I wish this was an April Fool's joke....

[= Buckeye Jess =]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......

Well as someone that is chin deep in this country's medical crisis as a patient and a worker both, I think I have a few things to say about it. I don't want the same coverage as every Joe on the street. I want to be afforded the luxury of CHOOSING the kind of coverage I have. I want to dictate my own health care and not be forced into anything. Universal coverage works for some folks, I've heard every argument on both sides of the fence. If you like it and want it, then move to where you can get it!
I want a healthy competition between the companies offering me their policies. I sure as hell don't want some politician in DC telling me what is best for me or my body, nor do I want them dictating HOW I care for myself by choosing my health insurance!

[Snowman]

I think Jess is started…

[TFOGGuys]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject. Why shouldn't every citizen of this country have the same health care that all the douchebags in our Congress have, or that of our military members? No one should go broke because they got sick......

If it ended at universal emergency care, that might be ok. In the UK, the NHS is so awful, anyone who can afford private insurance/care does so. My objection is this: I have been to the doctor a grand total of twice in the last 28 years. I pay for so so insurance through my wife's work, just in case of a catastophic incident. Under a nationalized system, my contribution (tax burden) is averaged with the douchebags that call an ambulance every time they get the hiccoughs. Thus, I get to pay as much or more as "frequent flyers", as the EMTs at Denver Health call them, since I actually PAY income/self employment taxes. Add in a new and greater bureaucracy to make things less efficient, and my value for dollar invested is even lower. It's also hard to imagine that any nationalized health system is going to attract the best talent (think about the DMV ).

[= Buckeye Jess =]

When an ambulance picks up some uninsured person having a heart attack, they call around to see who'll take the poor bastard. When every other hospital turns them away, they dump him in TMC's ER.

Then Truman Medical Center gets the privilege of eating the $250,000 charge for that heart attack. Which they then turn around and try to cover by getting more money from the feds and state. So we do have universal health care in this country, hell even Bush admitted to it one time: ERs in our rapidly-dwindling public hospitals. And we end up paying for it through the feds and states anyway.

Uhh...maybe things are run different in KC, but that's not how it flies in Colorado. I pick up a person having a heart attack or any true emergency, they go to the closest appropriate (as in the right docs and equipment) facility for that particular emergency. Any hospital that gets any federal funds (read: Medicare/aid) is not allowed to refuse an EMERGENT patient based on their ability to pay. EMTALA protects the patient that is truly having a crisis/emergency. This also goes along with facilities designated as trauma centers or cardiac centers and such. Even when those ER's are on divert to ambulance traffic, any activation (trauma, cardiac, stroke..etc) overrides the diversion. The hospital MUST accept that patient and at a minimum, stabilize them. After the patient is stabilized, they can then ship them out as they deem prudent.

You'll hear about ERs refusing to treat patients after they are briefly assessed and it is determined that they are not suffering an emergency. Seems to me that one of the University hospitals (can't remember if this was here or back in OH) tried to institute a policy where they would do this assessment and charge the non-emergent folks accordingly. If I remember correctly, it didn't last long.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

I think Jess is started…

LOL....I'm honestly trying to hold back here b/c it gets to the point that I get so damned pissed off that I cease to speak in laymen's terms and be sensible.

[Wintermute]

Did you read my post above, Gixxer? I explained how we, all of us including you, are already paying for it. Paying too much for it.

[Snowman]

LOL....I'm honestly trying to hold back here b/c it gets to the point that I get so damned pissed off that I cease to speak in laymen's terms and be sensible.

You start calling people Nazis don’t you.

[Wintermute]

Thanks for the info, Jess. Why would I piss you off?

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.

[Shea]

Did you read my post above, Gixxer? I explained how we, all of us including you, are already paying for it. Paying too much for it.

My question still stands Winter. We can talk about the "truly needy" and then we can talk about the rest of us. I think Jess spoke to your post and I can back it up with my own experiences (and EMT friends).

But it still comes down to, why are your decisions my responsibility? Answer that and then we can discuss Universal Health Care/Single Payer Insurance, whatever the name du jour is...

[dirkterrell]

How many of you that bitch and moan about universal health care have ever lived in a country that has had such a system? If you haven't then you basically have no clue what you're talking about and should shut up about the subject.

I lived in Canada for a year, so I guess that means I get to have an opinion? And how do you know what people know and don't know about a subject? Let people speak and refute their claims.

Dirk

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Thanks for the info, Jess. Why would I piss you off?

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.

Nah, the pissed comment wasn't about you or your post wintermute! Twas in response to Randal trying to egg me on. Trust me, I love a healthy debate on the topic (even if I do get worked up about it,) but I can't stand being told that I don't know anything about socialized medicine or anything about medicine in general until I've experienced it elsewhere.

[Wintermute]

Because we live in a society, Gix. Societies, starting with families and working your way up, take care of the sick and defenseless.

It's a big part of what separates us from animals.

There is a mile of middle ground between a nanny state and the expensive, inept neglect of our current system.

[Snowman]

Nah, the pissed comment wasn't about you or your post wintermute! Twas in response to Randal trying to egg me on.

Hmm egg and warm oatmeal…
This is sounding better all the time.

[Shea]

Because we live in a society, Gix. Societies, starting with families and working your way up, take care of the sick and defenseless.

It's a big part of what separates us from animals.

There is a mile of middle ground between a nanny state and the expensive, inept neglect of our current system.

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

My point is still valid. After the patient is stabilized, where do they go? They don't just magically disappear. They go to the POLR.

Also the biggie is providing cheap preventative instead of curative care.

I will admit... there is a breakdown in the system at this point, but I don't think it is because we don't have universal healthcare. It is difficult to pinpoint one specific thing that put us where we are, but it is a rather cumulative issue.

I agree 100% though that we need to work more on the preventative side of things!

To further respond to the attack on those of us that have never lived in places with socialized medicine.... so what? I have medical insurance and always have. I've had a number of medical issues in the recent past including a week in the ICU over the summer. Despite the fact that I have insurance, I'm still strapped over a barrel b/c of the costs. Would a universal healthcare plan fix that situation? Maybe, but I'm not convinced it would. I'll gladly take getting leaned over and screwed on costs as opposed to not being able to dictate my own care and make my own choices. Don't you EVER restrict my freedom of choice on who cares for me, where they care for me and how they do it!

[Shea]

Why I don't want UHC:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/...nt_er_patients

[TFOGGuys]

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

Speaking of government coercion....

GIVE act passes Senate

[= Buckeye Jess =]

Why I don't want UHC:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/...nt_er_patients

Grrrr... and these are the same SOB's that bitch and moan because they have to wait six hours in the waiting room to get seen while we are thumping on the chest of the dude having the big one!

Go to a primary care doc or god forbid...an urgent care for your flipping sore throat next time and John Q. Taxpayer won't have to pay $3k for it! Don't get me wrong..I understand that there are very specific instances where someone may need to seek care in an ER for a non emergency - but nowhere NEAR the numbers that replace their PCPs with ERs.

[Wintermute]

So your solution is for an immense takeover of 17% of the GDP of the country by an inept, inefficient, bureaucratic nightmare? One that, frankly is near impossible for us to pay for?

You decisions are NOT my responsibility period. You choose to smoke, why should I pay for your cancer treatment? Because we live in a "society"? Sorry, come up some with something a little more persuasive then that.

You want to ask me for help with medical bills, ok. You want to FORCE me to pay for your medical bills through government coercion? That is something completely different.

Like I said, there's a lot of middle ground between providing coverage to those that don't have any and "an immense takeover." I know that answer doesn't play in the black/white, "Is my side winning?" bullshit game that politics has devolved into in this country.

We can't really run the British NHS-style system here. There are too many companies and jobs tied up in the current insurance and health industry to scrap it and completely start over. From what I've seen, it'll be an insurance plan for those that don't have any coverage here.

Anyway, you're already paying. Through more expensive care and public support of those without. Through the loss of national productivity due to preventable illnesses. Through people put in the poor house and no longer paying taxes to maintain the roads you drive on.

[Rhino]

Cue "Let em die" common sense

Can I be part of the "steel-toed Jack Boot Thug club" now?

Speaking of government coercion....

GIVE act passes Senate

How else is the Chosen One going to get his army?

Obama's Civilian National Security Force: "just as powerful, just as well-funded as our military"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdF5TQIv1fU&feature=PlayList&p=91276792B3D 84851&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=104


“We’re not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army.”

http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2009/03...-have-an-army/

[MikeG]

The IRS just needs to conduct a major audit on everyone up on Capitol Hill, that will solve our deficit

[Wintermute]

Look out Rhino, Obama's coming to put you in a Homoislamofascisthippie Reeducation
Camp because...well fuck, just because! No reason needed I guess. Man, even when I was in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome, I never theorized that Bush would create an international network of torture rooms and secret prisons.

Oh wait.


Mike, I'd be all for that. Throw in corporations operating out of tax havens and you got a deal.

[Rhino]

Look out Rhino, Obama's coming to put you in a Homoislamofascisthippie Reeducation
Camp because...well fuck, just because! No reason needed I guess. Man, even when I was in the grip of Bush Derangement Syndrome, I never theorized that Bush would create an international network of torture rooms and secret prisons.

Oh wait.

Yeah, I'm shaking in my Jack boots.

After all, we have the Posse Comitatus Act right? Oh, that only applies to the miltary and not the "National Security Force"? Well thats just neat. And you say the Kenyan was a constitutional lawyer and would know that? Double neat! Good the the .gov is looking out for our best interests, right? Guess Animal Farm wasn't on your list of required reading?

Your "society" comment was cute though. Our "society" is going to make Idiocracy look like a documentary in the near future. Hey, maybe we can put toilet water on the economy!

GO AWAY! BATIN!

[The Black Knight]

Speaking of government coercion....
GIVE act passes Senate

Yeah, here's the part of the bill I just loved:

‘SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

(a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:

(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

What basically means, any person/student accepting student loans is not allowed to practice religion?? Hmm, telling people they can't participate or go to church. Wow, what happened to the 1st Amendment?? I knew Obama didn't care for the Second Amendment, but to be perfectly honest this one didn't surprise me either.

Oh well, this is the "Change" everyone voted for. I hope they are enjoying it by the bucket loads.

Can I be part of the "steel-toed Jack Boot Thug club" now?

How else is the Chosen One going to get his army?

Obama's Civilian National Security Force: "just as powerful, just as well-funded as our military"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdF5TQIv1fU&feature=PlayList&p=91276792B3D 84851&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=104


“We’re not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army.”

http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2009/03...-have-an-army/

You know what I found strangely odd about that 20 second video of Obama talking about having a "Civilian Army" in order to counter the Military?? Seems he's starting to show very definable characteristics of another super power from the ancient world. The Emperor of Rome(Caeser) had his own "Civilian Army"(Praetorians). And the Emperor(s) were usually very adamant about not allowing Generals to enter Rome at the head of their own commanding armies. Hmmmm, are we starting to see a dichotomy already of our leaders in Government vs. our Military leaders?? Time will tell...