Pastor telling you who to vote for…

[Snowman]

Churches to defy IRS on sermons

If they do want to tell their congregations who to vote for I have no problem with their right to do so as long as they pay the admission price like the rest of us.

[puckstr]

wow another reason to ride on Sunday instead of going to church.

[Vance]

You've got to love the ongoing (if not escalating) hypocrisy of organized religious christian groups. I tell you ... the next American civil war will not be a class war or a race war... it will be a religious war. The psychotic self-involved and self-forgiving uber-conservative christian zealots who try to take over this country... against pretty much everyone else who is level headed and descent enough to understand the principles this country was founded on and stands for.

ANYWAY...

I for one would like to hear SOMEONE (maybe Biden in this week's VP debate) corner Palin on the fact she really believes people co-existed with dinosaurs 6000 years ago.

Lets see how the masses of even the uninformed react to that stinky pile of pucks left by this (though I don't know how her brain generates enough intellectual capacity to actually produce the impulses to) walking bipedal poster-girl for stupidity of the GOP (or at least McCain).

[Sortarican]

I talk to God all the time....she never told me how to vote.

[puckstr]

Jeff tell her to STOP stalking me

[Warren]

I don't have a problem with Churches telling there constituents how to vote. I do however have a problem with the idea that the government should legislate morality (unless it is in the publics best interest). I don't think that the government should be able to financially punish a non-profit group because they endorse a certain candidate.

[MetaLord 9]

I don't have a problem with Churches telling there constituents how to vote. I do however have a problem with the idea that the government should legislate morality (unless it is in the publics best interest). I don't think that the government should be able to financially punish a non-profit group because they endorse a certain candidate.

I think it's more being seen as state is trying to uphold (although loosely) the seperation of church & state, but church, in this case, doesn't seem to be making the same effort.

You've got to love the ongoing (if not escalating) hypocrisy of organized religious christian groups. I tell you ... the next American civil war will not be a class war or a race war... it will be a religious war. The psychotic self-involved and self-forgiving uber-conservative christian zealots who try to take over this country... against pretty much everyone else who is level headed and descent enough to understand the principles this country was founded on and stands for.

ANYWAY...

I for one would like to hear SOMEONE (maybe Biden in this week's VP debate) corner Palin on the fact she really believes people co-existed with dinosaurs 6000 years ago.

Lets see how the masses of even the uninformed react to that stinky pile of pucks left by this (though I don't know how her brain generates enough intellectual capacity to actually produce the impulses to) walking bipedal poster-girl for stupidity of the GOP (or at least McCain).

I think that once we start railing against a particular faith or sect because we disagree with their politics it's the beginning of the end. As a people, we seem to over look the fact that someone disagreeing with us doesn't make them any dumber than we are. It's easy to blame someone's personal differences for thier dissenting opinion, but once we start dismissing them and their beliefs purely because of those differences, we lower our tollerance for open debate and close ourselves to progress. I'm not saying that we should all get along because differing opnions are essential and debate is what makes the machine of government work. What I am saying is that just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them an idiot or their opinion any less valid than yours.

[Snowman]

I don't have a problem with Churches telling there constituents how to vote. I do however have a problem with the idea that the government should legislate morality (unless it is in the publics best interest). I don't think that the government should be able to financially punish a non-profit group because they endorse a certain candidate.

How is paying taxes punishment?

[Captain Obvious]

I for one would like to hear SOMEONE (maybe Biden in this week's VP debate) corner Palin on the fact she really believes people co-existed with dinosaurs 6000 years ago.

Lets see how the masses of even the uninformed react to that stinky pile of pucks left by this (though I don't know how her brain generates enough intellectual capacity to actually produce the impulses to) walking bipedal poster-girl for stupidity of the GOP (or at least McCain).

US population % by religion or none.

• Christian: (78.5%) @218million
  
  • Protestant (51.3%)
  • Roman Catholic (23.9%)
  • Mormon (1.7%)
  • other Christian (1.6%)
  
  
• unaffiliated (12.1%)
• none (4%)
• other or unspecified (2.5%)
• Jewish (1.7%)
• Buddhist (0.7%)
• Muslim (0.6%)

So @ 78% of the U.S. believe in a Christian God.
Christian belief indicates at first there was nothing, then Adam and Eve and humans. It is mostly proven that Dinosaurs existed, therefore some version of cohabitation must of occurred. And if 78% of the population believe, then many of the Democratic Party also believe. Statistically there are about 3 Dems for every 2 registered Repubs, so the 78% means it is safe to eyeball at least half of the Dem party also believe in cohabitation. If they are true to their beliefs.

[The Black Knight]

You've got to love the ongoing (if not escalating) hypocrisy of organized religious christian groups. I tell you ... the next American civil war will not be a class war or a race war... it will be a religious war. The psychotic self-involved and self-forgiving uber-conservative christian zealots who try to take over this country... against pretty much everyone else who is level headed and descent enough to understand the principles this country was founded on and stands for.

ANYWAY...

I for one would like to hear SOMEONE (maybe Biden in this week's VP debate) corner Palin on the fact she really believes people co-existed with dinosaurs 6000 years ago.

Lets see how the masses of even the uninformed react to that stinky pile of pucks left by this (though I don't know how her brain generates enough intellectual capacity to actually produce the impulses to) walking bipedal poster-girl for stupidity of the GOP (or at least McCain).

Biden is a professed and devout Catholic, so like Palin he would also believe in Creationism.

And Vance what is there to corner someone on, especially when it's their own personal beliefs?? Whether or not she believes in Creationism has nothing to do with policy or legislation.

I for one believe the earth is roughly 6500 to 7000 years of age. I also believe that God created the dinosaurs and I also believe that man was around with the dinosaurs. So how you going to corner me?? It's my beliefs and that's that. You want to know why I believe the dinosaurs aren't around anymore? Noah's Flood, and I believe God destroyed them because of their immense size(they would be something very hard for a shriking mankind to deal with).

So there you have it, my answer to everything is the Bible, yours is Evolution and science. Poke, prod or just plain make fun of my beliefs if you will, doesn't matter and doesn't change my mind in the least.

And I hardly believe that Biden(if he's as devout as he says he is) will corner Palin on the whole "Creationism" thing. It's not like we're talking Atheist vs. Creationist, it's Catholic vs. Protestant. Two completely different situations.

As for Civil War 2.0, I partially agree. Though I believe it's going to be more of a class war with religion being a close second. Race isn't much of an issue(the first War was fought partly because of this)now.

And you say it's the "psychotic, self involved and self-forgiving uber conservative christian zealots who try to take over this country." Well isn't the radical over-dramatic immoral and heathenistic liberal left trying to achieve the same thing???

[Warren]

How is paying taxes punishment?

Churches operate as a non-profit organization. I don't have a problem with pro-choice non-profit groups getting tax exempt status even though they get very involved in telling people how they should vote. I don't see why churches should lose their non-profit status for the same reason.

[Warren]

I also know for a fact that a lot of professing christians (although maybe not enough) don't give a shit how they are told to vote. They can think for themselves. Who cares what some pastor standing in front of his congregation tells them how to vote.

[Shea]

It is mostly proven that Dinosaurs existed, therefore some version of cohabitation must of occurred.

<cough> what??? "Mostly proven", there's the understatement of the century...

Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. First hominid was around 3-3.6 million years ago, homosapiens about 200,000 years ago. There was no cohabitation, whatsoever.

...but then again we're all riding on the back of a giant turtle so what do I know...

Oh and Randall, taxes are a punishment whenever you have to pay them, ie every paycheck

[Vance]

I for one believe the earth is roughly 6500 to 7000 years of age. I also believe that God created the dinosaurs and I also believe that man was around with the dinosaurs. So how you going to corner me?? It's my beliefs and that's that. You want to know why I believe the dinosaurs aren't around anymore? Noah's Flood, and I believe God destroyed them because of their immense size(they would be something very hard for a shriking mankind to deal with).

BK...
I know we've agreed on a few things here and there of late - but on some topics we fundamentally differ... so I cannot let this one rest.

HOW... I mean seriously... HOW can you explain the death of the dinosaurs with the flood myth (a myth that has been told and retold and predates Judaism's version by roughly 2-3000 years give or take) when the fact of the matter is that dinosaur bones are located in striation layer(s) of the earth far deeper than that of any human record? None whatsoever. Nothing even resembling human bones. How is that possible if everyone else died in the flood - the entire population of the earth save a handful - wiped out with the dinosaurs and the unicorns and the dragons and the other whimsical beasts of lore... but no fossil record of humans ANYWHERE corresponding to that same time period dinosaurs were around.

Hmmmm.....

But let us just forget the dinosaurs for one second...
If you believe the flood myth - EVERYONE but Noah and his coveted few died, correct?

So how is it we have such massive diversity on this planet if everyone died?

Does that not make us all direct descendants of incest? Is incest not a sin in not only Judaism but Christianity? How does one account for that little Catch 22 in the bible hmmm?

Does that premise of the flood myth also not make the entire premise of a Native American Indian culture impossible since there is no way an entire population like that managed to make it from the renewed humanity - over to North and South America - build gigantic civilizations as the Maya, Inca, and Aztec did - free of such known animals in the middle east as horses and donkeys and such - in just what by your plausible calendar - 2000-3000 years total time? It took the Egyptians - with all their record keeping HUNDREDS of years to build an empire, and they were there the whole time - with THOUSANDS of slaves working for them.

BTW... how is that possible in the flood myth? Where did the Egyptians come from and how was their empire still growing DURING the time of this professed world cleansing flood if they all died off?

Or the Chinese who's records and oral history date back several thousands of years?

Or the Rus people?

Or...

Well -- I think you see my point to the implausibility of not only the dinosaurs living among us from just a pure rationality and logic of it --- but the flood myth as well.

[Vance]

US population % by religion or none.

• Christian: (78.5%) @218million
  
  • Protestant (51.3%)
  • Roman Catholic (23.9%)
  • Mormon (1.7%)
  • other Christian (1.6%)
  
  
• unaffiliated (12.1%)
• none (4%)
• other or unspecified (2.5%)
• Jewish (1.7%)
• Buddhist (0.7%)
• Muslim (0.6%)

So @ 78% of the U.S. believe in a Christian God.
Christian belief indicates at first there was nothing, then Adam and Eve and humans. It is mostly proven that Dinosaurs existed, therefore some version of cohabitation must of occurred. And if 78% of the population believe, then many of the Democratic Party also believe. Statistically there are about 3 Dems for every 2 registered Repubs, so the 78% means it is safe to eyeball at least half of the Dem party also believe in cohabitation. If they are true to their beliefs.

Religion and belief may be there ... but then again so is logic and reason.
I contest that reason and logic to that which is obvious (a non plausibility of this supposed cohabitation) overrides faith to some extent. Faith and science and logic and reason are not exclusive to each other. Most scientists who work daily on foundations of evolution and researching the big bang and all that claim to be Christian. None say it defies their religion to have logic in their lives. Curiosity is a human condition we can never escape - and THAT is why people work to either prove, or if needs be, disprove our oral traditions and mythologies - Christianity included in that pantheon of mythologies to be investigated.

[Snowman]

Damn dude firing with both barrels today...

[Big-J]

I for one believe the earth is roughly 6500 to 7000 years of age. I also believe that God created the dinosaurs and I also believe that man was around with the dinosaurs.

Where do you get your bad information from?

[bikernoj]

You want to know why I believe the dinosaurs aren't around anymore? Noah's Flood, and I believe God destroyed them because of their immense size(they would be something very hard for a shriking mankind to deal with).

So there you have it, my answer to everything is the Bible,

You actually BELIEVE that a single person built a wooden craft in the middle of a desert large enough to hold twenty million different animals that didn't eat anything for 40 to 150 days (not even your holy book is clear about that), and that after saving all these creatures Noah sacrificed half of them to God? (Wouldn't that make the species extinct?)

Wow, that's just frightening. Imagine how easy a society would be to control if they'd believe something as incredible as that! Wait a minute...

[puckstr]

Well if the church goers believe the "stuff of fairy tales" the preachers belch forth, then they are easily swayed in to voting the church's WILL.

Weak minds are easily led.

"You actually BELIEVE that a single person built a wooden craft in the middle of a desert large enough to hold twenty million different animals that didn't eat anything for 40 to 150 days (not even your holy book is clear about that), and that after saving all these creatures Noah sacrificed half of them to God? (Wouldn't that make the species extinct?)"

Seems rational..... Yeah right!

[rforsythe]

...after saving all these creatures Noah sacrificed half of them to God? (Wouldn't that make the species extinct?)

Technically he could have killed off all the males, assuming all females were pregnant with male young (then the male young breed with their female parent, and so on). Any deviation from this would result in extinction for a species however. Certainly explains that "down south" inbred look the Platypus has though.

Unless our little furry woodland creatures were impregnated by divine power too?

[puckstr]

Technically he could have killed off all the males, assuming all females were pregnant with male young (then the male young breed with their female parent, and so on). Any deviation from this would result in extinction for a species however. Certainly explains that "down south" inbred look the Platypus has though.

Unless our little furry woodland creatures were impregnated by divine power too?

Ralph now I have this image in my head

[Devaclis]

See signature /thread

[fullgrownbear]

Vance..

You need to do a little more research that's not so biased. Everything you're typing is soaked with subjectivity.

Your post's do not sound very objectively reasonable at all. In other words, it doesn't seem as though you have an opinion from "outside of the spectrum" but only within.

With that out of the way, lets look at this issue from an objectively reasonable viewpoint.

I think Warren said it well, when he said that "christians can think for themselves." I have to agree. Nobody needs their pastor telling them who to vote for. People should have enough intestinal fortitude, and honor, to go do the research for themselves.

The issue of creationism vs atheism is quite large, and I won't be able to even scratch the serface here, but I recommend you check out this book if you are interested in some hardcore disection of the topic. Here it is:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...kstorenow56-20

The book is titled, "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."

This book does a great job of coming at the issue of(creationism vs atheistm/darwinism) from an objective viewpoint.

It won't answer all your questions, and I don't suppose anything will answer every question that can be generated - that's where the element of faith comes in.

Faith is simply believing something because it has been proven to you beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that it's more likely something is true, than not true.

I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, because it takes more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God. Particularly the God of the Bible.

It's clear there is an amazing intelligent design - and designer - behind everything, down to the smallest one celled creature.

Did you know that the smallest one cell creature contains more than 300 billion bits and pieces of information? In fact, the smallest one cell creature is so complex, it could never have been generated from anything other than intelligent design.

Without ingelligent design, there is no design. Without a creator, there is no creation.

And don't give me that big bang crap. You and I both know you can't generate something from nothing. Matter is neither created nor destroyed in the event of a chemical reaction.

Check that book out. If you want to know more about it, I'll be happy to post some more.

[Devaclis]

Actually, it is not clear. If it were there would be not arguments on this subject.

Anyone can rationalize any subject they want to until they believe it. It does not make it true.

What part of carbon dating and tried, tested, and true scientific proof is not clear?

The argument is pointless because you are not going to change anyone's firm beliefs on a motorcycle forum.