Group Riding Etiquette

[mtnairlover]

I love it...ha!

Now, what you need is how to identify what is "pro", "expert"...etc.

Too funny.

Edit: In talking with peeps the past coupla weeks, they woulda never guessed I've been riding 2 years, one of those years on my Zed...soooo...hmmm...

[TMP]

Exactly!!!!!!!! I'm not too good at that type of stuff so if anyone has some good ideas, feel free to share.

[mtnairlover]

Not too sure what to start with, but how about level of comfort in the twisties? And, personally, comfort doesn't come with how many years on 2 wheels. I'm all about mountain riding, so my input might be a tad limited, too.

[TMP]

Great idea, I can change up the chart any which way..... Maybe it should be called: "Twisties Comfort Zone" cuz the more you ride 'em the quicker your pace. Still needs some sort of definitions tho.

[dm_gsxr]

Just base it on the group ride leaders:

Pro - Passes Pilot on Pilot hosted group rides
Expert - Keeps up with Pilot or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
Intermediate - Keeps up with Daemon/Mtnairlover or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
Amateur - Keeps up with ChaiOnKaw
Noob - Hasn't been on a group ride yet

I used riders I've ridden with so feel free to substitute where you know better

Carl

[tarded400]

Experience is just one part of the pace. I used to drag knee regularly at the track, but in the canyons I choose not to because of the added dangers.

[TMP]

What about people that don't know these riders????
Noob is perfect - never been on a group ride.
More of that type of stuff would make this more universal.

[King Nothing]

It sux to go on a group ride that doesn't fit your skill level wether it be too fast or too slow... maybe collectively we could come up with some sort of rating system like the Homeland Security Levels... HAHAHAH LOL!!!!

I jacked their chart and made a similar version for "PACE". Now maybe some brief definitions of the categories relating to years of riding expereince, mph over, canyon carving experience........ I'm a photoshop addict and thought this was funny, and then thought this might actually be useful!?!?!?!?!?

Man, I HAD to borrow your pic.

[Nick_Ninja]

Just base it on the group ride leaders:

Pro - Passes Pilot on Pilot hosted group rides
Expert - Keeps up with Pilot or catches up in less than 2 minutes at the next break
<snip>

http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forum...081#post192081

[mtnairlover]

You're gonna get lots of opinions, I can tell. And yep, I'm gonna add mine. No, you can't base levels on people, so I was thinking about the different group rides I've been on and thinking about how each rider has performed in the canyons/on the roads.

If you can shorten this up, maybe it might shine a better light. Some quick/comfortable riders go all out in the canyons, speeding up in the straights only to hit the brakes hard before the turns. Some comfy/quick riders keep an even pace on the straights and let off the throttle into the turn and back on the throttle before coming out of the turn. Some canyons, it's easy to do between 65 and 80 mph in, including the turns. Some canyons/more like sweepers, it's easy to do 85 mph up to over 100 mph. Then, there's switchbacks, like the ones at the top of Devil's Gulch Road out of Glen Haven, where I won't even do better then 20mph...it's just to freakin scary.

There's levels of comfort in all ranges, from comfy at speed limit, to comfy at 10mph over, to comfy at 20mph over and +. I would say that some riders have a cruiser attitude on the roads, whereas some riders have a racer attitude and then there's all those in between.

If peeps are comfy draggin knee on the roads/canyons, should they be considered "Pro"...IMO, nope. Draggin knee is for the track only. To me, someone who is "Pro" has been there, done that and refuses to let competition fuel his ride out on the open road.

I could go on and on and I'm betting lots of others would have their own spin on the chart as well. So, I guess I could say that I'm kinda stuck at this point.

[mtnairlover]

One addition to the "racer attitude" comment...I bumped into an MRA racer at the credit union in Loveland last year when my Zed still had its scars from my crash. His bike also had some road rash. He remarked that he did that in the canyons recently and said he shoulda known better than to try and "race" in the canyons and shoulda saved it for the track. That's the kind of person I consider "Pro"...someone who knows when to "race", but more than that, that he/she practices what they preach.

[Matty]

http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/groupRide.asp

excerpt:

1) The first thing you want to do is organize the ride. This can be as informal as standing around in a parking lot, or as complicated as a special meeting to hand out maps and cellphone numbers.

2) Remember that riding in a group does not mean you surrender any decision making when it comes to your safety. Ride your own ride, and don't go any faster than you feel comfortable going.

3) When picking your route and the stops you'll make along it, consider the stamina of the group, the experience of all the riders, and the limits of the motorcycles in the group. Remember, these are your friends. If it's going to be a long ride, be sure to have a few break stops along the way.

4) You'll need to communicate while on the ride, so make sure everyone knows the signals you'll use.

5) When creating your formation, it's wise to have your experienced riders at the lead and running sweep. Consider positioning the less experienced riders immediately behind the leader. This allows the front rider to adjust the pace if necessary.

6) Ideally, the sweep rider will have a cellphone to call for help if a motorcycle is disabled, or if there has been an accident.

7) If the goal of the ride is to keep the group together, the leader should only go at the pace of the least experienced rider.

While riding, don't fixate on the motorcycle in front of you. Instead, remember your basic training. Look well through the turn to where you want to go.

9) If the group is riding faster than you are comfortable with, let the sweep rider know you're dropping out and ride at your own pace. So you may reach your destination a few seconds behind the others, but you will get there, and that's what's important. Keep in mind, it's all about fun.

10) All riders are also responsible for making sure their motorcycles are mechanically up to the task. Before you even meet up with the group, make sure you've got plenty of fuel in the tank, and you've taken care of all those maintenance issues. Not sure what to check? Use T-CLOCK. You really don't want to be the reason for stopping the group for something mechanical you could have prevented.

11) If it's going to be a large group, consider establishing a buddy system among the riders, or divide the group into smaller five- or seven-rider packs. That way, if something goes wrong, you don't have 25 motorcycles sitting on the side of a busy highway. Also, smaller groups can more easily navigate through city streets.

12) On the road, motorcyclists should have at least a 2-second cushion in front and behind them. If you want to keep the group tight, consider a staggered formation. Leave enough room per lane so each rider can maneuver side-to-side if need be. Avoid side-by-side formations as they shrink your space cushion.

13) Trikes and sidecars should stay in the center of the lane, and should be given the same amount of cushion as if they were a car.

14) As turns get sharper, or as visibility decreases, move back to a single file formation. You'll also want to use single file when entering or exiting a highway, at toll booths, or when roads have a rough or questionable surface.

15) At intersections where you've come to a stop, tighten the formation to side-by-side to take up less space. As the light turns green, or when traffic opens up, the bike on the left proceeds through first.

16) Remember we share the road with many other vehicles, and it's against the law to block an intersection.

17) When parking, try to get the group off the roadway as quickly as possible. If you can, arrange in advance to have pull-through parking at your destination, or at the very least, make sure there is ample parking for your size group.

[Matty]

Go Fast... Safely
Riding a sportbike on the street is only as dangerous as you make it

Nick Ienatsch

Reprinted w/o permission as originally published in Sportbike, 2002.

Your phone rings and a guy you faintly remember from school invites you on a group sport ride to the cafe in a neighboring town. Do you go?
Many of you wouldn't. You've ridden with relative strangers before, and it's always been a crapshoot of stupid passes, blind-spot following distances, ill-timed wheelies and the constant impression of disaster waiting around the next corner. Perhaps one of your group rides has ended by the side of the road as you haul one of the gang up the embankment and then head home to get your truck. You thank your school friend, decline his invitation and ride alone the next day.
Don't get me wrong, riding alone is elixir for a motorcyclist's mind, but most would agree that riding with the right group beats riding alone any day. So how do you find the right group? You make it.

Communication is the key
Communication within a riding group takes two forms: verbal and physical. The verbal comes first, before the ride even starts. "Where are we going? Do you want to take the 120 cut-off or just run on the freeway to Hudson Street? Pat, why don't you lead because most of us have never been there before? Hey, be aware of the fact that my brake light bulb just burned out."
Keep talking. "Who wants to lead going out of Marysville? Okay, John, after you lead awhile, wave someone else by so you don't hog the lead. Whoever is leading when we get on that long downhill before the bridge, look out for radar. Let's swap the lead every 5 miles or so. Keep an eye on Todd because he's brand-new. And Todd, be mellow and ride your own pace. Treat that yellow centerline like a cliff."
Offer suggestions and opinions. "I think the best way to do this is to ride in a staggered formation with the leader on the left side of the lane. In the twisties, everyone uses the whole lane, but give the rider ahead of you some room, okay? When we get into town, close up the formation so we can all make the lights. When we get out on Highway 12 we might come up on slower traffic, so make sure each of us has a clear pass. Don't go just because the rider ahead of you goes. Remember what happened to Chuck."

From the mouth to the hand
Once the bikes are moving, verbal communication isn't particularly useful unless everyone is on CB or helmet-to-helmet radios. It's now up to the hands (or feet) to communicate vital information, such as hazards in the road, riding formations, etc. But no matter how great your hand signals get, don't forget to talk about problems and potential problems. I've always felt it's better to get things out in the open than to bite my tongue and regret it later. A good example is not mentioning another rider's careless passes, and that rider later causing an accident. I believe in saying it now, as tactfully as possible. If the rider takes offense and leaves, the problem is solved.
It's better to ride alone than with the wrong group.

Small corrections or a high-side
Constant communication about riding group problems and potential problems can be compared to sliding the rear tire of a motorcycle. As the tire breaks loose and you catch it immediately by making steering and throttle corrections, the slide stays small and quite controllable. If you ignore the initial slide, it gets bigger-and harder to control. Ignore it long enough, and the bike goes completely sideways and then regains traction to high-side you to the moon. Catch those slides quick and early. Talk all the time.
Certain rules will save lives and hassles. Like staying to the right of the centerline except to pass. Like passing only when you see that it's clear. Like limiting straight-line speed to a pre-set limit. Like following the leader. Like never passing a fellow group rider until you are signaled past on the left. Like waving to everyone who moves over for you on a mountain road. Like waiting for everyone on the straights, where speed is too easy and cops too plentiful.

Which brings us to The Pace
The Pace was invented one day when Motorcyclist magazine Editor Mitch Boehm and I were lost in the Santa Monica Mountains and hit upon a super-fun style of riding. We were both on the latest, greatest sportbikes that were equally at home on the racetrack, yet we both instinctively knew that racetrack speeds were deadly on the street.
The rhythm we fell into was cool on the straights and fun in the corners. After all, the most common solo streetbike crash comes from too much entrance speed, and a ton of straightaway speed is usually the reason the entrance is blown. Riders learn how to accelerate real well, but their braking and trailbraking techniques aren't up to par, resulting in a ruined and sometimes disastrous entrance.
When I analyzed our new pace, I saw that our straightaway speeds were relatively low, compared to what the bikes were capable of. Another reason for these slower speeds was our ticket situation, which wasn't particularly admirable. Think about it: Big speed usually happens in a straight line, and the police have that figured out. Our new pace took away that straight-line throttle overuse, and saved the fun for the corners, with occasional full-throttle blasts up freeway on-ramps or other relatively safe environments.
As The Pace permeated our riding, it rubbed off on the group we rode with. The straight sections became a chance to relax and actually look at the scenery a bit, but more importantly, reset the ranks of the group. We'd often use the straights to trade the lead or simply giggle about the last set of corners, or the next.
Because the lead changes frequently, the pace of the group does, too. Remember, if you can't follow the leader, no one will follow your lead. A slower leader just means you can relax and work on your riding techniques, while a quick leader means the straights will work perfectly to reform the group.
Rushing the entrance of corners just doesn't work. It doesn't work on the track, and it doesn't work on the street. By running real-world speed on the straight parts, the next corner doesn't come at you at speeds above your ability. In fact, you will enjoy street riding so much more when you eliminate the racetrack speeds. Trust me, I've been at the top of the AMA SuperTeams and 250cc Grand Prix ranks, and racetrack speed is simply not manageable on the street.
Let's face it, modern motorcycles are so blindingly fast that a few seconds of wide-open throttle generates triple-digit speeds. Speed alone isn't dangerous; if it was, everyone running at the Bonneville Salt Flats would die every year. However, speed adds drama to even small mistakes, and speed lessens the amount of time we have to react. American drivers don't expect a motorcycle to be traveling at super-legal speeds, meaning that the minivan that pulled into a motorcyclist's path may not have been a problem if the bike was traveling at sane speeds. Remember this simple truth: more speed, more problems.
A good way to regulate the speed of your group is to discuss speed limits and set a maximum speed. You might be on a road with some long, fast sections, but because a few of the turns are blind, it might not be prudent to traverse that section at 120 mph. At that speed, you're covering 176 feet every second-yikes! You might want to agree to run no more than 65 mph on the straight, boring stuff. Setting a speed limit helps keep the group intact and the pace sane. My survival and enjoyment (and love) of street riding comes from an adherence to this concept of controlled speed. Are you ready for another simple truth? You can't go fast everywhere, all the time.

[Matty]

This ain't a race
The street is for riding to breakfast with friends. Notice I wrote with friends, not against friends. Big, huge difference. The track is for racing, where there are cornerworkers, ambulances, no oncoming traffic, no gravel, no cops, no trees, no guardrails, no centerlines, no dogs, no deer. Get the picture?
Riding with friends means keeping an eye on them. If you haven't seen your buddy in the mirror for 2 miles or 2 minutes, slow down until you do. If everyone does this, the group will naturally stay together, and it will save valuable time in case someone does have a problem and needs help.
If you're riding with a group that makes every ride a race, get away from them right now because the smallest street accident is usually significantly more devastating than any racetrack crash, and riders running a race-pace on the street will crash. You don't want to be there when it happens.
I can guarantee you that I've heard every excuse for not racing, but when a street rider is pushing all the time, using a lot of motor and brakes and riding with a deliberately competitive attitude and then gives reasons for not racing, it's pure BS. Racetracks are available, race clubs are established and the competition is waiting. Once a rider discovers the speeds of the racetrack, the dangers of fast street riding will be put into perspective.
Insanely fast street riders are simply the riders willing to risk the most. On a track, the obstacles are known and consistent; the track doesn't change and few outside forces enter the picture unexpectedly. A stopwatch gauges speed and races determine the fastest man of the day. It's a finite world that rewards skill.
The street, however, is exactly the opposite. There are no rewards for speed, no consistency in the surroundings and outside forces are too close and too frequently changing. A racetrack settles the question of who's best, but racing on the street simply answers the question: Who really doesn't care what happens? My friend put it best when he said, "I only race for money and points." Those aren't available in the canyons.

Let me be clear
When you get right down to it, riders who race on the street yet won't race at the track are cowards. Perhaps they've been to the track and discovered that their brand of fast didn't hold a candle to what was available at the track. Perhaps they can't stand getting bested. Perhaps they're not willing to work on their riding. Perhaps they discovered that the purity of the track exposed all their riding flaws. Perhaps they like to be a bullying fish in a small pond. Whatever. The bottom line: If you're riding flat-out on the street, you must take it to the track. Don't be a coward.
Sorry to preach, but here's the problem. Our government wants to protect us from ourselves through helmet laws, seatbelt laws, airbag enforcement, speed limits ... and those saviors might decide to regulate motorcycling. And that will definitely hurt our sport. So, you hurting you actually hurts us all, and it's my feeling that big speed on the street is the primary culprit. So I preach a bit.
You'd preach, too, if a California Highway Patrolman told you to turn your bike around and leave the area.
That happened to me about 400 yards above the famous Rock Store in Malibu, California, because the cops were finally fed up with motorcycles racing up and down Mulholland Highway. They decided to simply close the road to all motorcycles, all day Sunday. As a motorcyclist, I felt the noose tightening. As a journalist, I decided to try and make a difference. The way I saw it, we could save ourselves or be regulated into cars. I hope The Pace gives you a way to enjoy a modern sportbike's incredible potential without threatening your life on every ride.
Your group should arrive at breakfast together. That's significant. Races finish first through last, but street rides shouldn't. Ours don't. Sitting in the mountains, sipping coffee with friends, looking at the blue sky over a sea of bikes... Heaven.

Excerpted from the forthcoming book, Sport Riding Techniques, by Nick Ienatsch, available in autumn 2002 from David Bull Publishing, www.bullpublishing.com

[TMP]

Canyon riding gets better and better the smoother you get. I'm not too comfy in the super tight 15 mph twisties unless I'm going 15mph, but feel good on the 30mph curves going much faster. I like the idea of how fast the pace is going in relation to the posted speed limit (in canyons).... I saw a guy the other day on Deer Creek pull away from me in the tight twisties in 2 turns..... I ever did see him again. He was rollin like an Expert and I felt like an Amateur. LOL!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't want to be in the same group canyon ride with that guy 'til I get smoother and more confident.

If there are any better suggestions for the classes let them be known. Some people may not like Expert or Pro and there may be something more fitting.

[mtnairlover]

Sitting in the mountains, sipping coffee with friends, looking at the blue sky over a sea of bikes... Heaven.

[Matty]

Canyon riding gets better and better the smoother you get. I'm not too comfy in the super tight 15 mph twisties unless I'm going 15mph, but feel good on the 30mph curves going much faster. I like the idea of how fast the pace is going in relation to the posted speed limit (in canyons)....

haven't had a chance to ride the canyons out here. but back home the rule of thumb was you should be able to double the posted recommended speed for a turn. ex. if the turn sign says 25 and you're about an intermediate or higher rider you should be able to do 50 no problem.

[clustermagnet]

well, as my riding "career" progresses, I find myself riding with less and less people

at first, i stayed away from the obvious "temp taggers","undressed","stunters" and "ruff riders"... which were obvious threat to everyone's well being...

then it moved to "anyone that rides in the city"... "canyon bashers only"... and only the 3 people i trusted... they are the only ones who could really keep up...

then the track came along... whooo hooo was i slow

... then i started hating the "street group"...

lap times kept dropping!

now i stay the fuk away from people with street plastics


i am sure the list is yet to groww... Im sure you pro racers hate the yellow backgrounds...


and the list is shrinking!!! unfortunately... each one of these "upgrades" came to me at some cost or another... either losing a dear friend... or simply watching other people whack off

and no... in no way i will ever think that "i am too good"... completely the opposite!! i will always be the first guy to help anyone out... its just this list above kept me alive and well for the past years... sorry if i've offended anyone

[Matty]

clustermagnet.

everyone has their own choice on who to ride with.

in the canyons, there's only a few people i ride with. like you, they're the only ones that i trust riding fast in the canyons with. but i also enjoy riding in big groups, and sometimes, i'd even rather just ride by myself.



what i'm wondering is? what did your comment below mean about the people in my club???

at first, i stayed away from the obvious "temp taggers","undressed","stunters" and "ruff riders"... which were obvious threat to everyone's well being...

[clustermagnet]

clustermagnet.

everyone has their own choice on who to ride with.

in the canyons, there's only a few people i ride with. like you, they're the only ones that i trust riding fast in the canyons with. but i also enjoy riding in big groups, and sometimes, i'd even rather just ride by myself.



what i'm wondering is? what did your comment below mean about the people in my club???

well, i certainly did not mean to offend anyone...

furthermore, its only a few bad apples that spoil things

but if you care to know...


this is why



(came from your site)

with that said... i have no problem with you guys doing what you do...

actually your community efforts are FUCKING AWESOME, and i wish more clubs would do the same you guys do...

i just chose not to ride on 1.) street 2.) with anyone not wearing gear ( and not just a helmet)

soooo, getting back to original topic...

[noskills]

The witness of this incident had no issue with speaking up about the 'momentary laps of reasoning' and basically gave the squidly maneuver a solid .

Not sure if this was refering to me or not but I didn't mean to come off rude. My few years working the field taught me SUV vs. Bike is no good, and watching it happen is worse. Scared the crap out of me! My fear turned to poor attitude and came across as asshole. Sorry , I know I've done a few bonehead moves before.

[Nick_Ninja]

The witness of this incident had no issue with speaking up about the 'momentary laps of reasoning' and basically gave the squidly maneuver a solid .

Not sure if this was refering to me or not but I didn't mean to come off rude. My few years working the field taught me SUV vs. Bike is no good, and watching it happen is worse. Scared the crap out of me! Me fear turned to poor attitude and came across as asshole. Sorry , I know I've done a few bonehead moves before.

Not you. Don't worry.

[Matty]

well, i certainly did not mean to offend anyone...

furthermore, its only a few bad apples that spoil things

but if you care to know...


this is why



(came from your site)

with that said... i have no problem with you guys doing what you do...

actually your community efforts are FUCKING AWESOME, and i wish more clubs would do the same you guys do...

i just chose not to ride on 1.) street 2.) with anyone not wearing gear ( and not just a helmet)

soooo, getting back to original topic...

Trust me... i'm not on here to start a fight or argument with anyone. i just moved out here last week, and i'm just looking for people to ride Canyons, Street, and Track with.

i wouldn't call them bad apples. it's their way of riding. they'd rather stunt than hit the track or the twisties.


depending on where people are riding i'm not to fond of people riding without gear on as well, however it's one's choice. trust me i come from california, and it's tripping me out seeing people riding without their lids on. 1)you'll never see me without one. 2) when it comes to canyons, you'll never see me without gear on.

but in the street. No. i won't always be covered head to toe in leather.


i too have been riding many years. and what i do and how i choose to ride, is what keeps me around to enjoy many more.

[Sortarican]

...In talking with peeps the past coupla weeks, they woulda never guessed I've been riding 2 years, one of those years on my Zed...soooo...hmmm...

You've been riding that long?
I would have guessed you just got the temp tags off.

J/K,
I can recall riding at about the limit of my street comfort level to keep up with Cathy only to noticing she was balancing her checkbook and txt messaging friends on her cell while navigating a decreasing radius turn.
(Yes she's that quick...and yes, I'm that slow. )