Finally, someone explains it perfectly!!

[ghostrider_9]

That wasn't you, then?

Ok, maybe it was, but not when I was sober . . .

[~Barn~]

Not sure what buttons it is you are trying to push. What would you do then? Or is your hero obama changing the world?

No button pushing, just trying to make sense of all the different perspectives out there. We're all part of a perishable existence, so I guess that makes our points of view, important to us all, but nobody is perfect.

Obama isn't my hero either. He got the job he asked for, and it's one I don't envy. I do find myself aligned with him at times, but not with everything. And hey... considering his stage and station in life, I admire his diplomacy. Thankfully I don't need a hero, so I don't have to consider him in those terms.

[~Barn~]

So Marc... you accuse me of falsly steering this conversation into something about "me", and then close your thoughts with a bolded (almost as if it's coming from you personally) "You're Welcome!"

I'll give my gratitude where and when I see fit, so kindly put your presumptions about my thanks to you at rest. They are imagined.

[~Barn~]

And just to clarify a little bit more, before I go to bed....

If the thoughts that I expressed - despite my preemptive and repeated efforts to qualify them in terms of responding to this video - were misunderstood, then that is something I can't help. It's like trying to satrize that which is already parody... not everybody can keep up.

I can only try to reiterate the vast lack of balance in this world and this life, and acknowledge that it can always be worse, and it can always be made better. I can only remain vigilant to protect the fortunate circumstances that I was born into, and the ongoing bubble that I have created and cultivated for myself. And I must remain selfish to it, to protect it for those that I cherish around me.

I pick my battles, because while I do realize I sleep soundly under the protection of others (perhaps even that of Mr. West himself), no hero, or god, or soldier, or town-hall participant, is likely to be weight that upsets the balance. At least that's my perspective for now... I know enough to not consider it perfect. I can only hope that Mr. West is wise enough to consider his convictions with the same open-mindedness. From my perspective though, it sounded an awful lot like the propaganda, that the other side, would have you believe.

[ghostrider_9]

So Marc... you accuse me of falsly steering this conversation into something about "me", and then close your thoughts with a bolded (almost as if it's coming from you personally) "You're Welcome!"

Yes, I did. It's called irony slathered with sarcasm . . .

I'll give my gratitude where and when I see fit, so kindly put your presumptions about my thanks to you at rest. They are imagined.

So, when you said:

find myself very thankful and fortunate, that United States soldiers do what they do. But aside from that, by simple virtue of these personal facts about myself

were you being selective about your thankfulness?

[~Barn~]

While I had hope not to be selective Marc, let's just say that the military personal most intended for my thanks, are probably not in a position to participate in this discussion at the current hour; their duty certainly more treacherous, than having to listen to us pontificate.

[ghostrider_9]

While I had hope not to be selective Marc, let's just say that the military personal most intended for my thanks, are probably not in a position to participate in this discussion at the current hour; their duty certainly more treacherous, than having to listen to us pontificate.

Are you saying that my service is somehow less worthy because I am not currently fighting? Are you trying to imply that all of my years ar invalid because they are not current at this moment? I truly hope that you rethink this comment. For now, I will just chalk your dismissal up to the fact that it was very late.

[usmcab35]

Are you saying that my service is somehow less worthy because I am not currently fighting? Are you trying to imply that all of my years ar invalid because they are not current at this moment? I truly hope that you rethink this comment. For now, I will just chalk your dismissal up to the fact that it was very late.

i dont think he is saying that at all, he was simply talking about the people currently serving. Im a former marine, and now full time in the national guard and i honestly could care less if people like what i do, thank me, or pat me on the back, now this may seem selfish but i honestly dont do what i do for all of the thanks or even the average joe. I do it for the guy/girl to my right and left. if you like what i do great, if you dont and you think im a baby killer, great. this is why i never talk politics or religion with anyone, cause in the end everyone has their own "right" and everyone gets all mad... ok im done, sure someone will get mad lol

[dirkterrell]

For the record, the context of the conversation is directly related a comment that was made the week before where someone asked, “Why do they want to do this?” Specifically, Helen Thomas asked this in regards to the Christmas bombing incident. She asked, “Why would someone pervert a religion so that they could attack us?” I’m paraphrasing here. (for the record you could have heard all this yourself by simply clicking once on the link to the full question and full answer) LtCol Allen West’s response was an attempt to explain that they did not “pervert” a religion, but rather that this is fundamentally how certain groups of this religion believe and is based on the writings that these particular groups follow.

Ok, let's look at this idea. If it's not a perversion, it must be mainstream thinking among Islamic scholars. But I have already shown that the Quran does not call for violence against non-Muslims who have not committed violence against Muslims. To wit:

that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice

So, in fact, they are directed to be peaceful to others. So, if a group claims that the Quran directs them to blindly kill non-Muslims, that would be a perversion of Islam.

Now in all honesty, not all Islamic groups are like that. I think that we can all agree on that. If you looked at the Christian version of the “Lord’s word”, you would find that it is riddled with just as much hate and violence as the books that they follow are. There are just as many passages and calls to arms as what they are reading.

Deuteronomy 13 anyone?

The difference is that we have not taken that to action (well, not most of us anyway).

Not recently but history is replete with Christianity's failings in this regard. I previously mentioned Spain and how Jews, Christians and Muslims lived peacefully under Muslim rule for centuries. Contrast that with how the Jews were treated there when Christianity came to power. They were forced to convert or leave the country. Having lived with fundamentalist Christians for a large fraction of my life, I can easily imagine such transgressions happening again if they were to come into power. I think most Christians today would argue that such behaviour would be a perversion of Christianity.

On the other hand, a rather large group of them has embraced this plan and are truly taking it to action, as they have done for a very long time. Therein is the dividing point between “us” and “them”.

Their holy book says that if they are attacked, it is their duty to fight the enemy. I think just about every American, and certainly a USMC Gunnery Sergeant, would agree that such a reaction is justified. So, if they have been attacked, they must fight. Have they been attacked? The current political state of the Middle East is a result of the invasion of the British Empire going back more than a century. And, because of our dependence on the resources of that region, we have been involved in maintaining that political state by supporting what we would otherwise view as unseemly despots who have oppressed the people under their rule. What holds people together under such conditions? Faith. So, when the Shah was overthrown, we shouldn't have been surprised when a religious state was established and the people of Iran held us in contempt for supporting the regime that oppressed them. We supported Sadaam because he sided with us against Iran. He brutally oppressed the majority of the Iraqi population and we supported him. Why should we be surprised that most Iraqis are suspicious and opposed to our occupation of their country? As a proud American, put yourself in that position and ask how you'd react if that had happened to us. We now talk proudly (and rightfully so) of our ancestors who rose up and threw off our oppressors.

You might say that the terrorist actions like bombing civilians is unjustified. I happen to agree. I do not place civilian casualties of our bombing attacks on terrorists anywhere near the same level as actively targeting civilians. But they see their actions differently. They see civilians as supporting the governments that do attack them, and as such, they are complicit in the attacks and thus feel justified in attacking them. They are doing what they are supposed to do to repel the attacks. The Allies used the very same justification against the Axis powers in blanket firebombing of German and Japanese cities, as well as the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The goal was to break the will of the civilian population and force a change in government that would stop the aggressors. It is a well-used tactic for a numerically inferior combatant throughout the history of warfare, as I am sure you well know. So, yes, we can be quite disgusted by it, but we shouldn't be surprised when we see it.

Now, I do think that we have recently tried to do the right thing from our point of view, vis a vis the invasion of Iraq to depose a brutal dictator and try to bring freedom to the Iraqis. Sure, we still have a motivation with the region's resources but I think we are trying to bring both stability and freedom to the region. Blessed are those who defend the freedom of their people but I think it takes an even more blessed person who defends the freedom of all people, and that is how I see the US military's presence in the Middle East today. Given the history of western involvement in that area, it is understandable that its native people are skeptical and wary. And potential despots prey on that uncertainty by, yes, perverting a religion only to serve their own ends. We should resist our desire to cast all or even a majority of Muslims as being against us because we are non-Muslims. In doing so, we only serve to do what the Muslim extremists desire: to fan the flames of hatred, cementing their grip on power, and denying their people what we as Americans hold most dearly, freedom.

And yes, Dean, we are not where we should be in terms of true freedom but I have always seen our ideals as goals that we have to constantly fight for, not only against foreign enemies but those among us who would abridge those freedoms. Others fought before us and suffered both defeats and victories. We must do the same.

I agree with LtCol West that we must know our enemy. But that enemy is not those of Muslim faith. It is those who do indeed pervert the religion to serve their own evil ends. They distort faith to fan the flames of hatred, both in their own people, and, if we let them, us. By painting Islam in such a false light, LtCol West falls prey to the trappings of the terrorists and moves us farther from what I am sure is his goal: peace among all people.

Dirk

[~Barn~]

i dont think he is saying that at all, he was simply talking about the people currently serving. Im a former marine, and now full time in the national guard and i honestly could care less if people like what i do, thank me, or pat me on the back, now this may seem selfish but i honestly dont do what i do for all of the thanks or even the average joe. I do it for the guy/girl to my right and left. if you like what i do great, if you dont and you think im a baby killer, great. this is why i never talk politics or religion with anyone, cause in the end everyone has their own "right" and everyone gets all mad... ok im done, sure someone will get mad lol

Isn't is cool how two different people who have both served their country, can have such vastly different feelings regarding (.... there's that word again) perception?

Hell... Eugene is somebody that I've had a disagreement with in the past. I was kind of really angry and disgusted with him there for awhile last year... And even considering that, he's able to look past any lingering emotion, and not muddy the lines between those that may disagree with him, and the profound understanding he has about his service and what it means to him. "To thine own self be true" it was once written, and it's often easier said than done, especially when defending others. Respect due to Gene for keeping it all in perspective.

I can't go on and on today, with this thread, but I'll wrap it up with this. It's less about perceived worthiness Marc, and more about perceived entitlement. I'm not saying that you're not deserving of thanks for your service, because that's not true, you are. What you are were not deserving of last night, was being the assumed spokesperson of those that I feel gratitude toward. It was that entitlement presumption of yours that I took offense to, nothing else.

[usmcab35]

yea me and barn were fighting alittle last year, hope there isnt any ill feelings to that crappy situation that came about last year. well put barn.

[Kim-n-Dean]

And yes, Dean, we are not where we should be in terms of true freedom but I have always seen our ideals as goals that we have to constantly fight for, not only against foreign enemies but those among us who would abridge those freedoms. Others fought before us and suffered both defeats and victories. We must do the same.

I feel the same way, but it's a real hard fight, now. I feel politicians don't listen and don't care. They prove this every time they run for re-election. Didn't our congress duck out before the elections because they didn't want to talk about anything that might hurt their chances of being re-elected?

It seems that most of the people on the Presidents cabinet, past and present, are nowhere near qualified for their positions. How do we expect to get anything done, for the good?!? I mean really!! The Judges and Stewards Commissioner of the Arabian Horse Association was appointed director of FEMA. No wonder it took five days to get water to the SuperDome. Or am I missing something?

I agree with LtCol West that we must know our enemy. But that enemy is not those of Muslim faith. It is those who do indeed pervert the religion to serve their own evil ends. They distort faith to fan the flames of hatred, both in their own people, and, if we let them, us. By painting Islam in such a false light, LtCol West falls prey to the trappings of the terrorists and moves us farther from what I am sure is his goal: peace among all people.

Dirk

Since books of religion are always interpreted, who's to say what "perversion" is and what the book is really trying to say? I'm curious about something. The Christians who murder abortion doctors, aren't they doing what they believe the bible says to do? To them, they are doing exactly what the book says.

I do see what you mean, though. Perhaps Lt. Col. West shouldn't have said, "they're doing exactly what this book says." Implying kill anyone who doesn't agree with you. Maybe he should have said, "they're doing exactly what this book says. If attacked, kill those bastards!"

[dirkterrell]

I feel the same way, but it's a real hard fight, now. I feel politicians don't listen and don't care. They prove this every time they run for re-election. Didn't our congress duck out before the elections because they didn't want to talk about anything that might hurt their chances of being re-elected?

It seems that most of the people on the Presidents cabinet, past and present, are nowhere near qualified for their positions. How do we expect to get anything done, for the good?!? I mean really!! The Judges and Stewards Commissioner of the Arabian Horse Association was appointed director of FEMA. No wonder it took five days to get water to the SuperDome. Or am I missing something?

The problem is that we the people keep sending the same bunch back. Why? Because "our" representative is doing good. It's the rest of the morons that are screwing everything up. We have to quit thinking so provincially when it comes to what politicians are doing. We have to quit being hypocritical when it comes to things like earmarks (love them when they come to us and decry them when they go to others). We have to start thinking in terms of the whole country if we are to turn things around. We have to start voting our conscience rather than thinking we are "wasting" our vote by voting for someone outside the mainstream.

Since books of religion are always interpreted, who's to say what "perversion" is and what the book is really trying to say? I'm curious about something. The Christians who murder abortion doctors, aren't they doing what they believe the bible says to do? To them, they are doing exactly what the book says.

This is where "the mainstream" comes in. Talk to 100 Christians and ask them if it is ok to kill abortion doctors. The vast majority would say no. Ask 100 Muslims if the Koran says it is ok to blindly kill non-Muslims. The vast majority would say no.

I do see what you mean, though. Perhaps Lt. Col. West shouldn't have said, "they're doing exactly what this book says." Implying kill anyone who doesn't agree with you. Maybe he should have said, "they're doing exactly what this book says. If attacked, kill those bastards!"

And I don't think many of us humans, Muslim, Christian, atheist, whatever would respond any differently. When we realize that, it gives you a different view the situation than it does to say "all of these people just want to kill us." And that different perspective is the one that can lead to true peace. Majorities of populations do not want to start wars unless whipped into a frenzy of fear by a power-seeking few. But if attacked, most will fight back. The recent history of the Middle East is one of western imperialism. States like Iraq are the result of edicts by the western countries after WWI (.e.g. the British Mandate of Mesopotamia). We have continued those imperial divisions for the purpose of safeguarding our access to needed natural resources, enriching a few despots at the expense of their subjects. We shouldn't be the least bit surprised that said subjects at best look at us suspiciously.

Dirk

[usmcab35]

yea i never questioned why they were mad and trying to kill us while i was over there. I know if some foreign country came over here and did what we did there, we ( the general pop.) would be making ieds, and doing what we could to get them out of here. plus its a never ending cycle, if some foreign force mowed down a family member of mine, you know me and a few others in my family would join the fight against them. thats when the quote " war is not about who wins, only whos left" really made some sense. granted there is a lot over there that dont twist what their book says and try and blow up every westner, they just want to survive. but if there family gets caught in cross fire, well you just made a new enemy with different reasons... not sure it goes with what you are saying, just feel like adding some wood to the fire

[Filo]

Americans are fat and lazy.

I am going to go kill me some homosexuals, cursers and adulterers now, since that is what it says to do in Leviticus, chapter 20.

[Monica]

It's less about perceived worthiness Marc, and more about perceived entitlement. I'm not saying that you're not deserving of thanks for your service, because that's not true, you are. What you are were not deserving of last night, was being the assumed spokesperson of those that I feel gratitude toward. It was that entitlement presumption of yours that I took offense to, nothing else.

Barn, this comment was inappropriate and casts a grievous shadow on your character. Using the word "entitlement" was a disturbing error on your part and I find myself compelled to respond.

First - Just as a single United States flag is a symbol for an entire country, the strength of the Corps lies in the individual Marine.

Second - The official motto of the Marine Corps League is “Once A Marine, Always a Marine”.

As a United States Marine, Marc represents his fellow Marines and brothers in arms when he says “You’re welcome.” He has never and will never ask for thanks for his personal service. But he will, and rightfully so, insist on an appropriate level of respect for his fellow Marines and those that have walked in harm’s way.

Marc has earned the right to declare, "I might not like what you have to say, but I'll die to defend your right to say it.” You feel that he has presumed an entitlement that he does not deserve or has not earned. Please do not insult the sacrifices he has made by presuming to know what he deserves. I think that his service and his character as a Marine entitle him to this and much more.

[ghostrider_9]

i dont think he is saying that at all, he was simply talking about the people currently serving. Im a former marine, and now full time in the national guard and i honestly could care less if people like what i do, thank me, or pat me on the back, now this may seem selfish but i honestly dont do what i do for all of the thanks or even the average joe. I do it for the guy/girl to my right and left. if you like what i do great, if you dont and you think im a baby killer, great. this is why i never talk politics or religion with anyone, cause in the end everyone has their own "right" and everyone gets all mad... ok im done, sure someone will get mad lol

I completely agree with what you have said. It is a rare occasion that I actually speak up about some of the things that are said, because, as you pointed out, we are all free to have our own opinions. I know that I am not going to change anyone’s opinion, just like I will likely not change mine (but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone might enlighten me with something that I was unaware of . . .). While I can appreciate other’s opinions, the part that got my feathers ruffled was the careless, condescending attitude coupled with the holier than that thou ideology. It’s one thing to have an opinion and express it. That part I’m good with. But, to have someone jump in, feet first, with that sort of attitude when they haven’t even taken the time look at the facts is where I tend to get a little unnerved. I do not condemn someone for their views, but I surely will engage someone who takes the approach that was taken in such a public forum. At the end of the day, I am very comfortable in myself and what others may think do not drive my actions or influence my life.

Ok, let's look at this idea. If it's not a perversion, it must be mainstream thinking among Islamic scholars. But I have already shown that the Quran does not call for violence against non-Muslims who have not committed violence against Muslims. To wit:

It also claims that they should actively fight those that support or help anyone who has ever attacked them. By virtue, those supporters are just as guilty as the people that have attacked them. This is where the separation occurs in their religion. It is not until you start looking into the different groups within the Islamic religion that a person can identify those that have taken a more literal translation to what is written and those that have a practical application to what has been written. Most groups within the Islamic religion, as with most Muslims are not out to fight wars and cause problems. As is the case with most peoples in the world, it is the few that are making it look bad for the whole.

So the question is whether or not they are “perverting” the Islamic religion. The answer (as I see it) is not nearly as easy to define. Realistically, these groups are actually following the very word of what was written. Unfortunately, some are using this to justify their actions. Rather than embracing the concept of what is written they are using these particular passages as a call to arms and action. These are the groups that are doing the things that the rest of the world views as unjust, yet in their eyes, they are completely justified in their actions. Furthermore, according to their convictions and beliefs, they feel it is what they should be doing. So, are they perverting the religion by following certain parts on a literal basis? I guess that is open to interpretation. Personally, I think yes, but that is only my opinion.

So, in fact, they are directed to be peaceful to others. So, if a group claims that the Quran directs them to blindly kill non-Muslims, that would be a perversion of Islam.

Like I said before, while I agree with what you are saying, the difference lies with whether or not the group takes the literal word and follows it or whether they take the overall concept and apply it to their beliefs.

Deuteronomy 13 anyone?

Thank you for the reference.

Not recently but history is replete with Christianity's failings in this regard. I previously mentioned Spain and how Jews, Christians and Muslims lived peacefully under Muslim rule for centuries. Contrast that with how the Jews were treated there when Christianity came to power. They were forced to convert or leave the country. Having lived with fundamentalist Christians for a large fraction of my life, I can easily imagine such transgressions happening again if they were to come into power. I think most Christians today would argue that such behaviour would be a perversion of Christianity.

You are very right. In the past, people, Christians included, have used the literal words to justify their actions. In fact, if you look back through history, at some point almost all religions have been used as a reason to justify the killing of others. The atrocities that have been acted out in this world are beyond grotesque. And many of them are done under the flag of religion.

Their holy book says that if they are attacked, it is their duty to fight the enemy. I think just about every American, and certainly a USMC Gunnery Sergeant, would agree that such a reaction is justified. So, if they have been attacked, they must fight. Have they been attacked? The current political state of the Middle East is a result of the invasion of the British Empire going back more than a century. And, because of our dependence on the resources of that region, we have been involved in maintaining that political state by supporting what we would otherwise view as unseemly despots who have oppressed the people under their rule. What holds people together under such conditions? Faith. So, when the Shah was overthrown, we shouldn't have been surprised when a religious state was established and the people of Iran held us in contempt for supporting the regime that oppressed them. We supported Sadaam because he sided with us against Iran. He brutally oppressed the majority of the Iraqi population and we supported him. Why should we be surprised that most Iraqis are suspicious and opposed to our occupation of their country? As a proud American, put yourself in that position and ask how you'd react if that had happened to us. We now talk proudly (and rightfully so) of our ancestors who rose up and threw off our oppressors.

You have hit the nail right on the head. I have not ever said that the fight that they are fighting is wrong. I have not said that in the same situation, I would not be fighting, just as diligently as they are. What I am saying is that on a fundamental basis, their views directly conflict with ours. Let me qualify that statement. By “their views”, I am not blanketly referring to all Muslims. I am specifically referring to those that feel it is necessary to actively pursue violence against others in the name of their religion or in an attempt further their religious beliefs. When I said “ours”, I am referring to those of us who disagree that they are justified in killing others because of their religious views or to further their religious beliefs. This is the fundamental difference that I am talking about. I cannot condemn them for their beliefs, whether I agree or disagree with them. I will, however, take actions to protect myself and those around me from a person or group that insists on imposing their beliefs using the methods that they have chosen.

Notice in all of this, I have not discussed my personal religious views. My views are exactly that. Mine. I am not going to try to influence others to believe in my personal religious views. I have also not condemned anyone else for their religious views. What I have taken affront to is the method in which it is delivered and, in the case of this thread, the unnecessary tone in which it was conveyed. Notice that in none of this have I have not resolved to violence as a resolution to my differences of opinion on the topic at hand. The reality is that this is the least efficient way to get your point across. There are many Muslims that believe that it is their duty to teach what they hold close to their heart. They simply chose not to resort to violence to do this.

You might say that the terrorist actions like bombing civilians is unjustified. I happen to agree. I do not place civilian casualties of our bombing attacks on terrorists anywhere near the same level as actively targeting civilians. But they see their actions differently. They see civilians as supporting the governments that do attack them, and as such, they are complicit in the attacks and thus feel justified in attacking them. They are doing what they are supposed to do to repel the attacks. The Allies used the very same justification against the Axis powers in blanket firebombing of German and Japanese cities, as well as the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The goal was to break the will of the civilian population and force a change in government that would stop the aggressors. It is a well-used tactic for a numerically inferior combatant throughout the history of warfare, as I am sure you well know. So, yes, we can be quite disgusted by it, but we shouldn't be surprised when we see it.

I don’t think that this is a case of anyone being surprised by the actions they have taken. I think they people are outraged by their actions. Just like we should all be outraged by the horrible waste of lives that have happened throughout history.

This brings me back around to the idea of what was being said in the video. LtCol Allan was not condemning nor disrespecting the Islamic religion. He is simply applying a couple of theories that were made popular in Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
And
If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.

Again, the “enemy” is not all Muslims. The enemy are the groups that have decided to take action against others who are not taking action against them.

This is something that is pounded into the heads of the Marines and Soldiers that are over there fighting the fight. They are not over there simply shooting everything that moves. They are taking great pains, and at a great cost, to seek out those that are of this mindset. Believe me when I explain this, it comes from firsthand knowledge and experience.

Now, I do think that we have recently tried to do the right thing from our point of view, vis a vis the invasion of Iraq to depose a brutal dictator and try to bring freedom to the Iraqis. Sure, we still have a motivation with the region's resources but I think we are trying to bring both stability and freedom to the region. Blessed are those who defend the freedom of their people but I think it takes an even more blessed person who defends the freedom of all people, and that is how I see the US military's presence in the Middle East today. Given the history of western involvement in that area, it is understandable that its native people are skeptical and wary. And potential despots prey on that uncertainty by, yes, perverting a religion only to serve their own ends. We should resist our desire to cast all or even a majority of Muslims as being against us because we are non-Muslims. In doing so, we only serve to do what the Muslim extremists desire: to fan the flames of hatred, cementing their grip on power, and denying their people what we as Americans hold most dearly, freedom.

Again, you are absolutely correct. The largest part of the fight over there is two-fold. One part being the obvious part about actively engaging those that feel they should kill anyone that is not a Muslim. The other part, and the more difficult part, is helping teach the others that live there how to stand up and fight for themselves. The reality is that they have been controlled for so long through fear and stronghand tactics of the few, that they do not know how to take a stand. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it is true. The other part of this is the fear that, when we walk away, those that were controlling them will simply step back in and make them pay for their indiscretions. I refer you back to the ideology that, if you do not support those that feel they are justified in their actions, you are the enemy. This is how they have operated for many years.

And yes, Dean, we are not where we should be in terms of true freedom but I have always seen our ideals as goals that we have to constantly fight for, not only against foreign enemies but those among us who would abridge those freedoms. Others fought before us and suffered both defeats and victories. We must do the same.

And, in order to protect those freedoms that others have fought and died for, I feel it is our duty to actively participate in the governing process. Like I said before, this means that we actually have to be a part of what takes place around us and not sit back, watch it happen, then complain about. I recognize that these are my beliefs and not necessarily those shared by others. My point is that if you are not willing to be an active part in what is going on, then there is no merit in your complaints.

I agree with LtCol West that we must know our enemy. But that enemy is not those of Muslim faith. It is those who do indeed pervert the religion to serve their own evil ends. They distort faith to fan the flames of hatred, both in their own people, and, if we let them, us. By painting Islam in such a false light, LtCol West falls prey to the trappings of the terrorists and moves us farther from what I am sure is his goal: peace among all people.

Dirk

I don’t feel that he has painted the entire Islamic religion in a bad light. I think the he was referring to the ones that I pointed out above, who feel they should take action against us. I am fairly certain the he understands the difference.

Isn't is cool how two different people who have both served their country, can have such vastly different feelings regarding (.... there's that word again) perception?

Hell... Eugene is somebody that I've had a disagreement with in the past. I was kind of really angry and disgusted with him there for awhile last year... And even considering that, he's able to look past any lingering emotion, and not muddy the lines between those that may disagree with him, and the profound understanding he has about his service and what it means to him. "To thine own self be true" it was once written, and it's often easier said than done, especially when defending others. Respect due to Gene for keeping it all in perspective.

I can't go on and on today, with this thread, but I'll wrap it up with this. It's less about perceived worthiness Marc, and more about perceived entitlement. I'm not saying that you're not deserving of thanks for your service, because that's not true, you are. What you are were not deserving of last night, was being the assumed spokesperson of those that I feel gratitude toward. It was that entitlement presumption of yours that I took offense to, nothing else.

And what I’m saying is that you have no grounds to define what I am entitled to. If I made a presumption in my statement, then perhaps I made that presumption based on my firsthand knowledge and experiences that I have been through. You, on the other hand, think that you can define what I am entitled to. As someone who has stood shoulder to shoulder with those that you say you have this gratitude for, I am fairly certain that I am justified in speaking on their behalf or in their absence. I refuse to allow someone who has not shared that burden to disrespectfully decide that they have the right to tell me what I am entitled to.

[King Nothing]

NUKE THE CSC!!!! I mean, INFIDELS! Wait. Wat?

[usmcab35]

haha man this post is getting so big, we should just get beers and discuss this lol

[usmcab35]

NUKE THE CSC!!!! I mean, INFIDELS! Wait. Wat?

[ghostrider_9]

haha man this post is getting so big, we should just get beers and discuss this lol

+ 1000000

[Kim-n-Dean]

haha man this post is getting so big, we should just get beers and discuss this lol

I have often brought up, in person, how I would love to have a group to discuss things like this. Discipline is the hard part. People can't sit back and listen. They wait, many times interrupting, just for their turn to talk!

I'm really interested in space and all the mysterious stuff going on out there. Dirk...

[dirkterrell]

Thank you for that reasoned response, Marc.

Most groups within the Islamic religion, as with most Muslims are not out to fight wars and cause problems. As is the case with most peoples in the world, it is the few that are making it look bad for the whole.

So the question is whether or not they are “perverting” the Islamic religion...

Furthermore, according to their convictions and beliefs, they feel it is what they should be doing. So, are they perverting the religion by following certain parts on a literal basis? I guess that is open to interpretation. Personally, I think yes, but that is only my opinion.
...

What I am saying is that on a fundamental basis, their views directly conflict with ours. Let me qualify that statement. By “their views”, I am not blanketly referring to all Muslims. I am specifically referring to those that feel it is necessary to actively pursue violence against others in the name of their religion or in an attempt further their religious beliefs.

There are many Muslims that believe that it is their duty to teach what they hold close to their heart. They simply chose not to resort to violence to do this.

It seems we are in agreement that the terrorists are "perverting" the Islamic religion to further their own ends.

This brings me back around to the idea of what was being said in the video. LtCol Allan was not condemning nor disrespecting the Islamic religion. He is simply applying a couple of theories that were made popular in Sun Tzu’s “Art of War”.

Again, the “enemy” is not all Muslims. The enemy are the groups that have decided to take action against others who are not taking action against them.

He said "This is not a perversion. They are doing exactly what this book (i.e., the Qur'an) says.". His response clearly implicates Islam itself as the source of the hatred against us. In effect, he is doing the exact same thing as the fundamentalists Muslims: interpreting the words in a narrow and out-of-context way. Or, maybe I am misunderstanding what he is saying, but obviously others have interpreted his words in the same way.

The reality is that they have been controlled for so long through fear and stronghand tactics of the few, that they do not know how to take a stand. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it is true. The other part of this is the fear that, when we walk away, those that were controlling them will simply step back in and make them pay for their indiscretions. I refer you back to the ideology that, if you do not support those that feel they are justified in their actions, you are the enemy. This is how they have operated for many years.

Nope, I understand it very well. I was exposed to Islamic culture on a daily basis for the better part of 20 years.

And, in order to protect those freedoms that others have fought and died for, I feel it is our duty to actively participate in the governing process. Like I said before, this means that we actually have to be a part of what takes place around us and not sit back, watch it happen, then complain about. I recognize that these are my beliefs and not necessarily those shared by others. My point is that if you are not willing to be an active part in what is going on, then there is no merit in your complaints.

Agreed.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

I'm really interested in space and all the mysterious stuff going on out there.

So am I.

If people were interested, I'd be happy to do some presentations and star parties on various topics in astronomy.

Dirk