Help me diagnose a problem!

[EVO8]

I've got an 2000 Yamaha YZF R1. I bought it used from a member here. Lately, it's making a knocking noise. It's not an engine knocking noise. It only makes this noise when I'm comming to a stop.
Let me try to explain this..... When comming to a stop, I pull in the clutch and down shift the gears to first. As the clutch is pulled and down shifting, it seems the engine sprocket still wants to go foward. It feels like the engine sprocket is turning forward then backward then forward and so on, causing the bike to lung forward, making a loud knocking noise. This happens all the way till I stop, once I'm completely stopped, this goes away. It doesn't feel like the bike wants to lung forward anymore.
The noise is loud enough that other riders asked me if something is wrong with my bike. Any help would be appreciated. I just don't want to take it into the dealership and get ripped off.

[BHeth]

When you pull in the clutch (when you're getting the problem) does the idle hang, or immediately start to reduce to idle. Is the tach jumping or moving at all when this happens. How's your chain tension?

[EVO8]

This only happens when comming close to a stop. I normally don't have time to look down until it's completely stopped. By then, everything is just normal. I will take a look at it today though. My chain tension has 1/2 inch play. Someone told me that if my clutch plate is warped or something it might cause this too. Not sure.

[BHeth]

.5 inch sounds really tight off the top of my head. I seem to recall that the curved swingarm on the R1 needs a bit extra, but may be a different year. I can let you know when I get to work. I'm not sure what made me ask in the first place. After another cup of coffee it doesn't sound like the chain, but it's always hard to diagnose from a written description.

Check the tach in a parking lot or something. Somewhere safe without traffic. I'm just curious if the clutch is having difficulty disengaging.

[BHeth]

Well wouldn't ya know it. I have a 1998 and 2002 service manual, but the 2000 is just a supplemental (worthless). The 98 & 02 both recommend 40-50mm of chain slack (about 1.5-2 inches). I have to think the 00 would be in the same range. Maybe someone else can confirm this. So even if it has nothing to do with your current problem, you should slack it up a bit.

Back to the clutch:

Have you checked with the previous owner to see if he was experiencing this?

When was the oil last changed? Correct level?
What viscosity are you using?
If you haven't changed it, can you ask the previous owner?
Any other clutch trouble? Hard to shift from first into neutral when the bike is cold (and running) or anything like that? Do you have to slip the clutch to pull away from stops?

If none of these are the problem it's time to pull that clutch cover off and see what's going on in there, but it's nice to make sure the simple stuff is right before you get dirty. If it's dragging it could be a few different things, like worn springs or a warped plate like you mentioned before. It's not necessarily going to be expensive or something you need a shop for.

For example, if you have a warped clutch plate these are about $10 a pop and you can do it in under 30 minutes.

[The GECCO]

In the same thought process BHeth is going with, we could possibly narrow down the source of the problem this way:

In a parking lot or some other safe place do a stop the way you normally do, and make sure it is exhibiting the symptoms you are describing.

Then do a stop this way - get going the same speed as you did in the previous stop, but instead of pulling in the clutch and leaving the bike in gear while you come to a stop, pull the clutch in, find neutral and let the clutch back out, then come to a stop. If the symptoms are NOT there, I would agree with BHeth that there is a good possibility that the clutch is not fully disengaging. If the symptoms ARE still there, I would think the problems are elsewhere.

Let us know and we'll go from there.

[BHeth]

:) I like the way you think, Gecco! If the problem exists when stopping in neutral I would have put him through a heck of a lot of troubleshooting for nothing. Gotta remember not to be so single minded.

[The GECCO]

eh, I still think your initial diagnosis is correct, but this will help confirm it pretty easily....

[EVO8]

Let me try this out today. Thanks for helping guys.

[EVO8]

Went for a ride around 7pm with little to no traffic at all. While cruising at 40mph, dropped it to neutral and coasted for a little bit, everything runs clean. Then dropped it into neutral and coasted to a stop, runs clean. Back in gear, comming to a stop, clutch pulled and clunk, clunk, clunk til completely stopped. To me, it feels like the engine sprocket is going forward and backing off and engaging forward again, causing the clunk because it's pulling the chain.
I'm watching the tach as this is all happening and it is normal operation. Comming to a stop, clutch pulled, rpm is at 1k rpm (idle). If I pull the clutch at higher speeds, it doesn't make the clunk noise. This only happens when comming to a stop and the bike feels like it's jerking forward until you completely make a stop. Once completely stopped, jerking/clunking stops.

[BHeth]

Have you checked with the previous owner to see if he was experiencing this?

When was the oil last changed? Correct level?
What viscosity are you using?
If you haven't changed it, can you ask the previous owner?
Any other clutch trouble? Hard to shift from first into neutral when the bike is cold (and running) or anything like that? Do you have to slip the clutch to pull away from stops?

It sounds like the clutch is dragging. What about these things? Old oil, the wrong oil level, or running the wrong oil could cause this. It's a bit of a long shot, but it's a lot quicker than ripping into your clutch.

The last couple questions would indicate if your clutch is also slipping.

[The GECCO]

Related to the question about putting it in gear while the engine is running and the bike is sitting still - after you come to a complete stop (with the engine running and the bike in gear) how hard is it to find neutral? Does it come out of gear easily or do you have to pull pretty hard on the lever?

[TT5.0]

In neutral, at a stop without the brake on, rev it a little and see if it wants to inch forward. If it does, clutch is dragging, try an adjustment.

[EVO8]

BHeth: The oil is Mobil 1 15W-50. It's probably right about 3000 miles and due for an oil change. The original owner used the same oil. I don't think the clutch is slipping because it grips pretty good at any speed.

The GECCO: When the bike is not warm, it's pretty easy to put it into neutral from 1st gear but when the bike gets alittle warmer (about 1 mile or so), it is hard to find neutral. I keep missing neutral and going into 2nd gear. I play with this alot at stop lights. Once it keeps missing neutral it's pretty hard to get it into 1st or 2nd gear. I have to press pretty hard to get it into either gears.

TT5.0: In neutral without the brake on at a complete stop, it doesn't inch forward.



Just letting others know, I'm not a nube at riding. I've been riding for at least 10 years (I ride all year round, snow/rain it doesn't matter I still ride). Just in case someone jumps out calling me a nube and don't know what I'm doing.

[BHeth]

BHeth: The oil is Mobil 1 15W-50. It's probably right about 3000 miles and due for an oil change. The original owner used the same oil. I don't think the clutch is slipping because it grips pretty good at any speed.

Just letting others know, I'm not a nube at riding. I've been riding for at least 10 years (I ride all year round, snow/rain it doesn't matter I still ride). Just in case someone jumps out calling me a nube and don't know what I'm doing.

The oil probably isn't the problem then, unless the 3000 miles were put on over a long length of time (like a year or something) and it's deteriorated.

As far as being a noob, I would hope no one was dumb enough to think that. Wrenching on these suckers, diagnosing problems, and riding them are very different things. I'm sure many a great rider has never had the time nor inclination to work on their own bike.

Is taking the clutch cover off and looking around in there something you're comfortable with? I can give you a list of a few things to look at, along with a parts diagram. The problem may be pretty obvious once the cover is off. It can be little tough though, if you don't know what you're looking for. If nothing jumps out as incorrect, broken, swollen, or warped you can always just put the cover back on and take it to a pro. If you decide to open it up, let us know before you start, as there will be a few precautions.

I'd love to help (I really enjoy this stuff and I ran out of things to fix on mine, and my friends, at least til one of us gets some more money!), but my wife is due on Friday, so I better not make any commitments if I know what's good for me!

[BHeth]

Not sure where you live, but if you decide to take it to a shop I would recommend Faster Motosports. They're a forum sponser, and when I was in there getting a tire swapped they were unloading the race bikes from the weekend. Everything I saw was an R1. Beautiful sight I must say! They should be able to handle your problem, and if they say it isn't the clutch or find something else that needs attention I would tend to believe them. Seem to be a good bunch of guys.

[TT5.0]

TT5.0: In neutral without the brake on at a complete stop, it doesn't inch forward.
Did you rev it? It probably won't until you give it some rpms. Give it a quick blast to 5-6k and see if it tries to move. I had a similar problem with a gsxr 750 and it was the clutch dragging. When I gave it a good rev it would barely inch forward a couple of inches. It wasn't very noticeable. The bike was also very hard to get into neutral at a stop after it had warmed up. It wasn't a problem when the bike was cold. Try tightening your clutch cable with the adjuster on the bars and then see if it's easier to get into neutral at a stop.

[EVO8]

Did you rev it? It probably won't until you give it some rpms. Give it a quick blast to 5-6k and see if it tries to move. I had a similar problem with a gsxr 750 and it was the clutch dragging. When I gave it a good rev it would barely inch forward a couple of inches. It wasn't very noticeable. The bike was also very hard to get into neutral at a stop after it had warmed up. It wasn't a problem when the bike was cold. Try tightening your clutch cable with the adjuster on the bars and then see if it's easier to get into neutral at a stop.

First off, I want to thank everyone for helping. I will take the clutch cover off and see what's going on in there. A car mechanic I am but not a motorcycle mechanic. The thing with these Jap bikes is that they don't ever break down and so.......... not too much experience replacing clutches and such. Any help or advise on clutch removal will help. Thanks.

TT5.0: I forgot to mention that I did rev it at a stop and it didn't inch forward or maybe it just wasn't noticable enough for me to feel it. It only happens when comming to a stop. Let me play with the clutch cable and see if this will help. I know when I first got the bike, it did do this so I adjusted quite a bit but I will play with it some more and see if it will help.

[BHeth]

Do you have a shop manual? If not you can download the 2002 from this link. No 2000 but from looking at the part #s between the two clutches it appears to be identical.

http://www.exupbrotherhood1.com/brotherhood/YZF-R1/

[Player 2]

Sucks to hear about this. Glad everyone is willing to help out.

I never ran into any problems with the bike. Oil was changed regularly w/Mobil1 15W50.

That's a brand new clutch cover that TK put on last fall. Let me know if you need a hand removing it.

[EVO8]

BHeth: Thanks for the manuals. I will open her up and see if anything looks different.

Princess: The bike runs awesome, just this little annoying thing when comming up to a complete stop. Thanks for the offer, I will let you know if I screw things up.

Anyhow, I'm kinda broke right now so I won't be able to fix anything or replace anything at this time. The bike still runs like a champ, it's just this annoying clunk, clunk towards a complete stop. I will probably have to fix it next summer if it ends up being a clutch problem. Thanks alot guys, I'll let you guys know if I find anything out.

[Dr. Joe Siphek]

If you have a rear stand. I would suggest putting it up and do the same thing. This will allow you to stand beside the bike and see things from a different view point. While that rear tire is still moving.

A few other things it could possibly be...
a kink in your chain?
is your chain stretched?
possibly missing a tooth either Counter or rear sprocket?

[EVO8]

That's a good idea, I will put it on a stand and run it and have the front sprocket cover off to look at it. Thanks!

[EVO8]

Over the weekened, I had alot of time off so I started working on the Bike. When I put it on the stand, I put it in first gear and the bike started running. WHen I pulled the clutch in, the wheels kept spinning and not stopping. So I started to adjust my clutch lever counter clock wise. Whola! That fixed it. When I pulled the clutch in, the rear tire came to a stop. Took it out to ride and no more clunking forward. Looks like my problem is fixed. Thanks for the help everyone!

[Player 2]

Glad a simple clutch adjustment fixed the problem!

[Bassil Duwaik]

congrats

[EVO8]

Thanks guys, I'm glad an adjustment took care of the problem.

[The Joker]

Glad to hear you figured it out, but I thought you might like to know that the API Specification of Mobil 1 15W50 is not what the maintenance manual recommends. Reference Yamaha R1 Service Manual Page 3-25.

Caution:
Engine oil also lubricates the clutch
and the wrong oil types or additives
could cause clutch slippage. There-
fore, do not add any chemical addi-
tives or use engine oils with a grade
of CD or higher and do not use oils
labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING II"
or higher.

Mobil 1 15W50 and all Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oils are an API grade CF oil, which Yamaha states, "Do not use".

http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil_1_15W-50.asp

[EVO8]

Very interesting...... I guess I could just have a Yamaha dealership do my oil changes then. Thanks Joker!

[EVO8]

I talked to a Yamaha dealer (Powersports on 104th) and they told me not to use it but alot of people here have used it with good results. Since oil changes will only be once or twice a year, I guess the dealership can just do it for me. Thanks a bunch everyone.