Super street bike class next year in the MRA

[asp_125]

Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?

[BigE]

As someone who went through the MRA school and had a race bike (an old one but a race bike) and then ended not being able to afford to actually go to races um, as others have said the price tag is steep for what you get.
If I wanted to this class, for what it would cost to prep my bike ...well, it'd be cheaper to buy an old track bike. Cathy, this could also be the case for you. This is because case covers and bellypans for naked or half-faired bikes are hard to come by and cost a decent chunk of change (iirc, the belly pan for my Triumph is $300-400 plus it need modified to close it in, case covers are non-existent). Add in getting a universal steering damper then making it fit, etc. it just costs too much.
IMHO, if the MRA wants a "Taste of racing" class, let the prep requirements match a good track day school, give a basic "school" included in the race cost, which should be one of the cheaper classes, and have a one-day membership.
Dividing skill level would be of greater concern than bike displacement or type of bike because you'd get some fast guys freaking out the "first-timer/ never-evers".

[dirkterrell]

Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?

Well, the idea is that it wouldn't be undersubscribed and might draw people into racing for real. I'm still on the fence about it. The goal is to keep the cost down, but case guards would be a must IMO. Inexperienced and full of adrenaline, people are going to to down. Oil on the track ruins it for everyone. Fortunately in the case that Randall mentioned at the Pridmore school, it wasn't too bad requiring only a small adjustment to the line.

My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

[mtnairlover]

Cathy, this could also be the case for you. This is because case covers and bellypans for naked or half-faired bikes are hard to come by and cost a decent chunk of change (iirc, the belly pan for my Triumph is $300-400 plus it need modified to close it in, case covers are non-existent). Add in getting a universal steering damper then making it fit, etc. it just costs too much.

IMHO, if the MRA wants a "Taste of racing" class, let the prep requirements match a good track day school, give a basic "school" included in the race cost, which should be one of the cheaper classes, and have a one-day membership.

Dividing skill level would be of greater concern than bike displacement or type of bike because you'd get some fast guys freaking out the "first-timer/ never-evers".

This is the other side I needed to hear. I can get a "wild hair", but also need to hear the negatives, before making a decision.

My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

This is what I was talking about, as well. You get a certain "feel" at the various levels...riding at IMI is not like a track day, and a track day is not like a simulated race...and a simulated race...and so on.

I think if I investigated further into what it would cost...I might nix the idea altogether. Something like this does take a lot of weighing of options for sure.

[Sully]

My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you. Once the bike is set up, it's not too bad, but it ain't cheap. Once you experience a race, though, you'll see that it is at a completely different level from a track day in terms of intensity and thrill, hence Bueller's heroin reference.

Dirk

$600 is an understatement for start up !

[mtnairlover]

What is the $600 for? Sean had a break-down of costs. If you are talking about adding a track-ready race bike, then yes the cost goes up, but this is for a street bike class.

So what does the "street bike class" include? Tires? Tire warmers? And all the same stuff as if you were racing?

More info please...

[Tipys]

The thing that is hard for me, is that upfront costs. I even have a race prepped bike, but to spend:
AMA membership $40
MRA Membership $150
MRA School $300
One Endurance Race $50-100
= $550-600

It's kind of steep. And that's not including any additions to a bike (case covers, steering damper if you don't have them). And I don't even know about the insurance that one would need. How much would that run? While I think the MRA does need a boost, and I am happy to help if I can, getting someone to drop $600 for 30 min of fun (with no scoring or recognition) doesn't really seem worth it to me.

I would disagree Sean you already have a race bike. Now someone who is trying to get into racing but dont know if they will like it or not. Buying or preping a full on race bike is going to cost alot more then some case covers, dampner, Etc.

Also I wouldn't count the AMA member ship as a cost cause that is something you should have already. Plus it will save you money. It has saved me about $200 dollars this year already. 10 percent off at most motorcycle shops.


Pros
Upgrades for your street bike
Learning how to ride better
Cheaper then pre or buying a full race bike
And getting a shot at racing

Cons
Ya it is gonna cost some but not as much if it wasnt there.
Risk of dropping street bike on the track. (same risk on a track day)




Also I am sure you would be able to borrow leathers and gear just like a track day to see if you will like it.

[Sully]

I think what Sean means is that if you spend $ for case covers, steering damper, etc. and wreck your street bike, it's going to cost a lot more than you initially thought, so essentially, it may NOT be cheaper in the long run. <shrug>

[dirkterrell]

What is the $600 for? Sean had a break-down of costs. If you are talking about adding a track-ready race bike, then yes the cost goes up, but this is for a street bike class.

So what does the "street bike class" include? Tires? Tire warmers? And all the same stuff as if you were racing?

More info please...

I was referring to Sean's $600 figure and comment. I think case guards would be a necessity and minimal wiring, like the oil drain plug. I would be more than happy to help people do that.

Now, if you're one of these people who spends money on useless bling for your bike, like aftermarket pipes, I don't want to hear any whining about how expensive racing is.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Buying or preping a full on race bike is going to cost alot more then some case covers, dampner, Etc.

I bought race plastics and case guards for the Gixxer and went racing last year. Stock chain, stock brakes, stock exhaust, stock levers, stock pegs, stock shock, etc. You don't have to spend a bunch of money on the bike. Spend your money on learning how to really ride it. Mark Schellinger was at Jason Pridmore's class yesterday and he, a two-time MRA #1 plate holder, very experienced racer, and fast as hell, was learning some things yesterday. The bike is not the limitation for most of us, so why spend a bunch of money there?

Dirk

[Tipys]

I bought race plastics and case guards for the Gixxer and went racing last year. Stock chain, stock brakes, stock exhaust, stock levers, stock pegs, stock shock, etc. You don't have to spend a bunch of money on the bike. Spend your money on learning how to really ride it. Mark Schellinger was at Jason Pridmore's class yesterday and he, a two-time MRA #1 plate holder, very experienced racer, and fast as hell, was learning some things yesterday. The bike is not the limitation for most of us, so why spend a bunch of money there?

Dirk

Ya I am not counting upgrades in my mind just the min. But it would be nice to have the extra goodies though.

Depending on bike it could be anywhere from about 1k to 2.2k and thats if you install everything yourself. Case covers 300-500 , dampner 0-700 (some bikes have them stock), and Plastics 300-1k.

[asp_125]

Racing isn't cheap, but compare the investment in ski/snowboard equipment and season's passes, or a set of golf clubs and green fees; then it doesn't seem so bad.

[Sully]

No, it's not soo bad, but when you're shaggin' your tires out so much that you need new ones once a month (or even more often), it really starts to add up (and I don't even buy the top of the line tires). Just things to think about

[Bueller]

The thing people that have never raced don't understand is that racing is not for everyone, it is very hard to race. It is mentally anguishing.
I think too many people get into it for the cool factor.
No matter how you slice or dice it, bottom line is it is expensive.
It is also very addictive, the Adrenalin is the heroin. The addiction allows you to justify the expense.
There are highs and crashes as with any addiction, I am a recovering racer.

[Nick_Ninja]

The thing people that have never raced don't understand is that racing is not for everyone, it is very hard to race. It is mentally anguishing.
I think too many people get into it for the cool factor.
No matter how you slice or dice it, bottom line is it is expensive.
It is also very addictive, the Adrenalin is the heroin. The addiction allows you to justify the expense.
There are highs and crashes as with any addiction, I am a recovering racer.

Step one (1) of twelve (12)

Hi! My name is Dave and I'm ...........

[Snowman]

The simple problem is this. The MRA does not have enough racers showing up at their races in order to pay the bills. Whenever this happens, a business must do two things, cut overhead and bring in more customers. Since it appears, they have cut everything they can and still are unable to keep going with the racers they have they must drawn in more racers.

We seem to be getting what the racers in the MRA want the not yet racers to do to join their ranks. So how about we take this from the other side.

What do you guys/gals that are not racing (but want to) want of the MRA to get you going and stay in the game?

Things like…
Are tires too expensive? Well maybe they can spec them so everybody run the same.

Wiring your bike sounds like a pain? Maybe there should be a minimal list of things that have to be wired and a list of people/places and costs to get this done.

Are case covers necessary or can frame sliders and case guards solve work?

There is a compromise out there, we just need to find it.

[konichd]

Open up a Ninja 250 class, they are inexpensive (hell you could get one for what it would take to prep a bike you already had), make modifications limited. Its catching on everywhere else but here. This is your best option to go racing on the "cheap" without cutting corners on safety (dropping MRA requirements for tech to get this new class started). Tires last a lot longer and you could always sell the bike to upcoming racer's that are getting into the scene. "Life cycle" cost over the season would be less than on a typical 600 or 1000cc sportbike, you wouldn't use as many tires, etc. could effectively keep the cost down.

Maybe even drop entry fee's for the 250 class. I would definately race this class if it was available

[asp_125]

Open up a Ninja 250 class, they are inexpensive (hell you could get one for what it would take to prep a bike you already had), make modifications limited. Its catching on everywhere else but here. This is your best option to go racing on the "cheap" without cutting corners on safety (dropping MRA requirements for tech to get this new class started).

Maybe even drop entry fee's for the 250 class. I would definately race this class if it was available

+1 .. one of my friends races "sippy cup" back east and has loads of fun. Well maybe not so fun down the straight at Pueblo or La Junta, where you can time it with a sundial, but I probably think HPR won't be too bad.

[silkboxr]

Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...

[BigE]

I think a (semi) "stock" Ninja 250 class would be great. Or something like the 450 singles (converted MX bikes), although I think the folks promoting that as a cheap race bike haven't figured out the topend replacement cost and how often a 450 is going to need one being run wide open all the time.
SuMo bikes are relatively cheap, hold up well to crashing and are pretty much easily gotten.
I think the original idea of a streetbike/ run whatcha brung class is the best way to get some folks hooked enough to start dumping money into racing but you need it to cost like a couple hundred bucks or less for the "experience", just my .02.

[BigE]

Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...

+1, exactly what I was thinking.

[Sean]

In reference to my post, I'm not complaining about the fees and I'm not saying they are unrealistic; but for one event, they are high. Personally, I'm hoping to try and race next year (someone's gotta be last), and the upfront costs are more managable if you are putting in a whole season, but for one race? Add safety wire and you might be able to pull off a few races.

And Trevor, I was only refering to basic upfront costs. Everybody's situation is different. I'm just saying that getting street riders may be a good idea, but I don't feel this is accesible for a lot of people under the current economic situation.

[Boy Scout]

Great thread! It's refreshing to see a few people opening their minds to new ideas.

I've never had any serious interest in racing -- my attendance at track days has always just been for fun -- but track days are addicting and at this point, I would entertain something like this.

There are several issues that have always prevented me from considering racing. First and foremost is the cost (e.g., a race bike, prep, support equipment, tires, etc). Second is the time -- I simply don't have the time to make every race of the season, which automatically removes any possibility of seasonal achievements (e.g. trophies, etc.). Third, which is actually a side-effect of #1 and #2, is a lack of motivation as a result of the circumstances (i.e. I would be dumping a bunch of cash and running a few races with no chance of winning the big prize).

With regard to the idea at hand, my thoughts are that it should be a real race, but that each race would stand on its own (i.e. not a season-long series). A simulated race sounds fake to me, and takes away from the experience. Why would you want to pay to take the same class and get the same license as the regular racers only to participate in a fake race. These riders would still be "racers", just not racing at the same level as the full-timers. The benefits of standalone races are that because each race stands on its own, it's possible for someone that can only make a race or two during the season to actually achieve something meaningful within the time and funding limitations they have to work with.

As has been mentioned, there are several possible outcomes, however I actually see three: 1) The rider hates it and never does it again, 2) The rider enjoys it and continues to participate in this class as time and funds allow, and 3) The rider loves it and morphs into a full-time racer. All three benefit the MRA to varying degrees. Worst case the MRA gets a school fee, a license fee, and one entry fee. Best case it end up with another full-time racer.

I have no issues with the requirements as listed. I don't see the AMA membership at $39/year (I'm already a member), a $50-$100, or even the normal $200 one-time race school, and a $100 (annual?) MRA license as being huge obstacles. The only bike requirements beyond what is required at Chicane Track Days is the engine case guards, steering damper (some newer bikes come with these) and some safety wiring -- all initial setup things. Gear requirements are fairly standard as well.

I agree on the no trophies, points, contingency, and championships NOT being part of it, however some nicely printed certificates would be a nice touch, would add something meaningful to the experience, and wouldn't cost the MRA any significant money. To me, something like this would be a a step above a track day. Track days are not races. This would be a real race with real competition.

I have no statistics supporting either viewpoint, but my gut feel tells me that street bikes don't cause any more "damage" to the track than other track users (e.g., race bikes, cars, etc.). In reality, I think this is more of an ego issue among some racers trying to separate and elevate themselves as being better than everyone else, being overly protective of "their" track, etc. I would bet that the cars do more damage to the track than any street bike ever could -- one reportedly dumped 5 quarts of oil on the track a week ago. I understand many of the racers have an investment, but street riders also have an investment through donations, track day participation, etc. As long as reasonable precautions are taken (i.e. participants are properly educated on the requirements, no glycol is allowed, meaningful Tech Inspections are performed, etc.), I don't see this as being the huge issue that it is made out to be.

I agree with the novality statement above. The reason I say that is because if I have gone to the trouble to go to the race class, get AMA and MRA memberships paid up, bought case covers, maybe some saftey wiring then why would I not race?

Money and time.

I could see this being a one time shot for potential racers and if I did half way decent I would jump right to real the thing (which maybe is the goal here).

For people that have the money and the time, that may very well be the case. I would think that getting people involved in the sport would be a primary goal of offering something like, but even if they stayed at the street level, or even tried it only one time, the MRA still benefits from it.

I think this class will be a good way for street riders to trash there nice OEM fairings but to each their own.

If you're going to trash them, you may as well have fun doing it. Sure people are going to push harder, but at least they are doing it in a cleaner, safer environment than on the street. Again, no statistics, but how many streetbikes get trashed on the street vs. on the track. I could be wrong, but I would also suspect that with it being their only bike, street riders might tend to hold back a little bit since a crash is going to curtail their street riding as well.

From my point of view, if I wanted the race experience I would just make the commitment and race; none of this pretend racing stuff. If I go to the trouble of getting a license, prepping the bike, the support vehicle and trailer etc. it's not a stretch to actually race. If I just wanted track time, Chicane has a great program for that already.

If you have the funds and the time, by all means go full-tilt. Many don't have that luxury. This being a real race makes it more than just track time. There is competition and undoubtedly a bit more adrenaline involved.

You go through the PITA process of taping up lights, etc each weekend and pretty soon you realize the value of having a race bike that you don't have to convert back and forth. So while the idea is good, in the long run I see participants either trying it once and dropping out, or moving up to the real MRA classes. So long term survival of such a class is doubtful.

Maybe. I've done enough track days to know that converting is a PITA, however it takes about 20 minutes each way and I get more use out of something I already own. If the MRA gives it a fair shot (i.e. at least a season) and it doesn't work, nothing says that it has to continue, but why not try it, especially since it has been successful with other clubs.

If you actually want street riders to race, the requirments would need to be similar to a trackday with maybe a one day license fee for the MRA. Then get a rider rep to hit the very basics so that everyone is on the same page.

I agree. The one-day license is an interesting idea. Depending on the pricing, it may be cheaper to pay the $100 fee, but if someone is looking at it as a one-time deal it would be great.

The thing that is hard for me, is that upfront costs. I even have a race prepped bike, but to spend:
AMA membership $40
MRA Membership $150
MRA School $300
One Endurance Race $50-100
= $550-600

It's kind of steep. And that's not including any additions to a bike (case covers, steering damper if you don't have them). And I don't even know about the insurance that one would need. How much would that run? While I think the MRA does need a boost, and I am happy to help if I can, getting someone to drop $600 for 30 min of fun (with no scoring or recognition) doesn't really seem worth it to me.

I'm with ya on the $40, but I thought the license was around $100 and the original post mentioned the class costing $50-$100. I also saw no mention of an endurance race or entry fee cost. Where did you get those numbers?

In any case, yes it costs money. The costs of getting involved in track days wasn't cheap either. For many it required purchasing gear that they didn't already have. That also had the benefit of getting them better gear for their street riding, but the bottom line is, they didn't own it before they started riding the track, so it was an upfront investment that they were willing to make. It still seems small to me compared to the amount required for full-on racing, and much of it is one-time costs. Once you have that out of the way, $50-$100 to enter a race is cheaper than a track day.

Given the current MRA participation problems, why create yet another undersubscribed class?

Why not? What are they going to lose by trying it? It seems to me that the potential benefits from trying something different (that has worked for other clubs) far outweigh the potential consequences of not giving it a shot.

My feeling is that if $600 seems like a lot of startup money to spend, then racing probably isn't for you.

For full-time racing I would agree, but this wouldn't necessarily be full-time racing? What if someone has limited time and can't participate full-time, or they have some play money, but not enough to do a full-season and be competitive at it. There is a huge gap between doing a few track days or races at this level, and what the club racers spend on a a season of racing. I guess I view it more as an entry level deal: Street Class -> Regular Classes -> AMA -> WSBK/MotoGP -- it's just another level at a lower price point to involve more people in the sport, some of which will undoubtedly move up the ladder. With this in mind, it needs to be fairly simple, straight forward, and feasible or you'll simply drive people away.

Are tires too expensive? Well maybe they can spec them so everybody run the same.

-1
I'm not following you here. I'm already buying street tires for my street bike, which is what I would be racing, right? Why would I want to buy specific tires that I'm not familiar with and swap them back and forth all the time. Unless I have two sets of wheels (an additional cost), I'm now having to pay lots of mounting fees. What am I missing?

Wiring your bike sounds like a pain? Maybe there should be a minimal list of things that have to be wired and a list of people/places and costs to get this done.

+1

The simple problem is this. The MRA does not have enough racers showing up at their races in order to pay the bills. Whenever this happens, a business must do two things, cut overhead and bring in more customers. Since it appears, they have cut everything they can and still are unable to keep going with the racers they have they must drawn in more racers.

We seem to be getting what the racers in the MRA want the not yet racers to do to join their ranks. So how about we take this from the other side.

What do you guys/gals that are not racing (but want to) want of the MRA to get you going and stay in the game?

There is a compromise out there, we just need to find it.

+1

Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...

+1
Sounds like an excellent resource for the MRA to utilize. Find out what worked and what didn't. Local circumstances may require some modifications, but at least you have a starting point.

A big THANKS to Jeff (MRA 927) for getting this discussion started.

[hcr25]

How is the MOM series in Utah doing?

I know they "MOM" have called several MRA members that have raced their series in the past to see why they have not been racing there lately. They were told even 3 or 4 more racers would be a big help because of the small grids there recently.

Why does the MRA have to rebuild the wheel? Look at what the folks up in Utah did to attract new racers into a streetbike class at their track when it 1st opened (Miller Motorsports)!

They helped the new riders by giving them a free race school as long as the pre registered for I think it was three races, and of course they kept points why else would you race if there wasn't a chance of winning something?

Plus the entry fees where very cheap and all the bikes where basically stock, no slicks, no aftermarket suspension and no engine work. Just tape up your light take off the mirrors and go. The MRA Champ Shane Turnpin was a key player in getting the Street Bike class.

The MRA better look at attracting the average guy instead of the NASA Engineer to the club if they want to survive. Just my opinion...