T's Noob Question of the week - Riding the Turns!

[jimwallace]

1.I want to know the motivation that "we" have". I want to know why we blow turns at uncaring speeds with no supposed consequence on the other end??? Really???



2.I want to know why we, as sportbikes, feel the need to blow turns out of the water on the "street"?



3.And furthermore, I want to know that if I'm missing something, why am I not willing to do it? Why won't I follow you or anybody else at fucking insane paces? Why are you guys so damed fast in those blind faith turns? What the heck makes me think harder in each turn as though I have something to lose that you don't?

1.i think this is different for all of us. some like the ability to have control at such levels, others like the loss of control, and some just like the rush, ect ect.


2. not just sportbikes, but cars, trucks, cruisers ect. too.


3.you simply havent found the reason for yourself to do so. you may find it or you may not. its up to you and entirely fine either way.

[Nick_Ninja]

T,

It's all about developing confidence. You do that through experience --- and making mistakes. It helps to know the road and to know what to 'expect' around the corner. An example I can provide here is I slow way down on known roads with wildlife access to water in the late afternoon as these migration paths tend to be populated at that time. There is no guarantee that deer won't be on their way to the watering hole at any time but it seems to be more popular at sunset.

In the winter I take the outside, weighted tire track in the turns (right turns in the left tire track and left turns in the right tire track) to avoid sand accumulation on the road.

Just two tidbits I continue to use to survive this 'sport'.

[UglyDogRacing]

Jim you know exactly why I want the answer. You should know why I want it more than anybody.

I post these questions for others to learn from. Not that I don't hope to benefit, because they are my true questions the more that I ride.

I want to know the motivation that "we" have". I want to know why we blow turns at uncaring speeds with no supposed consequence on the other end??? Really???

I want to know why we, as sportbikes, feel the need to blow turns out of the water on the "street"?

And furthermore, I want to know that if I'm missing something, why am I not willing to do it? Why won't I follow you or anybody else at fucking insane paces? Why are you guys so damed fast in those blind faith turns? What the heck makes me think harder in each turn as though I have something to lose that you don't?

"Ride your horse along the edge of a sword; hide yourself in the middle of flames...."

[mtnairlover]

T,

It's all about developing confidence. You do that through experience --- and making mistakes. It helps to know the road and to know what to 'expect' around the corner. An example I can provide here is I slow way down on known roads with wildlife access to water in the late afternoon as these migration paths tend to be populated at that time. There is no guarantee that deer won't be on their way to the watering hole at any time but it seems to be more popular at sunset.

In the winter I take the outside, weighted tire track in the turns (right turns in the left tire track and left turns in the right tire track) to avoid sand accumulation on the road.

Just two tidbits I continue to use to survive this 'sport'.

Jeff hit this one outta the park.

I was gonna post this with the last one where I mentioned being intimate with the roads...this is what I mean by intimate...

I was gonna include in one of my responses that I don't just know roads because I've been on them a whole lot, but because of other conditions like weather, the shape of the road/age, width of the road, rock walls by the road and what happens during bad weather around those rock walls, and so much more stuff. The Earth and nature is a tad more predictable than people are IMO. Even paying attention to traffic flow in the canyons with cars helps to predict whether or not there may be animals in the road around the next turn, which actually happened last year to me.

Basically, my senses are heightened in every sense...not just my feeling from the bike, but everything else around me.

[asp_125]

... in the late afternoon as these migration paths tend to be populated at that time. There is no guarantee that deer won't be on their way to the watering hole at any time but it seems to be more popular at sunset.

Corollary: in the late afternoon as these migration paths tend to be populated at that time. There is no guarantee that bar hoppers won't be on their way to the watering hole at any time but it seems to be more popular at sunset.

I see you've ridden past the Little Bear in Evergreen on a summer afternoon.

[Nick_Ninja]

Corollary: in the late afternoon as these migration paths tend to be populated at that time. There is no guarantee that bar hoppers won't be on their way to the watering hole at any time but it seems to be more popular at sunset.

I see you've ridden past the Little Bear in Evergreen on a summer afternoon.

Never past ----- directly to the front door and to the bar.

[Bueller]

How do you hit those blind turns never knowing if your 75% or 100% is enough or too much to be safe? Or even better, within your ability - that you are 100% confident that you can handle it?

Seat time has taught me I don't panic in crash avoidance situations.
Honey you could be riding up dear creek in a straight and high visibility situation hand have a deer jet out of the woods and t-bone you, they aren't very bright you know. Or some jackweed drops a cig in his lap and swerves into your lane looking for it , or a million different scenario's
I think you might be a bit over anxious. Just keep riding, the more seat time the more comfortable you will get. It is all about risk management.
Do you see a pattern in T's questions?

[CHRISTIAN COWBOY]

[quote=Bueller;405215]Seat time has taught me I don't panic in crash avoidance situations.
Honey you could be riding up dear creek in a straight and high visibility situation hand have a deer jet out of the woods and t-bone you, they aren't very bright you know.

Been there!!
Done that!
We were riding 10 strong and a deer came out of nowhere and picked a guy off his bike, in the middle of the pack.
Was with gixxercarrie and we had to limp the guy home.

[TFOGGuys]

Terri, there's some things that helped me when I was a noob, that I use to this day:

1. Look as far up the road as you possibly can. the earlier you can see a hazard, the more time you have to react and avoid it.

2. Related to the above, position yourself to see as much of the upcoming turns as possible, and use a slower entry and later turn in, so you can see more before you commit to a line.

3. Use the "vanishing point" to help set entry speed. This is the point where the sides of the road appear to come together. As it gets closer to you, reduce throttle or brake. As the vanishing point moves further up the road, you can accelerate.

4. Brake hard early, set corner speed, and accelerate through the corner. Late turn in and apexes almost always yield maximum vision, and give you a better chance of reacting to the odd corner that tightens more than you expect.

5. When (not if) you think you're going too fast in a corner, trust your tires and bike. If your tires are still on the ground, you CAN turn in tighter and make the corner. Just release the brake, hold the throttle open a little, and lean on the inside bar. This has saved my bacon more than once in the last 25 years.

6. As others have stated, leave a reserve. My personal limit on the street is 49% of flat out, figured as 70% of MY ability multiplied by 70% of the available traction. This will vary based on how I feel, and the road conditions. I never feel the need to ride over my head to keep up with a vastly better (or less cautious) rider. If I happen to lose them, I'll catch up at the next stop. Or not. If not, I can find my way home. Conversely, I'll stop and wait for slower riders to regroup.

I hope this helps

[InlineSIX24]

..No matter how good you are, you're gonna get screwed going around that turn with speed regardless of skill. No? Am I wrong here?

I'm with you on that one. I find myself letting the front of the pack go and riding back a bit because I've seen what happens when people push it and run into a hazard around a blind turn, from close calls and rear tire washout on gravel to hitting a patch of rocks and having no place to go. That keeps me from riding to the point where I would go down. I worry more about those then slow moving cars. I've come around corners and almost hit deer, ..at least with those you have a chance that they will run out of your way. I think that always having those in the back of mind has probably kept me from becoming a better rider in some ways, but I don't look forward to lying in a hospital bed for a month in a body cast, or worse.

[Sean]

How do you guys do spirited runs, and take those turns so fast not knowing what is on the other side?

Stupidity. Lets face it, not knowing what is around the next corner and going fast through it is just plain dumb. It's the adrenaline that drives us to do it every time.

I can hold a line (ish - not so much on a good ADHD day), and I work on it every time I'm out. But when I am in a blind turn in the canyons, I just can't help but wonder if there is a deer, a car stalled, an accident causing the oh shit factor as I see myself going over the rear of the car. My mind goes there every single time. Which distracts me from my riding and focusing on skill.

Sometimes it's good to hold a line, but sometimes it's not. On the street it's just as important to be able to break the line and get through the corner. The "oh shit" factor is confidence. As many have said in this post, don't ride out of your comfort level. The track is the place to push your abilities, not the street. Do what feels comfortable and controllable. When you push to hard out of your comfort zone, bad things happen.

Even at a slow pace I'm usually still around 20MPH over the speed limit in those turns. And most of you guys are WAY ahead of me.

I've never been on a ride where anybody was mocked for their lack of speed. If I did come across a person like that, I probably wouldn't ride with them again. It's about enjoyment, fun and safety. If someone doesn't agree, we don't need to ride together. Again, push the limits at the track, not the street. If someone falls behind a little bit, people always wait to assure the safety of all of the riders.

I find myself being more comfortable in my abilities on the sweepers because I don't have to worry my lil head about what if's. Therefore I'm more confident in those turns and ride a wee bit better and stonger and faster then on the blind turns.

Practice. Try practicing blind turns, but start slowly. Last year, I rode the same twisty/blind cornered road everyday on my lunch hour, just to get better at it. And it worked. Or do it with someone you trust and that can hep you with some techniques/roads.

How do I get over it? Or should I? How do you guys do it? What is the faith in those blind turns at speed?

Ride your own ride and get better, just like you've done at the track. Be patient and don't push harder than you need to. Just be safe

Disclaimer: Take everything I saw as personal opinion. I'm not nearly as seasoned as some of the people on here.

[Sortarican]

Great points, all of them.

I dunno...I thought everyone does what I do...

And that would be what..........crash?

There have only been maybe 3 people in the whole CSC who have EVER told me I was too slow....

Yeah, but in my defense, I wasn't talking about your riding.

I Think, Therefore I Am. That's why.

You lost Jim at "think".

...I still don't have an answer about running those turns at those kind of speeds on blind faith.

OK, seriously:
1) Never use blind faith. It should always be based on your feel for your, and your bikes, abilities and expected road conditions.
Sunrise and sunset, expect a higher chance of deer being out, reduce speed.
Winter/Spring, expect more crap on the road, reduce speed.
Weekends in a popular hiking/biking/sightseeing area, expect bonehead moves, reduce speed.

2) This state does a pretty good job of consistently grading turns, so a curve marked at 35mph in one canyon is usually going to be about the same in the next.

3) Take right handers a little slower than lefthanders. Loosing it in a right turn puts you in the path of oncoming traffic.

4) Practice and get in the habit of tightening a turn.
Bailing out of a turn is easy, just stand the bike up and you'll go wide 100% of the time.
But getting used to adding a couple degrees of lean and (lightly) throttling up in the middle of a turn takes a little practice.
Also another reason to never ride past a certain % (I like to stay below 60% on the street).

5) Practice braking/scrubbing speed in corners.
I wouldn't recommend doing too much this on the street at realtime speeds.
Practice it at the track or a parking lot.

[MetaLord 9]

This is gonna echo what a lot of folks have said, but it doesn't make it less true. Riding well within your own abilities gives you a margin of error without getting into the "there but for the grace of God" abilities.

On unknown roads I'm a lot slower through blind corners because I've got more to take in and process, like where the road goes, which line I need to take, which line I'm currently on, etc. On known roads I'll hit 'em a little harder around the blind corners because I know where the road is gonna be and I've only got to look for road hazards. That said, if I blow around a corner and find myself in the middle of a hairy situation, I know I've ALWAYS got options. Since I'm riding at no more than 60%-70% of my overall abilities, I know I've got another 30%-40% left as "save my ass" skills. If I come around a corner hot and see some unexpected debris in the road I'm likely to pull up a little, scrub some speed off, and then get back into the turn with a new line that will help me get around the danger. OR if I see a better line on the inside then have confidence in the bike and your own abilities to lean a little farther and give it a little more throttle to pull that tighter line. That extra left over ability is there for you to make adjustments without being in serious trouble.

Just remember, you ALWAYS have options. The more you get comfortable and confident in panic situations and at higher speeds, the better you will get at making the best decisions. When you hit something like that you've got just immediately go into what you're going to do, panicing takes up time that you don't have.

And sometimes you come across that situation where you've got to strongly considering doing the unthinkable: dumping the bike to save your ass. I came through a corner at the end of the day last summer and the sun was at the worst possible spot and completely blinded me. I might as well have taken the turn with my eyes closed. I thought to myself "Ok, I'm pretty sure I know where this turn goes so I'm riding for that line. If it's not where I think it is, I'm gonna have to low side the bike and slide out." Road rash and conversations with insurance are always preferable to a dirt nap.

As far as the speed goes, ride your own pace and practice good group riding. I think it's good to push yourself so that you can grow your own abilities but don't ride so far out of your comfort zone that youre face is constantly in panic look. Go quick for you and if it's not quick enough for someone else, wave them around when it's safe and talk out what you think you did well and what you would like some help/advice with at the next stop. Do that and you'll always make it to the next stop.

[SaShWhO]

Great discussion btw. I think all newbies should read this.

+1
make it a mandatory read!!

[Slo]

I think there will always be "risk" whether your on 2 or 4 wheels, hell there is always risk in general. I believe that you can, however, like many mentioned previously, "minimize the risk your taking". Some stated that riding within your means is the way to go, problem is, most people interpret this as "I made it through the turn without crossing lines".

To me, riding within your means is exactly what Jim (ugly dog racing)stated.... Riding at best 75% of your potential for feeling comfy... This way you will have that abilitiy and time to react to as much as possible for anything unseen, I call it "keeping a margin for error"....

[64BonnieLass]

Great points everyone.

One of my reasons for posting these types of questions, as I do from time to time, is for that great discussion to transpire.

It's really pretty cool to read some of the great comments and to see where there is a common theme amongst us as riders.

Also, if others read it and are able to learn only one thing, or take something positive from the conversation then it's good for all of us.

Thanks guys.

[Snowman]

Terri, the great educator…

[ihavealegohead]

I have a question regarding faith in the turns in the canyons.

How do you guys do spirited runs, and take those turns so fast not knowing what is on the other side?

From personal experience there isn't much you can do about the deer. (Fucking DEER!!)

If your a FOG like me with kids and responsibility you might just let the kids do those corners and catch up on the straights.

That said, when I do corners faster then I should I just hope that when I'm about to hit something I can either slip to the side or try to make the collision a little less painful.

Another point worth mentioning -- if your the last in the group, hopefully all your buddies crash ahead of you and either a) give you warning b) pile up a bunch of soft bodies for you to run into.

In the case of A) get the experienced riders right in front of you, giving you a few split seconds notice.

In case of B) try to find the fattest guy on the smallest bike,and ride behind him. It's also worth mentioning that fatter guys tend to be more flachulent. Hopefully if he or she is fat enough, the bike will slide away providing you a softer collision point.

[Jim_Vess]

Another point worth mentioning -- if your the last in the group, hopefully all your buddies crash ahead of you and either a) give you warning b) pile up a bunch of soft bodies for you to run into.

In the case of A) get the experienced riders right in front of you, giving you a few split seconds notice.

In case of B) try to find the fattest guy on the smallest bike,and ride behind him. It's also worth mentioning that fatter guys tend to be more flachulent. Hopefully if he or she is fat enough, the bike will slide away providing you a softer collision point.

Note to self: When riding in groups, follow the fat guy.

[King Nothing]

I don't have any faith in the road. I have faith that my bike will do what it was designed to do and what I ask it to do. It has the potential to do so much more than I could ever ask of it.

[Bueller]

I lean more when I go faster, don't know why but it works for me

[Bueller]

Have you re read this thread? Do you see the improvement in your riding since you first started this?

[Nick_Ninja]

Ride more. Ride fast. Take chances. Until you condition your mind that it is OK to take chances (risk) you won't progress. Simple concept. Not to be condescending or confrontational.

[64BonnieLass]

Kapowww..Just read old posts. This one was awesome.

A few of us who shall remain nameless (but who have posted in this thread ) have been up and down 7 so many times we know the corners in our sleep. On other roads I will dial it back even more since I am not familiar with the corners. Nevertheless, I keep that "what if" thought in the back of my mind; it's the angel on your shoulder balancing the devil in your right hand. Never ride faster than you can brake, never ride with the thought of keeping up or trying not to be the turtle in front.

The 3 keys are: smoothness, precision, and control. Smooth enough to not need to scrub off speed suddenly or throw the bike around more than you need to; overreacting upsets the balance of the bike. Precise enough to hit all of your marks all of the time, and always remain in control. If you rush a corner you will give up one or more of the three items. Most riders don't automatically become fast, they creep up to it.

As for confidence? Develop a trust in your abilities, in your tires, and a healthy respect of the road conditions. Know when you can hang it out a bit, versus when to back it down.