Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[The Black Knight]

(http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/12/50-killed-in-shooting-at-florida-nightclub-in-possible-act-islamic-terror.html?intcmp=hpbt1)http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/12/50-killed-in-shooting-at-florida-nightclub-in-possible-act-islamic-terror.html?intcmp=hpbt1


I have my own theory as to why we are having certain amounts of mass shootings happening. This one tops it all.

Let me just say I believe that a lot of these mass shootings we are experiencing are being orchestrated by the powers that be. This kind of thing isn't random, I believe shooters are being activated in order to push an agenda forth to the public. Nothing could be more clear than the lady that was on ABC news being interviewed by George Stephanopolous. You could see she was reading a prompt from someone squatting down in front of her. Lastly, her final plea just before he let her go, was a plea to the country to do something about "Assault Weapons".

I've kept quiet about these kinds of things for a long time. However, I've had enough. I'm tired of all the anti-gun agenda being pushed from the powers that be. The fact that this shooting was perpetuated by a person of "alleged" Islam beliefs and parents of Afgani origin. To the fact that it was a homosexual hang-out. I mean this one hit all the hot button issues.

Something ain't right about all this. It just seems too orchestrated to be random....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/multiple-injuries-shooting-orlando-nightclub-police/story?id=39789552

[#1Townie]

the media has become so political it creates these kinds of feeling. because they get people make political decisions during very emotional situations.

our government also uses these emotions to try to guide us. lol. guide. fact is the average American feels very disenchanted with our politicians. thats why a reality TV host has a shot at being president. let that sink in.


i dont think this is a government coordinated any of these shootings. they are just so overly reported that the few we do have seem so sensational we feel we have to do something about this. this playing on our emotions again.

but let's take a look at our country these days. before 911 if I told you that your child was going to get groped by airport security you would be pissed. if I aid your wife was going to have her nude photos reviewed by airport security it would again be holy hell. now days? just part of the flight.

how about before 911 we talked about he government recording all of our phone calls and spying on us? i would have been to go get my tin hat. but now? NSA? turns out nope no need for a warrant because.... murica? idk.

how about the militarisation of our police force? remember when away was used to only go after the worst of the worst criminals? now days they are used for everything. you have speeding tickets? send in the mrap. you can thank the war on drugs for this one.

speaking of drugs. shall we talk about the cocaine explosion in the 80s? thanks cia. but we didn't hear much about that because we were too busy arguing about Clinton getting a blowjob. thanks media. you really did us a solid on that. so the cia funded coke trafficking just disappeared. how about now days? anyone ever thought about the explosion of heroin these days? guess what. looks like cia is at it again with Afghanistan this time.

but back to the shooting. i rhink all we have here is a guy who couldn't admit his own gay tendencies and went crazy fighting his owns demons until he went on a shooting spree. not the first time we have seen this from religious people.

but 50 people are dead. I'm sure we will have more gun debates in the near future.

[longrider]

I have to agree with Townie that there is no way this was planned/coordinated by the government. They would not stoop to the level of terrorists to advance a political agenda. Now will they use the tragedy to advance a political agenda? Absolutely. It will be interesting to see how this develops, my first gut reaction was it was just someone who hated gays and went off the deep end but now I am hearing reports he got involved with ISIS

[JKOL]

the media has become so political it creates these kinds of feeling. because they get people make political decisions during very emotional situations.

our government also uses these emotions to try to guide us. lol. guide. fact is the average American feels very disenchanted with our politicians. thats why a reality TV host has a shot at being president. let that sink in.


i dont think this is a government coordinated any of these shootings. they are just so overly reported that the few we do have seem so sensational we feel we have to do something about this. this playing on our emotions again.

but let's take a look at our country these days. before 911 if I told you that your child was going to get groped by airport security you would be pissed. if I aid your wife was going to have her nude photos reviewed by airport security it would again be holy hell. now days? just part of the flight.

how about before 911 we talked about he government recording all of our phone calls and spying on us? i would have been to go get my tin hat. but now? NSA? turns out nope no need for a warrant because.... murica? idk.

how about the militarisation of our police force? remember when away was used to only go after the worst of the worst criminals? now days they are used for everything. you have speeding tickets? send in the mrap. you can thank the war on drugs for this one.

speaking of drugs. shall we talk about the cocaine explosion in the 80s? thanks cia. but we didn't hear much about that because we were too busy arguing about Clinton getting a blowjob. thanks media. you really did us a solid on that. so the cia funded coke trafficking just disappeared. how about now days? anyone ever thought about the explosion of heroin these days? guess what. looks like cia is at it again with Afghanistan this time.

but back to the shooting. i rhink all we have here is a guy who couldn't admit his own gay tendencies and went crazy fighting his owns demons until he went on a shooting spree. not the first time we have seen this from religious people.

but 50 people are dead. I'm sure we will have more gun debates in the near future.

Bingo, the people that go way past being against something always turn out to be hiding some secrets. The overly anti-gay politician that got caught playing footsie in the airport stall trying to pickup men. The 19 kids and counting people, very anti-gay, but one of their sons used to bad touch several of his sisters. Anti-prostitution AG and Governor of NY, Eliot Spitzer rumored to have spent over $80k on hookers in a few year period.

RIP to the victims

[The Black Knight]

See I see something more sinister to this guys. Aurora, Newtown, Ft. Hood, Boston, Oregon, Paris, Colorado Springs, San Bernadino and now Orlando. With the exception to Ft. Hood(where a 5.7 was used) and Boston(bombing), the weapon of choice(or should I say the weapon with the most the focus) is the AR15. What weapon almost always comes up in gun control debates?? No one really cares about pistols or shotguns. It's the "assault rifle" that they assume the AR15 is. The AR15 is not an Assault Rifle, it's an M4 civilian variant(that's neither here nor there).

Look at how we had our rights restricted with the 15rd magazine law for Colorado. It affects primarily?? AR15's....

What I'm saying is that more and more of the attacks are happening and they are increasing in severity. Sooner, rather than later people are finally going to give in and cry to the powers that be to do something about these so called "assault weapons". Sooner, rather than later people are finally going to relinquish their freedoms and liberties for a temporal and fleeting period of safety. Not knowing that the wolf will always be at the door ready and willing to strike upon its helpless prey.

This is the agenda that's in place. They(powers that be) are driving a wedge into this country and dividing us on our liberties and freedoms. People now more than ever are willing to give up their freedoms in the hope that someone, anyone, will protect them and keep them safe. People are so scared of their own shadow, that they want a 24/7 nanny state to protect them from the very things that haunt them in their dreams.

This country is falling apart and these shootings are orchestrated. By who?? Don't know, I call them the powers that be. I call them the ones that control the things behind the scenes. They're the puppet masters of the world and they're pushing a world wide agenda.

I think the fact that this hit a gay bar was done to focus on the LGBT community whom for the most part are "progressive" and will be a likely ally in an all out cry for more and more gun control.

You people have to look at this from an outside view. Look at the big picture of how this all falls together. They've hit schools, they've hit planned parenthood, they've hit theaters, now a gay club. Look at how whoever is behind all this is methodically lining people and their feelings/emotions up.

It may look like I'm spinning some conspiracy theory but that's exactly what I think is going on. It just doesn't add up to be random in my eyes.

[#1Townie]

See I see something more sinister to this guys. Aurora, Newtown, Ft. Hood, Boston, Oregon, Paris, Colorado Springs, San Bernadino and now Orlando. With the exception to Ft. Hood(where a 5.7 was used) and Boston(bombing), the weapon of choice(or should I say the weapon with the most the focus) is the AR15. What weapon almost always comes up in gun control debates?? No one really cares about pistols or shotguns. It's the "assault rifle" that they assume the AR15 is. The AR15 is not an Assault Rifle, it's an M4 civilian variant(that's neither here nor there).

Look at how we had our rights restricted with the 15rd magazine law for Colorado. It affects primarily?? AR15's....

What I'm saying is that more and more of the attacks are happening and they are increasing in severity. Sooner, rather than later people are finally going to give in and cry to the powers that be to do something about these so called "assault weapons". Sooner, rather than later people are finally going to relinquish their freedoms and liberties for a temporal and fleeting period of safety. Not knowing that the wolf will always be at the door ready and willing to strike upon it's helpless prey.

This is the agenda that's in place. They(powers that be) are driving a wedge into this country and dividing us on our liberties and freedoms. People now more than ever are willing to give up their freedoms in the hope that someone, anyone, will protect them and keep them safe. People are so scared of their own shadow, that they want a 24/7 nanny state to protect them from the very things that haunt them in their dreams.

This country is falling apart and these shootings are orchestrated. By who?? Don't know, I call them the powers that be. I call them the ones that control the things behind the scenes. They're the puppet masters of the world and they're pushing a world wide agenda.

I think the fact that this hit a gay bar was done to focus on the LGBT community whom for the most part are "progressive" and will be a likely ally in an all out cry for more and more gun control.

You people have to look at this from an outside view. Look at the big picture of how this all falls together. They've hit schools, they've hit planned parenthood, they've hit theaters, now a gay club. Look at how whoever is behind all this is methodically lining people and their feelings/emotions up.

It may look like I'm spinning some conspiracy theory but that's exactly what I think is going on. It just doesn't add up to be random in my eyes.

I agree to disagree with you. to be fair the shootings that take place most of the time are people with mental illness that want to make headlines. its why they choose schools. even in the Florida shooting we hear a mother screaming about they are killing our children. the child she is speaking of is a 32 year old man. but that makes headlines because people hear child and emotions run.

while most of the sick bastards don't actually target kids look at the one time someone did. we made him famous in minutes. our country debated over this evil for months. he got exactly what he wanted. fame.


I will agree that politicians use these events to further party goals but i just don't see it being created by the government. many reasons can be taken into account for why the ar15 is the weapon of choice.

the ar15 is in the news so often and feared so heavily by some Americans that the mere sight of it will make some people freeze. it is a good killing weapon. its why our military still uses it. yes I know the civilian one and the military one is different. but not by much. select fire and barrel lengths. thats really the only difference.

next up is cost of the weapon. you can pick one up for a grand. the ammo is cheap. magazines are also cheap. with just 2k invested you can be pretty heavily armed.

what other choices would a mass shooter have? ak47? sure. but with loaded magazines its pretty heavy and will still run you about he same as an ar. how about a scar or ar15? those rounds are much more expensive and also weigh more. recoil is much different. harder to get back on target after each shot.

so yeah the ar comes in at a top choice for these shooters. its popularity, the price and the fact it's an easy rifle to use. thank God these guys don't actually know firearms.


could you imagine the body counts we would face if these nut jobs starting using the proper weapons for these situations? the death toll would be in the hundreds.

nah man to be fair we got some copy cats that try to create as much drama as Columbine but most come up short. they are either too incompetent to fully achieve their goals or puss out in the middle. usually killing themselves. sometimes we get one stopped before it even gets started. but you won't see that in the news because it goes against the guns are bad thing.

nah man the reason why the government doesn't need to make these things happen is because they know there will be another one down the road they can use to grab headlines. that would be like watering your lawn when you see thunder clouds coming.


now the the part I will give you is the fact that our politicians ignore mental health and jump straight to gun bans. thats a serious problem we have here in America. our willingness to deal with mental is just a shame.

as to what Colorado politicians did. thats on each and everyone of you. those are your representatives and should be handled accordingly. I would have voted for everyone of them to be out. but not my state. not my problem.

if we really want change we need to change the way we allow these people run our government. that change isn't going to be by the president. at the end of the day that's just one man. its the party behind that man that runs things. time to start cleaning house.


as to the shooting. its sad. the body count is outrageous. the police should be ashamed. while people were bleeding to death the cops didn't act. hours upon hours worth of waiting is unacceptable when you have people bleeding out.

damn sorry about random rants. lol. so much wrong. so little time.

[JKOL]

I think the AR15 is the popular choice because of the media gives it so much attention. They make it out to be some kind of ultimate killing machine to the point that even someone that has never seen a gun, can remember it's name. So when someone unfamiliar with guns wants to go on a rampage, what is in their head? AR15, that's all they know. They don't know a revolver from a shotgun, but they do know AR15, high capacity magazine, and it has worked in previous killings.

[Aaron]

how about the militarisation of our police force? remember when away was used to only go after the worst of the worst criminals? now days they are used for everything. you have speeding tickets? send in the mrap. you can thank the war on drugs for this one.

as to the shooting. its sad. the body count is outrageous. the police should be ashamed. while people were bleeding to death the cops didn't act. hours upon hours worth of waiting is unacceptable when you have people bleeding out.

Does anyone else see the irony?

So I'm supposed to rush in against a guy with an AR15, with a Level 2 vest a .22 revolver? Or do I at least get a 38 Special?

[Bueller]

.It may look like I'm spinning some conspiracy theory but that's exactly what I think is going on. It just doesn't add up to be random in my eyes.I agree with you pretty much 100% Too many unanswered questions and outrages political passes. It has evolved from a conspiracy theory to a conspiracy probability.

[Bueller]

Does anyone else see the irony?So I'm supposed to rush in against a guy with an AR15, with a Level 2 vest a .22 revolver? Or do I at least get a 38 Special?You didn't get issued one of the bayonets? :)

[koop]

I'm stunned.

Stunned that Black Knight posted crazy not once but twice and then edited for typos both times.

Typos? Your major concern was that people would think you're a bad speller?

[The Black Knight]

I'm stunned.

Stunned that Black Knight posted crazy not once but twice and then edited for typos both times.

Typos? Your major concern was that people would think you're a bad speller?

Yes I had a few typos. Had to correct for bad spelling.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I couldn't care less what others think of me. If people think I'm posting a crazy view, then so be it. It's my point of view, it's how I'm seeing things unfold in the world right now. If you don't believe there are puppet masters in the world then you might be a little blind in how the world is working right now. To me it's just all too coincidental, too perfect for it to be random. To each their own in life....

[#1Townie]

Does anyone else see the irony?

So I'm supposed to rush in against a guy with an AR15, with a Level 2 vest a .22 revolver? Or do I at least get a 38 Special?

so you are saying you don't have an ar15 in your car? hell even the daredevil's have ar15s on their bikes now.

but while we are at it. this post right here ladies and gentlemen is why we don't need more restrictions on guns. when it comes down to it you are on your own.

so Aaron you think three hours was a reasonable time in executing an attack plan? while people are bleeding out? while a mad gunman has his way with innocent people?

if I'm expected to turn over the ways I choose to defend myself to law enforcement then things like this really need to be rethought.

I know being a cop is a dangerous job but man when people depend on you to go that extra mile to save them waiting three hours is a long time to wait to act.

I know not all situations are the same but come on. three hours? 100 officers? the police failed those people.

[Aaron]

so you are saying you don't have an ar15 in your car? hell even the daredevil's have ar15s on their bikes now.

but while we are at it. this post right here ladies and gentlemen is why we don't need more restrictions on guns. when it comes down to it you are on your own.

so Aaron you think three hours was a reasonable time in executing an attack plan? while people are bleeding out? while a mad gunman has his way with innocent people?

if I'm expected to turn over the ways I choose to defend myself to law enforcement then things like this really need to be rethought.

I know being a cop is a dangerous job but man when people depend on you to go that extra mile to save them waiting three hours is a long time to wait to act.

I know not all situations are the same but come on. three hours? 100 officers? the police failed those people.

I have an AR15 yes, with 90 rounds. So in terms of weapons, I'm at best equal, and more likely still outgunned. Most of these folks come more heavily armed, with more ammo, and more weapons. I have 2 guns with a max of 148 rounds. He still has every other advantage.

It's hard for me to say, I wasn't there, I'm not going to judge the cops on what they did. But in active shooter events, we enter right away. First unit on scene enters immediately, and goes hunting for bad guy(s). Additional units enter, and hunt. My attack plan as first on scene is neutralizing the gunman, and I made that plan several years ago, as did every other Officer I work with. We do not wait for SWAT or anything like that, which is why your military comment is so ignorant. I have a tactical vest that carries 2 rifle mags, basic medical gear, hard trauma plates, and the rifle. That's it. No MRAP, no helmet, no full auto M16, and certainly no night vision.

Our training isn't the best, I'll be the first to say it, but in terms of an active shooter I feel well-prepared. We do train on that, and fairly frequently. Rest-assured, if there's an active shooter in my city, you won't ever see the SWAT team, it'll be over before we could even page them.

[#1Townie]

I have an AR15 yes, with 90 rounds. So in terms of weapons, I'm at best equal, and more likely still outgunned. Most of these folks come more heavily armed, with more ammo, and more weapons. I have 2 guns with a max of 148 rounds. He still has every other advantage.

It's hard for me to say, I wasn't there, I'm not going to judge the cops on what they did. But in active shooter events, we enter right away. First unit on scene enters immediately, and goes hunting for bad guy(s). Additional units enter, and hunt. My attack plan as first on scene is neutralizing the gunman, and I made that plan several years ago, as did every other Officer I work with. We do not wait for SWAT or anything like that, which is why your military comment is so ignorant. I have a tactical vest that carries 2 rifle mags, basic medical gear, hard trauma plates, and the rifle. That's it. No MRAP, no helmet, no full auto M16, and certainly no night vision.

Our training isn't the best, I'll be the first to say it, but in terms of an active shooter I feel well-prepared. We do train on that, and fairly frequently. Rest-assured, if there's an active shooter in my city, you won't ever see the SWAT team, it'll be over before we could even page them.

hahaha ignorant? wooooooow. so care to tell me why swat units are being used to conduct minor search warrants? also love it when teams enter the wrong house and kill innocent people. thats impressive.

don't take this stuff so personal. i never said you were a disgrace. i never said anything about you. actually I think you are a good cop who does hold himself accountable. one I think would end a situation long before the three hour mark. i think most cops would.

I'm sure there was cops there being held back from doing their job. I don't think we can truly sit here and see record number of bodies with a very slow to act response as a coincidence.

maybe there was more involved. true I wasnt there but if that was family members of mine I would be demanding answers.


i hate these active shooters. i hate everything about them. the senseless killing. the media coverage. the politics. most of all. i hate when these fuckers get to go grandstand in our courts. due process is great but it does get abused sometimes.

bro I truly hope you never have to respond to a situation like this. truly. there is a level of evil out there I hope no one has to meet.

[j0ker]

This tragedy is one of the reasons I fully believe in open carry everywhere..... Things would have been a little different if say 1% of that club was armed too.

[bulldog]

This tragedy is one of the reasons I fully believe in open carry everywhere..... Things would have been a little different if say 1% of that club was armed too. Are people allowed to conceal carry and drink alcohol though? That would be my issue on guns in clubs...the drunk dude with his gun :dunno:

[#1Townie]

Are people allowed to conceal carry and drink alcohol though? That would be my issue on guns in clubs...the drunk dude with his gun :dunno:

no you can not be drunk and in possession of a firearm.

[JKOL]

Are people allowed to conceal carry and drink alcohol though? That would be my issue on guns in clubs...the drunk dude with his gun :dunno:

That is one of the things they went over in my CCW class, can't have alcohol in your system and carry. I imagine most states are the same. Even if you aren't concealed carrying, you can't have a firearm in your possession with alcohol in your system.

[j0ker]

Start up the designated driver/carrier system.

[bulldog]

no you can not be drunk and in possession of a firearm.

That is one of the things they went over in my CCW class, can't have alcohol in your system and carry. I imagine most states are the same. Even if you aren't concealed carrying, you can't have a firearm in your possession with alcohol in your system.
That is what I figured. My worry would be that this is obviously all on the “honor system” (not like gun registers BAC and stops working), so we risk people actually carrying when they do drink. Since we all know alcohol impairs or judgement I’d be fearful allowing clubs/bars to allow firearms could end up being a bad decision….I know I’ve made bad decisions I regretted while drinking that I would never have done sober.



Start up the designated driver/carrier system.
I guess the issue there is would this override the clubs/bar rule of no firearms? If so we are back to the “honor system” of trusting people are not lying. Then if a club won’t allow it, does this start the entire “constitutional right” argument since a person has a legal permit.

Personally I do not mind when I go to a club or a concert and I see they are running people through metal detectors as this mainly catches the people trying to sneak in weapons….the concealed weapon people I’d assume are fine too since the entire reason to conceal carry is to protect against others that have a gun.

[JKOL]

For me, I will not carry anywhere there is excessive alcohol consumption. With alcohol comes "likes to fight tough guys" and that attitude combined with a sober CCW is a recipe for a bad situation. Plus, the only way it is tolerable to be around drunk people is to be drunk yourself, otherwise it is an exercise in patience and clock watching just waiting for the night to end.

[#1Townie]

That is what I figured. My worry would be that this is obviously all on the “honor system” (not like gun registers BAC and stops working), so we risk people actually carrying when they do drink. Since we all know alcohol impairs or judgement I’d be fearful allowing clubs/bars to allow firearms could end up being a bad decision….I know I’ve made bad decisions I regretted while drinking that I would never have done sober.



I guess the issue there is would this override the clubs/bar rule of no firearms? If so we are back to the “honor system” of trusting people are not lying. Then if a club won’t allow it, does this start the entire “constitutional right” argument since a person has a legal permit.

Personally I do not mind when I go to a club or a concert and I see they are running people through metal detectors as this mainly catches the people trying to sneak in weapons….the concealed weapon people I’d assume are fine too since the entire reason to conceal carry is to protect against others that have a gun.

so what's your idea with it all? how do you keep people safe?

[Zanatos]

I have to play Devil's advocate her for a second.

There were 320 people in the club, so if 1% of them were armed, that would put four shooters (including the gunman) in a very crowded place. Unless one of the three "defenders" was able to take out the shooter before the police got there - it would be a royal cluster fuck. Then there is the liability issue. What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders? On the one hand, he's a hero for saving a bunch of people, but on the other hand, he could be sued for everything he's got, and he could even be charged with negligent homicide. Or -- he might even get himself accidentally killed by responding police. How are the cops supposed to know he's a good guy trying to take out the shooter? And it's not like the police are going to waltz in and say, "Everyone put down your guns." They are going to neutralize shooters. That's what they are focused on. (And once the shooting begins, how are the three good guys supposed to know whether there is more than one killer? Who is hostile and who is an ally? How do you tell in the heat of a firefight?)

This is the kind of situation that makes a good case for mandatory training of all CCW permit holders. By carrying a weapon, they are not just defending themselves. They might also be forced into a situation where they serve as de facto police augmentees.

The reason I bring all of this up is because a lot of people seem to imagine concealed carry as a simple matter. If something bad goes down, they're ready to use deadly force. It's their constitutional right. But the reality of a shooting situation is almost always complicated. It's not like the movies where Dirty Harry pulls out his .45 blows away the bad guy and cracks a cool remark.

[Nolan]

320 people in the club and nobody tackled this guy? Guns or not we can do more to not be sheep. Maybe?

[Zanatos]

From the news reports, it sounds like he was blasting everything in sight as fast as possible. He also might have positioned himself in a doorway or corner where it would be almost impossible to lay hands on him without dying.

[bulldog]

so what's your idea with it all? how do you keep people safe?
I don’t have a solution…bottom line is nobody is really safe anywhere nowadays because no matter what is done, if someone really wants to kill, they most likely will find a way. Take guns away, and they will use a bomb. Takes explosives away and someone will use poison….take all weapons away they will hijack an airplane……and so on. Bottom line is humans are just violent people and this is nothing that has changed….we just hear more about it with the media now, but for many centuries humans have done very barbaric things…..holocaust, atomic bombs, biologic weapons, etc.

As for clubs/bars/concerts, I do think they metal detectors is one step to help this out because with those it becomes very difficult for a person to get in armed…for most part. Yet again, if someone really has a will, it will most likely still happen.


I have to play Devil's advocate her for a second.

There were 320 people in the club, so if 1% of them were armed, that would put four shooters (including the gunman) in a very crowded place. Unless one of the three "defenders" was able to take out the shooter before the police got there - it would be a royal cluster fuck. Then there is the liability issue. What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders? On the one hand, he's a hero for saving a bunch of people, but on the other hand, he could be sued for everything he's got, and he could even be charged with negligent homicide. Or -- he might even get himself accidentally killed by responding police. How are the cops supposed to know he's a good guy trying to take out the shooter? And it's not like the police are going to waltz in and say, "Everyone put down your guns." They are going to neutralize shooters. That's what they are focused on. (And once the shooting begins, how are the three good guys supposed to know whether there is more than one killer? Who is hostile and who is an ally? How do you tell in the heat of a firefight?)

This is the kind of situation that makes a good case for mandatory training of all CCW permit holders. By carrying a weapon, they are not just defending themselves. They might also be forced into a situation where they serve as de facto police augmentees. I agree with you and have argued this same point when the Aurora theatre shooting occurred; nobody knows the “good guy” shooting is trying to help and could cause more panic. Like in the theatre shooting: what happened if someone in the back was a good guy and pulled out his weapon…..would victims know he was not part of the assault! Would it have caused many that ran out the back to veer to the front and get shot by the real killer resulting on more deaths. In a situation that is like this, it is easy to say what could have been done, but in the heat of things, it gets way harder.

Yeah exactly and then what happens when the good guy misses and shoots someone else! Would that family really be like “oh no big deal, we know you were trying to help”….maybe, but most are going to sue the crap out of the “good guy” because all they know is that person shot and killed their loved one….then who knows if charges would be filled and the “good guy” gets locked up for years. Next, do we really blame the cops if they came in and shot the “good guy” thinking they were part of the killers :dunno:

[Nolan]

I haven't been watching the news much lately. Probably better that way anyway.

[#1Townie]

I have to play Devil's advocate her for a second.

There were 320 people in the club, so if 1% of them were armed, that would put four shooters (including the gunman) in a very crowded place. Unless one of the three "defenders" was able to take out the shooter before the police got there - it would be a royal cluster fuck. Then there is the liability issue. What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders? On the one hand, he's a hero for saving a bunch of people, but on the other hand, he could be sued for everything he's got, and he could even be charged with negligent homicide. Or -- he might even get himself accidentally killed by responding police. How are the cops supposed to know he's a good guy trying to take out the shooter? And it's not like the police are going to waltz in and say, "Everyone put down your guns." They are going to neutralize shooters. That's what they are focused on. (And once the shooting begins, how are the three good guys supposed to know whether there is more than one killer? Who is hostile and who is an ally? How do you tell in the heat of a firefight?)

This is the kind of situation that makes a good case for mandatory training of all CCW permit holders. By carrying a weapon, they are not just defending themselves. They might also be forced into a situation where they serve as de facto police augmentees.

The reason I bring all of this up is because a lot of people seem to imagine concealed carry as a simple matter. If something bad goes down, they're ready to use deadly force. It's their constitutional right. But the reality of a shooting situation is almost always complicated. It's not like the movies where Dirty Harry pulls out his .45 blows away the bad guy and cracks a cool remark.

you know I used to make this very same argument. problem is.... it has never happened. but you know what has happened.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/20/concealed-permit-holder-stops-attempted-mass-shooting-in-chicago/

[Zanatos]

There ARE protocols established for CCW permit holders to keep from killing innocent people or getting themselves killed. Unfortunately, since training is not required, almost nobody knows what to do.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/daniel-zimmerman/what-if-multiple-concealed-carriers-respond-to-a-shooting-incident/

As more and more people decide to exercise their Second Amendment rights, the likelihood of multiple concealed carriers being at an incident increases.

Also, many concealed carriers are not responsible, upstanding, and intelligent citizens. Since 2007, there have been at least 579 fatal, non-self defense incidents involving concealed carry permit holders nationwide, a number that likely represents a fraction of the actual total. (Violence Policy Center)

[#1Townie]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/10-potential-mass-shootings-that-were-stopped-by-someone-wit?utm_term=.du5jda9Ml#.vxeExYDaJ


here is some more. and yes most are off duty police but hey it's still a citizen with a gun.

[bulldog]

There ARE protocols established for CCW permit holders to keep from killing innocent people or getting themselves killed. Unfortunately, since training is not required, almost nobody knows what to do.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/daniel-zimmerman/what-if-multiple-concealed-carriers-respond-to-a-shooting-incident/

As more and more people decide to exercise their Second Amendment rights, the likelihood of multiple concealed carriers being at an incident increases.

Also, many concealed carriers are not responsible, upstanding, and intelligent citizens. Since 2007, there have been at least 579 fatal, non-self defense incidents involving concealed carry permit holders nationwide, a number that likely represents a fraction of the actual total. (Violence Policy Center)

Yeah, what is it now? Like a once day class? Heck it is more a joke now as I see Groupon offers these up for near nothing as if it is like learning to play the guitar. :lol:






I think Agent Smith in the Matrix movie got it right:

Agent Smith (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0915989/): I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

[#1Townie]

you guys can't make up what ifs. truth is these so called what if scenarios have never happened. but what has happened is that honest people with a firearm has stopped these shootings before they shooter got very far. in schools. in theaters. even in public squares. non of them turned into the wild west shootouts you see in movies. not a bunch of people got shot by the armed citizens.

it simply hasn't happened. it sounds great in your head. but truth is it hasn't happened. this tells me that the people who do carry and do try to stop these shooters are using their heads and no just blindly running down halls and into crowds blasting away like some Bruce Willis wannabe.

[bulldog]

you guys can't make up what ifs. truth is these so called what if scenarios have never happened. but what has happened is that honest people with a firearm has stopped these shootings before they shooter got very far. in schools. in theaters. even in public squares. non of them turned into the wild west shootouts you see in movies. not a bunch of people got shot by the armed citizens.

it simply hasn't happened. it sounds great in your head. but truth is it hasn't happened. this tells me that the people who do carry and do try to stop these shooters are using their heads and no just blindly running down halls and into crowds blasting away like some Bruce Willis wannabe. I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.

[Zanatos]

Update: Pulse had armed security, and there was an off-duty police officer who was carrying concealed and exchanged gunfire with the shooter before he barricaded himself in the bathroom with hostages.

Source (please ignore the political stuff): http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/06/13/trump-just-said-good-guy-gun-stopped/

[#1Townie]

I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.

ummm... your lack of knowledge on both these subjects is showing. its not that easy to get a ccw. and you have to prove you can use firearms. you don't just buy one and walk around the streets. open carry is like that but not ccw.

cdl is basically the same thing. but you can't really compare the two. you need no background checks for a cdl. you only need to be able to pass the tests. do a google search on cdl farms. ccw instructors take their training very seriously. they know that if they pass someone they shouldn't they will end up on the news.

just look at the guy who owned the gun shop in the Florida shooting. he did everything right but is now known as the guy who sold the guns that killed 49 people.

you never hear about where a driver for his license from. most people who take the time to get their ccw are the higher end of gun owners. who take it very seriously. who do shoot. even do shooting scenarios. and have to be more accurate than police officers. because unlike the police a ccw holder can't have collateral damage. they will be charged for shooting innocent people. unlike cops.

so really guys I couldn't be less concerned about ccw holders considering they are already held to a higher standard than our law enforcement.

[#1Townie]

Update: Pulse had armed security, and there was an off-duty police officer who was carrying concealed and exchanged gunfire with the shooter before he barricaded himself in the bathroom with hostages.

Source (please ignore the political stuff): http://occupydemocrats.com/2016/06/13/trump-just-said-good-guy-gun-stopped/


and did that person shoot tons of innocent people? thats your argument right?

[Zanatos]

Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

My point is that the "good guys with guns" didn't prevent the biggest mass shooting in American history.

[j0ker]

Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

My point is that the "good guys with guns" didn't prevent the biggest mass shooting in American history.

This time.... Who knows how many people those guys saved by acting.

[#1Townie]

What if one of the CCW holders were able to shoot the gunman, but accidentally hit a couple innocent bystanders?



Townie, I think you need a reading comprehension class.

e.

looks like my reading comprehension is just fine. your words. your talking points.

[#1Townie]

This time.... Who knows how many people those guys saved by acting.

they don't want to read the links I already posted about mass shootings being stopped by good guys with guns.

[The Black Knight]

I think we are both saying a CCW is a bigger responsibility than most people take it for and more training should be done so we can have experienced holders do the right thing in these situations.

Like Townie….I think how you and BK have told me how hard it is to have and maintain a CDL license. I assume because they understand how dangerous and giant vehicle could be in the wrong hands. Yet compare it to how easy it is to get and keep a CCW seems ridiculous.

FWIW, I think it should be noted that while you can compare CDL vs. CCW. The main difference is, one is a privilege and the other is a constitutional right. More specific in the broad terms of Driving vs. Right to keep and bear arms. One can be limited for a number of reasons, the other should not be tampered with according to the Bill of Rights.

I agree with Townie, most CCW's or CHP's tend to train more than the average shooter and average cop. I've said it before, but I have a relative that is former law enforcement of 28 years. He's told me on numerous occasions that when he was on the force, they only had to qualify twice a year. He told me most cops he knew didn't even shoot or practice other that during their qualifying. Now granted, some law enforcement shoot more than others. I'm sure now in the present Law Enforcement train more than they did in the past. Keep in mind my relative joined the force right out of Vietnam, so different times and different measures.

I will say this, I've yet to run across any law enforcement that shoot as much as I do. When I first obtained my CCW, I was shooting as much as 20,000rds a year, across all platforms of firearms. Now with the the prices of ammo higher than they used to be, and reloading components sometimes in short supply, I've dialed back the amount I shoot. I still get in around 5000 to 10000rds of practice shooting per year. Also FWIW, my instructor was also a competition shooter. He said it was not uncommon for him to close in on 100,000rds a year of shooting. Most competitions he'd do would eat up close to 1000rds just for one competition.

Practice does make perfect and shooting is a perishable talent. I can tell when I've been on the long guns too long and my pistol accuracy will suffer a bit. Doesn't take me but a hundred rounds to get back to the precision I normally shoot with. Vice versa, I can tell when I've been putting in a lot of pistol practice, because my long guns accuracy will be off. I usually shoot at least once, but in the warmer months twice a month.

Now with all that said Bulldog, I do feel more than confident in my abilities to shoot. I know that should any situation arise, I know I can handle it. The problem is, everyone paints CCW's as Rambo's or Die Hard wannabe's. That's not the case for most CCW's and I can surely tell you that's not the case with ME.

It's cold and callous but I can tell you it would take an extraordinary situation for me to step in and use my firearm. Meaning: it would mean that my "OWN" life is in danger and not someone else. Because I'll flat out tell you, I will not step in to save someone's life if there is a 1% chance that I could face legal repercussions in doing so. Unfortunately, their life isn't worth my Freedom. Way I look at it, is people die or get killed every day. It's not my problem or business to stop it or step it. If myself, my family or my friends are in imminent danger of serious bodily damage and/or death, then absolutely I'll step in and do my duty. I won't step in for a stranger, they can arm themselves the same as I am. It's not my job to save someone else.

So don't paint us all as hero's that ride into danger while everyone is fleeing it. The only time I'll step up to confront the wolf is when my life is in jeopardy. If there is an opportunity for me to leave a deadly situation without having to engage an active shooter, you can bet I'll use it.

I obtained my CCW to protect #1 and no one else......

[Zanatos]

I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.

[#1Townie]

I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.

oh I don't think you are going to win this argument. while yes you could argue this very low number of people killed. in the state of Colorado as of 2012 there was 30,000 concealed permit holders. thays some pretty good odds.

guessing you got your info from here.

http://addictinginfo.org/2015/10/26/concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-killing-people-but-not-in-self-defense/

but that's okay. let's just play by the numbers. now I'm curious where these numbers come from. as stats like this are so hard to come by. I could go to some pro gun sites that give their numbers but I'm also sceptical to those numbers.

we don't keep very good track record when it comes to firearms data. like we will never see real stats on how many people are shot by police by mistake. because that number is just not counted.

another number that is not counted is how many times a firearm is drawn but not used. that would be another interesting stat to bring to the table if we could. but we can't.

but yes on average there is 32,000 gun deaths. but wwe don't get a breakdown of those numbers. if you would like to throw numbers at me I will dance to that tune.

according to the Washington post the seemed to have figured out that there is roughly 357,000,000 guns in this country. let those numbers sink in just a bit. 32k in deaths. 357m guns.

but let's ignore that for a moment. you made a claim about a person stopping a mass shooter as rare. isn't a mass shooting rare to begin with? I mean they make up a small amount of shootings that we face. so the fact that there is any intervention really starts to raise the percentage that a "good guy with a gun" stops these things. making it not as rare as you would believe.

I think your problem is you hear the media always talking about shootings. for this I would like you to go back to my first couple of posts. don't let the media play with your emotions.

fact is with the amount guns we have in this country our shootings is still very low. the amount of concealed permit holders shooting innocent people is also very very low. statistically speaking.

but hey man even the pros make mistakes.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire.html

https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/11/utah-police-officer-shoots-innocent-bystander-after-getting-shot-by-suspected-car-thief/

http://nypost.com/2016/01/01/chicago-probes-police-shooting-that-killed-bystander/

just a couple. thats a large Google search. my point with that is mistakes happen. and yes there will be a certain number of people who will screw up. but if you take into account the number of people walking around with ccwp and compare them to your numbers over the course of almost ten years it would appear that the current training is more than adequate. unless you live in a fairytale and think that number should be zero.


when thinking about such an important thing like limiting the rights to someone to defend themselves we truly need to remove emotion from the thought process and address the situation as a whole.

we have been having to deal with these mass shootings for a long time and yet we are still talking about the tools and not the actual problem. mental health. but that's just something we are not willing to do.


while you may be sick of the nra talking points I'm sick of the counter to that. using numbers out of context. playing with people's emotions. we as a society allowing our media to control our thought process by playing with our emotions. but that list could go on for a long time. just like the list of things that has a greater chance of killing you than a gun.

you say it's time for gun owners to open our minds. I m sitting here looking at things as whole. I just shot yesterday. pistol and rifle. bolt and semiautomatic. I fire my firearms several times a month.

so who has the closed mind? is it really the gun nuts?

[The Black Knight]

I looked at the story you posted about the case where a good guy was able to prevent a mass shooting - but what does that have to do with anything? It's a very rare occurrence, not a common one.

Should I post some of the stories from the 579 deaths caused by concealed carriers who were not using their firearms in self-defense?

It's time for gun enthusiasts to open their minds a tiny crack and begin to consider the idea that it's a damned good idea for firearms owners to be trained how to properly use their weapons in a responsible manner, and to learn enough about police procedures and tactics that they don't end up getting themselves killed, killing innocent bystanders, other "good guys with guns," or responding cops/security personnel.

The argument of, "You got a problem? Get a gun" has become old and tired, and a majority of Americans are sick of mass shootings and support SOME kind of gun reforms aimed at reducing these incidents.

I'm sick of the old, trite NRA talking points like, "A good guy with a gun is the only defense against a bad guy with a gun." It's basically true - but only after the bad guy gets a gun. Preventing that is the part I'm pretty sure that America can improve upon.

Americans have simply accepted an average of 32,000 gun deaths a year for far too long. It's time for a dialogue, and time for the NRA to stop shutting down the conversation.

579 deaths caused by concealed carry holders, is a small if not minuscule percentage of people with conceal carry. Just for statistics Colorado had roughly 140,000 CCW holders in 2012. That's just one state.

I suggest you go here for statistics country wide: http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm

So as you can see from the statistics from all the states. 579 incidents does not make a pattern. It makes for dumbass people who shouldn't own a firearm let alone have their permit. People can change, I'm sure when the obtained their CCW's they were good people. Some people change and they do bad things. Can't use that statistic to force an issue that CCW's wouldn't help a situation if they were there.

So 579 people screwed up. The millions of CCW holders across the nation have not. You're painting CCW holders in the same light that anti-gun people paint law abiding gun owners in. Just because someone uses a gun for evil, doesn't mean the millions upon millions of gun owners will do the same. Just because someone uses an AR15 to slaughter innocent people, doesn't give way to the idea that we should restrict the use or purchase of this weapon by the millions of law abiding citizens.

I've yet to come home and stumbled upon my guns embroiled in a no holds barred Mortal Kombat in my gun safe. It just doesn't happen. You may say it's old and tired but the statement rings true. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." People will find a way to murder regardless of the tool. Cain killed Abel with his bare hands. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Saying that the NRA and pro-gun owners aren't in favor of people getting trained doesn't make sense. I don't know anyone of my pro-gun family or friends that aren't in favor of people getting more and more training with firearms.

You want to help curb these kinds of incidents from happening?? Then we need "HARSH" penalties for committing these kinds of crimes. Penalty upon death, not jail time. People need to be prosecuted quickly, and not drag the trials out for years. Know how I would punish these people?? I'd give them due process and right to a speedy trial and then HANG!! them in public in front of the courthouse where they were tried. Believe me, if we had public gallows where murders, rapist, pedophiles were hanged in front of their peers. I'd be willing to bet, we'd see a massive downturn in crime. If the punishment fit the crime, we'd see people not committing these kinds of crimes.

It's not about legislating guns away from people. It's about punishing them severely when they break the law!!

I don't break the law, so I don't want to be denied owning the weapons that I choose to own. It's not my fault, nor the fault of millions of responsible gun owners for those who abuse the weapons they obtain.

Banning guns.... check that, sensible gun control means attacking the problem on the wrong end. It's the equivalent to pissing on a forest fire. It doesn't work and it doesn't stop EVIL people from obtaining weapons. How you going to crack down on the entire BLACK MARKET??? We have US Black Markets, and Foreign Black Markets. Shut down one and 5 more will spring up in it's place.

Taking away the tool does nothing. Punishment, severe punishment is what will stop this kind of behavior....

[Wrider]

Personally I love when people bring up the 32K gun deaths per year as a trope for how bad this imagined gun problem is.

32K is approximately .01% of the population. As in 1 out of 10,000 people. Now take into account that 60% of those are self-selective. That comes out to 12,800 as involuntarily killed via firearms. Another 1200 of those are by police. We're at 11,600.

Now we have the FBI's definition of justifiable homicide. There's another 742 gone from those numbers, so for ease of math we'll say 700, and our numbers go to 10,900.

That comes out to a chance of 0.003% of being killed by a firearm that is not self inflicted. That's 1 in 29,358 for those keeping track at home.

Now we take into account cities with serious gang problems and gun control solutions. I'll just use Chicago, LA, Washington, DC, and we'll throw in NYC for good measure. All of those are the most restrictive cities in the country when it comes to firearms.

Chicago: 445
LA: 675
DC: 119
NYC: 135

Just in those 4 cities we have a total of 1,375 people. And considering that owning/carrying a firearm is essentially illegal in those 4 cities, we can assume all were done via illegal firearms owned and used by people who should not have them in the first place.

So just there we have 12.6% of the problem. Just in those 4 cities. Those cities take up 4.9% of the population. Over 10% of the problem, under 5% of the population.

And that 0.003% even includes those 4 cities! Imagine what the numbers would be if we took out those 4 cities, or if we got really restrictive and took out cities like Baltimore, Newark, New Orleans, Detroit, etc?

So right now we're at a 1 in 30K chance of being killed involuntarily by a firearm.

Now how about we take a look at how often firearms are used for self defense? According to the most liberal, anti-gun survey I could find, it's estimated that people use firearms 50K times per year for self defense. Other estimates go up to 2.5 million times.

So 50K out of 320,000,000 brings us to .01% of the population using a firearm for self defense. Or 1 in 6400. Which means that a firearm is, even according to uber liberals, used for self defense 4.7 times for every time it is used to kill someone. Even when that someone is a thug who is killed by another thug.

Self defense 4.7 times, or killed 1 time? Personally I'll take self defense. YMMV.

[#1Townie]

Personally I love when people bring up the 32K gun deaths per year as a trope for how bad this imagined gun problem is.

32K is approximately .01% of the population. As in 1 out of 10,000 people. Now take into account that 60% of those are self-selective. That comes out to 12,800 as involuntarily killed via firearms. Another 1200 of those are by police. We're at 11,600.

Now we have the FBI's definition of justifiable homicide. There's another 742 gone from those numbers, so for ease of math we'll say 700, and our numbers go to 10,900.

That comes out to a chance of 0.003% of being killed by a firearm that is not self inflicted. That's 1 in 29,358 for those keeping track at home.

Now we take into account cities with serious gang problems and gun control solutions. I'll just use Chicago, LA, Washington, DC, and we'll throw in NYC for good measure. All of those are the most restrictive cities in the country when it comes to firearms.

Chicago: 445
LA: 675
DC: 119
NYC: 135

Just in those 4 cities we have a total of 1,375 people. And considering that owning/carrying a firearm is essentially illegal in those 4 cities, we can assume all were done via illegal firearms owned and used by people who should not have them in the first place.

So just there we have 12.6% of the problem. Just in those 4 cities. Those cities take up 4.9% of the population. Over 10% of the problem, under 5% of the population.

And that 0.003% even includes those 4 cities! Imagine what the numbers would be if we took out those 4 cities, or if we got really restrictive and took out cities like Baltimore, Newark, New Orleans, Detroit, etc?

So right now we're at a 1 in 30K chance of being killed involuntarily by a firearm.

Now how about we take a look at how often firearms are used for self defense? According to the most liberal, anti-gun survey I could find, it's estimated that people use firearms 50K times per year for self defense. Other estimates go up to 2.5 million times.

So 50K out of 320,000,000 brings us to .01% of the population using a firearm for self defense. Or 1 in 6400. Which means that a firearm is, even according to uber liberals, used for self defense 4.7 times for every time it is used to kill someone. Even when that someone is a thug who is killed by another thug.

Self defense 4.7 times, or killed 1 time? Personally I'll take self defense. YMMV.

nice post.

[salsashark]

All I know is that I'm picking up some extra 30-round magazines before I move out of SC...

[bulldog]

Wow…you guys wrote some novels last night….amazing (and a bit scary) how passionate you are about guns. I own a gun too, but dang...you guys are obsessed :lol: Especially considering I don’t see anyone on this thread that has said to ban guns or that it was the problem….just seems like you two right away go on the defensive; which has been posted at least 5 other times in other threads on this site by you guys.

Townie, you do not live in Colorado, so all I can think is you are not aware of how CCW permits have been a concern and many have stated the process is too easy and it is currently in process of trying to get changed. Here is a link to the Denver Post from just last month that addresses the issue: http://www.denverpost.com/2012/12/13/number-of-colorado-concealed-carry-gun-permits-skyrockets/

Couple quotes for you (from a credible Denver Post reporter…so go email Mr. Ryan Parker and don’t act like I wrote these) :lol:

“While the number of people seeking a concealed-carry permit for a gun in Colorado has skyrocketed, the ease with which some certification is done is coming under scrutiny, even by Second Amendment supporters.

In Colorado, certification for the permit can be as simple as watching an online video over a lunch hour and taking a free test. In surrounding states, it is not as simple.”

“The ease with which one can apply for certification in Colorado stands in contrast to the process required to gain a hunting license in this state. Gaining the right to hunt requires a minimum of 10 hours of classroom instruction, plus a written and shooting test must be administered, said Randy Hampton, spokesman for Colorado Parks and Wildlife.”

I only compared a CCW to a CDL because both of you stated how much a responsibility it is to have one and I feel a CCW is the same way; in the wrong hands both can be lethal (guns or a commercial vehicle). As stated I feel the process is too easy for a CCW…see link above or go to Groupon and read the comments “fast and easy process”.

Black Knight, I see how you stated how much training and practice you have done for your CCW and that is great; wish every CCW holder was that way, but that is not the case. The thing is a CCW holder can be the best shot in the world, but that does not mean a person will know they are the “good guy” so it could cause confusion…..all I ever said. Personally if I do not see a person firing in a police uniform or a security guard uniform I am going to assume they are the bad guy and not here to help….I don’t get why that may be a concern. Way back in 2012 the number of CCW permits was about 140K issued (way more now as it has skyrocketed.. again see link above). So that is 140K+ people that must be trusted to have the same responsibility as a CCW as you…I just don’t see it happening with those type of numbers.

Anyways to stay on topic, you two do know the Florida shooter did pass all the necessary background checks to obtain a gun and did hold a Class D Security Guard license that allowed him to legally carry 2 firearms? He did over 28hrs of training, so this shows not all CCW holder are mentally stable people…especially because we are now hearing reports how this shooter was reported by people close to him and he was still able to buy a gun.
Last, reports show there were two CCW holders in the club, so that option was used and seemed to not have helped much. Maybe it did or maybe it made things worse (hostages), but overall they were no match for the shooters AR-15 when they had handguns.

Again I am not here saying guns were to blame because I feel it comes down to humans and we are violent people (look at our past). I am not saying CCW is the answer or should be stopped. I simply was stating I could see Zantos argument that it could cause more confusion with people having a CCW and pulling it out at the times. At same time I agree a CCW holder has saved people before….sheesh calm down guys as nobody is trying to take away your rights

[#1Townie]

Wow…you guys wrote some novels last night….amazing (and a bit scary) how passionate you are about guns. I own a gun too, but dang...you guys are obsessed :lol: Especially considering I don’t see anyone on this thread that has said to ban guns or that it was the problem….just seems like you two right away go on the defensive; which has been posted at least 5 other times in other threads on this site by you guys.

Townie, you do not live in Colorado, so all I can think is you are not aware of how CCW permits have been a concern and many have stated the process is too easy and it is currently in process of trying to get changed. Here is a link to the Denver Post from just last month that addresses the issue: http://www.denverpost.com/2012/12/13/number-of-colorado-concealed-carry-gun-permits-skyrockets/

Couple quotes for you (from a credible Denver Post reporter…so go email Mr. Ryan Parker and don’t act like I wrote these) :lol:

“While the number of people seeking a concealed-carry permit for a gun in Colorado has skyrocketed, the ease with which some certification is done is coming under scrutiny, even by Second Amendment supporters.

In Colorado, certification for the permit can be as simple as watching an online video over a lunch hour and taking a free test. In surrounding states, it is not as simple.”

“The ease with which one can apply for certification in Colorado stands in contrast to the process required to gain a hunting license in this state. Gaining the right to hunt requires a minimum of 10 hours of classroom instruction, plus a written and shooting test must be administered, said Randy Hampton, spokesman for Colorado Parks and Wildlife.”

I only compared a CCW to a CDL because both of you stated how much a responsibility it is to have one and I feel a CCW is the same way; in the wrong hands both can be lethal (guns or a commercial vehicle). As stated I feel the process is too easy for a CCW…see link above or go to Groupon and read the comments “fast and easy process”.

Black Knight, I see how you stated how much training and practice you have done for your CCW and that is great; wish every CCW holder was that way, but that is not the case. The thing is a CCW holder can be the best shot in the world, but that does not mean a person will know they are the “good guy” so it could cause confusion…..all I ever said. Personally if I do not see a person firing in a police uniform or a security guard uniform I am going to assume they are the bad guy and not here to help….I don’t get why that may be a concern. Way back in 2012 the number of CCW permits was about 140K issued (way more now as it has skyrocketed.. again see link above). So that is 140K+ people that must be trusted to have the same responsibility as a CCW as you…I just don’t see it happening with those type of numbers.

Anyways to stay on topic, you two do know the Florida shooter did pass all the necessary background checks to obtain a gun and did hold a Class D Security Guard license that allowed him to legally carry 2 firearms? He did over 28hrs of training, so this shows not all CCW holder are mentally stable people…especially because we are now hearing reports how this shooter was reported by people close to him and he was still able to buy a gun.
Last, reports show there were two CCW holders in the club, so that option was used and seemed to not have helped much. Maybe it did or maybe it made things worse (hostages), but overall they were no match for the shooters AR-15 when they had handguns.

Again I am not here saying guns were to blame because I feel it comes down to humans and we are violent people (look at our past). I am not saying CCW is the answer or should be stopped. I simply was stating I could see Zantos argument that it could cause more confusion with people having a CCW and pulling it out at the times. At same time I agree a CCW holder has saved people before….sheesh calm down guys as nobody is trying to take away your rights

we are passionate about our rights because they are under attack. you act as if I never lived in Colorado. you also act as if your laws don't affect other people. after the great state of Colorado passed its last set of knee jerk reaction gun laws that has spread. now people are trying to use Colorado as an example. so it does affect me.

I'm not going back into cdl thing. I just don't see them comparable. maybe you do and that's fine.

your concern for ccw is in warranted. as the numbers given above prove. more sport bikes kill people every year so should we start to restrict the use of them as well? 2015 had an all time high. thats more lives lost to bikes than ccw mistakes.

see what you are doing is you are saying x=B because C is in such high numbers. problem with that and that has been stated before is people will to pay the extra money and take the extra time to get a ccw take it very seriously.

yes of course you will have mishaps and abuse. this can be said for everything. the fantasy that we will reach these numbers of zero is just evidence in how the media plays with our heads.

I don't approve laws because of emotion or feelings. laws are not the place to have emotions or feelings. far too often this leads to making honest citizens criminals.

see you end your post with no one is trying to take away your rights. I will bring up the frog in boiling water example. go watch a YouTube clip of it. that is what's happening with our rights. we give them away little by little. piece by piece. well some of us have had enough.


why should I sacrifice anymore of my liberties and abilities just to make someone else feel safer? when seconds count cops are just minutes away. why should I sacrifice the ability to protect myself and my loved ones because of some very low numbers?

really we don't have a gun problem in this country. gun violence is the lowest it has been in almost 30 years. why do you think it's so high? because the media told you it was.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/

you don't hear that on CNN now do you? haven't heard Obama talk about that one did ya? so why would I support anyone or anything that wants to focus on a problem that is de-escalating?

yes mass shootings is up but this is already covered. deal with the sickness not the tools. didn't see a massive demand to ban pressure cookers after Boston. why not? because that would be stupid!

funny thing is bro is i used to argue the same points you and zan do. I did. a few guys in here will confirm it. but after researching trying to prove my feelings and thoughts I came up empty. I actually couldn't find a single situation where a ccw made a mass shooting worse. not a one. found plenty that have stopped them. so logic told me there is another variable to this equation.

so I started reading more about ccw. I started to learn the heavy repercussions that a ccw holder faces when they screw up. now I understand why you see very few issues with them. they are law abiding citizens who do actually take it seriously.

[#1Townie]

and here is a fun little comparison.

http://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/france-suffered-more-casualties-murders-and-injuries-from-mass-public-shootings-in-2015-than-the-us-has-suffered-during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/

[bulldog]

we are passionate about our rights because they are under attack. you act as if I never lived in Colorado. you also act as if your laws don't affect other people. after the great state of Colorado passed its last set of knee jerk reaction gun laws that has spread. now people are trying to use Colorado as an example. so it does affect me.

I'm not going back into cdl thing. I just don't see them comparable. maybe you do and that's fine.

your concern for ccw is in warranted. as the numbers given above prove. more sport bikes kill people every year so should we start to restrict the use of them as well? 2015 had an all time high. thats more lives lost to bikes than ccw mistakes.

see what you are doing is you are saying x=B because C is in such high numbers. problem with that and that has been stated before is people will to pay the extra money and take the extra time to get a ccw take it very seriously.

yes of course you will have mishaps and abuse. this can be said for everything. the fantasy that we will reach these numbers of zero is just evidence in how the media plays with our heads.

I don't approve laws because of emotion or feelings. laws are not the place to have emotions or feelings. far too often this leads to making honest citizens criminals.

see you end your post with no one is trying to take away your rights. I will bring up the frog in boiling water example. go watch a YouTube clip of it. that is what's happening with our rights. we give them away little by little. piece by piece. well some of us have had enough.


why should I sacrifice anymore of my liberties and abilities just to make someone else feel safer? when seconds count cops are just minutes away. why should I sacrifice the ability to protect myself and my loved ones because of some very low numbers?

really we don't have a gun problem in this country. gun violence is the lowest it has been in almost 30 years. why do you think it's so high? because the media told you it was.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/

you don't hear that on CNN now do you? haven't heard Obama talk about that one did ya? so why would I support anyone or anything that wants to focus on a problem that is de-escalating?

yes mass shootings is up but this is already covered. deal with the sickness not the tools. didn't see a massive demand to ban pressure cookers after Boston. why not? because that would be stupid!

funny thing is bro is i used to argue the same points you and zan do. I did. a few guys in here will confirm it. but after researching trying to prove my feelings and thoughts I came up empty. I actually couldn't find a single situation where a ccw made a mass shooting worse. not a one. found plenty that have stopped them. so logic told me there is another variable to this equation.

so I started reading more about ccw. I started to learn the heavy repercussions that a ccw holder faces when they screw up. now I understand why you see very few issues with them. they are law abiding citizens who do actually take it seriously.

What are you even arguing man? You get all worked up over guns when nobody here has said crap about stopping them…again I am a gun owner too. I really feel you just like to argue…anyways, it gets us nowhere as been discussed so many times on this board, so why go over it again.


So can we get back on topic? This is about the Orlando shooting and not another gun right debate. New info show the guy was a security guard that went through the training you guys state. So how do you feel on that? Seems like he was reported to the FBI, but still was able to get a gun.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article83359697.html


I am also hearing reports that he went to this gay bar for over 3 years and had a gay dating profile. Kind of changes things up if this is true.
http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316



P.S. Townie, be honest and how do you feel about your boy BK’s statement that he is only out for himself???? I’ve seen you tear into people over this (guy who wouldn’t on door for bleeding guy) so why not now when it is your buddy? :dunno:

[#1Townie]

What are you even arguing man? You get all worked up over guns when nobody here has said crap about stopping them…again I am a gun owner too. I really feel you just like to argue…anyways, it gets us nowhere as been discussed so many times on this board, so why go over it again.


So can we get back on topic? This is about the Orlando shooting and not another gun right debate. New info show the guy was a security guard that went through the training you guys state. So how do you feel on that? Seems like he was reported to the FBI, but still was able to get a gun.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article83359697.html


I am also hearing reports that he went to this gay bar for over 3 years and had a gay dating profile. Kind of changes things up if this is true.
http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316



P.S. Townie, be honest and how do you feel about your boy BK’s statement that he is only out for himself???? I’ve seen you tear into people over this (guy who wouldn’t on door for bleeding guy) so why not now when it is your buddy? :dunno:


I didn't bring up the gun debate. i merely responded to it. so blame yourselves for that. I'm not arguing I am discussing. just because I don't agree with your points of view doesn't mean I'm having an argument. its a simple debate. I am bringing facts to my points. not emotions. but sure let's move on.

I'm not really sure what you want me to do here. first you tell me to stay on topic but then want me to go off topic? ummmm. okay? this seems like some bait but so be it.

In the last few years my willingness to help people has dropped a lot. yes I'm sure I would still open that door. I'm sure I would still face the threat if it shows up at my door. for me I guess it's different because that's how I am.

I have started to learn that just because I do what I do doesn't mean others have to live their life like I do. to be 100% honest with you I don't know bk any better than I know you. you are both just names on the internet that I have conversations with. sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. actually I know more about you than him.

when it comes to an active shooter situation I'm in the same boat as bk. if you are not a loved one of mine you are on your own. I am not Bruce Willis. I will do what I have to do to save my loved ones first and me second. period.

as for the Florida shooter and his ability to get these weapons. well. this is complicated. how do you stop a person who has a legal right to carry a firearm? do we now have to undergo some kind of screening process that would honestly say guys like you or I couldn't possess firearms? let's face it dude you are just as hot headed as I am. there is a very real argument that could be made that we are too unstable to possess firearms.

how do we stop this? honestly I don't think we can. we have 320 million people in this country. roughly 18% of that population suffers from a mental illness. thats a lot of people. so yes you will get guys who fall through the cracks.

basically the only way I see us truly achieving a zero number of murders or crimes against humanity is to lock us all up in a rubber room and let the robots run the world.

the odds are just against us.

but let me ask you something bro. why do you feel that dealing with firearms is the route to curb these situations? I have said before we have been lucky that one of these shooters didn't know shit about guns. now we have a man who was certainly trained in active shooter scenarios and was trained with firearms and this is the body count we get.

not really surprising really. it was also just a matter of time. its sad but we can't just ignore the rights of everyone because of a handful of nut jobs created a body count.

[bulldog]

I didn't being up the gun debate. i merely responded to it. so blame yourselves for that. I'm not arguing I am discussing. just because I don't agree with your points of view doesn't mean I'm having an argument. its a simple debate. I am bringing facts to my points. not emotions. but sure let's move on.

I'm not really sure what you want me to do here. first you tell me to stay on topic but then want me to go off topic? ummmm. okay? this seems like some bait but so be it.

I the last few years my willingness to help people has dropped a lot. yes I'm sure I would still open that door. I'm sure I would still face the threat if it shows up at more door. for me I guess it's different because that's how I am.

I have started to learn that just because I do what I o doesn't mean others have to live their life like I do. to be 100% honest with you I don't know bk any better than I know you. you re both just names on the internet that I have conversations with. sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. actually I know more about you than him.

when it comes to an active shooter situation I'm in the same boat as bk. if you are not a loved one of mine you re on your own. I am not Bruce Willis. I will do what I have to do to save my loved ones first and me second. period.

as for the Florida shooter and his ability to get these weapons. well. this is complicated. how do you stop a person who has a legal right to carry a firearm? do we now have to undergo so kind of screening process that would honestly say guys like you or I couldn't possess firearms? let's face it dude you are just as hot headed as I am. there is a very real argument that could be made that we are too unstable to possess firearms.

how do we stop this? honestly I don't think we can. we have 320 million people in this country. roughly 18% of that population suffers from a mental illness. thats a lot of people. so yes you will get guys who fall through the cracks.

basically the only way I see us from truly achieving a zero number of murders or crimes against humanity is to lock us all up in a rubber room and let the robots run the world.

the odds are just against us.

but let me ask you something bro. why do you feel that dealing with firearms is the route to curb these situations? I have said before we have been lucky that one of these shooters didn't know shit about guns. now we have a man who was certainly trained in active shooter scenarios was trained with firearms and this body count.

bot really surprising really. it was also just a matter of time. its sad but we can't just ignore the rights of everyone because of a handful of nut jobs.

Yeah man we agree…I don’t see a solution for it at all until humans just kill each other off. I don’t blame guns as I stated people will find a way to kill. I wish I had the answer, but to me this is part of life and it sucks to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I do not see a solution for it. We could try harsher penalties, but considering most of these shooters end up killing themselves or getting shot, I think they are aware they are going to be killed or get life in prison and don’t care. I know for sure guns in USA are not going away (we would have a Civil War first) so I know I’ve never said that was the answer.

Only thing I question is should we allow a CCW around alcohol because others have been upset this was a "no gun zone". I question alcohol and guns though as just sounds like trouble.

I got no solution man….shit happens and it has for many centuries.



I am tripping out it says he went to this gay club for years and had a gay dating profile as I figured this was about religion and getting back at homosexuality in the name of ISIS and religion. I know he called 911 the day before to swear his elegance to ISIS and they are very against homosexuality, so for him to be gay also is a new spin..

[#1Townie]

Yeah man we agree…I don’t see a solution for it at all until humans just kill each other off. I don’t blame guns as I stated people will find a way to kill. I wish I had the answer, but to me this is part of life and it sucks to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I do not see a solution for it. We could try harsher penalties, but considering most of these shooters end up killing themselves or getting shot, I think they are aware they are going to be killed or get life in prison and don’t care. I know for sure guns in USA are not going away (we would have a Civil War first) so I know I’ve never said that was the answer.

Only thing I question is should we allow a CCW around alcohol because others have been upset this was a "no gun zone". I question alcohol and guns though as just sounds like trouble.

I got no solution man….shit happens and it has for many centuries.



I am tripping out it says he went to this gay club for years and had a gay dating profile as I figured this was about religion and getting back at homosexuality in the name of ISIS and religion. I know he called 911 the day before to swear his elegance to ISIS and they are very against homosexuality, so for him to be gay also is a new spin..

well for the shooter I honestly think he struggled with his sexuality and went mad fighting his demons. this drove him crazy and he went on a rampage. killing who he blamed for his desires. probably has a dead lover out there somewhere too just haven't figured that out yet.

see I don't know about guns in the club. at least patrons. as what was stated earlier about being around drunks and having your gun. no thanks. but I think it's clear security failed. but how do you expect door bounces making maybe 12 bucks an hour to deal with something like this?

its just a sad day where evil prevailed. clubs. theatres. many other places are just shooting galleries.

its a shame he couldn't just accept who he was.

[#1Townie]

PS go read the part of my first post. i called that shit.

[JKOL]

well for the shooter I honestly think he struggled with his sexuality and went mad fighting his demons. this drove him crazy and he went on a rampage. killing who he blamed for his desires. probably has a dead lover out there somewhere too just haven't figured that out yet.

see I don't know about guns in the club. at least patrons. as what was stated earlier about being around drunks and having your gun. no thanks. but I think it's clear security failed. but how do you expect door bounces making maybe 12 bucks an hour to deal with something like this?

its just a sad day where evil prevailed. clubs. theatres. many other places are just shooting galleries.

its a shame he couldn't just accept who he was.

I think you are 100% right. ISIS was simply his excuse for killing gays because it deflected from what he couldn't admit about himself. His father had called him gay, and you don't have to be a world expert to know how homosexuality is treated in Afghanistan where his parents came from. The Taliban and ISIS have made videos about torturing gays. He was enraged by seeing two men kissing? That isn't a normal response and doesn't take a psychologist to figure out the anger came from hating himself for getting a tickle in his trousers when he saw men kissing, rage was the cover for his true feelings. He beat his wife for the same reason, his wife was a constant reminder that he wasn't attracted to women. The dude went to the gay club not once, or twice, but multiple times. That isn't scouting the location of a massacre, that was trolling for men and battling with his own sexuality.

[#1Townie]

how do we stop this? stop pretending that sick bastard isn't sick.


http://www.wftv.com/news/pulse-shooting/source-gunmans-wife-could-face-arrest-told-fbi-she-knew-about-orlando-mass-shooting-plan/342763558


hope she gets the death penalty.

[The Black Knight]

P.S. Townie, be honest and how do you feel about your boy BK’s statement that he is only out for himself???? I’ve seen you tear into people over this (guy who wouldn’t on door for bleeding guy) so why not now when it is your buddy? :dunno:

For real man? You're actually upset over my comments??

I can say honestly that I'd be willing to wager that 90% of CCW holders would tell you exactly the same thing that I declared in my comments. Everyone likes to paint CCW people in the "Rush Hour Rambo" league. We just aren't like that. Most people that I've met that are CCW's, are humble, quiet and very reserved people. They obtained their permits in order to protect themselves and their families. They didn't do it for glory, for prestige or status. Most people that are CCW are very quiet about their permits. In fact they won't tell you they have a permit, they just don't want people knowing they have one.

I'm the same way, not many people know I have one(in real life). I couldn't care less on here, I'm just a faceless person behind a screen name. There's a reason why people don't know a lot about me. Even Townie said it, you called him on the carpet about my comments but he even said, he knows more about you, than he does me.

In real life, I'm a quiet, calculated and reserved person. I like to study people and let them open their mouths and reveal things about their character. Myself, I let my actions speak for myself. One thing I've learned in life, is never tell anyone outside your own family what you're thinking. In public with people I don't know, I give the typical BS answers when pressed on the issues. I never let anyone know what I'm really thinking. Again, here online I will give a little bit more revealing answers but for the most part I keep my comments reined in. I usually comment on things that are already of public matter, and nothing private.




In the last few years my willingness to help people has dropped a lot. yes I'm sure I would still open that door. I'm sure I would still face the threat if it shows up at my door. for me I guess it's different because that's how I am.

I have started to learn that just because I do what I do doesn't mean others have to live their life like I do. to be 100% honest with you I don't know bk any better than I know you. you are both just names on the internet that I have conversations with. sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. actually I know more about you than him.

when it comes to an active shooter situation I'm in the same boat as bk. if you are not a loved one of mine you are on your own. I am not Bruce Willis. I will do what I have to do to save my loved ones first and me second. period.


See Bulldog, you got your answer right here with Townie. I'm the same, I have no problem helping someone truly in need. However, the older I get the less I'm inclined to trust people. I've never trusted people even when younger(just the way my Dad raised me). In this day and age however, I really don't trust people.

Townie said many of the same things that I've heard other CCW's say.

[bulldog]

For real man? You're actually upset over my comments??

I can say honestly that I'd be willing to wager that 90% of CCW holders would tell you exactly the same thing that I declared in my comments. Everyone likes to paint CCW people in the "Rush Hour Rambo" league. We just aren't like that. Most people that I've met that are CCW's, are humble, quiet and very reserved people. They obtained their permits in order to protect themselves and their families. They didn't do it for glory, for prestige or status. Most people that are CCW are very quiet about their permits. In fact they won't tell you they have a permit, they just don't want people knowing they have one.

I'm the same way, not many people know I have one(in real life). I couldn't care less on here, I'm just a faceless person behind a screen name. There's a reason why people don't know a lot about me. Even Townie said it, you called him on the carpet about my comments but he even said, he knows more about you, than he does me.

In real life, I'm a quiet, calculated and reserved person. I like to study people and let them open their mouths and reveal things about their character. Myself, I let my actions speak for myself. One thing I've learned in life, is never tell anyone outside your own family what you're thinking. In public with people I don't know, I give the typical BS answers when pressed on the issues. I never let anyone know what I'm really thinking. Again, here online I will give a little bit more revealing answers but for the most part I keep my comments reined in. I usually comment on things that are already of public matter, and nothing private.




See Bulldog, you got your answer right here with Townie. I'm the same, I have no problem helping someone truly in need. However, the older I get the less I'm inclined to trust people. I've never trusted people even when younger(just the way my Dad raised me). In this day and age however, I really don't trust people.

Townie said many of the same things that I've heard other CCW's say.
Nope, just been on this forum long enough to have seen Townie bash into others over that same thing...guy who wouldn't answer door, people who didn't help the person being robbed, people who are scared, and thought it was weird that he just lets some things go and that is why I commented on it; one of the reasons I always have respected Townie (even though we have argued many times) was because of his "caring" nature for others that I have seen that is similar to how I am.....so was kind of sad to see he has changed. I also commented on many other things (like no uniforms on a CCW), but same as Townie you guys pick and choose what to attack. I just don't get you two, so guess that is why you two get each other and have a lot of the same beliefs :dunno:

And see that is where you and I differ...you take this place as just you behind a screen name. That is fine, but for years CSC was way more than this and we were a tight group that really cared for each other; been in member's weddings, went to members bachelor parties in Vegas, watched members have a new kid, helped them move into their first house, joined softball with the team, went river rafting, cart racing, bought my first gun from a member (who taught me the proper way to shoot), camping trips, Epic Halloween parties, New Years parties, Bday parties...did I mention the parties :lol: .....the list goes on and on. I see you've been here since 2004, so maybe you were part of this group and I never realized, but you missed some good times and many strong friendships I still have today were because of this club. So it may work out for you to be the "screen name" guy, but to me I do care about others (some call it a downfall), but in the end I have proven myself to many people who I am proud to say would be able to say "That Nate is a good guy".

Last, my wife and family mean everything to me, so if I did see another person (even a stranger) in need I would help because I would hope someone did the same for my family. This is why my wife and I have done volunteer work and done many things for the elderly. So as you see, to each their own, but I would not change who I am either :)

[The Black Knight]

Nope, just been on this forum long enough to have seen Townie bash into others over that same thing...guy who wouldn't answer door, people who didn't help the person being robbed, people who are scared, and thought it was weird that he just lets some things go and that is why I commented on it; one of the reasons I always have respected Townie (even though we have argued many times) was because of his "caring" nature for others that I have seen that is similar to how I am.....so was kind of sad to see he has changed. I also commented on many other things (like no uniforms on a CCW), but same as Townie you guys pick and choose what to attack. I just don't get you two, so guess that is why you two get each other and have a lot of the same beliefs :dunno:

And see that is where you and I differ...you take this place as just you behind a screen name. That is fine, but for years CSC was way more than this and we were a tight group that really cared for each other; been in member's weddings, went to members bachelor parties in Vegas, watched members have a new kid, helped them move into their first house, joined softball with the team, went river rafting, cart racing, bought my first gun from a member (who taught me the proper way to shoot), camping trips, Epic Halloween parties, New Years parties, Bday parties...did I mention the parties :lol: .....the list goes on and on. I see you've been here since 2004, so maybe you were part of this group and I never realized, but you missed some good times and many strong friendships I still have today were because of this club. So it may work out for you to be the "screen name" guy, but to me I do care about others (some call it a downfall), but in the end I have proven myself to many people who I am proud to say would be able to say "That Nate is a good guy".

Last, my wife and family mean everything to me, so if I did see another person (even a stranger) in need I would help because I would hope someone did the same for my family. This is why my wife and I have done volunteer work and done many things for the elderly. So as you see, to each their own, but I would not change who I am either :)

The thing with Townie and myself is we share a common goal in protecting our liberties and freedoms and share a mutual respect for each other. Other than that, I doubt he and I share many beliefs. I'm an ultra conservative person and from what I know of Townie, he's not in that same vein as myself . But I respect him and his views, and have never troubled him over the way he believes(eventhough he is/was a Stunna, and I'm a knee dragging track junkie).

We are different, you and I. You are very extroverted and love the attention of friends and others. I'm very introverted, as stated I prefer to observe from the outside of a situation. I keep to myself and I have my own circle of friends that I've known for many years. Some people have many, many friends. Others not so many. Yeah, I have been around here since 2004 and only a select few on this board have ever met me. I was turned on to this site by someone long ago. I'm glad you've built friendships on here, lots of people do the same thing as you. You say I missed out on good times, but the fact is I was making good times elsewhere with my own friends. So I haven't missed out on anything.

So yes, I'll continue to be "screen name" guy. I know, I matter to those that matter to me and not the faceless screen names I've never met or ever will.

[Ezzzzy1]

Time to ban knives!

29 dead in China

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-26402367?SThisFB

[Wrider]

Wow…you guys wrote some novels last night….amazing (and a bit scary) how passionate you are about guns. I own a gun too, but dang...you guys are obsessed :lol:

You know how you're always going on and on about lifting and training and MMA? Same principles apply. Not saying it's a bad thing, just that this is our interest and that's yours.

[#1Townie]

http://m.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/gun_store_owner_says_he_tipped_fbi_off_about_20160 616

[The Black Knight]

http://m.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/gun_store_owner_says_he_tipped_fbi_off_about_20160 616

Hmmm, sure fits into that whole powers that be thing I was talking about. FBI tipped off? Nah don't worry it's all orchestrated anyway... :D

[#1Townie]

Hmmm, sure fits into that whole powers that be thing I was talking about. FBI tipped off? Nah don't worry it's all orchestrated anyway... :D

still not on board with ya with that but one could argue our government fails us too much to allow the citizens to take the blame for these things.

considering the same thing basically happened with the fort hood shooting. well that was more of a why PC is dangerous.

[Aphrodite]

Hello everyone :)

Some sayings to keep in mind on all cases to the Left and to the Right.

This saying in attributed to Lenin, but is unknown when "Useful idiots"

"Socialism is like a dream. Sooner or later you wake up to reality" Winston Churchill

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country" John F. Kennedy

“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference – they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.” – George Washington.

Keep in mind the Orlando shooting was a gun free zone. Omar Mateen swore allegiance to Islam on a 911 call as it all began.

I too found it odd that all of a sudden it becoming this big thing going on, especially here where I am in Saint Louis. Social Media is to blame IMO and is fueled by emotion that the media in general feeds the public. Is it attention, or is it a dedication to something they think that is bigger. I don't know, but everyone be careful out there. There are crazy's everywhere, especially in our government, everyone seems to have forgotten what it is to be responsible and human.