Pastor telling you who to vote for…

[puckstr]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249628/

Conversly, shall I ask your god to conduct a series of miracles to prove his existence? Or how about Jesus coming down and having dinner with me? Got some questions I need to run past him...

I personally don't allow Hippies in my house

[Hozerking]

I don't have a problem with Churches telling there constituents how to vote. I do however have a problem with the idea that the government should legislate morality (unless it is in the publics best interest). I don't think that the government should be able to financially punish a non-profit group because they endorse a certain candidate.

agree
-al

[Hozerking]

To the individuals who think churches should pay taxes:
Quit complaining and initiate non-profit tax reform. Do something.

To the individuals who have misquoted the Bible:
Read the Bible and gather correct information before you post or draw conclusions on creationism OR evolution. (example: there were 7 of the clean animals)

To the scientists that have brought us the sub-atomic particle smasher, human genome mapping, and the 4 hour errection:
Please use your 200,000 years of facts, data, evidence, and observations and (re)-create a self replicating single cell animal so that we can further discuss the facts of evolution. Shouldn't be a problem -should it?

agree

As for the science part of it check out this podcast: http://twit.tv/FIB

Its the best source of info I have found on where the cutting edge of Biotech is; insanely neat stuff, but genome was just the beginning.

-al

[rforsythe]

If they are Christian ideals, they are evil and bad? If they come from the atheistic/socialist/humanist wing of the country they're cool?

I never said that. So are you trying to ask a vaguely relevant rhetorical question, make a point, or try to put words in my mouth?

Ralph we all have opinions, desires and morals. Where they are derived is irrelevant.

Yes we do. No it isn't. Well, at least I don't care where your morals and ethics come from, the same as you probably don't care about the origin of mine, so far as what we do doesn't affect each other. Where it becomes relevant, is when someone's morals, derived from nothing more than a belief structure, become dictated to a whole lot of people who might have other views on life. It's one thing to think differently than the guy standing next to you. It's entirely another to say "I'm right and you're wrong just because my [insert belief] says so, and therefore you will do what I say". I don't care if it's Christian-derived, Muslim, Buddhist, or anything else. I do care if whatever it is ends up being rammed down my throat involuntarily. You should too.

A church pastor using his position to state his opinion is not "OMG the sky is falling and we are moving to a religious civil war!!!!!". Not anymore striking then Rev Wright and some of his more incendiary comments.

I don't disagree here. I never said the sky was falling. I did however point out, correctly I might add, that in a society where you have a vast majority leaning towards one religious central point, the potential exists to get enough of them to cause a policy shift simply by listening to those they trust (in this case, pastors).

But continue to beat that drum if it makes you feel better. When they start sending Buddists to concentration camps, feeding Catholics to lions and making Jews wear "pieces of flair", I will be more then happy to take up arms against the tyranny. Until then this is just more election year stoopidity for the ignorant masses to feed on...

And continue to spout the "keep beating that drum" rhetoric. You've used that line before, which is ironic. Yeah a fair bit of it is election fodder, and more than likely this pastor will have no real effect on voting outcomes at least outside of his circle. But the fact is that religion is taking more of a visible role in public policy than perhaps ever before in our nation's history. We may not be feeding people to lions (not that a few don't deserve it) but that doesn't mean it won't affect you.

[jbnwc]

But the fact is that religion is taking more of a visible role in public policy than perhaps ever before in our nation's history.

Ha! - Did you forget the 80's? Religion nowe does not have near the pull it had with the Reagan administration. That kind of comment is why everyone thinks you are 'beating the drum'.

I've only had religion 'shoved down my throat' by Jehovah's Witnesses, but no other religion. I have on several occasions had non-believers attack my opinions and beliefs simply because mine do not line up with theirs. Even Dirk, who is a generally nice guy, has attacked people on this very thread and called them ignorant because of their beliefs. Are we not entitled to our beliefs?

[rlb454]

So since this horse aint quite dead yet, figure I'll give it a shot, I deleted my post in the beginning because I figured this thread would go this way...I think I said something to the effect of it turning into a Jr High School level name calling battle of personal attacks and un backed/not proven opinions...hmm.

So here's my take,

Churches telling their congregations how to vote: didnt that article mention only 33 pastors joining in? out of how many thousands of churches? If any of you have ever jumped thru the hoops to get a non profit status for an organization, you know it takes the better part of a year going back and forth with the gov. I have done it. I also would not jeopardize that standing, by defying it. If these pastors want to tell their congregations about the moral condition of the candidates, why does this bother some of you so much? If you go to one of these churches and dont like it, leave. They have the right to do as they please, and will suffer the consequences.
Why does it bother you that churches are tax exempt? Just what is it about being tax exempt that pisses you off so much? I dont think a lot of you understand how churches are tax exempt. So we dont pay property tax or have to pay tax on our paper plates for our pot lucks, big deal, neither do schools. If given the chance, I would bet the family farm that any of you would jump on the opportunity to avoid property tax. If any of you knew the inner workings of how a church can opperate with all the city and county codes, you would be more than happy to give them a break from some tax. Lets not forget about the paid staff, I believe most are under a self employed status, my pastor and all our church staff is, which means they pay MORE tax that most of you. So they get a housing allowance, big deal, they still pay more tax than most.

And then there is the "Christians are a bunch of mindless sheep, just fallowing what they are told" camp. Hmm, lets start with me:
I made Christ my Lord 23 years ago. Why? Because I was challenged by a believer to look into it myself, and actually read the bible. Lets just say that I was my own person and didnt take crap from anyone. So I started to read for myself and the rest is history. Oh yah, and still no one gives me crap.
Then there is my pastor, a retired of 20 years Lt. Col. in the US Air Force. His job? a rescue helicopter pilot.
Another friend of mine was in the Air Force during the Korea and Viet Nam era. He did things like help develop the defensive radar system on F4 fighter jets and was one of the authors of the F4 radar manual. he finished off his USAF career teaching radar school at Lowrey AFB. He is like my dad, and one of the most brilliant men I know.
Another guy that I had the privilege of meeting retired from the Jet Propulsion Lab at NASA in Ca. You might have heard about some of his work, it is orbiting Saturn right now. He led that project.
Ok, one more guy, Dave Nutting. He now lives in Grand Junction. He was once one of the most respected evolutionists in the nation, he was even on the Johny Carson show (I think I remember him saying johny's show) when he was only a teenager because he was already teaching college level evolution. As he got older and more experienced with the whole evolution gig, he saw that it was impossible to find facts to back any of it up, so he started looking into intelligent design/creation. He now has a organization called Alpha Omega Institute, and teaches creation working closely with the Institute for Creation Research. (I have heard of several evolutionists going to the creation side, but never the other way around)

Evolution, some of you are screaming that it is FACT, where is this fact? Havent some of the most solid evidences for evolution turned out to be hoaxes? you might not have heard about these because I believe they were removed from the text books.
You also say that we Christians only believe in a one true God because that is what we were taught, sort of like how those that believe in evolution were?
What if the missing link was found, what if the Ark was found? From what I understand, there are satellite images of what might be the Ark on top of Mt. Ararat? and the missing link? I think it is still missing. The possibility of finding remains of Noah's ark are far greater than that of the missing link,my opinion again.

Dinosaurs? doesnt the bible give reference to what we believe to be dinosaurs in the book of Job, ie, Behemoth, and in other books, Leviathan? I believe in them suckers co existing with us. As far as no bones of humans and dinosaurs being found together, leading some to believe it was an entirely different time period, so? I know for a fact, yes fact, that you can dig up dinosaur bones here in Western Co. in shallower levels than you can dig up a set of human bones at the graveyard.

So on the topic of dating methods, arent the dating methods used subject to atmospheric conditions? Billions of years old? No way we can determine that one, I dont care how scientific you think you are, there are no hard records what so ever going back more than a few thousand years. Some of the most common dating methods that are thought to be most accurate, put shallower layers of strata in the Grand Canyon as being older than deeper layers.
Also take a peek at Mt St. Helens. Since its eruption in 1980, the events that took place there have turned a lot of evolutionists theories upside down. Millions of years? that mountain has proven that in a very short period of time, that petrification, forming of canyons, re growth, strata layers that appear to have taken millions of years to form, can happen in just a couple of decades given the right conditions and catastrophic events. Check out a documentary by Steve Austin on it produced ten years ago, very good.

And when some of you lump all Christians into a group of mindless sheep, think twice, it would be like saying that all motorcyclists are a bunch of un safe hot rod idiots because I have a friend that told me he saw one riding with out a helmet doing a wheelie down Colorado Blvd with his girlfriend on the back wearing only a tank top, shorts, and flip flops.

If some of you want to debate subjects like this with sarcasm and personal attacks, using only your opinions and hearsay, good luck getting folks to jump on your bandwagon, they were probably in Jr. High School already.

I havent posted on this site in quite while because it seems like always the same crap. It goes from a club about bikes to a slam fest. I have made a couple friends on this board and I'm great full for that, I hope it continues, but you prob wont see my funny little squirrel sig that often.

On a side note, it is sorta odd how that when times get unbearable, someone passes away, we need help, medical issues, etc., seems people from all sorts of beliefs drop to their knees in prayer, and call on the Great Almighty, the Living God.

As for the believers on this board, right on Lord bless ya. As for the anti God folks on this board, ride safe, good luck, and I hope you will take the time to read the bible for YOURSELF and discover your answers, and may the Lord bless you too. As for me and my house, I will serve the Lord!

Ok, one more thing, as far as the combination of religion and politics, the two most popular US presidents in history were men of faith in one true God, and changed history based on their convictions. #1, Ronald Reagan, #2, Abraham Lincoln.

See what happens when you cant sleep,

RLB out,
cheers

[dirkterrell]

Why does it bother you that churches are tax exempt? Just what is it about being tax exempt that pisses you off so much?

Speaking for myself, I'm not pissed off about it.

I dont think a lot of you understand how churches are tax exempt. So we dont pay property tax or have to pay tax on our paper plates for our pot lucks, big deal, neither do schools. If given the chance, I would bet the family farm that any of you would jump on the opportunity to avoid property tax.

Not me. I believe in paying my fair share. My beef with the current system is that it has become so complex and cumbersome (mainly due to endless specialized exemptions and loopholes) that it unfairly penalizes individuals and small businesses who don't have the resources to keep up with all the details. One big reason I decided to sell my business about ten years ago was because I was tired of wasting my energy keeping up with all that crap instead of doing what I should have been doing, growing my business.

If any of you knew the inner workings of how a church can opperate with all the city and county codes, you would be more than happy to give them a break from some tax.

Under a simplified system, everyone would pay a lower rate. I would rather see everyone pay a little rather than the current system which requires all of the wasted effort determining who is eligible for what exemption. As I said earlier, churches are members of society and should participate as such. And your analogy with schools (public ones) is flawed because those are funded by taxes. It makes no sense to tax them.

Lets not forget about the paid staff, I believe most are under a self employed status, my pastor and all our church staff is, which means they pay MORE tax that most of you. So they get a housing allowance, big deal, they still pay more tax than most.

Pay more than who? Private businesses?

Evolution, some of you are screaming that it is FACT, where is this fact?

I posted a reference. Did you read it? Haven't heard back from James about whether he read it.

Havent some of the most solid evidences for evolution turned out to be hoaxes? you might not have heard about these because I believe they were removed from the text books.

I assume you are talking about Piltdown Man? If so, it is a beautiful example of how the scientific process weeds out fraudulent claims. At first PM seemed like the "missing link" but as more hominid fossils were discovered, it was clear that it didn't fit with the new finds like Australopithecus and Homo Erectus. It was seen as perhaps some side branch before it was finally exposed as a hoax. At the time of its "discovery", it superficially seemed like an important find but when scientists looked at the details, it made no sense. Science, despite the weaknesses of the humans that undertake it, is designed to uncover falsifications like this (or much more commonly, honest mistakes).

As far as no bones of humans and dinosaurs being found together, leading some to believe it was an entirely different time period, so? I know for a fact, yes fact, that you can dig up dinosaur bones here in Western Co. in shallower levels than you can dig up a set of human bones at the graveyard.

Note that I said "undisturbed" layers earlier. Yes, through geologic processes, lower levels can be upturned. I sit in my office every day and see the Flatirons which are now nearly vertical at the top of a mountain when they were once the sedimentary bed of a sea.

So on the topic of dating methods, arent the dating methods used subject to atmospheric conditions? Billions of years old? No way we can determine that one, I dont care how scientific you think you are,

Now that's some open-minded thinking. I'm assuming you're talking about C14 dating. And yes, it does depend on the production rate of C14 in the atmosphere. Perhaps you know enough about the process to tell us how it's calibrated?

there are no hard records what so ever going back more than a few thousand years.

Define "a few thousand".

Some of the most common dating methods that are thought to be most accurate, put shallower layers of strata in the Grand Canyon as being older than deeper layers.

Got a peer-reviewed reference for that?

Also take a peek at Mt St. Helens. Since its eruption in 1980, the events that took place there have turned a lot of evolutionists theories upside down. Millions of years? that mountain has proven that in a very short period of time, that petrification, forming of canyons, re growth, strata layers that appear to have taken millions of years to form, can happen in just a couple of decades given the right conditions and catastrophic events. Check out a documentary by Steve Austin on it produced ten years ago, very good.

I'd like some real details on these claims. Catastrophism and it's effects on evolutionary processes is a mature field of research. Does he have a web site outlining these claims?

I hope you will take the time to read the bible for YOURSELF and discover your answers

I have indeed done so. And I certainly didn't lack for exposure to Christian beliefs growing up in the South with fundamentalist parents.

Ok, one more thing, as far as the combination of religion and politics, the two most popular US presidents in history were men of faith in one true God, and changed history based on their convictions. #1, Ronald Reagan, #2, Abraham Lincoln.

Both of whom I admire very much. But the argument here isn't that people of faith can't serve. The argument (and nature of the First Ammendment) is that government itself should not be involved in enforcing or prohibiting religious belief.

Dirk

[Captain Obvious]

Creation vs. Evolution aside, why SHOULD churches be exempt from taxes?

I am not talking about the small congregations that are limited to a small building with <100 people in service every Sunday and struggle to make ends meet, but the large churches that clearly have no fiscal shortages and take in millions of dollars annually.

And it is not just the church itself that is exempt, but the employees can be. Clergy are exempt from federal taxes on housing and can opt out of Social Security and Medicare withholding.

Gonna guess they do not have fiscal problems.