What is happening in this country.

[Tipys]

Just remember you could be put in the same situation.

http://www.innovations-report.com/ht...ort-79302.html

http://www.emaxhealth.com/124/19349.html

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp...v=menu50_11_12

You can find even more information with a Google search. This is happening all over the country.

Ask your self this. Will you still be against "ObamaCare"? When you lose a love one? Due to the the healthcare industry being a "*business"?



*Business-In it to make money, not help people.

[TFOGGuys]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.

[Shea]

Yes Tipys I will be against any form of government control over my health care. Your premise that government is better, more efficient and more responsive to the health care needs of people doesn't hold water.

People are responsible for their own lives and cannot demand that other people pay for it. Many of you think that "harsh", "mean" or "heartless" but have yet to come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. Yet you fall for the propaganda that ObamaCare will be cheaper and provide better healthcare then the private sector (but fail to point to one program the government has ever done that).

Is it unfortunate that people fall through the cracks? Yes. Does our system need fixing? Absolutely. But I will fight tooth and nail to keep the "fixing" out of the hands of politicians who's sole motivation is control over citizens lives.

You care so much about others healthcare Tipys, et al, please give to half your paychecks to charity and quit claiming the power to make every else conform to your claimed higher morality.

[Tipys]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.

Its not just the medication. They do make generics. The generic I was taking was only about $300 dollars a month. I am one of the lucky ones that isn't on a ton of medication. My current one costs $900 a month or so.

But it isn't just the medication itself. I go to the hospital for check ups 4 times a year. I also have to have about a $50k surgery every other year.
I am 11 years out so I don't have to go ever offen.

Most are on alot of medications. I believe the average is about 9.

But right out of the hospital. You have to go 2 times and week and slowly make it less and less you have to go. That $50k surgery once or twice a year depending.

[= Buckeye Jess =]

As Shea said...the system is in dire need of repair...but government care isn't the answer in my book.
I know it is a simplistic view...but we already have two separate government health care plans and look at the condition they are both in. Why in the world would you want to introduce a third program when your first two are bombing? Granted, medicare and medicaid both have their own demons that don't necessarily cross over for a good comparison, but I think we need to look long and hard at fixing the two problems we already have before we go an introduce a third. (A third of which I don't think should even be an option personally...)

[Tipys]

Yes Tipys I will be against any form of government control over my health care. Your premise that government is better, more efficient and more responsive to the health care needs of people doesn't hold water.

People are responsible for their own lives and cannot demand that other people pay for it. Many of you think that "harsh", "mean" or "heartless" but have yet to come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. Yet you fall for the propaganda that ObamaCare will be cheaper and provide better healthcare then the private sector (but fail to point to one program the government has ever done that).

Is it unfortunate that people fall through the cracks? Yes. Does our system need fixing? Absolutely. But I will fight tooth and nail to keep the "fixing" out of the hands of politicians who's sole motivation is control over citizens lives.

You care so much about others healthcare Tipys, et al, please give to half your paychecks to charity and quit claiming the power to make every else conform to your claimed higher morality.

Ask your self this. Will you still be against "ObamaCare"? When you lose a love one? Due to the the healthcare industry being a "*business"?

Answer this for yourself.

Also I would happly lost half my paycheck. Because I am one of the "People that fall throw the cracks".

Edit; Also it is alot more then you think. That fall throw the cracks.


So thank you for telling me to go die.

[Shea]

Answer this for yourself.

Also I would happly lost half my paycheck. Because I am one of the "People that fall throw the cracks".


So thank you for telling me to go die.

I understand that you have a dog in the fight but that is no where near what I said. If your most convincing argument for government controlled healthcare is an attempt to guilt me into supporting it, then you fail.

[Tipys]

I understand that you have a dog in the fight but that is no where near what I said. If your most convincing argument for government controlled healthcare is an attempt to guilt me into supporting it, then you fail.

No its not a guilt. Its more of just telling you what is happening yet again. This is the guilt. I hope you never lose a loved on because of the way current health insurance is.

People are so focused on me me me. Because your healthy and have a job
(That provides healthcar) doesn't mean it will be that way 10 minutes from now.

[Tipys]

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.

[dirkterrell]

Because your healthy and have a job

I think the first step in healthcare reform needs to be breaking the connection between one's job and insurance coverage (in the same way that employer-run pensions are going the way of the dodo).

Dirk

[MetaLord 9]

Which begs the question: Why the HELL do the necessary drugs cost over 1100 a month? Drug patents expire relatively quickly, allowing manufacturers of generics to manufacture them at greatly reduced cost, so why isn't this happening with the antirejection drugs?

The antiretrovirals that are used to combat HIV are a great example: When covered by patents, they cost over $100 a day, after the patents expired, they were made available to relief agencies in Africa for about $2.30 per daily dose.

Because, while it costs them $0.15 to make each extra pill, the first pill cost probably $1B in research, testing, and materials.

Don't take this as a defense of exorbitantly high medication fees, but when you spend $1B to create a wonder drug and only have have 2 or 3 years to recoup your investment so you can do it again to help those who are dying, you charge what it takes to get you there.

There are probably better ways to go about this, but I can't think of 'em unfortunately.

[Shea]

No its not a guilt. Its more of just telling you what is happening yet again. This is the guilt. I hope you never lose a loved on because of the way current health insurance is.

People are so focused on me me me. Because your healthy and have a job
(That provides healthcar) doesn't mean it will be that way 10 minutes from now.

So I'm selfish and you're not...ok.

You're sick and have to take expensive medicines to ostensibly stay alive. You are accomplishing this through whatever financial means you have available, since you are in fact, still alive. But you don't want to do this and feel that someone else should pay for it. So who is being selfish sir? This is 100% about you, you, you.

In 10min, I may be out of a job. In 10min I might get run over by a car. In 10min I may be hit by an asteroid on a group ride. You are correct. But in that 10 min, will my fundamental belief that I DON'T own other people and can spend their money as I see fit change? No. I am 100% responsible for my life, my actions, my health, my shelter and my decisions. If I need help from my fellow man I have to ASK for it, in person, to their face NOT vote some dbag politician into office to steal it for me.

[Tipys]

So I'm selfish and you're not...ok.

You're sick and have to take expensive medicines to ostensibly stay alive. You are accomplishing this through whatever financial means you have available, since you are in fact, still alive. But you don't want to do this and feel that someone else should pay for it. So who is being selfish sir? This is 100% about you, you, you.

I didn't choose to get sick. So I guess that was selfish. If I could afford my medications. I would still be trying to get this to go through because I am not the only one in this situation. There are people out there dieing because of this. Not the healthy people that have jobs that provide health insurance.

And no its not about me, me, me. Its about everybody we need this.

To Quote MLK "A man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live."

So basically if I had to die to see this go through I would. Because I know I would be saving countless lifes.

[Pharmgirl]

Because, while it costs them $0.15 to make each extra pill, the first pill cost probably $1B in research, testing, and materials.

Don't take this as a defense of exorbitantly high medication fees, but when you spend $1B to create a wonder drug and only have have 2 or 3 years to recoup your investment so you can do it again to help those who are dying, you charge what it takes to get you there.

There are probably better ways to go about this, but I can't think of 'em unfortunately.

It costs an average of $500 million to bring one drug to market. You then have 7 years of patent exclusivity (ususally) to recoup your investment. Most drug companies are able to do it and to cover the ones that didn't make it to market. They remain profitable year after year.

The US does finance most of the new drug development in the world. As a pharmacist, my question to insurance companies is this (and I work for one) is this: you'll pay an MD $160+ for a 15-30 minute office visit and charge a $10 copay, but for necessary prescription medication that will keep you out of the hospital and last for an entire month, you will charge 50% coinsurance. Admittedly, this is usually employer-driven but the problem behind this is that medications currently only make up 10% of healthcare spend. And they keep people out of the hospital. I find this to be very shortsighted. But insurance companies are looking to turn a profit and the longer you live (by providing preventative care), the more likely you are going to cost them money in the long run when you have a stroke, cancer, COPD, etc.

A quadruple bypass is certainly over $100,000 in costs while a year of Lipitor (the top branded medication in the US) costs $1440. Copay for inpatient hospital stay $50-$100; $20 copay on Lipitor x12 months = $240. Sad. Not much of a monetary incentive to the patient, but it should be for the insurer.

But I don't think anyone should have to go into bankruptcy just because they got the short end of the genetic stick and ended up being a million dollar disease.

[pauliep]

I would be saving peoples time if I could proof read and fix all the grammer here, but I don't.

So I guess I should be compelled to donate half my pay check to the gov't since I'm one of the lucky healthy ones so it goes to those who aren't so lucky? Really? So it's the "aren't so lucky" ones that are really the lucky ones...

Healthcare is a business. You go to school for a skill just like everyone else. To learn a skill to earn a living (otherwise they would volunteer, right?). Life has gone on without doctors. IF you got sick and didn't know what to do, you went on with what you had (still don't get how people got on without brushing their teeth and no tooth paste?). Thousands of years in human history, this was it. Doctors and surgeons were a perk of royalty. Before that, people lived in very small communities and worked towards to good of the community. That was then and this is now. Now, no one's ass is royal and nothing comes free.

The nice thing about this country is we can speak for or against something. You want others to help pay your bills then go ahead to lobby for it. If you don't want to pay someone's bills, lobby for it. Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

...Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

Uh, no they didn't.

Read the signature below----------v

[Shea]

I didn't choose to get sick. So I guess that was selfish. If I could afford my medications. I would still be trying to get this to go through because I am not the only one in this situation. There are people out there dieing because of this. Not the healthy people that have jobs that provide health insurance.

So you feel you have the power and right to compel, through force, people to see as you do and take their labor for your own ends? It's just an amazing entitlement mentality that you have there.

And no its not about me, me, me. Its about everybody we need this.

You want it because you benefit from it. Polls show that the majority of Americans are happy with their health care (89%) and the bulk of the people without insurance receive coverage (70%).

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...appy-coverage/

So no, everybody doesn't need this...you need it and that's why you want it. Let's be honest about your motivations here...

To Quote MLK "A man who is not willing to die for something is not fit to live."

...and I'm willing to die to keep the government out of the lives of every citizen. So where does that put us?

So basically if I had to die to see this go through I would. Because I know I would be saving countless lifes.

I'm sure you tell yourself that, and it makes you feel good however the numbers don't support such a claim.

[Raptor]

As Shea said...the system is in dire need of repair...but government care isn't the answer in my book.
I know it is a simplistic view...but we already have two separate government health care plans and look at the condition they are both in. Why in the world would you want to introduce a third program when your first two are bombing? Granted, medicare and medicaid both have their own demons that don't necessarily cross over for a good comparison, but I think we need to look long and hard at fixing the two problems we already have before we go an introduce a third. (A third of which I don't think should even be an option personally...)

I'll see your medicare and medicaid, and raise you one VA. Here's just one of hundreds of examples of what existing government-run health care can offer:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wOXBAD9A751CG0

From the AP:

As vets await checks, VA workers get $24M bonuses
By KIMBERLY HEFLING (AP) – Aug 21, 2009
WASHINGTON — Outside the Veterans Affairs Department, severely wounded veterans have faced financial hardship waiting for their first disability payment. Inside, money has been flowing in the form of $24 million in bonuses.
In scathing reports this week, the VA's inspector general said thousands of technology office employees at the VA received the bonuses over a two-year period, some under questionable circumstances. It also detailed abuses ranging from nepotism to an inappropriate relationship between two VA employees.
The inspector general accused one recently retired VA official of acting "as if she was given a blank checkbook" as awards and bonuses were distributed to employees of the Office of Information and Technology in 2007 and 2008. In some cases the justification for the bonuses was inadequate or questionable, the IG said.
The official, Jennifer S. Duncan, also engaged in nepotism and got $60,000 in bonuses herself, the IG said. In addition, managers improperly authorized college tuition payments for VA employees, some of whom were Duncan's family members and friends. That cost taxpayers nearly $140,000.
Separately, a technology office employee became involved in an "inappropriate personal relationship" with a high-level VA official. The technology office employee flew 22 times from Florida to Washington, where the VA official lived. That travel cost $37,000.
The details on the alleged improprieties were in two IG reports issued this week. VA spokeswoman Katie Roberts said the agency was extremely concerned about the IG's findings and would pursue a thorough review.
"VA does not condone misconduct by its employees and will take the appropriate correction action for those who violate VA policy," Roberts said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
The number of claims the VA needs to process has escalated, and the Information and Technology Office has a critical role in improving the technological infrastructure to handle the increase. President Barack Obama has said creating a seamless transition for records between the Pentagon and the VA could help eliminate a backlog that has left some veterans waiting months for a disability check.
Much of the IG's focus was on Duncan, the former executive assistant to the ex-assistant secretary for information and technology, Robert Howard.
In one situation, a part-time intern with connections to Duncan was allowed to convert to a full-time paid position even though the individual was working a part-time schedule 500 miles away at college, the IG said.
"We have never known of any other new VA employee provided such favorable treatment," the IG said.
The individual's name and relationship to Duncan was blacked out, as were many other names in the reports.
Investigators recommended that the employees who received the college money pay it back. The largest amount awarded was $33,000.
In addition to Duncan, three other high-level employees received $73,000, $58,000 and $59,000 in bonuses in 2007 and 2008, the IG said. In 2007 alone, 4,700 employees were awarded bonuses, on average $2,500 each.
Some employees were given cash awards for services that were supposedly provided before the employees started working at VA, the IG said.
A man who answered the phone at Duncan's residence in Rehoboth Beach, Del., said she was not available, and he said not to call back.
The IG also found that Katherine Adair Martinez, deputy assistant secretary for information protection and risk management in the Office of Information and Technology, misused her position, abused her authority and engaged in prohibited personnel practices when she influenced a VA contractor and later VA subordinates to employ a friend.
The IG also said Martinez "took advantage of an inappropriate personal relationship" with Howard to transfer her job to Florida. In the nine months after she moved, the IG said Martinez traveled to Washington 22 times "to accomplish tasks that she could easily do from Florida."
The relationship between Martinez and Howard started in April 2007 and continued several months after Howard left the VA in January of this year, the IG said.
Roberts' e-mail did not address a request from the AP to speak with Martinez. Howard could not be immediately located for comment.
Indiana Rep. Steve Buyer, top Republican on the House Veterans' Affairs Committee, urged quick action to fix the problems. "VA must appoint honorable individuals to these critical positions," he said.
The VA has faced criticism before in its awarding of bonuses. In 2007, the AP reported that the then-VA secretary had approved a generous package of more than $3.8 million in bonus payments in 2006, citing a need to retain longtime VA executives.

__________________________________________________ _____________

It is a mistake to assume that anyone opposing health care reform believes that the current system is flawless. Understand, what is being proposed is not the only viable alternative. Considering the track record of comparable example, I wouldn't consider it viable at all.
How many in favor of BO's plan actively lobbied for reform of the health care system prior to its introduction? I don't mean typing about it on a social forum, I mean how many wrote the appropriate offices, contacted the necessary officials, or joined or started groups pursuing reform.

[Tipys]

I would be saving peoples time if I could proof read and fix all the grammer here, but I don't.

So I guess I should be compelled to donate half my pay check to the gov't since I'm one of the lucky healthy ones so it goes to those who aren't so lucky? Really? So it's the "aren't so lucky" ones that are really the lucky ones...

Healthcare is a business. You go to school for a skill just like everyone else. To learn a skill to earn a living (otherwise they would volunteer, right?). Life has gone on without doctors. IF you got sick and didn't know what to do, you went on with what you had (still don't get how people got on without brushing their teeth and no tooth paste?). Thousands of years in human history, this was it. Doctors and surgeons were a perk of royalty. Before that, people lived in very small communities and worked towards to good of the community. That was then and this is now. Now, no one's ass is royal and nothing comes free.

The nice thing about this country is we can speak for or against something. You want others to help pay your bills then go ahead to lobby for it. If you don't want to pay someone's bills, lobby for it. Everyone voted for "Change," now you have to face the reality of it.

Point alot of people are missing is anything can happen to you at anytime.

One school isn't cheap Neither are is medication. So its really not all that easy to go to school and get a good job that has great health insurance. (I am working on this myself right now) However what happens when you lose your job and heath insurance. Does that make it that you not need them anymore?

So you feel you have the power and right to compel, through force, people to see as you do and take their labor for your own ends? It's just an amazing entitlement mentality that you have there.



You want it because you benefit from it. Polls show that the majority of Americans are happy with their health care (89%) and the bulk of the people without insurance receive coverage (70%).

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...appy-coverage/

So no, everybody doesn't need this...you need it and that's why you want it. Let's be honest about your motivations here...



...and I'm willing to die to keep the government out of the lives of every citizen. So where does that put us?



I'm sure you tell yourself that, and it makes you feel good however the numbers don't support such a claim.

Heathcare is something that should be provided by the goverment. Simple as that just like the police and fire.

No your wrong this would help everyone. Anything can happen to anyone at any time.

Is your life worth more then anyone else? No. So why be against the idea of a program that is going to help EVERYONE?

I feel the need to repeat myself.

How would you feel if a loved one lost there life because they couldn't get health insurance?

By the way: I would be dead in a week without my medication and there are many others just like me.

[Raptor]

Heathcare is something that should be provided by the goverment. Simple as that just like the police and fire.

This is purely subjective reasoning. Regardless, right now, within the 3 examples of gov-run health care offered in this thread, corruption, mismanagement, and misappropriation are protocol. Why is it so difficult to understand the real logic behind those who do not agree with the proposed reform?
Instead the agenda is defended with what? Accusations of racism?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09032009...nte_187917.htm
Is a legitimate and trustworthy reform movement going to allude to propaganda, attempting to discredit those who do not agree with it?

By the way: I would be dead in a week without my medication and there are many others just like me.

Understood. Do you believe this same scenario is improbable for those who are already entitled to gov-run health care? How many times has the VA denied or neglected responsibility for treatment of veterans suffering from severe physical and mental afflictions?

http://vets.yuku.com/topic/33132/t/Denied-PTSD-IU.html

http://www.wwaytv3.com/node/17691

http://www.roberta-barth.com/news_vet.html

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1436

http://www.kidk.com/news/50183927.html

etc.etc.etc.etc.etc......

[Tipys]

This is purely subjective reasoning. Regardless, right now, within the 3 examples of gov-run health care offered in this thread, corruption, mismanagement, and misappropriation are protocol. Why is it so difficult to understand the real logic behind those who do not agree with the proposed reform?
Instead the agenda is defended with what? Accusations of racism?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09032009...nte_187917.htm
Is a legitimate and trustworthy reform movement going to allude to propaganda, attempting to discredit those who do not agree with it?



Understood. Do you believe this same scenario is improbable for those who are already entitled to gov-run health care? How many times has the VA denied or neglected responsibility for treatment of veterans suffering from severe physical and mental afflictions?

It is not improbable in its current state. Because they can turn around and say your not sick enough to qualify for goverment benefits. When it is provided to everyone it will be alot harder to say you don't qualify for said benefits.

[Raptor]

It is not improbable in its current state. Because they can turn around and say your not sick enough to qualify for goverment benefits. When it is provided to everyone it will be alot harder to say you don't qualify for said benefits.

How exactly do you figure that? You're saying that with the creation of an office appointed to handle an immensely larger number of recipients, that efficiency will increase?

Do you have any credible source that supports the assertion that the reform will not be subject to the ridiculous flaws suffered in other gov-run health care offices?

[t_jolt]

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.

I dont want to say this but shit happens. My son is horribly ill with pneumonia again as of sat. Yes i myself have over 30k in med bills for my 2 yearold. But guess what. I dont go bitching about how other people need to pay it for me. Thats just stupid. Im tired of hearing about this health care crap. Guess what, people made decisions when they were young. I decided to go into computers, i make money. Others when to warehouse workers, or took a job that didnt offer health care. Everyone knows before they take the job. They could of held out for a job with health care, or a better plan. But they didnt. How is that my fault? Everyone makes their own choice. Not knowing what life is going to throw at them. Im sorry. But i refuse to pay for someone's life just cause the gov wants me too. I dont care who you are. If you mean something to me. im going help. Hell even someone handing out fliers to save a life. ill probably donate a few bucks. But guess what im broke cause my son is sick. But its life. I dont go bitching to everyone about it.

One school isn't cheap Neither are is medication. So its really not all that easy to go to school and get a good job that has great health insurance. (I am working on this myself right now) However what happens when you lose your job and heath insurance. Does that make it that you not need them anymore?

Its all about the choices you've made. You could've gone to school, earlier in life. You could've paid more attention in high school got a scholarship. etc.etc.etc. It doesnt matter what the excuse are. Life happens. Thats the way it is, and thats the way its always going to be.

[Tipys]

How exactly do you figure that? You're saying that with the creation of an office appointed to handle an immensely larger number of recipients, that efficiency will increase?

Do you have any credible source that supports the assertion that the reform will not be subject to the ridiculous flaws suffered in other gov-run health care offices?

Anyone even the goverment is not that good at running things.


Also insurance its self has the same flaws if not more. So why not provide it to everyone saves more lifes and let the goverment run it? Thats right you never think something in the private sector could possible have flaws.



Also on a side note. Its funny how so many people are pro life. Untill it cost money out of there pocket. I am not saying anyone here is pro life. Just you know a good amount of pro life people are agienst this becasue it effects there pocket.