Serious Problem - Sheared off and Cross Threaded Spark Plug

[DavidofColorado]

Did you get it started? Does it run at all? Since you changed the head I have to ask if you set that valve lash or at least checked it?

[XJ600s]

Did you get it started? Does it run at all? Since you changed the head I have to ask if you set that valve lash or at least checked it?

Nope, not started yet. I just verified I have the spark plug wires in the correct places and the igniter units incoming wires in the correct mounting points. The starter will crank the engine over repeatedly, but the engine does want to start.

Valve lash? Do you mean doing a valve adjustment and changing shims if necessary? If so, I used my same shims and cams from originally. Even if the shims were off, it should still start but hvae a very loud ticking noise.

edited to add: I just installed brand new spark plugs which I properly gapped as well according to the owners manual. I have also tried spraying starter fluid into the air intake and it still doesn't do anything.

[DavidofColorado]

Did you check the timing? If the timing chain and crank are all lined up properly then timing should be the next thing to check. I don't know if you have points on there but maybe there is a way that the timing is adjustable and needs attention.

[asp_125]

So there's enough juice to crank, fuel (starter fluid), and new plugs. But have you verified the new plugs are sparking?

[edit]yes, timing should be verified[/ed]

[XJ600s]

I don't have the tools to check the timing, but not having messed with the timing chain when taking it apart, it shouldn't be off at all.

There is plenty of juice (connected it to my truck for a while to keep the battery power up), plenty of fuel in tank and fuel reaching the carbs, starter fluid in air intake and new plugs properly gapped and checked to ensure spark. Still nothing.

I guess in all reality it could be the timing, as everything else seems to be in order, but I dont have the tools to do that myself.

Just checked the manul under "Ignition Timing" it says "Electronic, Not Adjustable".

[asp_125]

*sigh*..

Haven't looked at old engines in years. While valve timing (timing chain) can be spot on, what about ignition timing (the points)? Any chance that is out of spec?

[XJ600s]

*sigh*..

Haven't looked at old engines in years. While valve timing (timing chain) can be spot on, what about ignition timing (the points)? Any chance that is out of spec?

well the "ignition timing" is "electronic, not adjustable". As far as "points", no idea.

Its possible in my cranking the crankshaft by hand, it somehow got out of proper alignment with the timing, but I have no clue how that system works at all and neither of the two manuals i have (factory and haynes) are helping me at all in regards to that.

[DavidofColorado]

Does a spark go thru the plug when you crank it?

[XJ600s]

That's how I checked the plugs were working, I had one out of the engine, attached to the coil and touching the tip to the frame to ground it and I could clearly see a blue spark across the terminal gap of each of the 4 brand new plugs.

[Filo]

You don't have points on that bike. That is what the electronic timing is for. You cannot advance/retard the timing on that bike without a computer. I have put an engine together and had the cam 180 degrees out of whack. So when the spark went, the exhaust valves were active and when it was supposed to be going on the power stroke it was pulling in gas. That may be your problem, but usually you get some backfiring from that. I would double check your cam chain and make sure it is installed correctly. That should include opening the view port on the side of the engine and making sure the cams are aligned correctly when you are on the TDC (or TBC - whatever that bike has). I would also check that you have the correct spark plug wire on the correct cylinder, since I have made that mistake too. I am assuming you have verified you have gas going to the cylinders?

Hand cranking the crankshaft will not mess up the timing. You are simply being like a starter motor. My most likely guess is you have something exactly backwards so that you are getting spark when there is no gas there.

[DavidofColorado]

Yeah, I think Filo is right. If you don't have a timing problem since its computer controlled then the crank and the timing of the valves could be off. I'm not sure what kind of bike you have so I don't even know how many cylinders it has but if its more than one and its computer controlled. Then when the crank cover is off and its turned manually to TDC then the marks of the valve cam should be lined up and no valves should be open either. Then it should start if its getting gas.

Did you crank it over with your thumb over the spark plug hole? It should push your thumb off no matter how hard you push. That means it has compression and is the first place to start when you can't get it started.

[XJ600s]

Filo, thanks for the comprehensive reply. No backfiring at all, the engine doesn't fire for even a split second (and I listen closely). The cam chain has been triple checked (twice yesterday) and is correctly installed, along with the camshafts (holes lined up with the mounts). There is the proper slack in the cam chain between the camshafts and that has been verified with pics of a friend who just swapped out their camshafts.

Last time I checked, when the crankshaft was at the TDC mark, the leftmost cylinder was up (looking through the spark plug hole I could see the pointed part of the tear-drop shape lobe pointing more upwards like it should).

I just verified the spark plug wires going to the correct cylinder, luckily for me the wires have the cylinder number on them with a sticker and I also verified in older pictures of my bike where the numbers went (1-2-3-4 from far left to far right). I have drained the carb float bowls, primed the petcock tried starting it and then try to drain the bowls again, so fuel is in the bowls and going to the engine.

Thats what I thought with the hand cranking, but I wanted to check to be sure. It is completely beyond me at this point, and even if it were the timing, I can't check it without a computer like you said (proper tools).

edited:

DavidofColorado, I can feel air being pushed out of the spark plug hole forcefully when the spark plugs are removed. I can also smell a little bit of gas on the air that comes out.

I'm done working for the day, so I'm heading back out to Lyons away from the bike. It doesn't seem like I will be able to fix it at this point without checking to ensure the timing is correct. But at the same time, I don't want to take it to a shop because I don't want to sink more money into it if they can't get it started.

[DavidofColorado]

Thats what I thought with the hand cranking, but I wanted to check to be sure. It is completely beyond me at this point, and even if it were the timing, I can't check it without a computer like you said (proper tools).

Do you have a timing light? Or can borrow one?

Is that left most cylinder that you said was pointing up. Is that your number 1 cylinder?

[XJ600s]

Yes, the left most cylinder is cylinder 1 and is supposed to be up when at TDC (according to the manual and when I had the cylinder off and engine at TDC, the outer 2 most cylinders, 1 and 4, were up and the inner 2 cylinders, 2 and 3 were down).

Not sure of anyone that has a timing light but maybe someone on here knows of where I can borrow one another day.

[Filo]

Something DOC said reminded me of one more thing. I have seen this only once, on a Yamaha FZR, so it is really unlikely to be the problem. The timing is triggered off of a Hall effect sensor on the crank. It is on the left hand side in that bike, if I remember correctly. There is a wire that comes out of the side cover and goes to the harness. First, you should check that wire is hooked up correctly and second (which is the really unlikely part) you should check that the Hall sensor is still working. There is probably a troubleshooting step for that in your owners manual, so you don't have to take the cover off. If there isn't a troubleshooting step, you might want to consider taking off the cover and making sure the sensor is still there. Since it is VERY unlikely to be the problem, I would reserve that for the very last thing you do before you put a rag in the gas tank and light it.

[Midget Hellion]

Wish I would have seen your post earlier...I went to a guy to get a sheared fairing bolt out. He was able to spot weld onto it, and back it out. It was a tight spot too.

He did great work and didn't even charge me for it...but then again I was having other work done at the same time.

[DavidofColorado]

Yes, the left most cylinder is cylinder 1 and is supposed to be up when at TDC (according to the manual and when I had the cylinder off and engine at TDC, the outer 2 most cylinders, 1 and 4, were up and the inner 2 cylinders, 2 and 3 were down).

Not sure of anyone that has a timing light but maybe someone on here knows of where I can borrow one another day.

Well if you can get a timing light and hook it up. It should blink on the timing marks of the crank when the TDC mark is at the right spot. If it doesn't show that mark lined up them your crank is off. But you said that it was running slowly so I don't what that means. The chain tensioner could be binding up.

I will let some others speak out here. Maybe they know something I don't here.

You did spray starting fluid into the carbs and then turn it over and you didn't get a sign that it wanted to start at all?

[DavidofColorado]

Wish I would have seen your post earlier...I went to a guy to get a sheared fairing bolt out. He was able to spot weld onto it, and back it out. It was a tight spot too.

He did great work and didn't even charge me for it...but then again I was having other work done at the same time.

I didn't see the post in time either. I was going to suggest cutting a notch in the plug and tapping it with a regular screw driver until it starts unturning. Then run a thread chaser back down it. Or tap a new thread hole but then you have to clean out all the filings out of the head and you have to pretty much take the head off to do that.

Can you post some pictures or video of what your bikes doing. I can't get a mental picture of what you have done?

[Jim_Vess]

Before you do much else, you should really do a compression check. If the compression is too low, the bike won't start.

A timing light won't do you any good until get the bike running.

[XJ600s]

First off, I tried using an easy out screw extractor to get the bottom of the spark plug out, but with nearly all my body weight on it with torque, the extractor bit was starting to twist, where hte bottom wasn't budging a bit and the top that I was torquing on was twisting. I was afraid I was going to break the bit, so I stopped. Thats when I decided to just replace the head.

"But you said that it was running slowly so I don't what that means."

When did I say it was running slowly? It acts like a normal bike does right now, except that it doesn't start. The starting motor turns the crankshaft but nothing. And seems to me that with the timing light it will be hard to see if the light goes on at the same time the TDC mark lines up as the crankshaft spins rather fast, but not abnormally fast.

"You did spray starting fluid into the carbs and then turn it over and you didn't get a sign that it wanted to start at all?"

Thats correct, nothing at all, no backfiring, no slight firing but stopping. Even adjusting through the idle screw from nearly all the way out to all the way in it wouldn't start (normally was about 2/3 the way in), and it takes about 30 complete rotations to be fully in, and 1 complete rotation change the idle about 1k rpms ( made sure I only rotated it 1 turn each time between starting it).

Another reason I decided to replace the head was just because the inner part of the spark plug fell into the cylinder as far as I could tell. So I wanted to get any debris out of the cylinder that I could.

Can't post video (no vidcam) but can say exactly what I have done up until now:
-Remove tank, carbs, air intake.
-Remove outside cam chain tensioner
-Remove head cover, camshafts, hold camchain (after marking location on sprockets)
-Remove cam chain guide on inside
-Remove cylinder head
-Replace cylinder head with new gasket, bolts, washers and dowels
-Replace cam shafts, cam chain (lining up holes and marks on chain/sprockets)
-Replace head cover with new gasket
-Replace carbs, air intake and fuel tank
-Purchase new spark plugs, gap to .3mm exactly (manual = .28-.33)
-Hook spark plugs up one at a time to the plug wires, touch tip to frame and start engine (blue spark appeared on all)
-Install all 4 spark plugs, ensuring correct wires on each plug
-Try to start...nada
-Spray 2 seconds of Prestone Starting Fluid into air intake
-Try to start...nothing
-Pull plugs, rotate crankshaft with starter and it circles 360* multiple times
-Reinstall plugs (tips completely dry when pulled, no gas on them)
-Try to start...nothing still

This is where I need to check the timing. Can someone tell me what exactly a timing light is/does? Could I just hook up a small 2-3W lightbulb to a lead and connect that somewhere? Would it have the same effect?

Guess I need to borrow a compression gauge checker and a timing light. Anyone have either they'd be willing to let me borrow for a few days until I get it figured out?

At this point I'm just fed up and done with it. It should start but it won't. I know its something stupidly simple, yet I've quadruppally checked nearly every electrical connector I removed on multiple different days (so exhaustion wasn't playing into effect and ruining my judgement).

What it does now, is spark, suck in air, feed fuel, but the start button will not actually create ignition.

[TFOGGuys]

Before you do much else, you should really do a compression check. If the compression is too low, the bike won't start.

A timing light won't do you any good until get the bike running.

It won't do any good afterwards either, as the ignition timing is not adjustable.

Double check your cam timing, making sure the front chain run is tight and the tensioner is installed. Seca IIs have a pervasive issue with the camchain tensioner spring not being stiff enough to fully tighten the chain, but that should not prevent the bike from starting. If you turned the engine over with the starter while the cams were incorrectly timed, there is a significant possibility that the valves got bent, and the engine will not make sufficient compression to start. You need a minimum of around 90 psi cranking compression with the throttles open in order to achieve ignition.

If you have spark, the ignition pickup is ok, so don't worry about that. If there's fuel in the fuel bowls of the carbs (easily verified by opening the bowl drain screw momentarily, don't worry about that. Your previous comments about difficulty turning the engine over by hand make me suspect that you may have damaged the valves with the starter. The good news is that most likely, wee can salvage the valves out of your oold head, so other than labor, the expense to fix it at this point would be minimal.

[Jim_Vess]

The bike needs to be running at idle to check the ignition timing with a timing light.

The timing light is connected to the #1 cylinder spark plug wire. The light is aimed at the timing mark inside the ignition cover (there is a plug that you remove to see the marks). The timing light lights up each time the #1 plug fires, acting as a strobelight. The strobe effect allows you to see the timing marks as the engine rotates. If the marks line up, then the timing is correct - the #1 plug is firing when it is supposed to.

I've got a timing light and compression tester you can borrow.

[DavidofColorado]

A timing light picks up spark going thru your sparkplug wire and it flashes the timing light at that moment. You point the light at the timing marks on the crank shaft and it shows for a split second your timing. But since yours is computer controled there is no adjusting it. But it should still have the markings on the crank, right? And if they were working you would see the markings lined up right when it sparked. That would tell you at least that the cam is lined up with the crank or if it was 180 degrees off.

A compression tester tells you how much pressure is being made by the pistons when its on the power stroke and tfog is right that you need 90 psi for it to work. Although I usually think something is wrong at 120 psi. But you test all the cylinders without the plugs at wide open throttle and they should read say~ 150 psi or bewith in 10 psi of each other. Then it should fire right up. I think that autozone lends testers for free and they should have the attachments for most spark plugs. If you test the compression and something is wrong there you will have to break it back down and check what it wrong. If you take head off and find that a valve is bent you will have to change the valves out with the old ones. Now here is where you want to see if Jim has a good price because you are going to have to lap the valves so they seat properly and don't leak. And it takes a special tool to compress the valve springs so Jim might be able to hook you up and save some sanity for now.

[XJ600s]

Thanks Jim (TFOG Jim), that sounds like a possibility. Any chance you could PM me a possible estimate on repairs if the are in fact bent? (hourly rate and approximate hours you think it'd take to get done)

I have a friend that I believe has a compression checker, but I won't see him until friday night. I may call him just to make sure he has one and see if I can borrow it over the weekend. I thought Checker Auto rented compression checkers, but I just called and they only sell them for $37 (which I probably will only use right now.

Hopefully the valves aren't bent and it won't require pulling the cylinder head back off again. But it does make sense to me now why this is the culprit. Because it is hard to turn the crankshaft by hand past a certain point, and if the valves were bent, they wouldn't be seating properly and would then allow the explosive gases to vent before ignition.

Jim_Vess: When could I pick up the compression gauge from you? I will be in Boulder tomorrow at 7am (currently in Lyons) and will probably head back to Lyons around 5pm at the latest (unless I could meet you soon after that, I just would need to get back to Lyons before dark). PM me if you'd like