Backin' it in

[rybo]

I had the great pleasure of watching a pro do this last week at Miller, and here is what I have to say about it.

As we entered turn 1 on the east course it was clear that he was using the rear brake to lock up the rear wheel. As he did this he countersteered to pivot the bike onto the line he wanted to be on, sliding the rear wheel. Then he hit the gas, and it was like he was shot from a cannon. It was really amazing.

I'm a long long ways from being anywhere near that level. It seems that it is a very effective way of going around a corner.

[irdave]

I think the point is to NOT lock the rear, just make it turn slower than ground speed. Then it's sliding, but just barely- kind of in between the level of "stuck" friction and "sliding" friction... That way it's not so hairball when it regains traction-

Oh, and yeah dude. You're lame. I need to figure out a good set-up for the KTM 'tards- and you apparently don't want free suspension dialing, revalving, respringing- stuff like that. I figured you'd be all and ...

Nah- it's cool. I understand life gets busy sometimes. Let me know if you think it'd be something you'd be interested in- I had an offer from a guy in Utah to send me all of his customers' suspension work if I could sort out a good set-up- Hence the offer.

[Bueller]

Oh I am all about that! I just got back from my trip to Moab.
I'll need to talk with you about the effect on the dirt riding side of my bike.

[Mista Black]

Sliding's riding

It's fun and it's definitely the fast way around a curve. If it wasn't Valentino, Edwards, Stoner, the Bostroms, Haydens, etc wouldn't be doing it.

I don't believe I've ever locked the rear when I've done it, either. It seems to work well on the Beemer's I've had.

[Brat]

okay? is it that hard? with only first gear i have to have a damn near hairpin to do it right, otherwise its just kicking the ass out into a turn then settling down, i am working on third so i can slide it deeper into the turn. when i do it i am coming to stops at lights now, i was able to get them into the turns on 24. stoopid second gear, no more wheelies, nope none. let me see if i can get it sliding into the turn in third we'll see then.
Brat

[Mista Black]

dont need a hairpen... just go faster. it's all about the backend being pushed harder than it should be. i think mine just gets light as i brake going into fast curves. faster curves seem easier to me on the beemah

[Spiderman]

This is not something I'd try doing on the street.

[Bugkiller1]

...making it look too easy on the Hypermotard.

[Slo]

Heres a video of the new Ducati Hypermotard, if you get a chance, watch the test ride about 3:40 into the vid....

This is probably posted up in mutliple places so sorry for the re-post. Just an FYI in case any of you want to see it.

[All-Labout-me]

Here is the best explanation I have seen.
I know how it is to be bit by the bug and want to learn how to hack, so I will tell you how I learned, I will be as descriptive as possible, this technique I learned by tring it out in parking lots late at night at the local mall, you pick the best place for you.
First thing you want to do is to try it in a straight line.

Get the bike going reasonably fast (4th or 5th gear) with PLENTY of room to spare at the end of the parking lot or wherever you are, Now
WITHOUT allowing the bike to engine brake or decellerate pull the clutch in and downshift 2 gears quickly and just as quickly modulate the clutch (release it) to about half pull (there about) while "covering" the rear brake, (meaning apply just enough rear brake to work together with the clutch to brake the rear tire free.

Now the tricky part is in understanding what is really happening here, The bike is traveling at speed (X) and the rear wheel is rotating at a speed constant with speed (X). So when you downshift and cover the rear brake while the forward speed of the bike is still (X) the rear wheel rotation speed drops well below that (X) and breaks free and the result is a slide, up to the point where the bike slows down to the same speed relative to the rear wheel rotation, then the rear wheel comes back in line with the front.

In a straight line all you will really feel is the rear wheel dancing around a bit behind you but the first lesson is to get the tire/rear wheel to break free so that you can grasp the concept.

Once you have that down you can then move to the next lesson which involves counter steering in concert with all of the above principles. This is done exactly the same way and with the exact same approach however the idea is to slide the bike in as close the the apex of the turn as possible, that concept is really the hardest to perfect because you have to train your mind to go alot deeper into the corner prior to sliding or you UNDER shoot the corner and apex too soon.

Counter steering is an ABSOLUTE in my opinion when sliding on pavement for 2 very important reasons (1) you are physically PUSHING down (away from you) on the opposite grip which forces the bike to lean which then gets you onto the edge of the (rear) tire and (2) gets the front tire pointed into the direction of the slide.

The biggest mistake you can make here is to stay on top of the bike during this process, you need to get down into the "hole" with your upper body with the majority of your weight as low as you can get it while still maintaining absolute control of the bike. If it hooks up and you are on top the result could be a high side.

The only variable I can think of would be the number of gears you need to downshift in order to get YOUR bike slide at any given speed, also another note to make is to be very aware of chatter and hop during the slide, if the rear wheel starts hopping pull the clutch in slightly and back off the brake a little.

Take it easy at first and learn to get the rear wheel to break free in a straight line first.

I am assuming with all of this you will be trying this technique on a 4 stroke machine? 2 strokes are a lot harder to perfect due to the lack of engine braking.

The speed with which you "Dump/Modulate" the clutch will have a BIG impact on how this process works or doesnt work but youll figure it out.

I hope this has helped, and I hope you remember to keep the speed up when you get to the sliding into corners part, the slower you go the more tendancy there is for the bike to hook up and high side you. Have fun.


This is the best explanation I have heard on this subject.
-Doug

[AshliRider44]

I wish Dave got on here more often, he got really good at this while racing last year.

[Slo]

Bueller, if you go and try this at IMI, please let me know so I can come watch.

[Bueller]

I do it all the time, it is just very hard on the tire, so I have gone to mostly kneedown turns. I use it mostly when I want to out brake some one into a corner, it allows for much later braking. Haven't done it on a sportbike on purpose since racing season in '05 at SCR, and at that time it wasn't something I was deliberately trying, it just resulted from heavy braking (front, with multiple downshifts) and my tendency to use my rear brake (a no-no according to some) from my dirtbike back ground.
I was just curious as to the responses it would get. Being a "technique" and all.

[Bueller]

One of the few I have since none of the photogs like to set up in those corners.

[dirkterrell]

I do it all the time, it is just very hard on the tire...

Now add drifting the front into the turn to scrub off speed. Check out this pic on Freddie Spencer's site:

http://www.fastfreddie.com/html/retrospective.htm

Dirk

[smobag]

Not exactly sure if this would even qualify.

-On any dirtbike when in deep enough dirt or sand, and correct speed, you can easily get the back tire out and control it? I am pretty sure you mean on the street which I personally have never done. Don't really intend to lol

[-PUCK-]

So the secret is, go to first.

If I do that, I get this really violent un-cool rear end bouncy effect....(chatter).
I guess it has something to do with throttle control on downshifts?



Oh yeah, the bike was much better at PMP after your help Dave!

[Bueller]

If I do that, I get this really violent un-cool rear end bouncy effect....(chatter).
I guess it has something to do with throttle control on downshifts?

Has to do with clutch modulation, you control the chatter with clutch control, in effect a manual slipper.

[irdave]

Has to do with clutch modulation, you control the chatter with clutch control, in effect a manual slipper.

Yeah, that's what I've got, too. You have to let the clutch out, not just dump it. If you're going down far enough (enough gears) it'll slide.

[Bueller]

Now add drifting the front into the turn to scrub off speed. Check out this pic on Freddie Spencer's site:

http://www.fastfreddie.com/html/retrospective.htm

Dirk

Pushing the front is not something that I am going to try to repeat on a regular basis.

Yeah, that's what I've got, too. You have to let the clutch out, not just dump it. If you're going down far enough (enough gears) it'll slide.

When you have a 4 speed and you stomp 3 down that is a huge transition.

[krod]

Ya know its funny... all these responses saying how easy it is yet every time I go to the track or on rides I see only a few guys do it. Trust me its much harder than it looks. Anyone can lock up the rear brake and slide into a turn. Try doing it running 75+ in 4th gear, slam down to 20+ ,apply the front brake, cover the rear(not lock up) and apply enough clutch and body english to get the rear wheel to spin and follow through the corner back on the throttle and make to look smooth with 10 other guys in the same corner. Its not easy

[Filo]

Pushing the front is not something that I am going to try to repeat on a regular basis.

Last time I pushed the front I ended up picking dirt out of my radiator guards.

Ya know its funny... all these responses saying how easy it is

Naaaaahhh,... It is easy. Just follow me next time

[Bueller]

Naaaaahhh,... It is easy. Just follow me next time

He needs help picking mud out of his radiator guards

[krod]

[quote=Filo;173794]Last time I pushed the front I ended up picking dirt out of my radiator guards.



Last time I pushed the front I ended up getting a ride in a red van.