Track Day Help. Technique Help.

[UglyDogRacing]

Jim's a big poopiehead. He just blew by me and vanished into the distance. I guess that's how you get a top ten # on your bike!!

Happy belated Bday Jim, hope you had fun riding on your birthday.

[racedk6]

Jim when I get my suspension figured out we need to go out and run some more laps.

I need to figure out T3 bad Im losing lots of time through there

[jimwallace]

Good points about traction. But too much braking, with no other inputs will usually cause a push, rather than a tuck. The tuck will be induced when traction is low, and the road or rider put additional inputs into the system



I can't say I agree. It may cause you to turn sharper than you intended, but not make you crash. If this were the case, then everyone leaning way off in 7 would be crashing, because they are going slower than turn 1, but leaning just as far. Now, if someone panicked because they were turning too sharp, and didn't adjust properly, thats another story.

i would like to see you go slow and lean way off your bike and then turn, you will very likely fall down. my point was that your lean has to be equivalent to your speed, yes you may be right about turn 1 and turn 7 but try staying the same lean and going even slower......they do corrolate. there has to be enough momentum to counteract the effect of gravity/your body weight.

You should be linear on the throttle from the apex to the exit. Start smoothly rolling on the throttle once you're off the brakes. As your lean angle decreases coming out of the corner, your throttle delivery should be increasing. If you wait till the moment before you start to rise from your lean and get on it, you are asking for a highside to happen.



You should never be coasting through a turn. You should be smooth on the brakes going in and, once off the brakes, smoothly rolling on the throttle coming out. If you find yourself coasting then back off a little and practice the transition from the brakes to the throttle.

well, yes coasting was a bad word, chain should be tight without any acceleration or deceleration, but i am trying to make things as understandable as possible, since i am not a magician with words. but you are absolutely correct.

This is not fine. You shouldnt be trying throw your weight off alot in order to get your knee down. Getting your knee down will come in time once your corner speed is at a point that the lean angle of the bike needs to be greater and your body's center of gravity needs to lower. The first thing you should be concerned with regarding body position is that you are moving your head and shoulder towards the inside. The rest of your body hanging off will be a gradual procession as your speed and lean angle increase.

I disagree with you. it is fine..... so is crashing, we learn from our mistakes even better than our successes, as long as we learn. if you want to do something than do it but be prepared to accept the consequences. TIPYS has not once ( as far as i know) tried to lay blame for his accident anywhere else. he is simply trying to figure out what went wrong.... if doing something incorrectly or that is dumb shouldnt be done then none of us should even be out there going those speeds. You are right that the combination is not correct and that it may not have been the "smart" thing to do but that doesnt make it wrong.

This is backwards. It should be the more speed/momentum the more lean angle is required. Trying to hang off the bike too much in the beginning is going to upset the chassis and hamper a rider developing their corner speed.

you are right......left is right and right is left in a mirror.

[64BonnieLass]

Jeff, thank you for your comments. Part of my day was to learn the new bike, and learn "the feel of it" without gauges and with it just being different in many ways. All part of the process for me that day.

But yes, I couldn't hear much (new helmet is rockin'). In the AM I felt pretty good in all the turns except 7. But I sure "felt" being in the wrong gear a couple of times so I know exactly what you are talking about. Another thing for me to work on next track day. In the PM, I 100% lost focus in all the turns so finished my session and called it a day.

Technique is the next thing to do. Hopefully I will get faster in small increments as I start to feel more confident with both positioning and the new bike. DANG NOOBS!!!!

[dragos13]

Congrats on the bike Terri. I was happy to see you down there riding with the rest of us.

As for body position, I have just a couple suggestions. First, try and slide back about an inch or two from the tank. I know you are a small lady, however having a little gap between you and the tank will help with stability and movement. You just dont want to be flush up against the tank. Also, pay attention to how stiff/loose you are keeping your arms. Usually when people start, they are always way too stiff. It creates un-needed input into the bars, which of course your bike wont like. Stay loose with the arms, and like Jim said, start moving your head and shoulders down and towards the inside. Always be looking thru the turn, towards the exit. The more you can get off the bike, the more the bike can stand up allowing for more corner speed. Check out a pic of my teammate, you can see how low he gets his center of gravity. It allows the bike to stay in a more straight up position when compared to people who are crossed up. The outside arm will start to become straight, as you point the inside elbow down towards the curb. Send me a PM if you have any questions. We'll be down on the 4th if you want some trackside help come find our pits.

[UglyDogRacing]

i would like to see you go slow and lean way off your bike and then turn, you will very likely fall down. my point was that your lean has to be equivalent to your speed, yes you may be right about turn 1 and turn 7 but try staying the same lean and going even slower......they do corrolate. there has to be enough momentum to counteract the effect of gravity/your body weight.

Not necessarily. If the corner's radius is smaller then it will be required to turn the bike in a shorter distance. Justin is correct with his examples of Turn 1 and 7. I lean more and hang off the bike more in Turn7, the slowest corner on the track, then I do in Turn 1, the fastest corner on the track. And if I see Clarkie, Hendry, Graham and Turner doing the same when I am behind them, then I must not be too far off.

I disagree with you. it is fine..... so is crashing, we learn from our mistakes even better than our successes, as long as we learn. if you want to do something than do it but be prepared to accept the consequences. TIPYS has not once ( as far as i know) tried to lay blame for his accident anywhere else. he is simply trying to figure out what went wrong.... if doing something incorrectly or that is dumb shouldnt be done then none of us should even be out there going those speeds. You are right that the combination is not correct and that it may not have been the "smart" thing to do but that doesnt make it wrong.

The problem with your theory of learning from mistakes as it relates to track riding/racing is that it can be rather painful and expensive. Learning the proper way can not only save headaches but also time, money and hospital bills. Mistakes do happen. I have crashed on average twice a year for the past 6 season, all from mistakes I made. But I don't shun advice from my peers or those with many years more experience than me(I annoy the shit out Clarkie all the time asking for advice) and dont tell them that they are wrong because I already know everything.
Listening to experts on the internet gets one no where.

Originally Posted by uglydogracing
This is backwards. It should be the more speed/momentum the more lean angle is required. Trying to hang off the bike too much in the beginning is going to upset the chassis and hamper a rider developing their corner speed.

you are right......left is right and right is left in a mirror.

That sarcastic comment pretty much sums up your understanding....or lack of understanding.

I know you have received or will be getting your race license soon. Racing is a very humbling experience for alot of racers...especially a first year novice; there will always be someone better than you out there regardless of what level you're at. Its funny how over time it will diminish one's level of arrogance yet amplify their level of confidence.

[pilot]

Not necessarily. If the corner's radius is smaller then it will be required to turn the bike in a shorter distance. Justin is correct with his examples of Turn 1 and 7. I lean more and hang off the bike more in Turn7, the slowest corner on the track, then I do in Turn 1, the fastest corner on the track. And if I see Clarkie, Hendry, Graham and Turner doing the same when I am behind them, then I must not be too far off.



The problem with your theory of learning from mistakes as it relates to track riding/racing is that it can be rather painful and expensive. Learning the proper way can not only save headaches but also time, money and hospital bills. Mistakes do happen. I have crashed on average twice a year for the past 6 season, all from mistakes I made. But I don't shun advice from my peers or those with many years more experience than me(I annoy the shit out Clarkie all the time asking for advice) and dont tell them that they are wrong because I already know everything.
Listening to experts on the internet gets one no where.




That sarcastic comment pretty much sums up your understanding....or lack of understanding.

I know you have received or will be getting your race license soon. Racing is a very humbling experience for alot of racers...especially a first year novice; there will always be someone better than you out there regardless of what level you're at. Its funny how over time it will diminish one's level of arrogance yet amplify their level of confidence.

Not to mention a financial burden that so many would take on but can not. Sadly

[Horsman]

Terri, Glad you made it back alive!!! woo hooo

I think if you paint the bike FRIGHT-BRIGHT-YELLOW it would go more smoothly through 2,7,9. Geez, Now I need to go get a Track Bike so I can show you how "NOT" to ride. hehehehe

[jimwallace]

Not necessarily. If the corner's radius is smaller then it will be required to turn the bike in a shorter distance. Justin is correct with his examples of Turn 1 and 7. I lean more and hang off the bike more in Turn7, the slowest corner on the track, then I do in Turn 1, the fastest corner on the track. And if I see Clarkie, Hendry, Graham and Turner doing the same when I am behind them, then I must not be too far off.



The problem with your theory of learning from mistakes as it relates to track riding/racing is that it can be rather painful and expensive. Learning the proper way can not only save headaches but also time, money and hospital bills. Mistakes do happen. I have crashed on average twice a year for the past 6 season, all from mistakes I made. But I don't shun advice from my peers or those with many years more experience than me(I annoy the shit out Clarkie all the time asking for advice) and dont tell them that they are wrong because I already know everything.
Listening to experts on the internet gets one no where.




That sarcastic comment pretty much sums up your understanding....or lack of understanding.

I know you have received or will be getting your race license soon. Racing is a very humbling experience for alot of racers...especially a first year novice; there will always be someone better than you out there regardless of what level you're at. Its funny how over time it will diminish one's level of arrogance yet amplify their level of confidence.

obviously you have misunderstood everything i have said up to this point/i have misunderstood you. i hardly think i know everything, and obviously you are unwilling to try to understand what i was getting at. like i said i am no magician with words and i cannot explain myself with a paragraph so that everyone understands what i am saying. in regards to hanging off, i know that you must have momentum in order to keep the bike upright while you are off the side...matter of fact you have to have momentum to keep the bike up period simply because you cannot get it perfectly balanced. if you go around a corner too slowly and are hanging way off are you telling me that you wont fall over?
"JimWallace"
but if you dont have enough speed/decelerate then it will throw off the CG and you will go down. the more you lean typically the more speed/momentum you will need.

This is backwards. It should be the more speed/momentum the more lean angle is required. Trying to hang off the bike too much in the beginning is going to upset the chassis and hamper a rider developing their corner speed.


it honestly seems as if we are saying the same thing just in a different order. as for the mistakes i was simply telling tipys that i am not faulting him for hanging way off and trying to drag a knee, you are right it is the hard knock way, but i aint gonna get up in his S#!* telling him he was dumb for doing so. if everyone did that then we would all be talking and being talked to. the same way your getting on my case because i misworded/didnt explain very well. and it was not a sarcastic comment it was a simple correlation as to how things get worded. if i was to say braking slows you down would i be wrong? how about if i said you slow down by braking? they both are regarding the same thing and even though they are not taking the whole picture of trimming speed they still get the point across. i apologize if you feel that my explanations were not good enough or correct enough, i was simply trying to help out cause i like to help. if you think i am wrong then explain your reasoning so that perhaps i can learn something new also, instead of just attacking my comments trying to prove that i am incompetent and show how much you know......or what ever it was. also the birds were completely childish and unnecessary.

[Tipys]

everyone learns diffrent ways simple as that. In school i can remember taking a class that i couldnt pass class more then once. then I just got the right teacher then passed the class that teacher just show me a diffrent way same subject. I passed and what it took was just someone showing me a diffrent way. Not everyone rides the same so everyones ways are diffrent and there for would teach someone else another way trying to make it better them selfs.

Like me I stopped trying to drag my knee that day. But I was talking with my class instuctor Dale MRA#44 I believe and the guy he was pitted with MRA#121. And with both there help I ended up getting my knee down. Between my body position being a little off and Im pretty sure a backed out of the throttle is the why I lost the front end. Im still learning I want to learn as much as I can.

[jimwallace]

props to you tipys. i know what happened with you cause i did the EXACT same thing through turn 4 the first time i went to the track. got my knee down and then lowsided. i think though that it was not cause i backed out but simply because i was going too slow for leaning off the bike that much and then when i leaned the bike a bit more down it went. I'll tell you what i learned from that mistake though and hopefully will never repeat it again.

NOW IF WE CAN GET BACK TO THOSE HELP SUGGESTIONS/QUESTIONS.

[Jayock]

Sigh...

[dragos13]

props to you tipys. i know what happened with you cause i did the EXACT same thing through turn 4 the first time i went to the track. got my knee down and then lowsided. i think though that it was not cause i backed out but simply because i was going too slow for leaning off the bike that much and then when i leaned the bike a bit more down it went. I'll tell you what i learned from that mistake though and hopefully will never repeat it again.

NOW IF WE CAN GET BACK TO THOSE HELP SUGGESTIONS/QUESTIONS.

If you are too slow to keep the bike up, what makes you think you should be dragging a knee?

The idea that dragging a knee makes you "seem" fast is just a street rider's opinion. I used to drag my knee alot as a Novice. One time I went thru a pair of sliders in one weekend. Now days tho, my sliders will last me all season and then some.

You can't blame the law of physics for why you crashed (atleast not until you are fast enough to push the bike past its limits, and I'm talking sub 1:30's in Pueblo). You need to evaluate the situation and possibly blame the actual reason: yourself.

Also, you will never crash from leaning off "too much". Not even sure if thats possible. Again, take a look at my teammate and tell me, were you hanging off more then him? I highly doubt it. I would put money on the crash being user input. I dont know the situation but I would say you either made drastic change (and by me saying drastic, to you it could be minimal) either with the throttle, the brakes, or the handle bars. Just my opinion so take it for that.

[jimwallace]

If you are too slow to keep the bike up, what makes you think you should be dragging a knee?

The idea that dragging a knee makes you "seem" fast is just a street rider's opinion. I used to drag my knee alot as a Novice. One time I went thru a pair of sliders in one weekend. Now days tho, my sliders will last me all season and then some.

You can't blame the law of physics for why you crashed (atleast not until you are fast enough to push the bike past its limits, and I'm talking sub 1:30's in Pueblo). You need to evaluate the situation and possibly blame the actual reason: yourself.

Also, you will never crash from leaning off "too much". Not even sure if thats possible. Again, take a look at my teammate and tell me, were you hanging off more then him? I highly doubt it. I would put money on the crash being user input. I dont know the situation but I would say you either made drastic change (and by me saying drastic, to you it could be minimal) either with the throttle, the brakes, or the handle bars. Just my opinion so take it for that.

thats pretty much what i am getting at.....although there seems to be a consensus that no matter how far i am hanging off the bike it has no adverse effect that can make it easier for the bike to go down. so apparently i am very mistaken in my understanding of the laws of gravity/momentum effect on the geometry of a bike. i guess i will have to find someone explain to me how this works so that i can get an understanding of this.

[dragos13]

thats pretty much what i am getting at.....although there seems to be a consensus that no matter how far i am hanging off the bike it has no adverse effect that can make it easier for the bike to go down. so apparently i am very mistaken in my understanding of the laws of gravity/momentum effect on the geometry of a bike. i guess i will have to find someone explain to me how this works so that i can get an understanding of this.

Is that another sarcastic remark? I'm having a hard time figuring out your personality

By looking at your avatar pic, you are not hanging off "too far" for anything really. Maybe the lack there of is causing your adverse effect.

[Jayock]

To clairfy, Casey, he is talking about someone else who has the problem, not himself. I do agree with Jim and Casey (the only others in the thread to hold an expert Road Racing license beside myself) about the leaning off. If you are leaning off too far, and going FAR too slow you the bike will simply fall over, rather than low-side or high-side. And you would know that this happened. You would need to be going 5mph.

Also, the leaning/momentum/force(gravity) will NOT effect bike geometry. It might be noteworthy that I have 2 engineering degrees, and studied under one of the MotoGP Ducatti engineers who consulted regularly on the 990cc GP Desmosedicci. Even if I can't ride the bike at 100%, I feel I have a good hold on what is happening engineering/physics wise.

[jimwallace]

no that was not a sarcastic remark. i actually have found someone who understood what i was saying and was able to correct my understanding. simply put i wasnt completely wrong but i was WAY off the mark. the key i was missing was including the lean of the bike which is where the effect of gravity and momentum is really in effect, although the leaning of your body does amplify/change the effects of them. as for me using the word "geometry", i am no engineer so i have no idea what of all the things that effect the true geometry besides the obvious (rake, lean,tire size, ect.) i use that as a term meaning "things that affect the handling of the bike" which is pretty close to the real meaning, which is why it was probably not the best term to use. so far though i have been batting a thousand for not saying things right.

[irdave]

I think I have a pretty good understanding of this topic, both practically and technically, and you guys are confusing the hell out of me.

Let me see if I can state it more different...

For a given radius corner at a given speed, there's a corresponding lean angle OF THE COMBINED CG OF THE RIDER AND THE BIKE REQUIRED TO NEGOTIATE THE CORNER. Hang off, don't hang off- whatever.

Why should you hang off the bike? Well, dragging hard parts is probably the first reason. Going so fast through a corner that you are riding off the edge of the tire is the second. It can help the bike turn a bit because the cg does move laterally, but only a little... I was talking to one fast guy that used to race an Aprilia. He said he used to just sit in the middle of the seat on that thing- didn't hardly move around at all... From everything I've heard, Jim is the local guy to listen to about figuring out how to go faster... And his dogs are, well, have such great personalities. At least one of them does!

Oh, and yeah, the first book is more general. I think the second book is better because it deals more with the specifics of bikes. Nick's book is pretty good. I really liked the Skip Barber book Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving... And to the deeper end, Carroll Smith's books are a worth reading. If you want more titles, let me know. I should start a library.

[N1KSS1KS1x]

I got one. Am I wasting my time running street tires to get a feel for the bike moving around and sliding at the track? I was running dot's and the bike didn't move around or slide till after I had some days on umm. There's so much for me to work on and learn rt know. Should I just stick to a dot and take one thing out of the pot?
Another is I fuct up and changed a bunch of shit on the bike at once after binning it and I'm now having problems getting it sorted and back to feeling like my bike. Anybody worked through something similar got any tips? Got a form pic to how's it look???

[ghostrider_9]

Terri, it looks like you opened the age old debate of how to do it right . . . good luck finding an answer. If you do, let me know.

I have a copy of twist the wrist II you can borrow. It will explain a lot of the theories for you.

The bottom line is that you need to find a rhythm and a style that suits you best and work on making it better. Trial and error are the best teachers. Start slow and you will increase you comfort level naturally. Follow someone and watch their lines, then go in and talk to them about it. Seeing it then talking about it will help you better understand why they are making the decisions they make and help you to make better ones for yourself . . .