PMP Track Day Rules?

[konichd]

I plan on going down to PMP for a couple track days this month and I can't find anything on thier website about Bike prep or gear? :(

Anyone know whats req'd for a track day?
Also any advice as far as what to bring etc.?

Thanks!

[rybo]

DK,

For PMP you need a one piece leather suit or a 2 piece full-circumference zip together leather suit. NO TEXTILES ARE ALLOWED

Boots that cover the ankles

Gloves

Full face helmet

Bike prep:

Mirrors removed
lights unplugged and taped over

Easiest way to unplug the lights is to remove the fuse

I'm going on the 13th and will bring tape and tools with me if you want to ride down. I'll also have a cooler with water and gatorade, canopy and some chairs.

S

[konichd]

Are we allowed to run antifreeze or do we have to run water?

Thanks Scott! BTW, see you on the 13th! :)

[rybo]

Anti freeze is ok, no safety wire required.

[Jenny]

I believe as of now antifreeze is allowed, though not recommended. After the first of the year, glycol based coolants will no longer be ok.

[rybo]

JENNY!

[konichd]

Jenny's hot like fire!

[5280ZX6R]

I'm doing my best to make this one as well...

Konichd - I'll be on a green 06.

[JPrider]

I would like to check out PMP, but if I go it will be my first time going to a track. Don't know if I should go to school first or try out the track. Your opinions are appreciated.
Also, what time will you guys be going out there?

JP

[jplracing]

JPrider and others...I took this off my post from a few months ago... I am doing everything I can to make it out on the 13th...questions let me know


For those of you that have asked for instruction.

I have been appointed by Earlene to help instruct new track riders to the rules of PMP.

I will be there hopefully around 9:30am and am more than willing to help out any of the none racers with the rules, safety aspects and lines of the track

I am on a black, white and orange GSXR with the number 55. Please come find me...I have no way of knowing right now who is new and who isn't. In the future Earlene will be developing some sort of certificate to prove that you have been instructed. Without this Cert, or race license, you may not be able to ride...but again this is in the future plans

Just as a refresher to the new PMP rules....

Full leathers One piece perfered but will allow 2 piece as long as it ZIPS ALL THE WAY AROUND
Helmet with no crash damage...obviously
Gloves
Boot must cover ankles

NO STUNTING...Period!

Track entrance and exit must be used without execption....You are required to raise your left hand on the back straight when you plan to exit. Also please don't change your mind...if you hand goes up you must exit. DO NOT USE THE ACCESS RODE COMING OUT OF TURNS 2 and 7 TO EXIT. YOU MUST EXIT BETWEEN TURNS 9 &10!

THE TRACK ENTRANCE IS ONLY VIA THE HOT PIT LANE BETWEEN THE STAND AND THE STRAIGHT.

Mirrors Must be removed

All lights (Head Light, Turn Signals and Tail light must be taped over)

General Rule about sessions depending on turn out

Light/smaller turn out

Street 1/2 hour
Race 1/2 hour
*Earlene will determine which session runs first 1/2 hour and who runs 2nd.

Heavier turnout....if needed

20 Minute Sessions

Street
Yellow Plate (novice racers only)
White (expert racers only)

**Those of you that have race experiance, but are on a street bike please see me prior to picking a session (yes Dean I am helping you out here)

Earlene and the track mangement have the ultimate responsiblity of determining whether rules are being violated...if there is a question ask prior to.

Obviously these are the basic rules of any track...but with such a possible differential of speed it is all about safety!

If anyone has any questions please PM me or email me at jlogalbo@msn.com I am here to help out.

Thanks

Joe

[konichd]

Thanks Joe! I'll definately be looking for you on the 13th! :)

[rybo]

Joe,

If we have a large newbie turn out I am more than willing to help with instruction if you decide you need assistance.

Hope you can make it

Scott

[jplracing]

Scott,

Help is always appreciated...Give me a call at 3/961-2669 work out the details

Joe

[Ene]

Thanks for the GREAT and ACCURATE info Joe, Jenny. It's wonderful new riders want to give PMP a try. The website will be updated to offer more information, especially after 1-1-2007. It is very important that any new rider to PMP find Joe if he is there or ask me for a "seasoned" PMP track user to get some guidance. It doesn't matter if you have taken a class with the MRA, etc. Riding at PMP has some "special" riding points so if your new to PMP find Joe, find me but for all our safety sake please ask! I will begin now to "prepare" riders (and car users) at PMP for 2007. We are 99% sure our Insurance company is going to REQUIRE ALL users to have taken a riding class, safety class or have some type of riding instruction BEFORE they can ride/drive at PMP. For those that will be offended by this please think about it. Insurance companies and regulatory agencies actually dictate track operations. As staff we enforce. If you check most if not all other tracks, this is standard operating procedures. PMP was one of the last hold outs but times change and to offer open track days for everyone, we must follow their requirements. The cost to PMP, just for liability coverage on the road course is over $50,000 a year. We only raised our rental fees by $5.00. The only way we can "make" money is by volume of users.

ALL that said, Beginning in 2007 we are offering this for anyone which does NOT have a card representing they have attended a riding/safety class:


Once a month (more if the need is there), a day will be reserved at PMP for a class. The class will offer 4 hours of classroom instruction and 4 hours of track time. The student will receive a card from PMP informing other tracks the student successfully completed the class. OK, what is the cost?

The class, the instructor, exclusive use of the track that day and 4 hours of open track time will cost $199.00. $99.00 is for the instructor and $100.00 is for PMP. PMP will issue the card and pay the overhead costs for the class (This includes use of the classroom, utilities, insurance, maintenance costs).

I have a list of certified instructors which will teach this class so if you are interested, contact me for additional information.

Thanks to everyone,
Earlene

[onepoorstunna]

We are 99% sure our Insurance company is going to REQUIRE ALL users to have taken a riding class, safety class or have some type of riding instruction BEFORE they can ride/drive at PMP. For those that will be offended by this please think about it.

But of course we will think about it Ene.

And so it ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.

Well, it is unfortunate, but not unexpected. For many moons in Colorado we had it good, Thursday night bikenights at nearby Second Creek, a big track available for big bikes to stretch there legs at Pueblo, and then the "one step short of a game trail" CDRP for dirtbikes and whatnot.

I was always amazed, after a decade of trackdays back east, that here in Colorado I could just wander out onto the surface with nary a by your leave and $45. And it is not a surprise that such a wildly free system might fall victim to the natural consequences of mixing high speed racers and low speed beginners.

In either case, I hope PMP does well with its transition to a new system of enforcing who should, and should not ride, hopefully the throughput on the new system will be high enough to keep PMP around for many years to come without interference from the usual groups who want to plow tracks under in the name of "developement".

[Bueller]

Probably the wisest decision, unfortunately this will discourage some that were on the fence about hitting up the track.

[onepoorstunna]

Probably the wisest decision, unfortunately this will discourage some that were on the fence about hitting up the track.

I'm betting that while it might not discourage, its a pain, and when something is a pain its easy to just blow it off, and go play street squidling because its easier, and no one makes you drain the antifreeze on your streetbike.

[rybo]

I'm betting that while it might not discourage, its a pain, and when something is a pain its easy to just blow it off, and go play street squidling because its easier, and no one makes you drain the antifreeze on your streetbike.


That and it's expensive by comparison. The money spent doesn't get you any additional track time. What it gets you is really much MUCH more valuable in the long run, but that's hard to see for many new trackday riders.

One potential option for future consideration may be to do something like NESBA does. For first time track riders they allow them to do a few guided laps for free following a designated instructor/track control moniter. If they like it then they sign up for the track day or class, if not then they get to go home without it costing them anything other than the time it takes to prep the bike. If PMP is going to essentially keep a list of "qualified riders" anyways, it wouldn't be that hard for them to keep a list of those who have used their "freebie"

The NESBA thing essentially has a control rider at the front of a group who sets the pace and demonstrates the line around the track. No passing is allowed either of the control rider or within the group. They guide the first lap pretty slow, and then do two or three more gradually increasing the pace. Then they all pull in to the pits and the day continues. It seems to work well, I've done a few days with them back east and I'd say well over 75% of the people who do the newbie freebie sign up for the rest of the day, which includes instruction.

Just a thought

Scott

[Ene]

Scott,
Thank you very much for your thoughts. I really like the idea. I'll take it to the Board of Directors and let them know there is an alternative which may help some riders adapt to the new marching orders.

Thank you again,
Earlene

[jplracing]

The other thing to keep in mind is that we have been spoiled in Colorado with low track fees. THe $50/$75 that Pueblo charges is cheap compared to others accross the country.

If I understand correctly the AFM guys pay almost $300 to ride Thunderhill. I can't imagine that the larger tracks are any better.

So the fact that Pueblo is trying to keep the cost down is a good thing. You guys may be right when it comes to someone not wanting to pay the $200.00, but is there loss

[DevilDuc]

I am curious about a few things ......

I understand the insurance costs and requirements for tracks and track day organizations. I have worked for, and ridden with, both Team Arizona and AZTrackday.com in Phoenix, Arizona. The class instruction for both organizations was optional ... meaning that there was instruction available should a rider wish to uitilize it, but it was NOT mandatory in order to ride on the track. Both organizations simply segregated riders into 3-4 groups depending on skill levels ... street\beginner, intermediate, and advanced. The rider coaching was mainly used for the street and intermediate riding groups since the advanced group usually consisted of racers and the faster, more experienced non-racer sportbike riders. This system seemed to work well and resulted in everyone having a good time without any abnormally high instance of crashes or additional cost to new riders. The rider coaches were usually made up of MSF certified instructors and\or racers depending on the group. The coaches were compensated by having unlimited track time (no money exchanged hands). In addition, both organizations had assigned corner workers and safety personel who were also present at every track day and they were also compensated for their time by free track time among the sessions throughout the day. In addition to the workers, there was also an ambulance at the track during the track day event which was required by the insurance company.
From what I understand, there are no corner workers present during a track day event at PMP (unless there is a MRA race). There is not an ambulance present during an event (unless there is a MRA race). Yet the insurance company for PMP will be requiring instruction for all riders who attend? I find that very confusing.

Now, I am not saying that your ideas of taking a safety class to obtain a license or card allowing people on the track is a bad idea, but I find it hard to believe that your insurance company would require it for operation. I would have to assume that they would require safety personel (ambulance, cornerworkers, etc.) to be present before they would require classroom\on-track instruction before a customer would be allowed on the track.

My question would be this ...
How would you handle someone who has many miles of on-track experience? Being new to any track has a learning curve, but would you require EVERYONE who is a first-timer to your track to take the instructor led class and pay the additional fees ... even if that person has been through rider schools like the California Superbike School, CCS racer license school, etc.?
I am not trying to start crap, and forgive me if this comes accross in a negative manner ... I really don't mean for my comments to offend. I am just curious how this will work out for those who have never been to your track before.

[Ene]

Thank you for your questions.

First of all, if any rider can produce a card from ANY organization, instructor or previous class experience- NO they do not have to take the basic class we will offer. I was asked if a rider/driver would have to do this year? NO, all we need is a one time verification of previous instruction. I wish I knew how other tracks offer ambulance ($900.00 per day) Corner workers- ($500.00 per day) overhead (maintenance, wages, insurance, utilities,etc-$650.00 per day) and still keep the daily track rental reasonable for their customers. If we get 10 full day riders for $75.00, that barely covers the overhead, let alone upgrades and or an ambulance, corner workers, etc.

If we could not obtain insurance, the answer is obvious. NO track time, so if they say "must show proof of previous instruction", we must find a method which does break the bank for anyone. Any suggestions are always considered and I truly thank you for asking. We are trying our very best to make this as painless, on as many users, as possible.

Thanks again.

[DevilDuc]

I wish I knew how other tracks offer ambulance ($900.00 per day) Corner workers- ($500.00 per day) overhead (maintenance, wages, insurance, utilities,etc-$650.00 per day) and still keep the daily track rental reasonable for their customers. If we get 10 full day riders for $75.00, that barely covers the overhead, let alone upgrades and or an ambulance, corner workers, etc.

A track day in Phoenix at either of the three Firebird tracks runs around $175.00 per person. This usually averages to be about 2.5 hours of tracktime per day,per person. Both organizations do things a little differently, but the principle of operation is the same. There are corner workers, riding coaches, and an ambulance present at all events. There are little additions like concessions at some events, or somtimes sponsors will provide lunch for the event attendees. There is usually a tire vendor present as well for those who need tires for the day.

The corner workers are working on a "voluntary" basis ... they are compensated for their time in the form of track time throughout the day. With Team Arizona, there are usually 3 workers per station, so that when one worker is out riding his\her session there are still two workers left to attend to the corner(s) they are working. They do this so that if there is a need for assistance, one worker can use the radio and keep the track marshal informed of the situation while the other worker attends to the fallen rider(s) and asses the situation. The corner workers are responsible for setting up and tearing down their respective stations for the day.

The riding coaches are compensated in the same manner ... free track time. There ar usually 2-3 coaches available for each group. While they are not coaching their assinged group, they can ride as much as they want throughout the day. Also, the coaches make themselves known during the riders meeting at the beginning of the day, and they wear a special vest to make them recognizable throughout the day so that anyone who wishes to get assistance knows who to ask for help.

The ambulance is an insurance requirement ... both for the track and the organization. I know it is not cheap, but it is nice to have one available if the need ever arises.

I know that both organizations in Phoenix make money on most of the events. It is not a killling, but they are always on the positive side of the dollar. Most events sell out with an average attendacne of 45-60 riders per event depending on which track is being run ... even with 2 organiations running the show giving customers 2-3 days a month to chose for track time.

I have not had the opportunity to try PMP yet. I am new to Colorado and I have not had the chance to ride there. However, I would love to be a part of making track time in Colorado better for all who attend. If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me for my number and I would be happy to speak with you over the phone.

[rybo]

Twinspeed-

Are the events usually on weekdays or weekends? This is a critical question as to cost. PMP is booked most weekends during the sunny months, so it becomes tough for the track to offer such a thing during that time.

Here in Colorado we've been spoiled for a long time. "Test and Tune" days have historically been plentiful with tracks like Second Creek, CDR, PMP and La Junta all offering them. One reason they worked well was that MOST of the people who showed up had reasonable track experience and the process was essentially self-regulating. In recent years there have been two trends that are making this arrangement less possible.

1. The number of tracks in Colorado offering the arrangement have gone from 4 to 1.

2. The number of people wanting to do trackdays has gone up, many of them new to the idea.

So we are concentrating more people in a smaller place. This has led to more accidents at the tracks during "test and tune" events and increased the risk that a track takes by offering them.

I fully support PMP's decision to require some level of rider education before cutting a person loose on a track, especially a track like PMP where a showroom stock liter bike could easily achieve 160 MPH.

Scott

[N1KSS1KS1x]

I'd work corners for track time no problem

[konichd]

So if I'm a card carrying NESBA member I'm good? :)

[JPrider]

For those that R going to PMP...do you guys perhaps have room for another bike and rider. Or if your bikes R going in a trailer I can haul it with my car. Please let me know or I will have to ride out there.

JP

[DevilDuc]

Twinspeed-

Are the events usually on weekdays or weekends? This is a critical question as to cost. PMP is booked most weekends during the sunny months, so it becomes tough for the track to offer such a thing during that time.

Here in Colorado we've been spoiled for a long time. "Test and Tune" days have historically been plentiful with tracks like Second Creek, CDR, PMP and La Junta all offering them. One reason they worked well was that MOST of the people who showed up had reasonable track experience and the process was essentially self-regulating. In recent years there have been two trends that are making this arrangement less possible.

1. The number of tracks in Colorado offering the arrangement have gone from 4 to 1.

2. The number of people wanting to do trackdays has gone up, many of them new to the idea.

So we are concentrating more people in a smaller place. This has led to more accidents at the tracks during "test and tune" events and increased the risk that a track takes by offering them.

I fully support PMP's decision to require some level of rider education before cutting a person loose on a track, especially a track like PMP where a showroom stock liter bike could easily achieve 160 MPH.

Scott

The track days in Arizona are almost always held on a weekend. Once in a while they would have a Friday event, but those days are few and usually reserved for club events like the local Ducati, BMW, and\or Phoenix sportbike club.

Don't get me wrong ... I am not against education of riders, I just cannot understand why an insurance company for a track would require a class over other safety measures like an ambulance and other staff members for track control. From my past experience, you can have people on the track with track experience\education and they can still have accidents and ride like ass-hats. The ambulance and corner worker staff are there to help with both scenarios. Logic would tell me that an insurance company would have thought of these recommendations before asking for a rider education class for track access. In either case ... as long as there is a track that is relatively close for me to ride on then I will support the organization in charge.

Like I said before ... Ene, feel free to shoot me a PM if I can help in any way.

[denverbusa]

Earlene,
Since your "previous instruction" requirement will be enforced next year and with what I would consider only informal track day training and of course my "School of Hard Knocks" which I assume you wont accept, have you set up a date for your first training class?

I'll keep an eye out in this section for the class. I know of many people that would be very interested in this type of class / day at the track. Every time I have gone to the track I have enjoyed myself immensely and look forward to spending more time there in the future and would hate to be unable to attend when my schedule allows but haven't taken your training day yet.

Thanks,

[Clarkie]

how it it decided who is elligible to instruct?

I have a ton of people emailing me that want me to coach them (both street riders, trackday junkies and racers), i have a group of street riders that contacted me and want to do an event early next year and would like to know how this would work?

I agree with Twin-Speed as i am used to trackdays being $150-$200 for an 'organised' event, dont get me wrong i would rather pay less for a test n tune day, but i know where he is coming from.

[DevilDuc]

how it it decided who is elligible to instruct?

I have a ton of people emailing me that want me to coach them (both street riders, trackday junkies and racers), i have a group of street riders that contacted me and want to do an event early next year and would like to know how this would work?

I agree with Twin-Speed as i am used to trackdays being $150-$200 for an 'organised' event, dont get me wrong i would rather pay less for a test n tune day, but i know where he is coming from.

Hey there Clarkie! If you are in the business of coaching riders, tell me where to sign up! You and I have spoken to each other before in the past through e-mail about my 2001 Aprilia RSVR ... well it is now a dedicated track tool and I am seriously considering racing in the MRA next season. I could always use some help. I have not been on a track in over 6 months because of us planning our move from Phoenix to Erie, so I will probably need some assistance getting back up to speed and learning a new track (or few). If you get an event going, please let me know.

Ciao',
Karl

[Ene]

Update:

We held a board meeting last night and discussed this issue. We are still waiting for the insurance company to send us exactly what they consider acceptable as far as credentials for the class.

The moment we hear I will post their requirements.

Thanks so much to everyone for the input. Until we know for sure I don't want to give out any "we think" comments. Yep, we are pushing them for an answer ASAP.

Thanks to all,
Ene

[pg_rider]

On the subject of personal instruction, I'm more than willing to offer my services as well. As a former expert-level racer (who even dabbled in an AMA 750 Superstock race back in the day!), Loudon Rookie of the Year, and all-around decent guy :D I will work with you at a track day for only the cost of track time; i.e. if you want a half-day you pay my $50 track fee, a full day you pay my $75 track fee.

Earlene, if newbies took advantage of this sort of thing can you say if that would constitute "previous instruction"?

[konichd]

On the subject of personal instruction, I'm more than willing to offer my services as well. As a former expert-level racer (who even dabbled in an AMA 750 Superstock race back in the day!), Loudon Rookie of the Year, and all-around decent guy :D I will work with you at a track day for only the cost of track time; i.e. if you want a half-day you pay my $50 track fee, a full day you pay my $75 track fee.

Earlene, if newbies took advantage of this sort of thing can you say if that would constitute "previous instruction"?

Paul....my instruction bitch! :)