The Democrats have ever intention of taking our guns...

[DavidofColorado]

Um, actually...

"The "Gun show loophole" is a term coined to describe the legal sale of firearms between private individuals at gun shows in states where this is legal. When these sales take place at a gun show, some perceive a "loophole" in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), although these laws have never applied to individual-to-individual sales of personal firearms. United States federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or who are in the business of selling firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and to perform checks prior to transferring a firearm, but there is an exemption for private sales by individuals who are "not engaged in the business" of selling firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales. Unlicensed private sellers are permitted by law to sell privately-owned guns at gun shows, or at private locations, in 24 states (as of 1998 )."

That's the way it is described.

Same thing as what he said mainly. All these new laws were written during the clinton years BTW. They wanted to add shotguns to the list of weapons that needed to be registered like a machine gun. They got the Striker 12 added but the Mossberg wasn't since they look different. But they can hold the same amount of shotgun shells.

In Colorado they have close the "Gunshow loophole" thanks to those 2 pukes in columbine. They also held up CCW for a year too since it was progun and was still to hot of a topic. Those 2 could have benifited from some real parenting.

[DavidofColorado]

Yea, I have pretty safe guns; I do however, believe in the rights of those wanting to collect mil spec/grade weapons. I used to have an HK 40 cal w/14 round clip. Took it to a gun show after clip ban and had folks bidding for it. Wish I had never sold it. I do respect the right to own weapons, and do believe if someone wants to kill someone they can and will find a way. I know folks will point to Columbine and say what if those kids had automatic weapons, but the real question is why were the guns available to them in the first place and not secured. Guess there is no easy answers. We can't legislate responsibility or anti-stupidity; otherwise, parents would take control of their children's education. I personally do not care to own an assualt rifle, but I do like shooting them. Had several occasions in the Navy of firing 50cal off the stern--big rush, especially since ammo was free.
I still want that Browning lightweight 308 lever action.

None of their guns were automatic. They had a pistol and a shotgun they made a lot of improvised explosives though. But no body is saying we should ban propane tanks.

Nice shooting a .50 is something I am going to have to do before I leave this cruel world.

[The Black Knight]

Um, actually...

"The "Gun show loophole" is a term coined to describe the legal sale of firearms between private individuals at gun shows in states where this is legal. When these sales take place at a gun show, some perceive a "loophole" in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), although these laws have never applied to individual-to-individual sales of personal firearms. United States federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or who are in the business of selling firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and to perform checks prior to transferring a firearm, but there is an exemption for private sales by individuals who are "not engaged in the business" of selling firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales. Unlicensed private sellers are permitted by law to sell privately-owned guns at gun shows, or at private locations, in 24 states (as of 1998 )."

That's the way it is described.

So therefore Cathy, if that's the way it's described. Then why the big fuss from anti-gunners and the rest of the groups? If it's o.k. by "LAW" for private sales, then technically there is no "loophole". A quick definition of loophole:
3. a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.:

However, since "Private Sellers" aren't technically under the FFL or Dealer laws, how can they then be breaking it? or in other words using it as a loophole?? If it's not breaking the law?

Look if NICS doesn't require(as with many states) a background check for "private sales", then there shouldn't be a debate about it.

A loophole would entail that dealers or FFL holders are somehow cheating the system. Yet they have a set of rules they must follow at gun shows, which just about all of them do follow. Yeah you might get a few rogue ones here and there. But remember obtaining your FFL is a thing you try and hang on to. You don't jeopardize it by making shady sales. So since the law in place only affects dealers or FFL holders, then private sellers are exempt from it, therefore not creating a "loophole", just bypassing it because they do not have to meet the requirements of that law.

You can't find a loophole in a law that is being exploited by individuals when they aren't under that law to begin with.

[DavidofColorado]

So they are calling something that is legal a "loophole"? That sounds fishy as hell? So doing anything currently legal that they don't like is a loophole? I guess we should start calling abortion a baby having loophole? Although I am pro-choice since I don't think crackwhores should be reproducing.

[AirAssault]

Didn't take the time to read every post, but if you believe the dems are going to try and take your guns you're a moron.

[mtnairlover]

So they are calling something that is legal a "loophole"? That sounds fishy as hell? So doing anything currently legal that they don't like is a loophole? I guess we should start calling abortion a baby having loophole? Although I am pro-choice since I don't think crackwhores should be reproducing.

David, you're not reading carefully.

If Joe, "The Private Seller" wanted to go to a gun show to sell his guns, he can do that legally. He can also sell to whomever he wants at a gun show. The loophole is when John, "The Criminal", goes to that same gun show to get a gun and he finds Joe "The Private Seller". Joe, "The Private Seller" does not have to (legally) put John, "The Criminal", through a background check. What some people like the Police Chiefs are trying to do is close that loophole so that even private sellers will be required to put potential purchasers of their guns through a background check if they sell at gun shows.

[puckstr]

None of their guns were automatic. They had a pistol and a shotgun they made a lot of improvised explosives though. But no body is saying we should ban propane tanks.

Nice shooting a .50 is something I am going to have to do before I leave this cruel world.

They also had a Hi-point Carbine ( semi-auto with 10 round Mag).

Wow gun Laws really stoped those two assholes from killing there classmates.

[Sortarican]

Fact check by CNN on one of the NRA commercials:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ns-and-rifles/

Is Obama pro-gun? No.
But he's not going to break into Dave's basement and steal his bb guns if you vote for him? No.

I've been a member of the NRA and I like the fact that they work to defend 2nd amendment rights.
But they get pretty extreme in their advacacy to say the least.
I like their firearm education and support of the various shooting sports, but the political side is a lobbying organization the same as any other.

Like most things the truth is usually somewhere between the two sides arguements.

I love firearms, ever since my first .22 all the way up to my latest restoration project 1894 and several M1 Garand rebuilds.
But let's face it, education, sensible limits (no guns on planes, in schools, in courts), and outright restriction of access by some people
(violent felons, juveniles, and the mentally impair (yes I mean you Dave), are neccessary.

Under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, I would not have been able to purchase any kind of AR15 or AK47 or .50 BMG, so yes I would not been able to own those guns during that period of time.

Under the ban I was able to buy both pre and post ban AR15's.
(Though I think you're right that the BMG and the import of a lot of AK's were restricted.)
Please clarify your example.

Why do you talk like you are speaking for more people than yourself? Is that some variable absolute liberal bias that I am senseing there?

LOL,
Just wondering Dave. Did you actually type that with a striaght face?
Seriously, major kettle/pot action there man.

The whole "take the guns away" argument rings pretty hollow. ...- they will keep eroding 'till there is nothing left....

Great point. It's the ever popular "slippery slope arguement" whenever there's a perceived attack on civil rights.
Whether it used in the gun or abortion debate it's usually an argument that used to generates a quick emotional response (fear)
more than it is to truely inform people.
Arguments like that typically generate more heat than light.

well if you don't think it can't happen in America Cathy, just look at Australia and England. Both countries have instituted gun bans and confiscations or gun turn-ins...

Apples and Oranges BK.
Those countries never had gun rights written in as a cornerstone of their civilain right like the US does.
And I've found the stories of people being dragged off in the middle of the night or their olympic teams having to go to another country to practice because they can't use guns in their home country are usually urban legends.

[dirkterrell]

Apples and Oranges BK.
Those countries never had gun rights written in as a cornerstone of their civilain right like the US does.

1689, Bill of Rights passed by the Parliament of England:

"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law"

Dirk

[puckstr]

1689, Bill of Rights passed by the Parliament of England:

"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law"

Dirk

I love the caveat "as allowed by law"

Talk about a loophole

[TFOGGuys]

David, you're not reading carefully.

If Joe, "The Private Seller" wanted to go to a gun show to sell his guns, he can do that legally. He can also sell to whomever he wants at a gun show. The loophole is when John, "The Criminal", goes to that same gun show to get a gun and he finds Joe "The Private Seller". Joe, "The Private Seller" does not have to (legally) put John, "The Criminal", through a background check. What some people like the Police Chiefs are trying to do is close that loophole so that even private sellers will be required to put potential purchasers of their guns through a background check if they sell at gun shows.

Not under Colorado law....


12-26.1-101. Background checks at gun shows - penalty.

(1) Before a gun show vendor transfers or attempts to transfer a firearm at a gun show, he or she shall:
(a) require that a background check, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S., be conducted of the prospective transferee; and
(b) obtain approval of a transfer from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation after a background check has been requested by a licensed gun dealer, in accordance with section 24-33.5-424, C.R.S.
(2) A gun show promoter shall arrange for the services of one or more licensed gun dealers on the premises of the gun show to obtain the background checks required by this article.
(3) If any part of a firearm transaction takes place at a gun show, no firearm shall be transferred unless a background check has been obtained by a licensed gun dealer.
(4) Any person violating the provisions of this section commits a class 1 misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided in section 18-1.3-501, C.R.S.

Source: Initiated 2000: Entire article added, effective March 31, 2001, proclamation of the Governor issued December 28, 2000. L. 2002: (4) amended, p. 1476, § 63, effective October 1.

Cross references: For the legislative declaration contained in the 2002 act amending subsection (4), see section 1 of chapter 318, Session Laws of Colorado 2002.

12-26.1-106. Definitions.

As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:

(1) "Collection" means a trade, barter, or in-kind exchange for one or more firearms.

(2) "Firearm" means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges, or other explosive charges.

(3) "Gun show" means the entire premises provided for an event or function, including but not limited to parking areas for the event or function, that is sponsored to facilitate, in whole or in part, the purchase, sale, offer for sale, or collection of firearms at which:

(a) twenty-five or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange; or

(b) not less than three gun show vendors exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange firearms.

(4) "Gun show promoter" means a person who organizes or operates a gun show.

(5) "Gun show vendor" means any person who exhibits, sells, offers for sale, transfers, or exchanges, any firearm at a gun show, regardless of whether the person arranges with a gun show promoter for a fixed location from which to exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange any firearm.

(6) "Licensed gun dealer" means any person who is a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or dealer licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. sec. 923, as amended, as a federally licensed firearms dealer.

[dirkterrell]

I love the caveat "as allowed by law"

Talk about a loophole

Probably why the Founding Fathers worded the 2nd Amendment the way they did: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Dirk

[Rhino]

David, you're not reading carefully.

If Joe, "The Private Seller" wanted to go to a gun show to sell his guns, he can do that legally. He can also sell to whomever he wants at a gun show. The loophole is when John, "The Criminal", goes to that same gun show to get a gun and he finds Joe "The Private Seller". Joe, "The Private Seller" does not have to (legally) put John, "The Criminal", through a background check. What some people like the Police Chiefs are trying to do is close that loophole so that even private sellers will be required to put potential purchasers of their guns through a background check if they sell at gun shows.

They have signs posted that state to the effect "all firearms transfers on this property, including the parking lot must go through a background check". It can quickly be pointed out that the Wendy's across the street does not fall under that jurisdiction. A further problem is that, for example Columbine, at least one of the guns was made by the girlfriend of one of them. A "straw" purchase. Even if they did the background check on the girl, at the end of the day, the gun was in the bad guys' hands.

To say that Democrats want to take our guns serves only to immediately polarize this topic. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...10-6257...Lots of R's there, huh? I'm not sure if the mods would allow "Shit Sucking Politicians are trying to ban guns" as a thread title though. David: We (gun owners) know... People like Zeta who only have the "Fudd" guns won't care. ...and you're scaring the Cathy's with your... enthusiasm?

To say this is "fear mongering", that too can be said of the first ban. It was titled as a "Crime Bill", even though most law enforcement were the ones quick to point out that so called "assault weapons" were a very minimal fraction of gun crimes. The politicians who fight so hard for it had very little idea of what they are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo
There have only been 2 crimes commited with "legal" fully automatics, and one was a cop. The bank shootout in Kali a few years back were illegally converted guns used by CRIMINALS.

For those who don't follow the issues, certain politicians have seemingly made it their goal to make it difficult to have the 2nd mean anything. They usually have a "D" by their name. For example: Hillary Clinton, Barak O, and Ted kennedy sat on the oversight committe for OSHA. Last year, they tried to push a new policy, declaring ammunition as "explosives" and pushing for extremely stringent limits on how retailers could store it. I.e. if there is a lightning storm within 10 miles, the store must be shut down. Do you think Walmart would continue to carry ammo? It was viewed as a very sneaky attempt at a backdoor ban of guns, by making it extremely hard to acquire ammunition. As BK pointed out, the NRA and other groups got the word out and OSHA delayed the ruling until it got more feedback.

One only needs to look to Obama's home turf to see the effects of "gun control". He was the one who pointed out that more people (Americans) died in Chicago than Iraq this year. Do you honestly believe it was a bunch of law abiding gun owners running around killing each other? The problem is the people. You can show a direct connection between active gun control against law abiding citizens and an increase in gun crimes by criminals in places like Chicago, D.C., etc.

As BK pointed out, you can still get full auto, etc. It has just become cost prohibitive with the laws. The very popular AR-15 can be had for $700+ A full auto M-16 is around $15k+, with only minor internal part differences. The cost increase is the artificial rarity of them due to the law. Check out Knob Creek on Youtube to see those who still "pay to play". You can still get a great many things, as long as you are willing to pay the "tax". Including a 20mm for less than a new R1, http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm (and you thought a .50 cal was badass!)

What should be troubling is the number of people who are arming up. Many expect disorder after the election regardless of who wins...refer to JSDude's thread. There are loud whispers, even on this forum (I think NN mentioned it first in the Obama tax thread), about a 2nd civil war. The sheer number of first timers who are buying guns has me worried. They have no experience, training, etc. For you non-gunners, think of giving a 16 y/o with no experience a 1000cc and no gear.


To this day, Ted Kennedy's car killed more people than all my guns combined.

[VFR]

I heard someone say "Why can't we have bombs and missiles and things like that"

Here is your answer why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

All terrorist do not live in Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Afganistan....Some are just doors down from you. Now give them their rights to said above items.

[puckstr]

I heard someone say "Why can't we have bombs and missiles and things like that"

Here is your answer why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

All terrorist do not live in Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Afganistan....Some are just doors down from you. Now give them their rights to said above items.

I prefer a bulldozer
http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4126256.html

Point is there are ways to destroy and kill when a person is motivated and LAWS will NEVER stop the ones that are hell-bent on destruction.

[TFOGGuys]

1689, Bill of Rights passed by the Parliament of England:

"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law"

Dirk

Well, that at least gives them the right to persecute and disenfranchise the Catholics, Jews, and Muslims.....

[VFR]

I prefer a bulldozer
http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4126256.html

Point is there are ways to destroy and kill when a person is motivated and LAWS will NEVER stop the ones that are hell-bent on destruction.

Agreed but that doesn't mean we should make them easier to get, and legal on top of that to have.

Replace all the legal to own fertilizer with legal to own C-4. I believe the damage would have been much more extensive

[VFR]

I believe what David is trying to say is: If your a gun owner your chances of keeping things the same are with McCain

If guns aren't your thing then he's not addressing you. I just toned in because I saw the make C-4 and military based weapons available to everyone and thought that was the most retarded thing I have heard in awhile.

"Hey my dad has some C-4 and a det cord in the garage, want to see it?"

[Sortarican]

All terrorist do not live in Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, Afganistan....DavidofDenver is just doors down from you....

^^^^Fixed it for you.

1689, "That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law"

Fook the Protestants!
(Sorry, you got my Irish up.)

Hell, they outlawed bagpipes for the love of God!

They have signs posted that state to the effect "all firearms transfers on this property, including the parking lot must go through a background check".....

Mad me laugh the first time I saw that they actually state no sneaking off the the parking lot to make a deal.

The only real loopholes that I've heard of relate to that in some states with 3 day waiting periods on handguns the gunshows are exempt.
The shows don't typically run long enough to allow an out of town seller or buyer to do any business Sat./Sun. if they're leaving on Mon.
And also if a firearm is considered to be an antique (historic) collectible I think many states allow direct sales.
'Cause really, who's gonna try to rob a 7-11 with a 1680's blunderbust?
(Well, besides David of Denver.)

[TFOGGuys]

Fook the Protestants!
(Sorry, you got my Irish up.)

Hell, they outlawed bagpipes for the protection of everyone's hearing!



Mad me laugh the first time I saw that they actually state no sneaking off the the parking lot to make a deal.

The only real loopholes that I've heard of relate to that in some states with 3 day waiting periods on handguns the gunshows are exempt.
The shows don't typically run long enough to allow an out of town seller or buyer to do any business Sat./Sun. if they're leaving on Mon.
And also if a firearm is considered to be an antique (historic) collectible I think many states allow direct sales.
'Cause really, who's gonna try to rob a 7-11 with a 1680's blunderbust?
(Well, besides David of Denver.)

Federal law governs sales of Relics and Curios as well. That Trapdoor Springfield is not likely to be used in a robbery.....

[Sortarican]

Federal law governs sales of Relics and Curios as well. That Trapdoor Springfield is not likely to be used in a robbery.....

I don't know.
If I wanted to mug a buffalo I think it'd be my weapon of choice.

But I'm pretty sure that even reproductions of historic/antique/curioi/relic firearms are not regulated to the same level as other firearms.
Hence why you can get blackpowder firearms mailorder without a background check.

[TFOGGuys]

I don't know.
If I wanted to seduce a buffalo I think it'd be my weapon of choice.

Fixed

[Sortarican]

I don't know.
If I wanted to seduce a buffalo I think sex panther cologne would be my weapon of choice.

Fixed

Fixed your fix.

[DavidofColorado]

David, you're not reading carefully.

If Joe, "The Private Seller" wanted to go to a gun show to sell his guns, he can do that legally. He can also sell to whomever he wants at a gun show. The loophole is when John, "The Criminal", goes to that same gun show to get a gun and he finds Joe "The Private Seller". Joe, "The Private Seller" does not have to (legally) put John, "The Criminal", through a background check. What some people like the Police Chiefs are trying to do is close that loophole so that even private sellers will be required to put potential purchasers of their guns through a background check if they sell at gun shows.

I know all about the gun laws. I read gun laws for fun and horror. In Colorado every firearm for sale at a gunshow or initiated there has to go thru a proper background check thru a licensed FFL dealer. The law states 3 or more people getting together to buy or sell a gun is a gun show! They charge a small fee to run your check for you, you fill out the form 4470 that is 3 forms except the last page which ironicly talks about the reduction of paperwork act. They run your name and tell the voice over the phone what kind of gun you are buying and the serial number (which doesn't make sense since they aren't suppose to keep those records past 24 hours anyway unless they are making a backdoor registration) the computers around the world start clicking away those real to real computers start spinning, morse code is sent to spy's in the middle east and a computer calls your grandma to ask if you have been a good boy... or whatever they do? They they come back and you either get a check mark next to your name that says you have been approved to practice your constitutional rights or they get a denied signal and you are blocked from exerciseing your rights. The gun dealer pulls your gun away in case you grab and run and writes a series of numbers on another form tell you if you want to practice your rights you have to prove your inocense by mailing off this form. Which also means you have to get a lawyer drive all over town 3 times stand in endless lines pay a nickle for every form they print out and take it to court. And that gun that you wanted when you were 21 you may get when you are 27 instead. Why? The buerocratic nature of the beast and the gun regulations that have been put in for your safety have made it this way. While criminals would have just stolen a gun long before then. Which makes up a larger percentage of blackmarket guns then gunshows. People are made to wait 6 years to frustrate you until you are to old and feble to remember what you wanted to get a gun for self defense in the first place. OK rant over.
Yeah a private sale between people is outside of the Federal powers to regulate interstate comerce. It is upto an individalal state to regulate that but the gun grabbers think that is just to much work to go State by State to regulate private sales they said things like what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. They want to cover the whole country in one big gun regulation that will never get removed. And its a great way to get a backdoor registration in case they want a voluntary turn in program. But that could never happen here, I am just being paranoid, that has never happened anywhere else. Right?

And people selling guns to each other with in the law doesn't scare me one bit. I on occation buy a gun or 2 that way and I save a butt load of money doing it that way. When you don't have alot of money but an expensive gun habbit it makes sense to do it that way. Information is power.