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Thread: New World Championship!?

  1. #1
    Member edj's Avatar
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    New World Championship!?

    As a motogp hater, this email from a friend in Italy was a breath of fresh air...

    Here is a summary of the content of the meeting as broadcasted today
    --------------- GP bikes aren't dead --------------------------------

    The championship has already been approved by UEM (European Motorcycle Union) and will start in 2012. The intent of the workshop was to introduce the championship, its reasons, its spirit and to discuss the rules.

    The general philosophy of the whole event was well sumarized by the cell phone interview with Jan Thiel. He said that: once, the world championship was the research, the cutting edge technology, and road going vehicles would eventually benefit from the discovers made for the competition engines. Nowadays, the reverse happens, the motoGP is sort of a make championship made of vehicles that are derived from the production vehicles, choked by a myriad of rules that prevent anything to be done. No technology innovation, ridiculous specific power, etc. etc. [we all know what he's talking about so no need to detail this].

    So the spirit of this new championship is to take over things where they
    were killed 20 years ago, and restart/continue innovation.
    Hence, the basic rule is: no rules.

    More in detail, the rules:

    - displacement: 50/125/250 cc
    (as opposed to 4strokes oversize "bigger is better" low power
    philosophy, let's restart with small displacement but high power)
    (a 500 cc class may be added in following years)

    - free number of cylinders

    - free type of engine (it's not a championship reserved to two-strokes,
    you are free to participate with a Diesel, a 4T, a Wankel, whatever,
    if you are able to get enough power out of it)

    - free choice of fuel with a bonus for those who use politically correct
    bio-fuels (bonus in the form of "points" affecting the ranking)

    - free choice of tire size

    - free number of speeds in the gearbox, and free transmissions
    (a gear shifter box isn't actually required, you can use CVT
    or whatever else solution you can invent)

    - supercharging allowed, free pressure

    - free electronics with only two limitations:
    -- _NO_ drive-by-wire
    -- _NO_ GPS assisted traction control etc.

    - free choice of construction materials, except those harming health
    like Asbetos, Berillium, etc.

    - noise level must be <= 97 db
    (measured at 10 m distance, vehicle passing by full speed)

    - free lube and lube system

    - cooling: only water allowed

    - free aerodynamics, within general FIM guidelines

    - dimensions, same as per FIM rules

    - the rules are made so that you are also free to take part into
    competitions with old race bikes (hopefully restored and tuned)

    Then, rules for limiting costs:

    - each team may have a maximum of 2 bikes for each driver

    - each team may be made of maximum 5 persons

    And finally:

    - no age limitations for drivers, no forcing of a class change.
    If you love a class, you can race in that class all your life long.

    This last statement has to do with another aspect of the championship
    philosophy, that was equally remarked by both Jan Thiel and the other
    organizers, that is to make bike racing a sport again, to revalue the human
    aspects and to reduce the "show-business" side at a minimum.
    To give young drivers time and chance to grow a drivers career, and not to trash them if they don't become a superstar in the first season.
    To have the different teams friends with each other, and normal people able to access the paddocks and have a talk with drivers and mechanics.
    To NOT have the best part of the paddocks reserved to the bigger
    displacement and television, and the minor classes confined to the back, but to have everything mixed together like it was in the old good times when motorbike competitions were a sport in the real sense of the word.

  2. #2
    Senior Member vort3xr6's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Meh. Sounds way too open ended to actually work. Because winning a championship is a coveted accomplishment, teams will use these rules and exploit whatever they can to win.

    Free choice of tire size? Free choice of construction materials? Basically, the team with the most money wins.

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    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    It'll be a novelty at best. And, the MotoGP bikes are, by the rules, prototypes, no production parts are allowed. He can hate MotoGP all he wants, he's vastly in the minority, so whatever floats his boat. Usually, it's kick-ass racing, dunno what he expects.....

    Have him try following F-USA here in the states if they're still running that. The rules there used to be extremely open, anything from NOS equipped Grand Prix 250's, to Gixxer 7-11's.
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    "...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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    Member Graphite675's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    He can hate MotoGP all he wants, he's vastly in the minority

    Agreed. I still enjoy MotoGP. If anything needs to change it's the AMA/DMG fiasco that we have here in the states.

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    Senior Member brennahm's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    I think there's a discussion to be started somewhere in there about the role of racing. Basically, whether it's main purpose is to entertain the fans/enthusiasts or to further technological advancement; is close racing important; things like that. I think we have multiple series (MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA) that serve different purposes (not commenting on how WELL each does it's job, only that they hold different ideals to be paramount).

    Also, to be fair Frank, MotoGP encompasses the Moto 2 series which run spec motors directly derived from CBR600RR motors.

  6. #6
    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by brennahm View Post
    I think there's a discussion to be started somewhere in there about the role of racing. Basically, whether it's main purpose is to entertain the fans/enthusiasts or to further technological advancement; is close racing important; things like that. I think we have multiple series (MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA) that serve different purposes (not commenting on how WELL each does it's job, only that they hold different ideals to be paramount).

    Also, to be fair Frank, MotoGP encompasses the Moto 2 series which run spec motors directly derived from CBR600RR motors.
    ...and also the 125cc 2-strokes.

    My problem with the Moto2 series is that I do NOT believe it should be a spec motor series. ALL the manufacturers should be able to field 600cc motors, not just Honda, and maybe even do a sliding weight/restrictor plate ruleset that allows the Triumph 675 run along with the Ducati 848. Now THAT would be a good series! Actually, the racing in Moto2 is TOO close, leading to "NASCRAP-style" pileups, and I believe led to the death of that one Japanese rider last year because he got hit twice because everyone was so bunched together.

    One thing we can ALL agree with is.......the AMA/DMG sux ass!
    Last edited by CYCLE_MONKEY; Sun Apr 3rd, 2011 at 06:17 PM.
    --------------------------------------------------
    "...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

    -Theodore Roosevelt 1907
    --------------------------------------------------
    Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
    --------------------------------------------------
    Tokin' SortaTalian
    (Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)

  7. #7
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

    When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

    And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

    So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.

  8. #8
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    ... I must admit though that the bit about 'politically correct' fuels altering scoring seems lame.

  9. #9
    Senior Member vort3xr6's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

    When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

    And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

    So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.

    Compared to Moto2, the 250cc's were a BORE. Moto2 is a great series, with big developments in chassis, swingarm setup. Plus it allows privateers to afford it, thus the reason why Moto2 has such a big grid. Good riddance 250cc.

  10. #10
    Senior Member brennahm's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    I thought the purpose was to advance technology? And your ridiculing traction control...

    /antagonism

  11. #11
    Senior Member longrider's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    To me the whole rider aid technology issue is completely separate from the engine and modification rules. You can put ride by wire just as easily on a 2 stroke. The engine change was politically driven, and now the rules are being done to control costs so there can be more than 12 bikes on the grid.

    Regarding the cost issue, it has been said that the dramatic decline in amateur motocross is more due to the cost of racing a 4 stroke than anything to do with the economy or kids today not being into active sports

  12. #12
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    The only reason that 250s were expensive to campaign is that Aprilia no longer had competition and charged based on their monopoly. Their fault? Or the fault of other manufacturers dropping 250? A heaver bike with more cylinders and valves and parts and complexities costs more to build and more to maintain ... how can that be cheaper? Something doesn't add up. I doubt that replacing 2stroke 125s with 4stroke 250s will make things any cheaper either. But this isn't about the pinnacle of racing technologies or about making the sport more affordable... this is about selling street bikes. A used late model TZ250 for under $20,000 would spank one of these inexpensive eu400,000 600s.

    The Moto2 racing may be exciting... but that excitement is derived from having everybody having the same specs not from the actual specs themselves. That keeps it close but can also lead to monotony. Honda could have given everybody street NSR250 motors from 15 years ago for a LOT less money and the bikes would be more exciting than these 600s. I would prefer to see people on DIFFERENT bikes that have different advantages and disadvantages. That is a matter of taste... that is why there are different classes. So why are they trying to make all the classes sorta the same?

    I am really surprised everybody isn't EXCITED about this new championship. What if this went back to the wild 60s where you'd see 6 cylinder 150s (or tinier!) using engineering that would put modern Honda to shame. That would be fun.

  13. #13
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by brennahm View Post
    I thought the purpose was to advance technology? And your ridiculing traction control...

    /antagonism
    The bikes would surely go faster if we got rid of the riders altogether. I KNOW Honda has the technology for that. There is probably technology that would allow your cat to ride at gp speeds with his eyes closed. There is advancing motorcycle technology. And there is advancing software tech. I draw the line at when the software starts doing the riders job. You lack throttle control? We can fix that... just hold it WOT like you would on your gameboy and the software will do the rest. Who needs talent anymore.... singers don't. why should racers?

    /hyberbolism

  14. #14
    Senior Member CaptGoodvibes's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    I can't find anything on the UEM website or FB page about this. Linky?

  15. #15
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    It was posted to the gammalist, summarized by Franco from Italy (who is manufacturing new aftermarket RG500 motor parts). I would be very sad if it was April fool ... but Franco has no sense of humor so it seems unlikely.

    A google shows this same information posted on advriders, motorcycleaddicts, 2stroker, fzronline forums... but it all seems to be the same exact post from Franco and his post to gammalist predates all those.

    Ah... here is the official pdf for the workshop that the post summarizes...
    http://www.rscycles.com/news/2_Strok...ampionship.pdf
    I presume official announcements will be made.
    Last edited by edj; Mon Apr 4th, 2011 at 02:21 PM. Reason: new info

  16. #16
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    btw, all the people posting in those other forums are actually excited. It seems I am NOT in the minority after all. Makes me wonder what is wrong with you colorado "sport" bikers.

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    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Oh I dunno, it'll be fun to bring back the 500cc two stroke widomakers with evil handling leading to head shakes and dramatic high sides.

    Electronic traction aids certainly have made GP bikes tamer.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member CaptGoodvibes's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    btw, all the people posting in those other forums are actually excited. It seems I am NOT in the minority after all. Makes me wonder what is wrong with you colorado "sport" bikers.
    Haha! Well, in a thread with 18 posts, 7 of them yours, I don't think you have a large enough sampling of "Colorado" but whatever. As a technical type, I want more info s'all...

  19. #19
    Senior Member brennahm's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    I just always viewed racing as advertising that we enthusiasts benefitted from. If it's not "advertising" then it's got very little value to those who promote and you end up with a grassroots program, something I'm very fond of.

    No company (OEM) wants to advertise a product they can't sell. Certainly you're not proposing the manufacture of 2 strokes for the street (as cool as that would be)?

    I can't see an open, world series of unmarketable bikes.

    Best of luck to them nonetheless.

  20. #20
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    Oh I dunno, it'll be fun to bring back the 500cc two stroke widomakers with evil handling leading to head shakes and dramatic high sides.

    Electronic traction aids certainly have made GP bikes tamer.
    The 500s were pretty tamed down (ie broader power band) by the end.

    As a 500 2 stroke rider... I've never had head shake and have only high-sided a 250 though come close on the 500 a few times... you can usually escape anything it handles 'mayhem' so well at 350 pounds fully wet. Don't blame the 'class' for the 80s handling and tires of the era.

  21. #21
    Member edj's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by brennahm View Post
    No company (OEM) wants to advertise a product they can't sell. Certainly you're not proposing the manufacture of 2 strokes for the street (as cool as that would be)?

    I can't see an open, world series of unmarketable bikes.
    Unmarketable? Anything 2stroke sells for big money. Search TZR RGV NSR RG NS RS... all hugely popular all over the world and appreciating in value like wild fire. People want two strokes because they are very good at moving motorcycles quickly with minimal weight.... = FUN. Nothing beats that zip. And easy to maintain too Clean tech also exists (search aprilia oil encapsulation) if that is your concern. But the MANUFACTURERS would rather sell you something that is more complicated, bigger and costs more. v-tec and all that sorta bs. If I set you on my RG500 for 10 minutes on peak-to-peak highway you would come back with a smile wider than your helmet ... its 25 pounds lighter than a NEW Ninja 250 and more powerful than a NEW 600 (if properly tuned more than new 750). An irresistable formula. They sell themselves... if only someone would LET them.

    There is always demand for the lightest most powerful motorcycles possible. Or else you wouldn't have people STILL make V4 500's to sell for eu50,000+ that will destroy a Motogp bike (in a motogp chassis).

  22. #22
    Senior Member vort3xr6's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    I agree the MotoGP has turned into quite the parade race in the last few years, but I don't think the race series above solves ANY of those issues. I am not excited about it because it doesn't sound exciting!

    Let's go through it again.

    - displacement: 50/125/250 cc
    The only way you are going to make this exciting is on a shorter track and/or 2 strokes. If you honestly think the racing community is going to get hard over a 50cc 4 stroke race at Mugello, you are crazy. I would rather watch segway's race.

    - free number of cylinders
    - free type of engine (it's not a championship reserved to two-strokes,
    you are free to participate with a Diesel, a 4T, a Wankel, whatever,
    if you are able to get enough power out of it)

    The only way you will be able to get ANY power out of that size motor is by 2 stroke. There would be no other configuration that could rival the power/weight. So free type of engine config is out the door.

    - free choice of fuel with a bonus for those who use politically correct
    bio-fuels (bonus in the form of "points" affecting the ranking)
    :handjerkmotion. Once again, in order to win, everybody will run the best fuel possible.

    - free choice of tire size
    - free number of speeds in the gearbox, and free transmissions
    (a gear shifter box isn't actually required, you can use CVT
    or whatever else solution you can invent)
    AGAIN, the obvious choice will be the one that we already use. The one that works. A CVT wouldn't stand a chance against a 6 speed quick shifter on 250 cc 2 stroke.

    - supercharging allowed, free pressure
    Wow. Now its just getting outlandish.

    - free electronics with only two limitations:
    -- _NO_ drive-by-wire
    -- _NO_ GPS assisted traction control etc.
    Let us reverse innovation in favor for.....? Spectacular crashes at the expense of rider safety?

    - free choice of construction materials, except those harming health
    like Asbetos, Berillium, etc.
    This is where the money will separate the team. The person who can buy the most unobtanium wins. Why do you think SBK's have a minimum weight limit?

    - noise level must be <= 97 db
    (measured at 10 m distance, vehicle passing by full speed)
    Forget about a 2 stroke then! lol. Keep in mind a Hair Dryer at 5 feet is 90 dB. So now you are promoting a 50/125/250 4 stroke series with bikes barely louder than a hair dryer at WOT. Sounds like a hoot.

    - free lube and lube system
    - cooling: only water allowed
    - free aerodynamics, within general FIM guidelines
    - dimensions, same as per FIM rules

    Are these just fillers? This series is a joke. The Rocky Mountain Mini Moto club has more innovation and better racing than the above series.

    Us "Colorado" sport bikers know that crap like this doesn't work. Look at club racing, it is just as exciting as some pro race series but still gets little sponsorship support. It's your fault if you think success will come from some hack series that tries to do what every other series stopped doing because it didn't work.
    Last edited by vort3xr6; Mon Apr 4th, 2011 at 03:33 PM.

  23. #23
    Senior Member vort3xr6's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    A world champion race bike should use a high density power plant and not oversized low density power. Powerful AND light = awesome racing. That seems to be the gist of this new championship. Ironically this will HELP privateers... it is a lot cheaper to run 2strokes as they are naturally light and fast and don't need insane tech to be so. 4 strokes only took over racing because of rules specifically rigged to make them competitive.

    When I watch motogp... am I seeing great riders battling it out? Or am I seeing amazing software in action? GPS traction control? Yuck. Traction control should be located in the drivers brain (or balls). Am I seeing the best that motorcycle technology has to offer? Or am I seeing a overweight oversized marketing tool whose power-to-weight-ratio is barely better than a 25 year old gp bike.

    And now the 250s are gone. Yawn. They were way more fun to watch than the big 4strokes. If I wanted to watch 600 streetish bikes I could already do that. I still don't. 125s are gone in 2012.

    So you guys can hate me ... but I didn't create this championship... lots of people think like I do. And I am excited that they are DOING something. Honda killed the *sport*. Enthusiasts are reviving it.
    wow. I couldn't let you get away with this one.

    4 strokes took over racing in order to accurately reflect production / demand trends in the market. Why race bikes that nobody wanted to buy? 2 stroke technology has reached the peak of innovation, whereas 4 stroke technology is just beginning to advance. (see BMW S1000RR). Ever heard of the cross plane crank? Or ABS? Or Traction Control on the street? Those came from MotoGP testing and innovations.

    The riders in MotoGP are still the best of the best. I don't care how much traction control, or active suspension adjustments they have, you cannot deny that Rossi, Lorenzo, Spies, Stoner, etc are all the best riders in the world.

    Oversized marketing tool?!? The weight of the 2010 Yamaha YZR-M1 was 331lbs, with BRAKE horsepower right at 240. Thus, giving it a power to weight ratio of .72 hp/lb

    Your precious NSR 500 had a hp number roughly around 150, weighing in at 262 lbs DRY. You are looking at MAYBE a .56 hp/lb.

    Either way you look at it, you are wrong.

  24. #24
    Senior Member brennahm's Avatar
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    Re: New World Championship!?

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    Unmarketable? Blah, blah, blah...used bikes.
    Sorry, but OEM's and the motorcycle industry as a whole is always focused on the next thing. Unmarketable? Yes, see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    And easy to maintain too Clean tech also exists (search aprilia oil encapsulation) if that is your concern.
    I did not say anything about ease of maintenance or the availability of clean two stroke technology, if I'm not mistaken the boating industry has progressed in the last 10 years by leaps and bounds. But even there, not enough to supplant 4 strokes entirely. My concern is getting a 2 stroke bike certified for sale for the street since that's where the money is. I'm not saying they shouldn't be, just that they won't be.

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    v-tec and all that sorta bs
    I thought you were for technical innovation? What's wrong with VTec other than it's on a 4 stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    If I set you on my RG500 for 10 minutes on peak-to-peak highway you would come back with a smile wider than your helmet
    I have no doubt. I enjoyed my RD350 thoroughly.

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    But the MANUFACTURERS would rather sell you something that is more complicated, bigger and costs more...They sell themselves... if only someone would LET them.
    The manufacturers would rather sell me something I'm allowed to buy. Don't blame them entirely for what's available.

    Quote Originally Posted by edj View Post
    There is always demand for the lightest most powerful motorcycles possible.
    Most powerful, sure. But you need to specify how much of the equation belongs to "lightest" and how much to "most powerful".

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