The FIM has lost it's mind....

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=10961

How they can justify the displacement increase is beyond me, especially considering the absolute dominance the twins have shown for so many years due to the rules breaks. This in the face of the recent wins by Bayliss. Amazing..... Maybe Ducati told the FIM they'd send some big hairy guido's over to make them swim with the fishes if they didn't change the rules.......

[rybo]

Frank,

We've been over this 100 times, and I think you're going to see this be an OK thing for FIM. Everyone said they'd lost their minds when they instituted the spec tire, and that's turned out to be a good thing.

Here you eliminate the double standard that's existed in terms of modification in WSBK for a lot of years. The engines currently in the ducatis are much closer to GP spec motors than typical superbike motors. The AMA didn't allow the same engine mods the FIM did, which is why the Ducati never was competitive here. Also the twin currently has a weight penalty and an intake restriction by the new rules, something that is up for review and subject to change to make the bikes competitive with each other. That doesn't exist in the current rule structure, so I say you should throw down and rejoice. It's going to make the series more interesting, not less so.

s

EDIT: While the Ducati is a great bike, the reason Bayliss is winning these days is because he's simply the best rider out there. Doubt this statement? Check last season's final GP race result...

[konichd]

RYBO! Right on as usual!

[~Barn~]

Frank! Pissed off as usual!

[R1chie]

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=10961

How they can justify the displacement increase is beyond me, especially considering the absolute dominance the twins have shown for so many years due to the rules breaks. This in the face of the recent wins by Bayliss. Amazing..... Maybe Ducati told the FIM they'd send some big hairy guido's over to make them swim with the fishes if they didn't change the rules.......

Well I agree with you Frank. Ducati should produce a competitive in line4 if they can't compete with a twin, and that includes over here. Competition weeds out bad or inferior design. If Ducati wants to compete with the twin, let them but do not give them incentives or advantages. Or allow 1100cc inline 4s or create a new vtwin class and see if the Japanese step upto the plate. It should not be the charter of an organization to give advantages to inferior design through displacement advantage, AMA has it right (if even there is a disadvantage to the ducati design, Bayliss seems to prove otherwise) the charter should be to create new classes for bikes that are not able to compete with an accepted design for the class IMHO of course.

The AMA is not guiltless though, they allowed in motocross/SX to allow 4 strokes double the displacement to allow them to compete. Then when fast riders were still able to ride 2 strokes faster, they envoked fuel restrictions that made it so 2 strokes could no longer compete. AMA should not dictate this but it does seem to be what they have done. Again a mistake IMHO

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Frank,

We've been over this 100 times, and I think you're going to see this be an OK thing for FIM. Everyone said they'd lost their minds when they instituted the spec tire, and that's turned out to be a good thing.

Here you eliminate the double standard that's existed in terms of modification in WSBK for a lot of years. The engines currently in the ducatis are much closer to GP spec motors than typical superbike motors. The AMA didn't allow the same engine mods the FIM did, which is why the Ducati never was competitive here. Also the twin currently has a weight penalty and an intake restriction by the new rules, something that is up for review and subject to change to make the bikes competitive with each other. That doesn't exist in the current rule structure, so I say you should throw down and rejoice. It's going to make the series more interesting, not less so.

s

EDIT: While the Ducati is a great bike, the reason Bayliss is winning these days is because he's simply the best rider out there. Doubt this statement? Check last season's final GP race result...

Hey Scott.

Actually, I think the "spec" tire was a failure. Lap times were 2-3 sec slower. Who wants to see slower races, just so more people can race together? Sounds like NASCRAP. If they were going to do that, at least make the spec tire a Michelin.

It's only about a 12lb penalty, and I'm sure they're going to make the bikes underweight, and simply add the ballast where they want it. 12lbs won't overcome a 20% displacement increase, and the allowance of non-stock throttle bodies, and whatever else they're given. For sure, Bayliss is a big step above all the other guys, and seemingly a totally cool guy as well, but Ducati's dominance goes way back to the Raymond Roche(sp?) days. The series has pretty much been dominated since it's start, as the original formula was flawed because they never thought the twins would rev so high. They've won what, 15 out of the 20 years? I'd say something is going on there way before Bayliss arrived.

In F1, when Ford was running a V-8 in the Benetton against Ferrari's V12, they weren't given a displacement advantage, let alone 20%!!! The Ferrari was more powerful, but more thirsty, and reguired longer/more stops. The Ford lost a little on the top, but was more torquey off the bottom, and had less/shorter stops. It was a trade-off that worked on some tracks, and made the racing very interesting because of the different sounds. I can see this increase being worse for racing, because the Japanese mfg's might decide to pull out again. Honestly, with that kind of v-twin dominance, I'm surprised they haven't already. I'll bet we'll see a lot of protesting of these rules by the big 4.

[The Black Knight]

Hey Scott.

Actually, I think the "spec" tire was a failure. Lap times were 2-3 sec slower. Who wants to see slower races, just so more people can race together? Sounds like NASCRAP. If they were going to do that, at least make the spec tire a Michelin.

I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see Michelin as the main tire. With the garbage they are churning out in MotoGP, one would imagine that it would be the same if not worse in World SBK. Since it's a lesser class of racing. I've never liked Michelin and last year they really proved themselves as worthy with the total crap Rossi was given. It's always nice to see big chunks of the tire fly off at race speeds.

If I were to honestly say which series has the most competative racing it'd be hands down WSBK. Those guys are ruthless out there. Their racing is so filthy isn't not even funny. They always bring their A-game and they scrap from flag to flag.

I'm not saying MotoGP isn't filled with action, just not as much and it seems sometimes as they guys really are out there just riding to ride. How else does Colin Edwards win pole then get shuffled to the back of the pack? There is a definite lack of enthusiasm in MotoGP from some riders. However in WSBK seems that a good portion of the riders are there to ride and ride hard. Regardless of where they are on the track, they dice it up the whole time.

I'm not even going to comment much on AMA. I love American racing, but it's bland. It's the Suzuki show, which for me being a Suzuki rider I like, but there isn't any competition. So that is fun for like the first couple of races then it's old. I love seeing one brand dominate, but I like to see the other brands fight for it as well. Meaning they can challenge the dominant brand. In AMA you don't get that. Supremacy is great for WAR, but not in Motocycle Racing.

Hence why NASCAR is so popular and will continue to be so popular. Those guys are nasty. They slam each other and really just push it. Sure it's lame going in circles. But at least they don't mind trading paint. Which is something I can't say for Formula 1. Which I'm a huge fan of, but Formula 1 is full of primadonnas that whine at the first sign of a bump or getting tapped. They do whine like little girls, I realize it's open wheel racing and that damage to suspension needs to be avoided, but don't complain just because you were run wide or got slightly bumped. At least the boys in NECKCAR bring their A-game and don't mind growing a set and throwing down when it comes race time.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I'm not sure I'd be too happy to see Michelin as the main tire. With the garbage they are churning out in MotoGP, one would imagine that it would be the same if not worse in World SBK. Since it's a lesser class of racing. I've never liked Michelin and last year they really proved themselves as worthy with the total crap Rossi was given. It's always nice to see big chunks of the tire fly off at race speeds.
If I remember correctly, the worst tire mishap I saw was on Nakano's Kawi, and he was running a Bridgestone. That think came completely apart at almost 200mph. Throwing chunks of tire is nothing new when you've got 200hp+. I remember it happening in the Lawson/Rainey/Schwantz days. Michelin has been the dominant tire in both series for a long time, and I just hated to see things slow down so much.

If I were to honestly say which series has the most competative racing it'd be hands down WSBK. Those guys are ruthless out there. Their racing is so filthy isn't not even funny. They always bring their A-game and they scrap from flag to flag.
Did you see Rossi's pass on Gibernau a few years ago, or Toni Elias's pass on Rossi (or anyone else)? Did you see the last MotoGP where Rossi had to keep stuffing it down the inside of Stoner, only for Stoner to run away on the straights? I'd say everyone is bringing their A game. 1st always pays better than 2nd, etc. I think all the races this seaso have been exciting. Well, except for Nicky, unfortunately.....

I'm not saying MotoGP isn't filled with action, just not as much and it seems sometimes as they guys really are out there just riding to ride. How else does Colin Edwards win pole then get shuffled to the back of the pack? There is a definite lack of enthusiasm in MotoGP from some riders. However in WSBK seems that a good portion of the riders are there to ride and ride hard. Regardless of where they are on the track, they dice it up the whole time.

I'm not even going to comment much on AMA. I love American racing, but it's bland. It's the Suzuki show, which for me being a Suzuki rider I like, but there isn't any competition. So that is fun for like the first couple of races then it's old. I love seeing one brand dominate, but I like to see the other brands fight for it as well. Meaning they can challenge the dominant brand. In AMA you don't get that. Supremacy is great for WAR, but not in Motocycle Racing.
Yeah, it's been kind of a runaway, but the rules are the same for everyone else, unlike in WSB. Like Mladin said once, it's up to the other guys in the series to step it up and bring the fight to them, not up to the Suzuki guys to sandbag so all the other riders can catch up. Here's something: why is it that Tommy-Gun is on the same bike as Mladin or Spies, but finishes 4-or worse, behind Yates? Think maybe rider skill is involved?

Hence why NASCAR is so popular and will continue to be so popular. Those guys are nasty. They slam each other and really just push it. Sure it's lame going in circles. But at least they don't mind trading paint. Which is something I can't say for Formula 1. Which I'm a huge fan of, but Formula 1 is full of primadonnas that whine at the first sign of a bump or getting tapped. They do whine like little girls, I realize it's open wheel racing and that damage to suspension needs to be avoided, but don't complain just because you were run wide or got slightly bumped. At least the boys in NECKCAR bring their A-game and don't mind growing a set and throwing down when it comes race time.
I think NASCRAP is popular for the same reason WWF wrasseling, Jerry Springer, or a car accident are so popular to watch: we are a nation filled with the lowest common denominator!

See above....

[The Black Knight]

As far as the tire thing, I was referring to when Rossi had that huge chunk of tire missing from his front tire. And it seemed like the whole 2006 season plagued him with bad tires. I realize everyone has their day when they just get junk and can't get motivated to even mount a decent charge, but his unfortunate pick of tires was a little bit much. Seemed like someone deliberately chose crappy tires for him.

I didn't say everyone in MotoGP didn't bring their A-Game. I'm a huge Rossi fan and I know he's always on the ball. As with a few others like Stoner, Pedrosa, Capirossi(well not this year) and Gibernau when he was healthy. Those guys are nails when it came time to scrap. And I think the paragrapyh after the one you responded to answered it. I do feel that there is some serious racing in MotoGP,BUT! from a select few. I'm diehard MotoGP fan and I love it when they dice. Mugello seems like every year it always churns out a brutal fight for the end. Other races are just mediocre. I know I'll get flack for this, but I really feel that Laguna Seca is a boring track. It's too small for the big bikes. You've got AMA Superbikes running 3 or 4 seconds behind MotoGP. Moto Freaking GP bikes are getting heat put on them by AMA Superbikes. Are you kidding me?? First off AMA riders aren't that good. Second it's the track. When you've got a small track that hampers the long legged bikes of MotoGP of course you'll see the track times plunge. I'm sure the 800cc's will fair better because of their added agility. But when the F1 of bike racing comes to America, we throw at them Laguna Seca? At least Miller in Utah would have been a better choice. Or something that's bigger then the same size as PMI.

I agree with you totally about AMA and what Mladin said. It's true the rest of the pack need to do something and do it now. It's Mladin, Spies and then those other guys in the field(obvious privateers aren't added into this mix). It's strickly the factory teams that can't delivery. The thing with Yates being so fast is well he might as well be on a factory bike. I mean he's got Micheal Jordan as his owner of the team. Dude is endless supply of money. With Jordan scratching the checks in that team you know Yates doesn't mind riding for Jordan. Their bikes will only get better.

I've also got to agree with you on the wrestling, Springer and car accident. It does appeal to the "not so bright" crowd. Though NASCAR isn't much above it. I wouldn't lump it completely with "Low I.Q." television as it does have a huge following of people that are not all complete morons. I mainly used NASCAR as a reference to being the complete opposite of Formula 1 in that the races are dirty and everyone trades paint all day long. You get bumped in F1 and they cry foul. It's like Fernando Alonso's comments on Rossi coming to F1. About how "unimpressed he is with Rossi." or how "slow Rossi is compared to actual race pace." Uhhh Alonso? Rossi was clicking off laps 3 to 4 seconds behind you and Shuey race laps. So for a guy that hasn't raced a F1 car that's pretty good. I especially like how Alonso said if he had some time on a MotoGP bike he'd be able to run Rossi and it wouldn't be much of a challenge. Alonso you might want to rethink that, because when Rossi challenged him to a best out of three racing, MotoGP, Formula 1 and Rally Car, Alonso wasn't around for comment. The fact is Rossi would own Alonso. Ripping on Rossi isn't a smart thing to do. In fact Orenthal thinks that's a bad idea...

Anyways C_M I wasn't bagging on you or your post. I honestly like seeing Pirelli in the mix. I'll admit it, when it comes to tires it puts everyone on a level playing field. I was saying that WSBK is very competative, MotoGP almost as competative and AMA well AMA is AMA.

[tarded400]

I don't know if an XBRR has finished a race yet... I hope one has. I agree with the inferior design Darwinism comment. If ducati builds a street bike that costs 3 times as much as a bike with 20 or 30 more hp, they should be able to come up with a great working race bike. I hate these special rules given to bad bikes. We'll just have to see what happens though... might be good.

[dillinger09]

ducati does make a V4 that meets the requirements to race in WSBK..............noone wants them to bring that. bayliss has a 14hp defecit on most of the I4's, he is just an insanely talented rider, but this argument will never end. i think its a good move by the FIM and i dont own a ducati

[Canuck]

This was a quote from one of the Ducati Boards.

"I really wish people would read more of the details before they rush to judgements like this. The Ducs have been allowed significant tuning advantages in the past that the I-4s were not allowed (aftermarket cranks and rods for example). Ducati offered to give up these "unfair" tuning advantages (which cost them a lot of money to race with) in exchange for a displacement adjustment. They also agreed to additional weight and intake restrictors. Seems like a pretty fair deal and the other manufacturers agree."

I believe that that sums it up quite nicely.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

ducati does make a V4 that meets the requirements to race in WSBK..............noone wants them to bring that. bayliss has a 14hp defecit on most of the I4's, he is just an insanely talented rider, but this argument will never end. i think its a good move by the FIM and i dont own a ducati

Actually, they don't. To be eligeable for WSB, they need to produce 3,000 street-legal units, which far exceeds the Desmosedeici. Don't get me wrong though, I'd LOVE to see that run there.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

This was a quote from one of the Ducati Boards.

"I really wish people would read more of the details before they rush to judgements like this. The Ducs have been allowed significant tuning advantages in the past that the I-4s were not allowed (aftermarket cranks and rods for example). Ducati offered to give up these "unfair" tuning advantages (which cost them a lot of money to race with) in exchange for a displacement adjustment. They also agreed to additional weight and intake restrictors. Seems like a pretty fair deal and the other manufacturers agree."

I believe that that sums it up quite nicely.

Well, We'll see. I'm sure that Ducati wouldn't be giving up these unfair advantages unless they felt the displacement bump was an equal or better advantage (same HP for less cost, for example). Simple Engineering decision.

[rybo]

Well, We'll see. I'm sure that Ducati wouldn't be giving up these unfair advantages unless they felt the displacement bump was an equal or better advantage (same HP for less cost, for example). Simple Engineering decision.

I see it in a slightly different way. I think it's a marketing decision. The 1098 is LESS money than it's predecessors and offers greater performance. That is the bike Ducati wants getting attention on the track. If they REALLY were interested in whooping ass by unfair advantage in WSBK they would have homolagated the Desmosedici.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I see it in a slightly different way. I think it's a marketing decision. The 1098 is LESS money than it's predecessors and offers greater performance. That is the bike Ducati wants getting attention on the track. If they REALLY were interested in whooping ass by unfair advantage in WSBK they would have homolagated the Desmosedici.

Marketing decision too. They have a performance image that would be totally damaged if their latest&greatest "racebike" wasn't able to race anywhere! I still don't like the existing rules breaks, and the new ones are worse. Give them a strict displacement limit, and let them compensate with revs to get the power.

I'd love to see the 'Sedeici run, but it would be a HUGE financial effort for them to build 3,000 of them. Also, the HP levels would, of course, be a lot lower than seen in MotoGP, and I'd say what they listed for the street versions is probably inflated. I'm sure the WSB inline-4's are 200+. I'd love to see it though, as then it would push the Japanese to even greater things, elevating the performance for all of us (albeit at a cost). The only thing would be the price issue. Now, I'd like to see the big 4 come out with money no object "specials" like that. Who wouldn't like to see those MotoGP-like exotics on the street? Although then, you'd get into the problem of your MotoGP bikes not being legal to race as the rules state "non-production" bikes. Oh, them pesky rules.....

We don't agree, but it's nice debating this with those that CAN debate such things without resorting to name-calling.

Good on ya mate!

[dillinger09]

i think that 3,000 sold is for 2010. i believe that the requirements are still 1,000 bikes sold to race next year..........already 1,200 desmo's sold

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

i think that 3,000 sold is for 2010. i believe that the requirements are still 1,000 bikes sold to race next year..........already 1,200 desmo's sold

Um, I don't think they're gonna make 3,000 of the 'Sedeici's, ever. I'm not sure of how many they DID make, but I really don't think it's even close to that.

[rybo]

For 2008 all manufacturers have to produce a minimum of 1,000 units in order to race them as Superbikes.