Open Discussion: IMI, safety and the CSC

[rybo]

IMI is starting to become a major destination for many of us. As a result we are seeing more and more instances of "close calls" that could really end badly. In another thread someone said "we don't want to learn this shit the hard way" and I second that sentiment. These lessons are ones that we learned all too brutally just a year ago.

I understand not wanting to ride to the track without the mirrors on the bike, but you still have at least two options to help keep you safe(er) out there. One is that you can simply fold them in. make it so they aren't usable. The other is that all kinds of guys show up with tools. Borrow what you need, take the mirrors off. Not too hard.

I started riding around IMI 4-5 years ago and at that time there were several other tracks available for people to go to and get their kicks. We are currently down to two tracks in the state that will let street riders on. IMI and Pueblo. Let me be clear, this is unusual. Most every other track I've been to does NOT allow people to show up and hop on like we have the ability to do. In the midwest the only way a street rider gets on a racetrack is to be there with some organizing body like Sportbike Track Time or NESBA. You think $35 (IMI) or $75 (pueblo) is expensive...try going to one of the sites and seeing what a track day at Miller or Road America will cost you. Granted, they are far better facilities, but you aren't only limited by the money, there are only a few times a year you would get to ride.

As other tracks in Colorado have closed we have congested a course that was never really intended to handle us. One of three things is going to happen in the near future:

1. We will choose to police ourselves. Establish a code of conduct and a set of rules. We should propose this to IMI and let them know that we want to do this in order to assure that the facility continues to be available for our use. Then it's on us to abide by and enforce the standards we set for ourselves.

2. Someone will get hurt, badly. We've managed to avoid that so far this year, but we've already had way too many close calls. IMI is basically a safer track because it's a slower track, but a bike to bike or a bike to person collision can be as devastating at 40 MPH as it is at 100 MPH.

3. Our presence at IMI will become unwelcome for any number of reason starting with we prevent them from making money by crashing and causing messes on the track that keeps them from running their bread and butter operation (rental karts)

I propose that we use this forum to create a set of rules that we can agree to abide by when doing track days at IMI. This isn't a rocket science thing, there are 100's of tracks that have rules already established, so lets use what already works. I'm happy to maintain the list here, please post up with suggestions. Here is what's already been suggested.


1. Mirrors must be removed, taped over or folded in.

2. It is the rider executing a pass who holds the responsiblity for making that pass safely. HOLD YOUR LINE.

3. When the group exceeds (x) number of bikes we will split sessions between faster and slower riders. For starters the riders will self appoint to a group. If someone is obviously out of place (how do we handle this?)

[pilot]

Recently, IMI installed cameras on the track so that they could monitor the situation. Here one can plainly see what happens when safety rules are not adhered to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5xg_Vgv6E4

Not the inside passing and forcing of riders off the track just to gain position.

[rybo]

The link is broken, and I appreciate the humor that it may have contained, but it is my hope that we can keep this thread (really, just this one thread) on topic. We are not yet at the breaking (braking?) point of not being able to use IMI, but that future is possible and I would hate to see it happen.

[pilot]

link fixed.

Here again is another reason I am in favor of a dues paying portion of the CSC MC club that would sanction training, sponsor events, provide some level of agreed upon certification for track use, etc. I realize that several of the members here do a great job with R2SL and other important events- this is not meant to take away from their efforts in a way. If training for tracks like IMI were provided, even on an informal basis, then over time it may develop into something that would be of benefit. Else, it is just a good idea that a few people will tend to actively support. I, for one, would be interested in attending a little class time. But, I'm not one for spending a whole lot of dough for basic rider safety training. Personally, I don't believe that the honor system works too well when egos get on the track.

[DevilsTonic]

1. Mirrors must be removed, taped over or folded in.

2. It is the rider executing a pass who holds the responsiblity for making that pass safely. HOLD YOUR LINE.

3. When the group exceeds (x) number of bikes we will split sessions between faster and slower riders. For starters the riders will self appoint to a group. If someone is obviously out of place (how do we handle this?)

Great post Scott!

Another thing that should be mentioned is track exit / entry procedures. As most of us know that can be deadly if not done properly.

[BlueDevil]

Keep in mind that IMI has not really been very biker friendly in the past. If you ask to much of them in our favor or effor toward bikers...they are likely to just say "no bikes" Just a word of warning. Im all for safety but be careful how much U want to have the actual biz of IMI involved.

The rules you have labeled so far are not uncommon rules of any track. In fact, they are ones that should already be in the un-written constitution of riding on a track.
IMI is a fun little place to get some seat time and not have to drive to Egypt. Its good you are thinking of the safety of your self and others. Being able to return another day for more fun on the track is the name of the game.

In addition, remember there are a lot of riders who dont have anything to do with CSC. How do you get the word to them? If there is 10 CSC riders and 1 local guy who has no affiliation, tearing it up .... doesnt really matter if the other 10 guys are following the "rules" if the 1 guy slams into the others... This is where you would end up having IMI involvement and run the risk of them saying "get lost" Believe me they have been known to say....ehh "we dont really care of bikes come or not". (Granted this was many years ago..perhaps management has changed???????

[Fly boy]

1. Mirrors must be removed, taped over or folded in.

2. It is the rider executing a pass who holds the responsiblity for making that pass safely. HOLD YOUR LINE.

3. When the group exceeds (x) number of bikes we will split sessions between faster and slower riders. For starters the riders will self appoint to a group. If someone is obviously out of place (how do we handle this?)

Maybe setting Times for when the slower/faster riders should come out. ie. fast riders from 1000-1230, no slower riders during that time if there will be a bigger group out there?

[DevilsTonic]

The rules you have labeled so far are not uncommon rules of any track. In fact, they are ones that should already be in the un-written constitution of riding on a track.

Agreed, but this will benefit anyone new to the track that doesn't yet know this un-written law.

[konichd]

Maybe setting Times for when the slower/faster riders should come out. ie. fast riders from 1000-1230, no slower riders during that time if there will be a bigger group out there?

Bad idea, people have other schedules so "dicatating" times for riders would be BS. If someone told me I couldn't ride when I paid my 35 bucks because "its the fast session" I would say "fuck you sir."

[pauliep]

Everyone usually congregates in the same general area. Once the bikes are given leave and the karts get the go, it's as simple as approaching the non-CSC affiliates and discussing the organization that's trying to be used. I'm sure most riders will agree what we are doing is putting safety priority and steeping the learning curve. By creating the better track rider makes the experience better for everyone (look how much fun the motards have). If the non-CSC affiliates say they paid their money and will ride as much as they want, then just inform them that there are some new-to-the-track-riders out there and take caution. The rule I would like to contribute here is communication off the track. You or someone in the group, take responisibility to communicate to everyone.

[rybo]

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Dion....you rock.

DK, well, would they say the same thing at Pueblo if it were broken into sessions? (racers/street) It a much further trip and over twice the cost to ride there and everyone there seems to "get it". Some of that is because of the perception that riding at Pueblo is more dangerous than riding at IMI, and to some extent that's correct.

What I would LOVE to see happen is something that involoved minimal management involvement for the reasons Dion outlined. A "code of conduct" that we can essesntially enforce through positive peer pressure. Sure, there are going to be asshats out there sometimes, but like the example given above where there are 10 riders abiding and one rider not, it becomes pretty uncomfortable to be that one rider and essentially outcast from a group of people he (or she) would generally share a lot of common interests with. There are 100 different ways to make this happen, from leaving them out, to being their buddy and trying to include them to "good cop / bad cop". IMI hasn't wanted to manage bikes in the past and I agree that making them enforce rules will probably be our ticket out of there. At the same time if we seriously hurt someone that ticket will come with a pass for the express lane.

I'm going to do my best to update the first post once a day with any suggestions we get. I'm only about 10 miles from IMI where I work, so one of these afternoons I may just go over there, when they aren't busy, and see where they are presently at with motorcycles and if they are open to having suggestions regarding a code of conduct.

Scott

[konichd]

I don't mind alternate sessions for fast vs. slow. But I'm not for 10am-1pm being set aside for the "fast" group only. I'd be all for alternating 15 min. sessions though.

[Lurch]

Well for someone who has been around a few tracks more then a few miles this is what I thought of my first time at IMI on Sunday.

1. It's a very nice GO KART track.

2. It's a nice motard track.

3. It's an OK track for a beggineer on a sportbike to learn on.

4. It's NOT for sportbikes who think they can go fast.

5. It's NOT for bikes over 600cc.

6. Last but not least it's NOT a place to try and go fast unless you fall into the first 2 catagories.

What I saw on Sunday was very disturbing. Not sure when it became the in thing to go to the track on a streetbike that still had everything still attached and functioning but it surely needs to stop. Also make sure your bike is prepared to go the track. I saw someone crash then talk about it then go and and do the exact same thing again. So as I was walking by I noticed his front tire and said to myself I wouldn't put a tire like that on my truck. It's a race track people so make sure you have rubber that will take the abuse a track deals out or you will be spending a bunch of money putting shining new plastic on your bike.

IMI is not the track to learn how to go fast on it's a great track track to learn how to ride but that is it. There is zero room for error because it's not very wide and you don't have time to fix your mistake before you are in the dirt.

It's only a matter of time before someone takes some out and all hell is going to break loose. I was trying to play nice and go around on the outside but then started to remember that front tire I saw and said hell no I'm not getting taken out by some guy with shitty tires. I would like to see a organized trackday up there where people would actually listen to what someone has to say and maybe then it would start to get better but until then it's just going to get worse until something happens then it's just going to go away.

Lurch

[dirkterrell]

Good idea this thread. Rules are useless without enforcement, as has been pointed out, and without IMI management I don't see how any enforcement can take place. So I think a dialog with them is necessary, at least at some minimum level.

They are a business and will talk to groups that can supply income to them. I'll bet they don't get a lot of business during the week. Perhaps we can address some of our safety issues and bring them more business. I suggested in the IMI 3/25 thread that we consider afternoon/evening training sessions during the week with experienced riders pairing up with newcomers to teach them the fundamentals. I'm just brainstorming here but what if we approach IMI with the idea of doing these training sessions once or twice a week in the afternoons, say from 3pm til close. They give us a break on the price since we're not there the whole day, say $15 or $20 per rider. If we have 10-20 riders per week out there, that's additional money they wouldn't normally see and we could negotiate having the bike times to ourselves to eliminate the problem of having non-CSCers being a problem. With the long summer days approaching, we could still get a lot of track time in.

Along those lines, if we had enough interest, we could do a "CSC afternoon" one day a week (perhaps rotating the day to help fit people's schedules) where experienced people could come out an ride with groups at their skill level). Maybe even a "CSC morning" too for those whose schedules preclude afternoon riding.

I'd love to hear additional ideas on how we can get more safe, fun track time at IMI and also help them do more business. It's in our best interest for them to succeed financially and I'm sure we can develop ways to help us and them. Generally when you go to a business owner with ideas that help them make more money, you will get a good reception. If we go bitching about how things are unsafe and how they ought to institute this or that set of rules, they will likely decide that we don't bring in enough money to bother with. We have the numbers to negotiate something that works to the benefit of everyone. Let's figure it out.

Dirk

[Slo]

I know quite a few people that are not on CSC that may be coming to IMI in the future so I will update them about either removing, taping up, or folding the mirrors in.

[sky_blue]

Well for someone who has been around a few tracks more then a few miles this is what I thought of my first time at IMI on Sunday.

1. It's a very nice GO KART track.

2. It's a nice motard track.

3. It's an OK track for a beggineer on a sportbike to learn on.

4. It's NOT for sportbikes who think they can go fast.

5. It's NOT for bikes over 600cc.

6. Last but not least it's NOT a place to try and go fast unless you fall into the first 2 catagories.

-snip-

I agree with these statements.

Not to be a pessimist, but I think it's just a matter of time before someone gets hurt out there. Establishing "rules" may delay that inevitability, but it won't erase it.

I am not a track expert, and have only been on a "big track" once, and IMI once. I just don't get how IMI can carry any kind of insurance for that track. What's stopping someone who wrecks seriously from sueing IMI? They let bikes and carts on there without any kind of safety inspection or rules. You sign something (liability waiver?) when you pay, but most signatures on whatever form that was are illegible. And I rode in once without paying or signing--I didn't take any laps, but I easily could have.

When I dropped my bike at IMI, the first thing I did was run away from my bike. That's what they teach at the big tracks--get out of the crash zone. I felt like an idiot walking back to it, and having Carl stop on the track and help me pick it up...karts and bikes still ripping by, his Busa acting as our mini safety wall. Is it IMI's fault I dropped my bike? Maybe. I was gonna be fine until I ran into the dirt, which was actually clayey goo slime...nice for a run-off area. Am I going to sue IMI for my rashed up plastics? No, cause I'm not a douche. But I might think differently if I had been injured.

I think having karts and bikes share the track is the scaryiest part. I'm more scared of the karts than I am of the haul-ass motards. Does that 10 year old in the cart know I am going to be turning in really late? When he spins out in the corner I just leaned into, will I be able to avoid him?

Not sure what my point in this rambling is. Some vague notion that personal responsibility is great, but I don't think it's enough.

On a more productive note, I think IMI should require more personal safety gear. Hemet, textile or better pants and jackets, over-the-ankle boots (not necessarily race boots), and gauntlet gloves.

I like Dirk's ideas about CSC afternoons---this track could be a great training tool for basic riding skills, and beginning track riding fundamentals.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Great thread RYBO!

Since we really don't want IMI policing things, how 'bout we simply take a vote and when someone is clearly riding like an ass, we simply administer a beat-down?

Here's another thought: if you're riding a motard, do NOT start cutting corners thru the dirt. It throws dirt up onto the track, and it freaks out the people on streetbikes when suddenly there's this huge cloud of dust or the guy comes back onto the track in front of us. I seem to remember a couple of incidences of that occurring the last time I went. I wasn't cut off or anything, it just kinda freaked me out when they did it, and did leave dirt on the track. Every time I saw that dustcloud, I thought someone wrecked.

I would say it is GENERALLY too small for the 1k's, but Terra managed to get around it faster than everyone else (on whatever) on his, and there are PLENTY of roads in the world with corners that tight, so I still think it's a relevant track to ride. Not as much fun for the 1k's as I personally like the more open sweepers, but still good practice.

[Bueller]

As the summer draws closer and the sun is out later, I (and others) will take to riding afternoon sessions after work, and wont touch that track on the weekends, too much kart traffic and now with the sudden interest from the street bike crowd, it is going to be sure luck that some one doesn't get seriously hurt or worse.
If this happens or there becomes a time when the bikes become more hassle than they're worth, none of us will ride there anymore.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

As the summer draws closer and the sun is out later, I (and others) will take to riding afternoon sessions after work, and wont touch that track on the weekends, too much kart traffic and now with the sudden interest from the street bike crowd, it is going to be sure luck that some one doesn't get seriously hurt or worse.
If this happens or there becomes a time when the bikes become more hassle than they're worth, none of us will ride there anymore.

I HOPE nobody gets really hurt, but it seems a REALLY safe track, with lots of runoff (except for the pit wall), and the speeds are slow enough to not get too hurt. Definately safer and slower than the street!

I plan on using it as much as possible, and just be careful of the karts and others. We seemed to do just fine last Sept and we had more than 14 bikes there all told, with maybe 12 at anyone time total, and maybe 6 on-track at any one time.

Personally, I don't see a problem separating into groups based on time/speed for safety. We do it on rides, right? I can't see anyone really having a beef with that.

[Sortarican]

Does IMI lease the track out for a day or 1/2 days?

I'd chip in for a motorcycle only/CSC day.

I've wanted to try the track out but can usually only do it on a weekend when they're pretty crowded.
The thought of riding with a flock of 12 year olds in go-karts has kept me away.

[Bueller]

They run two sessions, one for the rental karts/private karts and one for everyone else. The kart session lasts as long as the renters take to run the laps they paid for. The everyone else session runs 20- 30 min. or until there is another group of renters ready to go. They probably have no desire to monitor the division of bike sessions, they have high school kids running the track. This isn't like second creek was or pueblo where some one times sessions and everyone gets a slot. If you want to divide the available time up it is going to done within the group, and will surely lead to discontent in alloted riding times.

[*KEN*]

Sky_Blue is right, riders should not stop on a hot track to help another. Since a lot of the times there aren't sessions and there aren't corner workers, a fallen rider himself is inclined to try to pick their bike up (even in a run-off area) while the track is hot - there should be a better system for this. Riders should not stop on the track. It would be nice to have some sort of flag system and/or stoppage of session for incident cleanup.

It's not feasible for IMI to provide corner workers. Maybe if we did split sessions, the idle group could corner work?? At very least, a procedure where anyone who rides past an incident should pit and alert a flagger at start/finish would improve safety.

[jplracing]

Guys,

If someone is serious about putting together a program and enforcing it, please let me know. I would be happy to share the PMP class info

Joe

[Gramps]

I hate to be a pessimist here. I actually hope that something can be changed at IMI. I have ridden out there on several occasions and had a few occurences along the way.

There is some old history out there between a cart and a bike. The outcome was basically a big "who cares" from the IMI management. They lost almost all the bike traffic until recently when the community has been forced to ride there again.

My concerns there are on several different levels.

One, I don't think the track is in great shape. I haven't been out there for a few years but from what I have heard the track is pretty chopped up at this point. This would also explain the rate increse to pay for repaving.


Two, safety,safety, and more safety. I learned a lesson when our friend was taken from us last year. The price of a cheap track day may be your life. I don't really care about the 35 dollars, in fact I had rather pay 235 dollars. If you pay more for the track day you are probably going to get rules, instruction, safety, and peace of mind. I know things can happen in this atmosphere as well. I just like the odds a lot better. I have a lot to live for, and don't want to be hurt or come to my demise because of something that could have easily been avoided.


With this being said. Will I ever ride IMI again? Probably. Will I pick a time when it is less crowded and has a hospitable crowd? Definetly.

If history proves to be correct. IMI will be gald to take our money to help their cause as long as we don't get in the way or become a hassle.