T's Newb Question of the Week

[64BonnieLass]

So it seems to me that there are alot of people who wonder about certain things (UFO'S, THE MEANING OF LIFE, ETC).

Perhaps some are too shy to post. So I'm gonna do T's Question of the Week so that all of you Veteran's can chip in and teach via the internet. I will post the things that come to my mind as a newb. If I question it, perhaps others do as well. And maybe some great conversations will pursue to teach us all something.

Perhaps my questions can teach others as well, as the God's post the answers. And I know that plenty of you LOVE to teach. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION. If it enlightens one person, or you learn one thing, it's worth it. Right?

I have no problem being the retard-short bus chica of the club so here it goes:

QUESTION?:
Is it better, as a new rider, to put yourself in difficult, and possibly dangerous situations - high traffic areas, learning quick breaking (maybe the hard way), learning clutch, throttle, rain, snow, bad or grooved roads, wind, busy roads (santa fe)) in order to learn to be a better rider.

Is it better for newbs to learn the elements and the obstacles to overcome right up front. How do newbs get better?

OR

Would you all suggest a newb take it easy. Baby themselves for some (period of time (insert here), never ride in rain and wind. Never subject themselves to the likes of the Santa Fe madness or I-25 for that matter.

ALL SUGGESTIONS WELCOME. This is a question I have personally, but maybe great input from the veterans will show us a few things.

T

[mtnairlover]

I don't consider myself a vet by any means. But, since my learning has been over the past 2 years, I do think I've learned and grown tremendously. And that learning has been quite recent, so it's a whole lot easier to remember. So, I will begin with my opinion.

Honestly...learning to ride and getting "into the element" is all up to the individual rider and what he/she is comfortable with. You can't force this understanding and the feeling of being comfortable on the road. It has to come at your own pace. Otherwise, you will find yourself in worse situations, because you are stressing about "not being good enough".

For me? I begged a good friend to follow me around town the first day I decided to get out there. I'm lucky in that I don't live in a big city. Loveland traffic is nothing in comparison. We did not stick to just Loveland on my first day, though. We rode down to Berthoud and out to Johnstown and back again. It was an 80-mile day. When we got back to my place, he asked "where to tomorrow?" I said..."up the canyon, of course." The next day, he let me lead up the canyon to Estes. It was complete ecstasy. I was very much in my element...I can't tell you how good I felt. On the way back, we went down hwy36 and up country roads to come back to Loveland. I biffed it on a turn going left, though. Started feeling like I was going too fast, wasn't leaning enough or countersteering and began fixating on the ditch and that's where I ended up. Yeah, that seems to be a recurring theme...at least it was last year with the Zed. Now, I am much more aware of what I am doing when in turns and corners. I still consciously think about looking down the road, too. I look forward, though, to the day that it's just second nature. But, those learning experiences were only good for me. I don't know if they would get the same results with a different person...naw mean.

Oh, and highway riding? I didn't start doing that in earnest until after my first full year of riding. It used to freak me out even when I thought about the idea. My first time riding at night on the highway (in the full dark) was last Wednesday. I rode from downtown Denver to home in all that traffic. I even ended up with a tag-along cruiser for part of the way. Kinda made me feel a bit more comfortable with him hanging behind me, cuz there's comfort in numbers when it comes to riding at night and being seen.

How's that for my first answer?

[Brizz]

Well since it was all too long..Experience is a great teacher..Maybe Noobs need that...and guess what, theres only one way to get that.

[64BonnieLass]

J,
As a long term rider, please espound on your answer with regard to topic so that others can learn from your experience.

[Brizz]

i did.

[64BonnieLass]

J,
Tell me something about a mistake you made and how you corrected it. Tell me about clutching and breaking and throttle. Teach here. Cause you have a ton of ability. So teach us. That's the point of the thread. Answer my original question from the heart. As the rider you are.

[Brizz]

I have a problem with grabbing a bunch of brakes in the middle of a corner..I trail brake bad, And sometimes i over throttle. Like stated before..experience is a great teacher..Some ppl learn harder than others. So as i stated above..There is the answer. Or your not stating the question in the manner that i can understand.

[rforsythe]

Terri,

I think you need to find the happy medium between the two. If you just go 25mph on bright sunny days, you won't really ever get better. However I'd never suggest that a new rider go blast up a mountain in a snowstorm either. Experience is what you get from riding, but it can also help dictate your own personal limits on what you are safely able to handle as a rider, and whether you can deal with the unexpected with grace, or get overwhelmed.

Brand new riders have a hard enough time just riding smoothly, let alone handling the myriad of other issues like heavy traffic, weather, etc. But after a while your comfort level will increase, and you will take on additional challenges as you become a better rider. Right now I'd go ride in crappy weather just because I can, but I can remember being terrified of that stuff when I was first starting out.

If you're looking for some magic formula to say "riders can handle such-and-such at this point in their riding", it doesn't exist. It's all based on you, what you know, how you react to things, hell it's almost as much emotion as it is skill. It's about as personal a choice as it gets for we riders - can we, or can't we handle that next big hurdle yet?

You are a brand new rider. Take on challenges and find the excitement that is motorcycling, but there is no need to do anything drastic or prove anything. Enjoying this means doing it for yourself, at your own pace, and at your own level.

[rybo]

First and foremost, this has the potential to be a really cool series of threads! Love it!

As an educator I know that there are a great many different learning styles. There are people who learn by both of the methods you suggest in your original question.

To really learn I think that people need to figure out how they learn. Some people can get into bad situations, get a little scared and learn a lot from it. Other people get into that same situation and get so scared that they never want to ride again.

How can a person determine how they learn? One way is to look at how you've learned another challenging task. Are you a "research first then do" kind of person? Are you a "dive in and give it a try" kind of person? In the "fight or flight" continuium where do you generally fall? Answering these kinds of questions will help a person determine their own learning style and help each individual figure out what they need to do to learn how to ride a motorcycle well.

In education we talk about "edgework", that is moving out of your comfort zone a little bit in order to expand your boundaries. In this theory there are three zones; The comfort zone, the edge, and Danger. When you are in the comfort zone you are operating in a known set of circumstances, this is old hat and you're not learning anything when you are here, but if you're doing it right you're reinforcing good habits.

When you're at "danger" you're scared and you are in "defense" mode. You aren't learning anything here, you're just trying to survive, using what skills you have to get out of danger as soon as possible.

Right in the middle (and it can be very hard to find) is "the edge". At the edge the amount of challenge you get is exactly equal to the amount you can learn from the situation. Having a good teacher who can help identify this point and help to keep you near it is really a big help.

This has gotten too long already and if you've made it this far you're a superhero. Education and teaching is a passion of mine, so these are going to be dangerous threads for me

s

[dirkterrell]

Well, there are two major parts to learning to ride on the street: the mechanics of operating the bike and dealing with all of the issues that can present themselves. The former deals with things like smooth control inputs, braking (straight up and in turns), lines through turns, etc. The latter deals with things like distracted cagers, discovering sand halfway through a turn, etc. Sharpening and maintaining your skills at the former can greatly improve your odds of surviving the latter, so it is better to develop them before getting in over your head in heavy traffic.

We have a great resource in the road track at IMI for newcomers to work on turning/braking skills, body positioning, etc. On the weekends it's pretty busy and not the place for new riders but on weekdays it's pretty quiet. I have been working with my brother in law out there and his riding has improved tremendously. Out there, you can work on the mechanics or riding without having to worry about the dangers of the street. You can work one-on-one with a more experienced rider and get rapid feedback on what you're doing.

Once you have the mechanics of riding in reasonably good shape, then you can start working into street riding and learning how to get into the right frame of mind to deal with the dangers of the street. Scanning and "what if'ing" are crucial to reducing the dangers. You have to be able to recognize dangerous situations and have your escape plan in motion when the situation turns bad. You can't reduce the danger to zero but you can reduce it quite a bit.

Dirk

[Mel]

Wow...there is a lot of reading, them is some long ass answers.
To address the question at hand, I would never take a new new n00b out at high speed or through switch backs, but one of the biggest mistakes I see n00bs make is thinking that they should ride with other n00bs or limiting themselves. The best way to learn is by doing (but always within your limits)...the best way to do is to follow the lead of example of someone who you feel is better or who can show you something. I have know several new riders who limited themselves to riding with other n00bs and picked up nasty habits (holding clutch in on a turn, target fixating, etc).
Some of what I know, I learned because I did it way wrong...I didn't take an MSF class when I bought my bike; I bought the bike, jacket, and a helmet and just got on it. I then met a group of guys, hit about 110 on I-25 trying to stay with them, and watched one of the guys lose it and take out the concrete median right in front of me (while he friends continued onwards)....all on my first day on the bike (with no moto endorsement). Yeah, pretty stupid.
While I may seem opinionated and bitchy, I don't want people to feel lost or get in over their heads starting out, I want to feel like I have something to share and teach through my experiences (both positive and negative). That is also why I don't typically ride in large groups, and why I am always willing to give my phone number to a new rider (or insecure rider) and spend a one on one weekend with them.

[Scribbler]

Anybody that wants to improve riding skills needs to focus on that task... however it's how you approach it that dictates risk vs reward.

If you ride with others who've had a lot more experience, it's almost natural to try to keep up with them. However you have to keep in mind what you know your capable of, and what you would like to be capable of. If you wish to push yourself, that's fine... however theres a big difference between going into an unfamiliar situation where you think to yourself "I wonder how fast I can take this turn" versus waiting until after you did it at your normal riding level and thinking to yourself "I bet I could've looked farther into that turn, leaned in and rolled up on the throttle more." Either method demonstrates a willingness to improve, it's just a matter of how much risk you're willing to take.

Are you a risk taker looking for instant gratification? Or are you patient and willing to take time to build the skills at a safer level?

[FZRguy]

Missed you on the ride today. If you’re struggling with your riding, then I believe that you should work on the basics. I’m talkin’ parking lot drills, and someone to watch you and give you feedback is important. I’ve offered to help you with this. When you can perform the basic drills smoothly and with confidence, move on to low traffic areas like your neighborhood, Chatfield Park on a weekday, etc. You need to get the basics of accelerating, braking, and steering down, and you need seat time in a low pressure environment.

[pilot]

Have you, or are you scheduled to take a rider training course?

Saw this on the way back on C470 at 285:

Traffic was going slow in both lanes but not heavy. Turns out there was a bike with a female rider traveling at 55 in the passing (left) lane. She would not move over to the right lane. The wind was a bit pushy on the bikes at that time. About 200 yards in front of her was her male companion and he kept looking back at her (frustrated). She looked scared as she rode with too many RPMs in the tuck position, again at 55ish MPH. Traffic was riding her butt and passing her on the right. We finally passed her and as we passed the male companion, doing say 75ish. She just kept pace in the right lane and he shot way ahead of his friend. I looked back in my mirror and thought to myself, "Gee, she's scared to death and he's acting the dick."

Confidence in road skills goes a long way to helping being relaxed. A relaxed, attentive rider is a safer rider. A good teacher will help build that in a rider.

[#1Townie]

quick tips to noobs..

in bad times stay calm... take a breath.... dont over react to the situation... 2 fingers on the brake dont use your whole hand.. if you lock up the rear relax and let off the bike will straightn if it gets side ways...

if you go down dont fight it go with the flow...

lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of saddle time...

[DevilsTonic]

When I started riding, I took it easy just tooled around town for a couple weeks. After I started feeling more comfortable, I had a more experienced rider take me gently through the canyons giving me pointers. There were plenty of times as a newb that I got stuck in the elements (rain, snow, wind, etc.). Having no choice but to face some things is a great teacher. If you baby yourself too much, you will never get better.


I say crawl before you walk, before you run. Get comfortable, then accept new challenges.

[Devaclis]

As far as riding in the elements, if you like it, you will become better at it more quickly. 1 reason is you will be in those elements more. 2nd reason is you will not be as nervous being in those elements because you will be too busy smiling

[mtnairlover]

I say crawl before you walk, before you run. Get comfortable, then accept new challenges.

Yeah, what Leah said.

When I bought my Zed last summer, I decided to go on a ride with a more veteran group of riders. My group had been the Loveland group and while I love riding with Bat, Turbogizzmo and the cruiser we would take on our jaunts, I wanted to experience something different.

The experience completely blew me away, though. I had this preconceived notion that we would stick together as a group...me being a newb and all. But, they took off and left me. I looked down at my speedo at one point, saw 70mph approaching a curve and just about peed my panties...seriously. I did catch them, though, cuz they stopped at the hwy7 and 72 junction.

What did that experience do for me? It stretched my comfort zone. When I rode with Bat and our lil group again, she said I had definitely improved.

I ride with people of all levels. I've ridden with Scott...and btw Scott, Friday is coming up in a couple of days...loved every second of it...and I've ridden with a new rider, someone who's had his bike since December. He loves riding in the mountains, maybe just as much as me. And he has improved in the few times that we've been out there. The last time, he led along the P2P and had a grin from ear to ear. It was that enjoyable and he definitely had stretched his comfort zone.

City riding? It's a completely different beast. Being aware of things in the city is different from being aware of things in the twisties. I'm less likely to push things in the city than in the mountains...if that makes sense. Constantly being cut off within a couple of feet is something I've gotten used to though. I typically keep my cool these days and let the driver freak out after realizing what they just did and then back off a bit. I have had my moments, though. In the long run, though, trying to "get back" at the cagers isn't worth it.

[dirkterrell]

holding clutch in on a turn

That gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it. You're losing a lot of angular momentum (i.e. gyroscopic stability) doing that.

While I may seem opinionated and bitchy, I don't want people to feel lost or get in over their heads starting out, I want to feel like I have something to share and teach through my experiences (both positive and negative). That is also why I don't typically ride in large groups, and why I am always willing to give my phone number to a new rider (or insecure rider) and spend a one on one weekend with them.

Good points. One-on-one really helps. I had the good fortune to meet some racers when I was in college, so I learned from them and got into racing myself. I learned a lot from those guys and I feel I will always owe a debt to the riding community to pay off by helping newer riders.

Pilot's post also makes a very important point about those of us who are helping newer riders: It's about them, not us. We need to be very, very patient with newer riders and make sure that they feel comfortable. Things that are muscle memory, subconscious things to us take a lot of effort for newcomers to do. A pace that would have experienced riders yawning can have newcomers terrified, and that state of mind is not conducive to safe riding at all. In cave diving we have what we call the Golden Rule: any diver can call the dive at any time for any reason. That's a tremendous psychological relief, especially for newer divers because they know that if they start feeling uncomfortable, they can call it off and no one will give them the slightest bit of grief about it. They will be applauded for doing the right thing because the last thing you need a mile back in a cave a hundred feet underwater is for someone to panic. I make it very clear to new riders that I'm helping that they can pull over at any time for any reason and we'll address the situation to their satisfaction, even if it means parking their bike and riding back with me.

Scott's bit about "the edge" is right on. Motorcycle riding is exhilarating when you probe the edge in a safe environment. It's frightening as hell when you're in the danger zone. As I tell newer riders out at IMI, slowly and methodically increase your pace in small increments, working on the details. When you get the details right, when your control inputs and movements on the bike are smooth, then you suddenly realize how comfortable you feel at speed and that's when riding really becomes fun.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

City riding? It's a completely different beast. Being aware of things in the city is different from being aware of things in the twisties. I'm less likely to push things in the city than in the mountains...if that makes sense. Constantly being cut off within a couple of feet is something I've gotten used to though. I typically keep my cool these days and let the driver freak out after realizing what they just did and then back off a bit. I have had my moments, though. In the long run, though, trying to "get back" at the cagers isn't worth it.

Agreed. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've had a cager do something really stupid and put me in danger. Most of the time, they feel really bad about it and rather than go off on them, I try to stay cool and ask them to just keep an eye out for us. Positive responses help generate good will towards our community and we can always use more of that.

Dirk

[Devaclis]

Riding in town is a different anial allogether, agreed. I think it helps you become a more alert and aware rider. I can't tell you hoe many times I have been bumped, been run into the median, had to grake and then accellerate hard while swerving. But that was last week. Dean helped me quite a bit, although not completely as I am still making mistakes, by making me more aware of my TOTAL surroundings. Not just in front and side to side. You want some great advice on riding in congested areas, shoot Dean a PM

[Stark]

One or two people mentioned it here, but it's all about the comfort level. I remember when I first started riding I would just keep it in the neighborhood, practice, etc. And then one day I just felt like expanding a bit and rode to a friend's job, and after that I never really looked back.

I remember summers and summers ago one of the CSC guys who was a MSF instructor offered the "advanced rider" class for free to a bunch of us. He said something that I never forgot and think about every time before I sit on a bike, every single ride I take whether it's doing "townie" crap like going to the store or going for a weekend ride in the hills -- and what he said was that you never want to ride over 70% of your ability, so that you always have a margin of error to compensate with when something goes wrong. The trick is knowing that every day you get on a bike your ability level changes, and part of becoming an experienced rider is learning how to quickly gauge where you are that day.

The best advice I could give a new rider thinking about this question is to learn at the pace you feel comfortable with and never, ever, succumb to peer pressure while riding. Every summer I've been in this club there's been at least 1 crash because someone didn't realize that just because the person in front of you could do something it doesn't neccesarily mean that you can, or felt they had to keep up and didn't have the skill, etc. And unfortunately in this sport being wrong is rarely a casual learning experience. Learn the basic skills so that driving the bike becomes second nature, THEN start applying it to the more difficult things (weather, bad pavement, high traffic). Trying to learn things with a trial-by-fire type mentality is not only stupid on a bike, it's a good way to get hurt.

Secondly, never be afraid to ask for help -- I know personally I'm more than willing to spend an afternoon with someone new in a parking lot (and have done this before with some riders) or going around town or up to the hills helping them find lines, kill bad habits and learn, and I'd bet there are plenty of riders all around town here who would do the same ... ASK! That's one of the benefits of the CSC, we're a friendly bunch. And I think I can speak for every member when I say we'd much rather see a thread asking for someone to spend a few hours helping a new rider then read a thread about how someone's in the hospital. Or worse.

[Scribbler]

quick tips to noobs..
if you lock up the rear relax and let off the bike will straightn if it gets side ways...

Are you saying to release the rear brake if you lock it up (highside comin soon)? Or are you saying to back off on the throttle? Just curious cuz it may not be too obvious to a new rider.

[Sortarican]

....QUESTION?:
....Is it better for newbs to learn the elements and the obstacles to overcome right up front. How do newbs get better?
OR
Would you all suggest a newb take it easy. Baby themselves for some (period of time (insert here), never ride in rain and wind. Never subject themselves to the likes of the Santa Fe madness or I-25 for that matter.

A tourist asks a New Yorker: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
The New Yorker answers: "Practice."

1) Ease into and practice any new technique.
2) Work on "worse case scenario's" before you encounter the "worse case".
3) Put in the saddle time. There's no substitute for real world experience.
4) Assume that everyone else on the road thinks you murdered their
Mother, ran over their dog, and burned their house down, and now is their
opportunity to exact their revenge by turning you into roadkill.

Oh, and if at all possible, never....ever....ride on Die-25 if you can avoid it.
(See point #4).