigation and will not be revealed, she said.

Denver police spokesman Sonny Jackson said the melee will be thoroughly investigated and when the review is complete, the case will be presented to District Attorney Mitch Morrissey for possible charges.

"We're hearing different things about what happened," Jackson said. Before the police department releases facts about what happened they will conduct an investigation including collecting evidence at the scene.

The Denver Coroner's Office will release the identity of the dead man, she said.

Stubbs declined to name the dead man.

The injured were taken to Denver Health Medical Center, and the hospital was put on lockdown for a few hours Saturday afternoon.

The lockdown has since been lifted, and the hospital is in normal operations, though officers are still on the scene to prevent further trouble.

The seven people injured Saturday remained hospitalized Sunday. Three are listed in critical condition and four are listed in stable condition.

Denver officials canceled the expo's Sunday session at the National Western Stock Show Complex.

On Sunday, the expo's organizer posted a short message apologizing to vendors and patrons for the inconvenience.

Robert Lee comes to the event every year from his home in England to buy and sell motorcycles.

On Sunday, he was loading a pair of motorcycles he had sold into a trailer.

The shooting broke out near the spot where he was selling, but he had left his booth to get a bowl of chile, and didn't witness the bloodshed.

When he returned to the booth, police had cordoned it off, and he was unable to sell anything else. The violence, "just killed business stone dead," he said.

"We do get gang fights in England, but they try not to do it in public. It is just wrong to bring guns to an event like this," he said.

Donald Haverland, who was showing motorcycles at the Expo with his wife, has come to the event for each of the past seven years.

During that time, there have been altercations between packs of bikers, but nothing as serious as Saturday's deadly brawl.

"But I have noticed a level of antagonism increasing over the years," he said.

When the couple first began coming to the show, Haverland said, he often saw several members of different motorcycle clubs talking to each other. Most of the bikers considered the event neutral territory.

But over the past two or three years, he noticed a change in attitude.

"Someone would walk up to somebody real fast like they were mad, and then stop about 10 feet away and stare at them, and there were groups bumping into others, he said.

"I haven't wanted to come for the past five or six years because I could see an escalation," Haverland said. He came this year because his wife, Rochelle Hayes-Haverland, insisted.

She said she heard about the brawl while she was attending the Tanner Gun Show, held at the Denver Mart, on East 58th Avenue. "I was shocked," she said.

Tom McGhee: 303-954-1671, tmcghee@denverpost.com or @dpmcghee

[#1Townie]

notice how when they talk about the Mongols or another mc the word gang is used? I didn't see that once about the io.

anyone ever notice how slow law enforcement reacts when it involves a cop?

"we have to finish our investigation"

[#1Townie]

Well, this being America, and the event being an event open to the public, anyone can go anywhere, and where whatever clothing they want, and nobody needs anyone's "permission". The rule of law applies, not some stupid "biker code", and IF the IO guy legitimately felt himself or another was in danger for their life, I believe the law allows themselves to defend that life. Crips, bloods, biker gangs, they're all thugs and have no sympathy from me. Live by the sword, die by it.

https://twistedthrottletattoo.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/outlaw-life-a-1ers-take/

here's an interesting take on why they don't share colors.

[j0ker]

notice how when they talk about the Mongols or another mc the word gang is used? I didn't see that once about the io.

anyone ever notice how slow law enforcement reacts when it involves a cop?

"we have to finish our investigation"

Yea, I did notice that. The writeup was clearly not trying to frame the IO as a gang or bunch of criminals. But, they use the 3 patch system and act like thugs. I sure hope there is security video of how this went down.

Weaksauce all around.

[GMR]

bunch of god damn children. seriously must be a bunch of unmarried men just hoping to find ways to express their frustration with life and try to expedite their own death. all this shit is such childish bullshit. sucks that it happened in such a public place and probably ruined this event forever (i wanted to go look at bikes and perhaps sell one of mine in the future).
too bad these can't just happen in a park after dark and they can all just kill eachother until the last one stands and can resume his normal life once his whole club is wiped out. am I the only one who wishes this and like that twin peaks incident the same result would have happened?

[#1Townie]

bunch of god damn children. seriously must be a bunch of unmarried men just hoping to find ways to express their frustration with life and try to expedite their own death. all this shit is such childish bullshit. sucks that it happened in such a public place and probably ruined this event forever (i wanted to go look at bikes and perhaps sell one of mine in the future).
too bad these can't just happen in a park after dark and they can all just kill eachother until the last one stands and can resume his normal life once his whole club is wiped out. am I the only one who wishes this and like that twin peaks incident the same result would have happened?

if by incident and result you mean a clear violation of our laws to arrest people.... hell no. why would I want to give people the right to do whatever they want because they think it's okay?

not to mention our tax dollars will end up being a payday to them. yeah that sounds like a great idea. let's blow the case by killing the constitution and then give them a fat payday.

no thank you.

[Hibs]

https://twistedthrottletattoo.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/outlaw-life-a-1ers-take/

here's an interesting take on why they don't share colors.

Dumbest thing I've read in a while. Author keeps talking about how 1%'ers "earned these colors, earned these patches, through blood, blah blah".... OHHH REALLY? By playing a year of being someone's beer bitch while you prospected, that makes it "earned"??? Unless your club requires having fought in the Battle of Fallujah I don't want to hear about "I spilled blood to earn this patch". I'd go even as far as to say that Cops have more of a right to claim they earned a patch then the majority of 1%'ers. Yep, that cop who is doing his 12 hour grinds, some obviously rougher and more dangerous then others, but all of them I'm sure a lot harder then the average 1%'er.

[#1Townie]

Dumbest thing I've read in a while. Author keeps talking about how 1%'ers "earned these colors, earned these patches, through blood, blah blah".... OHHH REALLY? By playing a year of being someone's beer bitch while you prospected, that makes it "earned"??? Unless your club requires having fought in the Battle of Fallujah I don't want to hear about "I spilled blood to earn this patch". I'd go even as far as to say that Cops have more of a right to claim they earned a patch then the majority of 1%'ers. Yep, that cop who is doing his 12 hour grinds, some obviously rougher and more dangerous then others, but all of them I'm sure a lot harder then the average 1%'er.

ummm.... you don't know much about the history of the 1% clubs do you?

most of these clubs are old. like 60s and some even earlier old. the majority of these clubs were made up by Vietnam vets who came home to a country that spit on them and called them baby killers. that is what started them to forming these clubs.

I'm pretty sure some of those guys would love to compare war stories and even how they were treated when returning home.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw_motorcycle_club

[Hibs]

And how many guys from the 1960s makes up club members now? Ya, that's what I thought. And I know there is veterans in the clubs, but I'd venture to say the majority of members are not.

[#1Townie]

And how many guys from the 1960s makes up club members now? Ya, that's what I thought. And I know there is veterans in the clubs, but I'd venture to say the majority of members are not.

so what you are saying that because in your eyes non of them faught Fallujah they have no rights to honor or respect?

does this mean I also don't have a right to honor and respect? your words are what creates a divide with public and military personnel. Best part is. the guys I know who have actually faught and have earned the right to talk shit don't.

they are humble and don't claim to have more rights than others because they went to Iraq. leave that shit at the door bruh.

I'm sorry if you have some bad memory from over there but if the best example you are going to bring to the table is a battle that we didn't even lose 100 troops in you are coming up short.

there has been much harder battles faught in our history. so lets just move away from they have no right to claim respect because they weren't there. mmmkay?

[Hibs]

I see you clearly misinterpreted where I was going with that statement, and replied with your typical douchey response. So let me break it down for you barney style, mmmmkay?

For the author of that article to make claims of blood and sacrifice being the reasons as to why they deserve to wear their patch, is utter and complete bullshit, in my opinion. The only blood and sacrifice they encounter is from shit they initiate.

Honor and respect? Don't even talk about honor and respect. Tell me, what have they done to gain honor and respect?? Guard a fucking stairwell at a bike expo? What a joke. These guys are nothing but thugs, who the majority of time run a criminal enterprise. You telling me that deserves honor and respect??? They ain't even good at being thugs. If they are so hard core bad to the bone mother fuckers as that author wants us to beleive, they'd have smoked at least a few IO members in retaliation by now. They'd rip patches off the backs of IO guys when they see them on the road and leave them for dead. But.... I don't see that happening?? Instead they guard a stairwell and cry like bitches when one of their own gets smoked.

Honor and respect is not given because you wear a patch. It's earned every day, military, cops, firefighters, etc... and not saying there aren't MC guys who haven't done that. But the majority that I do see, is all about the image. Hanging out, wearing the cuts, with their baton and 357 mag revolver they are open carrying, just out there trying to act tough and looking for a fight. A large part military age males, who never served but want to talk about how they'd smoke ISIS and this and that. News flash, all branches of the military is hiring. Cops always in demand. Drug war is alive and thriving. Border needs protected. Want to prove how bad ass you are, go do something more with your life.

[#1Townie]

I see you clearly misinterpreted where I was going with that statement, and replied with your typical douchey response. So let me break it down for you barney style, mmmmkay?

For the author of that article to make claims of blood and sacrifice being the reasons as to why they deserve to wear their patch, is utter and complete bullshit, in my opinion. The only blood and sacrifice they encounter is from shit they initiate.

Honor and respect? Don't even talk about honor and respect. Tell me, what have they done to gain honor and respect?? Guard a fucking stairwell at a bike expo? What a joke. These guys are nothing but thugs, who the majority of time run a criminal enterprise. You telling me that deserves honor and respect??? They ain't even good at being thugs. If they are so hard core bad to the bone mother fuckers as that author wants us to beleive, they'd have smoked at least a few IO members in retaliation by now. They'd rip patches off the backs of IO guys when they see them on the road and leave them for dead. But.... I don't see that happening?? Instead they guard a stairwell and cry like bitches when one of their own gets smoked.

Honor and respect is not given because you wear a patch. It's earned every day, military, cops, firefighters, etc... and not saying there aren't MC guys who haven't done that. But the majority that I do see, is all about the image. Hanging out, wearing the cuts, with their baton and 357 mag revolver they are open carrying, just out there trying to act tough and looking for a fight. A large part military age males, who never served but want to talk about how they'd smoke ISIS and this and that. News flash, all branches of the military is hiring. Cops always in demand. Drug war is alive and thriving. Border needs protected. Want to prove how bad ass you are, go do something more with your life.

just being a cop DOESNT give honor either. there is plenty of cops that commit crimes every day. so umm... yeah... by your own words fuck cops too. hell what about soldiers who come home and start committing crimes? shall be throw them all into the same group?

sure there is a criminal element but you have no idea what that 1% is about. you watched WAAAAAY too much sons of anarchy.

those so called gangs actually do a lot. they raise money for their communities and do a lot of good. you just don't see that on the news because.... well... it doesn't make you afraid.

I'm not sure who you are talking about because more than the majority of mc riders I have ever met have wives. they have families. they have jobs. they are not drug lords who around like its wild west.

I'm not saying those things don't happen but they happen in all walks of life. cops deal drugs. soldiers commit crimes.

defending a stairway? lol. bro if you even bothered to pay attention to what was going you would know that the guys in the pic on the stairway was the iron order.

the iron order is a 1% mc that is made up of active duty law enforcement and military. hahahaha!

you have no idea what you are talking about here. go read some history. educate yourself some. stop talking out of your ass and out of emotion about things you don't know.

your ignorance is so pathetic I truly fear for your safety in the real world.

[Hibs]

Ah ya, I was waiting for the "MCs hold 1 rally a year for disabled kids, so hey they must be good guys!"....

Ya man, you got it right. Cops and soldiers are criminals, and 1%'ers are hero's that deserve honor and respect.

I'm gonna go live in the real world now.

[Ezzzzy1]

B.A.C.A. is who we donate and support in the MC world. They do a lot of good for kids.

http://bacaworld.org/

[#1Townie]

Ah ya, I was waiting for the "MCs hold 1 rally a year for disabled kids, so hey they must be good guys!"....

Ya man, you got it right. Cops and soldiers are criminals, and 1%'ers are hero's that deserve honor and respect.

I'm gonna go live in the real world now.

again just shows your ignorance.

[j0ker]

Dumbest thing I've read in a while. Author keeps talking about how 1%'ers "earned these colors, earned these patches, through blood, blah blah".... OHHH REALLY? By playing a year of being someone's beer bitch while you prospected, that makes it "earned"??? ....

I have personally witnessed 35+ year old 250+ lb men being told to do the stupidest shit as a clubs prospects, just to make it into an MC. Hibs has it right when he calls them beer bitches, cause that is what most of them do. They go get the beer and weed and are basically just little mindless bitches. I do not understand that mentality.

[Nolan]

To me this is no different than watching a couple douchebags argue about the Broncos and Raiders then going to blows.... Or a bunch of monkeys posting up against other monkeys invading territory..... I'm going to go watch national geographic and watch how all the animals act around a watering hole. Shouldn't be much different.

[#1Townie]

I have personally witnessed 35+ year old 250+ lb men being told to do the stupidest shit as a clubs prospects, just to make it into an MC. Hibs has it right when he calls them beer bitches, cause that is what most of them do. They go get the beer and weed and are basically just little mindless bitches. I do not understand that mentality.

thats a prospect. you are talking about a club that has deep roots. sure as a prospect you go through some shit. you want to just walk into a brotherhood without proving yourself? ever see what happens to a kid who gets a marines tat before basic?

I remember when this forum went nuts when they found a website in Kansas that used the CSC logo for their forum people went nuts.

I guess I'm just basically saying I can see why the Mongols are not happy. I can also understand that live their life in a different way. I mean... the whole 1% thing right?

but really I have no dog in the fight. well.... except I have a lot of distrust for cops. lol.

[Hibs]

I have no doubt 1%'ers do some good things.I have no doubt some cops are bad. But to portray this image, like you've been doing Townie, that somehow outlaw MC are the innocent victim and it's always the cops out to get them, is far from the truth.

Personally, I'd trust the IO long before I'd trust a Mongol.

[#1Townie]

I have no doubt 1%'ers do some good things.I have no doubt some cops are bad. But to portray this image, like you've been doing Townie, that somehow outlaw MC are the innocent victim and it's always the cops out to get them, is far from the truth.

Personally, I'd trust the IO long before I'd trust a Mongol.

and I vise versa. cops can be criminals too.

http://www.policemisconduct.net

[j0ker]

thats a prospect. you are talking about a club that has deep roots. sure as a prospect you go through some shit. you want to just walk into a brotherhood without proving yourself? ever see what happens to a kid who gets a marines tat before basic?

I remember when this forum went nuts when they found a website in Kansas that used the CSC logo for their forum people went nuts.

I guess I'm just basically saying I can see why the Mongols are not happy. I can also understand that live their life in a different way. I mean... the whole 1% thing right?

but really I have no dog in the fight. well.... except I have a lot of distrust for cops. lol.

I understand what a prospect is, but goddamn it is stupid. Grabbing the beer for the crew doesn't prove shit other than you are a little subservient bitch. I also have a lot of distrust of cops. haha.

[#1Townie]

I understand what a prospect is, but goddamn it is stupid. Grabbing the beer for the crew doesn't prove shit other than you are a little subservient bitch. I also have a lot of distrust of cops. haha.

I truly wonder what the finale report on this is going to say.

[bulldog]

From reading the book "Under and Alone (http://www.amazon.com/Under-Alone-Undercover-Infiltrated-Motorcycle/dp/0345487524)" I have to say that Townie is stating a lot of truth. This undercover agent that did this biggest bust in 1% history even stated how not all the member's in these clubs are bad people and he even felt really bad when he convicted some of them as he did see a different side than he even anticipated. Sure some are bad, but a lot were just vets that started a club when everyone in society shunned them and many join because that is the only love they really receive.

This book also talks about the "prospect" aspect and shows what this agent went through to get patched in. Yes some of it is about getting beer, but mainly it is all about building trust and respect more than it is just being a beer waiter. These motorcycle clubs do background checks, surveillance, and much more than most people expect. For this agent to get "patched in" took a lot of manpower and deception to infiltrate the Mongols, so the people that think these are some stupid thugs do not know the full extent of it.

[Ezzzzy1]

I truly wonder what the finale report on this is going to say.

Its more or less wrapped up. The investigation has been done and its looking like no one will be charged (which sucks from a lawsuit perspective). The state agrees at this point that it was self defense and there is no one to charge for things happening the way they did.

Unless something changes, thats how its going to stay.

[bulldog]

REMOVED. Well I never really meant they were good people, just saying some people get the impression that gang members are stupid people when some are actually pretty smart; I grew up around some gang member leaders (because I was poor and lived where they did) and got to see that different part of life and "street smarts" is a real thing.

For example I never knew to get into the Mongols you have to complete an application; with SS #, references, past jobs, etc. They hire a private investigator to check the background on a member before they get "patched" in. This book just showed how these "gangs" like Mongols are a lot more advanced than people think and much more than just a bunch of drunks and it took a lot of police manpower to fool them...which took years!

So same as with the Mafia (another group I have studied in depth), people look at these types like they are dumb, but in reality they can be ran pretty well; sure not all legal of course. I've never liked gangs and always felt they were for people who were mainly cowards that needed backup from others and even though I was pressured my entire life I never joined one. To me it is a a stupid lifestyle that only causes problems. Like you said though the smart ones are uncommon and usually the idiots are the ones causing problems, but there are some top leaders that if they were raised differently they may have been successful business men.

I guess for me it is hard to put any group into one category as I feel people in general can just be bad so it would be hard for me to say ALL 1% are horrible people.

[bulldog]

Here is a decent article in Fortune that shows how MC Clubs like Hell's Angels are the largest organized crime after the Mafia and Asian gangs with a revenue of over $1 billion annually.
http://fortune.com/2012/12/02/the-hells-angels-devilish-business-fortune-1992/

Illegal and bad, but just like the drug cartels it is a business.

[Wrider]

bunch of god damn children. seriously must be a bunch of unmarried men just hoping to find ways to express their frustration with life and try to expedite their own death. all this shit is such childish bullshit. sucks that it happened in such a public place and probably ruined this event forever (i wanted to go look at bikes and perhaps sell one of mine in the future).
too bad these can't just happen in a park after dark and they can all just kill eachother until the last one stands and can resume his normal life once his whole club is wiped out. am I the only one who wishes this and like that twin peaks incident the same result would have happened?

Hey now... I'm 29 and unmarried, but even I'm not this fucking retarded. Besides, most of the outlaw bikers I know are married. Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

[#1Townie]

Here is a decent article in Fortune that shows how MC Clubs like Hell's Angels are the largest organized crime after the Mafia and Asian gangs with a revenue of over $1 billion annually.
http://fortune.com/2012/12/02/the-hells-angels-devilish-business-fortune-1992/

Illegal and bad, but just like the drug cartels it is a business.

I have always been curious as to who they get their numbers for their organized crime income stats.

but I do like how they word all that. lumping in the numbers of all outlaw clubs to compare to one drug cartel. and even at that the numbers don't even come close to the same.

if it had been written differently you could use those same numbers to show why the caretels are such a bigger threat than even our big crime organizations. lol

[bulldog]

I have always been curious as to who they get their numbers for their organized crime income stats.

but I do like how they word all that. lumping in the numbers of all outlaw clubs to compare to one drug cartel. and even at that the numbers don't even come close to the same.

if it had been written differently you could use those same numbers to show why the caretels are such a bigger threat than even our big crime organizations. lol Would be interesting to see how they get these stats and if they are even close to the truth, but even though they are "small fish" in it all, they still have it organized to be way more than just some guys hanging out riding and drinking.

But yeah really shows you how big the drug cartels are....which to me shows there are bigger issues like "the war on drugs does not work" and people are going to do drugs if they choose to. Really it all goes back to drugs as this is the largest illegal revenue and you bring that down most of these illegal organizations would collapse (maybe; still would be other sources). If it is not the MC clubs distributing drugs, then it would just be someone else; one goes down and two pop up...

[#1Townie]

Would be interesting to see how they get these stats and if they are even close to the truth, but even though they are "small fish" in it all, they still have it organized to be way more than just some guys hanging out riding and drinking.

But yeah really shows you how big the drug cartels are....which to me shows there are bigger issues like "the war on drugs does not work" and people are going to do drugs if they choose to. Really it all goes back to drugs as this is the largest illegal revenue and you bring that down most of these illegal organizations would collapse (maybe; still would be other sources). If it is not the MC clubs distributing drugs, then it would just be someone else; one goes down and two pop up...

I forget where I read it but it seems the biggest dent that has ever been made on the cartels has been legalizing pot.

[bulldog]

I forget where I read it but it seems the biggest dent that has ever been made on the cartels has been legalizing pot. Makes sense since drugs are not going away, just who people get them from. I'd much rather the state of CO bring in the millions from Marijuana than a drug cartel. Until drugs become legal, then people will just find ways to get them either way, so organized crime is always going to exist.

I guess in these Motorcycle clubs it basically is just a different way of living and most the people who want nothing to do with it steer clear of them. Sucks when public events like this one become a "territory" fight; as if they can't put it aside for one event...now they most likely will have no events like this and ruined it for everyone. I understand if maybe one club intruded into the club house of a rival, but damn this was a public event and a shame people can't put that aside.

[#1Townie]

Makes sense since drugs are not going away, just who people get them from. I'd much rather the state of CO bring in the millions from Marijuana than a drug cartel. Until drugs become legal, then people will just find ways to get them either way, so organized crime is always going to exist.

I guess in these Motorcycle clubs it basically is just a different way of living and most the people who want nothing to do with it steer clear of them. Sucks when public events like this one become a "territory" fight; as if they can't put it aside for one event...now they most likely will have no events like this and ruined it for everyone. I understand if maybe one club intruded into the club house of a rival, but damn this was a public event and a shame people can't put that aside.

well it is a unsaid rule that events like this are off limits. basically the whole point is that incidents like this are bad for business.

think if it like a business. if you go out of your way to create situations like what happened at this venue it just created more problems than what you are willing to deal with.

not to mention the unwanted attention from law enforcement. hard to do business or even just maintain your club if you are caught up in handcuffs all the time. lol.

thats kind of why I'm leaning towards believing the Mongols over the io. the io doesnt have as much to lose. even other Leo clubs have come out to say they don't have these issues because they aren't looking for problems.

[bulldog]

well it is a unsaid rule that events like this are off limits. basically the whole point is that incidents like this are bad for business.

think if it like a business. if you go out of your way to create situations like what happened at this venue it just created more problems than what you are willing to deal with.

not to mention the unwanted attention from law enforcement. hard to do business or even just maintain your club if you are caught up in handcuffs all the time. lol.

thats kind of why I'm leaning towards believing the Mongols over the io. the io doesnt have as much to lose. even other Leo clubs have come out to say they don't have these issues because they aren't looking for problems.

Yeah from what I know about these clubs there are a lot of unspoken rules and most the members follow by them and it works fairly well; especially the old schoolers. So yeah I agree with you man and just sounds like Iron Order just doesn’t want to follow these rules and it is causing problems. I wish I could say it surprises me, but that seems to be how a lot of “law enforcement” people act; people can say what they want but I have a buddy who is a cop and I’ve personally seen him pulled over for DUI and let go the minute he said he was a cop so I know they get away with more than an average citizen can.

I’d really be interested to see how this would have ended up if the other way around and a Mongol was the one doing the shooting as it appears no charges will be filed on the Iron Order member. I am not so sure them being ex law enforcement didn’t help them to not get charged.



To stir the pot….should self-defense be ok in a crowed public area like this? I see protecting yourself, but bullets can keep going and also miss and hit an innocent person. Not saying either way as I am not sure, but something I thought about.

[#1Townie]

Yeah from what I know about these clubs there are a lot of unspoken rules and most the members follow by them and it works fairly well; especially the old schoolers. So yeah I agree with you man and just sounds like Iron Order just doesn’t want to follow these rules and it is causing problems. I wish I could say it surprises me, but that seems to be how a lot of “law enforcement” people act; people can say what they want but I have a buddy who is a cop and I’ve personally seen him pulled over for DUI and let go the minute he said he was a cop so I know they get away with more than an average citizen can.

I’d really be interested to see how this would have ended up if the other way around and a Mongol was the one doing the shooting as it appears no charges will be filed on the Iron Order member. I am not so sure them being ex law enforcement didn’t help them to not get charged.



To stir the pot….should self-defense be ok in a crowed public area like this? I see protecting yourself, but bullets can keep going and also miss and hit an innocent person. Not saying either way as I am not sure, but something I thought about.

well I was reading an article the other where a real Leo MC had a lot to say about the io and none of it was good. lol.

I have always wondered why police are not held to the same standards that we are. why if I face a situation I have to be liable to whos, whys and whats but they are not.

if I shoot at an attacker and hit innocent bystanders Im so screwed that I may as well just let the guy kill me. not Leo.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/unarmed-man-is-charged-with-wounding-bystanders-shot-by-police-near-times-square.html?referer=&_r=0

lol!

[bulldog]

well I was reading an article the other where a real Leo MC had a lot to say about the io and none of it was good. lol.

I have always wondered why police are not held to the same standards that we are. why if I face a situation I have to be liable to whos, whys and whats but they are not.

if I shoot at an attacker and hit innocent bystanders Im so screwed that I may as well just let the guy kill me. not Leo.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/unarmed-man-is-charged-with-wounding-bystanders-shot-by-police-near-times-square.html?referer=&_r=0

lol! It really brings to mind the old saying "lead by example" then police wonder why so many people do not respect them, but most people know that cops do do get held to the same standards as citizens

Wow...I can't believe that article and just another example of how messed up things are! The fact this guy is charged with the cops missing and shooting a by standard in TIME SQUARE (the busiest place in this country) is unbelievable. I also like how it says after they fired their guns they took him down with a taser....ummmm, should the taser have been used first especially when you have hundreds of people around. But no lets blame the mentally disturbed person who never had a weapon cuz again a police officer used lethal force as their first option .....unbelievable!

[bulldog]

Wow, guess this was not the first time something like that happened in that area

Decision by 2 Officers to Open Fire in Busy Midtown Leaves Bystanders Wounded (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/police-decision-to-shoot-in-midtown-left-9-wounded.html)

[#1Townie]

Wow, guess this was not the first time something like that happened in that area

Decision by 2 Officers to Open Fire in Busy Midtown Leaves Bystanders Wounded (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/police-decision-to-shoot-in-midtown-left-9-wounded.html)

no man. there is a lot of stories where the cops miss the mark and hit innocent people.

do as I say not as I do. lol