We? Who's we? As I've said, I worked in Union shops and non-Union. My opportunities have been much better in non-Union shops.Originally Posted by Canuck
As I've said - if your work place has sub standard work conditions or worker safety issues, OSHA or Channel 9 news is foaming at the mouth to stand up for you.
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Not only that, neither OSHA nor Channel 9 news will charge you a weekly fee to expose workplace conditions. AND they won't get in your way of promotion when you're willing to work harder than the deadbeat beside you with more "seniority".
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My company doesn't have any unions and we do all of this and much much more at a more efficient pace and still get the best products for the price to our clients. My company is consistently ranked in the top 10 companies in the world for benefits and it's all without the hindrance of any union. If you don't like your company, get a job at a competitor who has better pay/benefits. If you want better pay/benefits where you are at, work your ass off and EARN it.
Good for you. That is your choice an I have no problem with that. Since you are using epirical evidence, I can state that mine are the opposite of your experiences.
As I've said - if your work place has sub standard work conditions or worker safety issues, OSHA or Channel 9 news is foaming at the mouth to stand up for you.ok. If you are willing to believe that a goverent agency and an entertainment "news" channel is willing to stick up for you more so than looking after their own self interests, I have a bridge to sell you that runs between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
RIP Gene. You are a good friend that will be missed. I'm Gene Bazyl Bitch!!
I'm proud of you for being special by working your ass off. I can say the same for the company that I work with. Myself recieving 10% above scale (by my own negotiation) must mean that I'm not as valuable to the company that I work with as you are. Damn
Forget OSHO or Channel 9. If your ladder is unsafe, fix it, buy a new one, or do something about it instead of whining like a baby. One reason I got recruited by several client companies and colleagues in the middle of this "job recession" is because I work my ass off and take some initiative when things need to get done. I don't wait for some union boss or someone else to fix everything; I do it myself. If we need new training, I write it and implement it. If we need additional resources, I write the proposal and make my case for it. There is a reason the only way these union employees get anything is through threats and harassment - if they were actually decent workers, they would already be getting what they want.
That's the point - it is in their interest to stick up for you. First off OSHA gets it's funding through finding workplace violations and the fines associated with them. They have a profit motive to stick up for you - and non union people as well.
Same with the "news" channel. They are always looking for the next smoking gun to plaster across the 10pm news. If there's something wrong in a workplace, it's worth ratings to them to broadcast it.
So, if your complaints are founded, there are agencies and people in place to stick up for the common man. If you're just a complainer, then life is just rough.
(and when I say "you", I'm using the term in general with regard to the debate and not intended as any personal attack or accusation. Since I've never met you, I have no idea about you or your work ethic etc...)
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If you negotiated your pay, what is the problem? Did your union negotiate for you? How is it that you feel less valuable if you are getting paid better than your colleagues?
+1
(and when I say "you", I'm using the term in general with regard to the debate and not intended as any personal attack or accusation. Since I've never met you, I have no idea about you or your work ethic etc...
All of which do not require a union, union dues or union "management". We will never see eye-to-eye on unions Canuck. It comes down to an understanding of one's own power and "marketability", unions take that away from the individual and ensconce it in the "collective". Then they extort businesses under threats of shutting them down. If I did that I would go to jail, but if a union does it it's called "collective bargaining".
The facts are that union members, specifically public sector union members are bankrupting state and local governments, for no quantifiable benefit. Is there increased productivity by having wages and benefits twice that of private sector workers? No. Is there increased efficiency? Go to the DMV and let me know.
If, and it's in the realm of fantasy "ifs", unions provided businesses with increased productivity, efficiency and better products, they would be falling over themselves to get one. The dwindling power and membership is clear evidence that they bring nothing to the table but higher costs, insanely ridiculous demands/workplace rules and breed an "us-vs-them" mentality.
"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...
"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."
-Franklin D. Roosevelt 1937
Shea
Now bikeless...
Seems kind of anti-union to me and maybe a little too "free market". How can you be all for one and one for all if you're going behind the backs of the "all" and negotiating a higher wage? Where's the collective?
If you negotiated your pay, what is the problem? Did your union negotiate for you? How is it that you feel less valuable if you are getting paid better than your colleagues?
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What's wrong with negotiating a higher wage if you've earned it? Who said it was "all about the collective and damn the higher achievers"? If I worked in a union I would do as little as f'n possible to keep my job, because there would be zero incentive to do otherwise - I'd still get raises and promotions just as much as the other guy, because it's "all for one".
Asshole Nazi devil moderator out to get each and every one of you
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous
than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
disce quasi semper victurus vive quasi cras moriturus
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Then what you are saying is that you are essentially a lazy slug who needs constant supervision? Why would you be any different in the non union sector.
There are these people in unions, there are also many more proud members that take their jobs seriously. The problem with most unions is not the rank and file, it is the leadership and failure to change with the times.
It's not going behind the backs of my fellow members. How is it immoral to negotiate a higher wage package than what I'm contractually set to receive. The Collective Bargaining bit is a basic standard that, given certain criteria is met, the employer cannot go below that for said worker.
I'm in a skilled trade. My skills are in demand and I am paid (quite well in fact) for them. This is pretty typical in the trade unions. They set a minimum with pay and benefits, if the standards are met by the worker. If the worker can bargain go a higher package, more power to him/her. I know a few guys that get a lot more than I do, but you know what...they deserve it.
There are plenty of non-union "techs" that I run into everyday, whether it's at the supply houses or repairing their fuck ups on the job sites, that don't have a clue in doing my trade. The biggest asset that my union can offer to the contractors is education and training. We are way above par conpaired to most of the non-union side with knowlege and efficiency. That alone makes us more valuable than a non-union shop can dream of. My contractor can leave out of our local and break contract. He hasn't and won't. What does that say?
You and every other union worker.
No, I work my ass off. But there is a difference between taking my job seriously vs going well above and beyond, and most people will only do the latter if there's a point to doing it.
The tone is set from the top down, and if there's no point to setting yourself apart through achievement then most aren't going to bother. Sorry if you took my response as some sort of "union people suck" comment, but that wasn't what I was saying. I agree that most of the problems with the unions surrounds the leadership, but that's also why nothing is going to change without force.
Asshole Nazi devil moderator out to get each and every one of you
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous
than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
disce quasi semper victurus vive quasi cras moriturus
The return of MRA #321! Sponsored by Western Ambulance, Chicane Trackdays, and a very patient wife...
God damn that bitch is annoying.
Excellent insight Rob. Tell us how you really feel.
The Plutocracy is taking over. It's the late 19th century all over again.
Oh I love it...
The right is always screaming about the distribution of wealth and how the left wants to bring everyone down into serfdom... Punish those who work and save, take their money and give it to those too lazy to do so for themselves.
The left is always screaming about the raping of our country by the right in order to retain wealth and power... The big bad corporations and 12 old white guys control all the money! We must take it and redistribute the wealth so everyone is equal.
Meanwhile, our ELECTED GOVERNMENT is busy stealing our money and laughing all the way to the bank. They don't care about left or right. It's two sides of the same coin. And until our country as a whole realizes that there's more to life the red and blue, they will continue to take from us all. So please, return to your happy little bitch fest. It's been a while since we've had a completely pointless drama filled thread on the CSC.
As long as your busy squabbling amongst yourselves, they can be left to do so as they please.
Do not put off living the life you dream of. Next year may never come. If we are always waiting for something to change...
Retirement, the kids to leave home, the weather or the economy, that's not living. That's waiting!
Waiting will only leaves us with unrealized dreams and empty wishes.
^ +1. But sadly this country is full of Ideologues and I don't see it changing.
I have my opinions on the issue....and I'm pretty sure you know what they areThat bitch is still annoying.
So all these greedy union members agreed to give into all the governors economic demands and still he wants to remove collective bargaining. You guys don't even seem to be debating the real issues.
I thought that 'bitch' was Keith Olberman in drag.
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