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Thread: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

  1. #1
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Amid all the Republicans patting themselves on the back and Obama saying it wasn't a repudiation of his policies, the Federal Reserve today began to implement "Quantitative Easing 2"....aka debt monitization. This wonderful slight of hand basically is them printing money out of thin air and then buying T-Bills since there is no longer a market for them (no one wants to buy worthless paper, even the Chinese). Ostensibly this is to "prime the market with liquidity", which in normal human-speak is "pump worthless money into the system in the 'hopes' that it will cause you to spend more". Any first-year economic student (maybe even Canuck) can tell you more money chasing the same amount of goods will cause an increase in prices (that's inflation kids).

    So thanks to the brain trust at the Fed, everyone who has a job and doesn't get a cost of living increase every year (pretty much everyone) will have the net effect of getting a 20% pay decrease (you get paid the same but it's actually worth less).

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...01011115792652

    The Dow will go up and the politicians will sing, but it will only go up because there is more money, not because any actual values have risen. Meanwhile you and I will pay more for food (Milk is already up 18% this year, wheat futures are up 48.5%) and gas since a bbl of oil is pegged to the dollar. I hear ammo is a pretty good investment at this time...
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

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    Gold Member Yearly Supporter mtnairlover's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    lol...wow...seems to me that it continues to be big business in the driver's seat. Aren't we tired of being dragged by the tow chain, yet?

    Hey Shea, what do you think of this guy's ideas? You kinda have to read the whole article to get what he's saying, but I am not an economist, so I'm not sure if that would be any better.
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    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnairlover View Post
    lol...wow...seems to me that it continues to be big business in the driver's seat. Aren't we tired of being dragged by the tow chain, yet?

    Hey Shea, what do you think of this guy's ideas? You kinda have to read the whole article to get what he's saying, but I am not an economist, so I'm not sure if that would be any better.
    Tax cuts (which I am all in favor of) without a cut in spending (which I am very much in favor of) is just plain stupid. We HAVE to balance our budget, which unfortunately will be painful to a great many people. Spending money we don't have just exacerbates our problems. Bush cutting taxes, then adding an completely unneeded entitlement program (Medicare Part D) and THEN launching two very questionable military campaigns was the epitome of idiocy. Obama had just continued the process of destruction, just with a bigger deficit.

    Reducing FICA taxes as a means to spur the economy, which is what the link suggested, is the worst idea. The ponzi scheme that is Social Security is already paying out more in benefits then it takes in:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/bu.../25social.html

    Reducing the contributions will only hasten it's demise, despite all our politicians proclaiming that it doesn't need to be fixed. Only drastic cost cutting will prevent us from going over the cliff. The alternative, according to the Fed, is to inflate the money supply so much that our 14 trillion dollar debt is actually only $.50. Personally I don't want to carry $5 million to buy a loaf of bread.
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

  4. #4
    Gold Member Bueller's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Cutting spending will lead to tough decisions, where oh where to start?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...y_expenditures


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    Senior Member jbnwc's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea View Post
    The ponzi scheme that is Social Security is already paying out more in benefits then it takes in:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/bu.../25social.html

    Reducing the contributions will only hasten it's demise, despite all our politicians proclaiming that it doesn't need to be fixed.
    Our new senator, Ken Buck, is ALL about fixing the SS ponzi. Oh wait. Crap.
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    ???

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    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by derekm View Post
    SUCKS!!
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    Senior Member Sarge's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Bueller View Post
    Cutting spending will lead to tough decisions, where oh where to start?

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...y_expenditures

    As much as I'm for that, I'm just afraid of #2 on that list.
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    Resident Hater Site Admin Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Why did I get thrown into this Shea? I agree with most of your first post. The SS is were we part ways.
    RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!

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    Resident Hater Site Admin Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    I'm putting my money in Plastics. It's the future.
    RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!

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    Gold Member MetaLord 9's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
    I'm putting my money in Plastics.
    Meanwhile, Blanket's busy taking money OFF your plastic!
    [SIGPIC][SIGPIC]

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    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
    Why did I get thrown into this Shea? I agree with most of your first post. The SS is were we part ways.
    Because you're a self-professed socialist, and I hate you

    Just poking you with a stick. Which part of the SS part did you disagree with? That its a ponzi scheme? Sorry brother but from SEC's own website:

    "A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investor."

    It takes three working people to fund the benefits of one retiree. Sounds pretty much like the very definition, does it not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Mass composting of excess humans with an IQ under 120. Turn the compost into feed for the animals that the smart people will eat.
    First rule of the internet: *bleep* you and everything you stand for. Second rule of the internet: FKZOR U AND RRYTHING U STND FR!

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    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaclis View Post
    Mass composting of excess humans with an IQ under 120. Turn the compost into feed for the animals that the smart people will eat.
    I am intrigued by your comments and wish to subscribe to your newsletter...
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

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    Gold Member Yearly Supporter mtnairlover's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    People are afraid to lose out on their SS benefits...it's their fall back. Thing is a lot of people rely on that and only that.

    Here's one thing I've learned after working in the public sector...PERA is a lot more friendly and it's a whole lot more comfy retiring with PERA benefits. The money came out of my paycheck before taxes. I did not pay into SS, only PERA. Had I stayed in the public sector, after working for 30 years in that sector, the way PERA worked was it took your earnings for the last 3 years of your service and averaged it, then you get paid 75% of that average for the rest of your life. That's amazing to me, especially since at that time of a person's life, the mortgage is paid and so living is a whole lot easier. At least, that's what I saw when I spoke with others who had retired and were living quite happily.

    Anyway, people on the outside (not in the public sector) don't like PERA, cuz they see folks retiring early and living well. In my opinion, it's more a jealousy factor (stay with me, I'm getting to some kind of conclusion)...but the bigger issue is because everyone else realizes they more than likely will not have SS when they retire...so they're stuck and freaking out.

    So, what if there was some other "scheme" to take pre-tax money of everyone's paycheck, invest it, and when a person is ready for retirement, there it is? I'm saying across the board...not something separate for public employees, but something that is the same percentage no matter where you work?

    Is this idea hard to do? Is it because everyone is freaked out that pre-tax dollars are going somewhere like a black hole? Am I way off base?

    Oh and yeah...no doubt we will have to cut spending, but it's the what kind that is hard to come to a consensus about. Those graphs in Wikipedia are freakin scary.
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    Resident Hater Site Admin Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    My work schedule is busy today, so I'm not going to get into anoter 3 page (+) debate on the success and failures of SS. But what is your solution. Give it to the Bankster scumbags on Wall St?
    RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!

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    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
    My work schedule is busy today, so I'm not going to get into anoter 3 page (+) debate on the success and failures of SS. But what is your solution. Give it to the Bankster scumbags on Wall St?
    Canada's system, as you've described it, sounds workable. The problem is no one has the stones to get into it since it's the "third rail" of politics. The only options apparently available to us are 1) raise the retirement age, 2) means test the benefits 3) cut benefits or 4) raise the tax. None of those are particularly palatable and doing any of them would lead to a firestorm of hate from whoever is in the opposition and the AARP. Doing nothing is not acceptable.

    I would prefer "ownership" of an individuals retirement. If you've put money aside your entire adult life, it should be yours. As it stands now, you pay into the system for 40+ years and if you die on your 64th birthday the government takes it all.

    In the grand scheme of things, defined benefits (you get X every month, no matter how much you've put in) as opposed to defined contribution plans (you put in X amount and you get Y amount based on that) are a problem and will be the doom of the massive amount of underwater pension plans in the US. These mismanaged union plans that have been underfunded for years are going to be bailed out by us taxpayers at some point in the very near future.
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

  18. #18
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Yep, they are basically monetizing the Federal deficit. Bernanke and crew need to be run out of town IMO, and the people in these banks running these mortgage-backed securities schemes need to be locked up with Bubba for a few years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiTikduJ15Y

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    Resident Hater Site Admin Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    From one of only two politicians that I actually respect in this country.
    Sanders: A way to make Social Security solvent for the next 75 years
    by Editor on August 16, 2010
    Editor’s note: This op-ed is by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt.
    Social Security just turned 75, and all across the country, people and senior organizations are celebrating this enormous achievement. Before President Franklin Roosevelt signed the law on August 14, 1935, about half of the senior citizens in American lived in poverty. That began to change on January 31, 1940, when the first monthly retirement check, for $22.54, was issued to retired legal secretary Ida May Fuller of Ludlow, Vt.
    Today, more than 52 million Americans, including more than 124,000 Vermonters, receive benefits. For three quarters of a century, Social Security has been a great success doing exactly what it was designed to do. During that entire period not one American who has been eligible for Social Security has failed to receive benefits they were entitled to receive. That’s a pretty good record. Today, Social Security not only provides retirement benefits to seniors, it provides support for the disabled and widows and orphans.
    Sadly, despite its enormously successful record, Social Security has in recent years become a political football. For ideological reasons there are those in Congress who believe that government should not be involved in providing benefits to seniors or the disabled. Rather, they believe in the privatization of Social Security and that workers should, if they want, invest in retirement programs administered by Wall Street and the private sector. Others are arguing that “Social Security is going bankrupt” and, at the very least, benefits should be reduced and the retirement age should be raised to 70.
    Let me make it very clear that I disagree with both of those assertions. First, the Social Security system has been enormously effective and efficient for the last 75 years. It must not be privatized. Working people are entitled to the continued security that the system provides and should not be forced to be dependent for their retirement and basic needs upon the ups and downs of the stock market. Despite the deep recession that we are currently in, not one American on Social Security has failed to receive the full benefits that he/she is entitled to. Just think about what would have happened in the last several years to millions of Americans if Social Security had been privatized and all of their retirement funds had been in the stock market. Secondly, Social Security is not going bankrupt and, with modest adjustments, will be available to our kids and grandchildren.
    Despite what you may have seen or heard, the Social Security Trust Fund today has a $2.5 trillion surplus that is projected to grow to more than $4 trillion in 2023. According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, Social Security will be able to pay every nickel owed to every eligible beneficiary until the year 2039. Let me repeat that. According to the people who have studied this issue most thoroughly, Social Security will be able to pay out all benefits for the next 29 years. At that time, in 2039, it will be able to pay out only 78 percent of benefits. What that means is that while the system is strong today and for many years to come, it’s important that we make some changes soon so that Social Security remains strong and solvent for the next 75 years. And there’s a pretty easy way to do that.
    According to the Congressional Budget Office, if the Social Security payroll tax was applied to all income, Social Security would be solvent for the next 75 years. Right now, because of the cap on income subject to Social Security payroll taxes, someone who earns $106,800 a year pays the same amount into Social Security taxes as a billionaire. That’s wrong and unfair and must be changed. Simply applying the Social Security payroll tax to all incomes would correct this inequity and bring in enough funds to keep the system strong for the next 75 years.
    In an August 6 letter to the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, Rep. Peter DeFazio and I suggested making the wealthiest Americans pay the same Social Security payroll tax as the rest of us. As we wrote in this letter, “This revenue boost eliminates any reason to cut Social Security benefits. We must reaffirm our commitment to one of the greatest legislative accomplishments without privatizing Social Security, reducing benefits or raising the full retirement age.”
    The reason that we have to protect and strengthen Social Security is pretty obvious. It is a life and death issue for millions of the most vulnerable people in our society. Today, the median income for senior households is $24,000 – reflecting just how much Social Security means to most American seniors. Social Security provides the majority of income for two-thirds of our elderly. For one-third, it provides nearly all their income.
    Further, let us not forget that Social Security is vital not only to seniors but to the disabled and widows and orphans. The evidence is very clear that no private insurance plan can compete with the disability benefits offered by Social Security. For a worker in her mid-20s with a spouse and two children, Social Security provides the equivalent of a $350,000 disability insurance policy. Most workers could not obtain or afford similar coverage outside of Social Security.
    As we celebrate the successful 75th anniversary of Social Security, now is the time to make sure that our kids and grandchildren will be able to celebrate a similar event 75 years from now.

    Posted in Opinion | Tagged Bernie Sanders, Congressional Budget Office, Social Security | 1 Response
    RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!

  20. #20
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea View Post
    I would prefer "ownership" of an individuals retirement.
    PRIVATIZATION?!?!?!?!?!? You fucking selfish bastard! How dare you expect people to be responsible for themselves. Hell no! That would be an unmitigated disaster. We need big daddy to take care of everybody.



    Dirk
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    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Resident Hater Site Admin Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea View Post
    In the grand scheme of things, defined benefits (you get X every month, no matter how much you've put in) as opposed to defined contribution plans (you put in X amount and you get Y amount based on that) are a problem and will be the doom of the massive amount of underwater pension plans in the US. These mismanaged union plans that have been underfunded for years are going to be bailed out by us taxpayers at some point in the very near future.
    Mismanaged is a vague generalization. I'll give you an empirical example. My Union pension is now at "endangered" stage. Meaning that we are between 70-85% solvent. Our pension took a dive when the stock market took a massive shit in '08. The real-estate scandal and all of these CDS (credit default swaps) were/are tied into the stock and bonds that alot of pension plans and private investors bought into. Most of what is at fault are the Banksters and the 100 or so uber rich in this country that really control things.
    Viva la resistànce!
    RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!

  22. #22
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    The problem Canuck is that ALL that "money" that the SSA says is in the the "trust fund" doesn't actually exist. In order to cook the books, our illustrious government took the cash from that fund and replaced it with special treasury notes (aka IOUs). In 2000, Bill Clinton's OMB stated:

    "These [Trust Fund] balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other trust fund expenditures-but only in a bookkeeping sense. These funds are not set up to be pension funds, like the funds of private pension plans. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury, that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large trust fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, make it easier for the government to pay benefits. "

    Social Security liabilities are PURPOSEFULLY kept OFF the government balance sheets because they would freak people out. The system is definitely in trouble with fictitious bookkeeping that makes Enron look tame.
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

  23. #23
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
    Mismanaged is a vague generalization. I'll give you an empirical example. My Union pension is now at "endangered" stage. Meaning that we are between 70-85% solvent. Our pension took a dive when the stock market took a massive shit in '08.
    Then it was mismanaged. Clearly it was too heavily invested in equities for the payouts it had to make.

    And yes, the banksters have pulled off some massive fraud, especially on the MBS stuff. They're trying to get out of paying for the mess they've created and the politicians are playing right along. But bullshit can't overcome the mathematical realities in play forever, and the more of this quantitative easing crap they foist on us, the more disastrous the final collapse will be.

    Dirk
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



  24. #24
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter Shea's Avatar
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    Re: QE2 or you get a 20% pay cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck View Post
    Mismanaged is a vague generalization. I'll give you an empirical example. My Union pension is now at "endangered" stage. Meaning that we are between 70-85% solvent. Our pension took a dive when the stock market took a massive shit in '08. The real-estate scandal and all of these CDS (credit default swaps) were/are tied into the stock and bonds that alot of pension plans and private investors bought into. Most of what is at fault are the Banksters and the 100 or so uber rich in this country that really control things.
    Viva la resistànce!
    I know you have a special love for unions, but for a group of people (powerful elite themselves) that put more emphasis in promoting their political agenda rather then funding their own members pension plans...and then to use their bought politicians to shift that burden onto American taxpayers. I've got a problem with it.


    So we are on the hook for $500+ Billion, and that is just for publicly traded companies, state union pensions underwater add billions more.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...-95056214.html
    Shea
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    THERE IS NO TIME FOR RATIONAL SOLUTIONS!
    WE HAVE TO TAKE DRASTIC IRRATIONAL MEASURES NOW!
    LIVES ARE IN DANGER!

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