Home defense legality question.

[merlin]

So, I was standing on my porch this afternoon talking to one of my neighbors that had an attempted break in last night.

It seems that a couple of guys climbed up onto her porch (she lives on the second floor) and tried to come in through her sliding glass door. He husband woke up and managed to run the guys off, but it brought to mind a question:

Like the neighbor, I have a porch with sliding glass doors going into the living room and bedroom. This porch has a railing across the front of it, making it somewhat "enclosed". My question- is this area considered part of my home? If I wake up some night and see someone standing on the porch looking through the door at me, do I have to wait for him to break the door or show a weapon before I can legally react to the threat?

Just curious - there have been a couple of broad daylight home invasions around here the last couple weeks, and my wife is home alone all day.

Thanks!
Merlyn

[RCStylin']

It depends on the jury that interprets that threat. In my concealed carry class we heard of lots of scenarios and how they ended up in court. In one case that happened in Denver, an old man shot through the door because he was scared that the man trying to beat down the door, would overpower him and he might "miss" once the guy got inside. He got off. Too bad the man was just drunk and thought he was beating down his own door. He lived one block away.

In the law class I took, if I learned anything at all, I learned that the law is up to the jury. There is no real carte blanche for anything.

[TurboGizzmo]

From what I've read they have to be inside the threshold. I cant remember the case but it involved someone drunk thinking it was his house and because he was completely inside the house the fact he was shot was legal......at least this is what i remember......

[rforsythe]

Sketchy case. A key test is whether you feared for your life for good reason, but someone just standing outside may not rise to that level. Now, if they come in the door or have a weapon, I think it's a much easier decision.

Whether they should be there or not, are you willing to take a life based on an unknown threat of someone standing outside? If you are, you better truly fear for your life and be ready to defend that position.

[D Berns R6]

CRS 18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

and a porch is not considered your dwelling because a dwelling is a building which is used, intended to be used, or usually used by a person for habitation (however an attached garage is part of a dwelling)

[ndnbennyb]

Doing what I do, and what I have read, you can brandish your fire arm from in the home to show force. The person has to pass the threshold in order for you to fall under the "make my day" law and shoot them leglly. With that bein said, you must feel that your life or the people who are in your home life's are threatened with grevious bodily harm or death. You can't legally go outside and shoot them. Brandishing your fire arm out doors is questionable. The best way to figure that out is to read the CRS (Colorado Revised Statute) on deadly force and the "castle" or "make my day" law. I hope that helps. If not, let me know and I can find it for you to read. Also check with your local authorities. They are more than willing to inform people of when they can and how to protect themelves. I reccomend, if not already done, for everyone to have a concealed carry permit. I have one.

[TinkerinWstuff]

...cuz these guys on the internet said I could shoot...


http://www.profireusa.com/index.html

[wulf]

Merlin, avoid shooting. My home is my castle and all but when you have to sell it to pay the lawyer fees you'll change your mind.

If you wife is of smaller stature than the perpetrator then the unarmed man has a weapon in his superior size and physical stature.



"Under Colorado law, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using deadly physical force against another person when that person has unlawfully entered the dwelling and the occupant reasonably believes that the person has committed or is committing or intends to commit a crime and the occupant reasonably believes that person might use any physical force, no matter how slight against any occupant. This is commonly known as the “make my day” law and any person who fits the above definition is immune from criminal prosecution."

There are multiple cases of precedence to uhhh adjust the meaning of that.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...08/detail.html

Denver prosecutors will not charge a 62-year-old grandfather initially arrested in a weekend killing, saying Filberto Alderete acted in self-defense when he shot a man trying to forcefully enter his home.It appears Alderete fired one or two warning shots before shooting 36-year-old Jesus Sifuentes Jr. during the confrontation on his porch early Sunday morning, said district attorney spokeswoman Lynn Kimbrough.Prosecutors decided the shooting was justified under Colorado self-defense and "Make My Day" laws, Kimbrough said. The "Make My Day" law states that a home occupant is "justified in using any degree of physical force" against an unlawful intruder if he reasonably believes the person "might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant."Alderete, who was arrested Sunday on investigation of first-degree murder, was released from jail Monday, Kimbrough said.The deadly shooting occurred as a group of people was involved in an altercation outside Alderete's duplex at 3436 West 18th Ave. about 12:35 a.m. Sunday, authorities said.Neighbors told 7NEWS that Alderete, a Vietnam veteran, had been repeatedly harassed by neighborhood gang members. They said that a group of men armed with knives and bats were milling around outside the Alderete home just before the shooting. Kimbrough said the investigation showed that "Mr. Sifuentes was the only person who went up on the porch." "Mr. Sifuentes was in the process of unlawfully gaining entry into the home when he was shot and killed by the homeowner," Kimbrough said. Sifuentes died from a gunshot wound to the torso, the Denver medical examiner said.

The case RC and turbo were referring to.
http://www.coloradoconnection.com/ne...aspx?id=252001

COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO. -- On Tuesday, El Paso County District Attorney Dan May released details of the incident that caused the death of Sean Kennedy, 22, on Dec. 28, 2008, and his decision not to prosecute the shooter.
According to information from May's office, on Dec. 28, 2008, just before 10 p.m., Colorado Springs police officers were dispatched to 3212 Virginia Avenue regarding a burglary in progress. As officers arrived, they were advised that shots had been fired.
Officers found Kennedy lying in the back yard near the back door of the residence. He was pronounced dead at the scene. An autopsy at the El Paso County Coroner's Office later determined that Kennedy died from two gunshot wounds.
Detectives from the Colorado Springs Police Department's Violent Crimes Unit were dispatched and conducted a thorough investigation of the shooting.
The investigation revealed that at about 9:45 p.m. on Dec. 28, James Parsons was at home with his girlfriend when he saw a white GMC pickup truck drive up and park in front of his house, a small ranch-style home.
According to May, Parsons saw an unknown male get out of the truck and approach his front door. Two dogs belonging to the resident, including a German Shepherd, started barking loudly and continually as Kennedy began forcefully pounding and beating on the front door. He was yelling obscenities and appeared to be angry and upset. Kennedy continued to beat and pound on the door, during which time Parsons told his girlfriend to call 911, and he went into the bedroom to get his gun, a revolver.
After several minutes Parsons and his girlfriend saw Kennedy run around to the back door where Kennedy broke the lock on the back screen door, pulled open the screen door and began beating his fist on the back door. Still yelling obscenities, Kennedy then broke out the pane of glass in the back door and began to undo the deadbolt when Parsons fired his revolver three times.
Physical evidence at the scene, witness statements and the 911 dispatch tape corroborated the statements of Parsons and his girlfriend.
At the beginning of the dispatch tape, the Parsons' girlfriend was heard saying "someone's trying to get in the house" and telling the dispatcher to "hurry up, he's trying to get in the house!" The Parsons' girlfriend was on the phone with a police dispatcher for nearly 4-1/2 minutes while the unknown male was trying to get into the home. She was then heard saying "Oh my God, he's coming in the back door!" and then "Are they on their way, because oh my God, he broke in the glass!" followed by the sound of gunshots.
May said both Parsons and his girlfriend immediately sought medical attention for Kennedy.
The investigation also revealed Kennedy lived at the same street address, one street west of Virginia Avenue, with several roommates.
According to witness statements, Kennedy had been drinking alcohol with friends at a local golf course just prior to this incident. His blood alcohol level at autopsy was .261 gm/dl, more than three times the legal driving limit.
Under Colorado Revised Statute section 18-1-704.5 the Colorado General Assembly "recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes."
This law provides that any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person intends to commit a crime or use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
Based upon the evidence and a review of Colorado law governing the use of deadly physical force against an intruder, it is the opinion of the District Attorney's Office that James Parsons did not violate Colorado law, and he will not be prosecuted.

[FZRguy]

I agree with the DA in both cases.

[merlin]

Great information- thanks, guys.

Now I know- someone climbs the rail and is standing on the porch is safe. Shame on his ass if he tries to come in- but only if he tries to come in, or produces a weapon and aims into the apartment.

After 2 home invasions in the last 3 weeks in this complex, I have to think about things like that. Which sucks, but that's the reality of this day and age, I suppose.

Merlyn

[stubbicatt]

My suggestion is if you can safely leave the place, leave and call the cops. If you have homeowner's insurance, they can replace anything he takes or damages.

If you cannot leave then you have to do what you must.

[puckstr]

Get Firearm
Wait untill they FULLY enter your dwelling
Clean up Isle six

[rforsythe]

Yep. That said, I believe that if they're pointing a gun at you through the window, regular self defense rules still apply.

[MetaLord 9]

Drag their ass inside. Call 911.

[puckstr]

Drag their ass inside. Call 911.

That's is what I was told by the PO PO in Georgia

[modette99]

I think I just call the police if they are standing on my porch. Maybe be ready for anything...but police be called first not to mention yelling "I got a Gun". They probably just move on at that point.

Also you should secure your sliding door if they are getting into peoples places that way, tells me that door design is easy to pick.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...LAID=109382810

[CaptGoodvibes]

and a porch is not considered your dwelling because a dwelling is a building which is used, intended to be used, or usually used by a person for habitation (however an attached garage is part of a dwelling)

In my CHL class, we were taught that an attached garage is definitely NOT a part of the dwelling. YMMV

[Sully]

Great information- thanks, guys.

Now I know- someone climbs the rail and is standing on the porch is safe. Shame on his ass if he tries to come in- but only if he tries to come in, or produces a weapon and aims into the apartment.

After 2 home invasions in the last 3 weeks in this complex, I have to think about things like that. Which sucks, but that's the reality of this day and age, I suppose.

Merlyn

Wrap your balcony railing with barbed wired!

[Vitesse304]

It doesn't matter if it's a part of your dwelling or not.

Colorado law allows an individual to defend his or her life with appropriate force. If you feel that the person on your porch was threatening your life, then an equivelent amount of force is allowable to defend yourself.

Legally, you won't have a leg to stand on. Unless that person was pointing a gun or other weapon at you, you can't shoot them. (He's here to rob you, not kill you) You'd even have a hard time proving his intent if he was in your house without a weapon.

Belongings are replaceable, that's what insurance is for. Lethal force is tough to claim when someone is not looking to harm you. And defending your property (even with Colorado's castle law) is hard to justify lethal force.

Plus, with the cost of a lawyer, and the civil suit that will surely follow, it's not worth it. (deceased's family coming after you for civil damages, the castle doctrine and self defense do not protect you from civil charges.)

It's best to fortify your sliding door, and do what you can to ensure that it's hard to get in. That's about it. I'm all for self defense and protecting your family and belongings, but you have to rationalize everything that will happen after. This doesn't mean that if you are in danger, not to act, but considering you are posting this on a forum asking for advise, the prosecution can claim pre-meditation and that you considered killing this indivudual even before he entered your home. A fanatasy if you will of killing someone entering your home and incorrectly interpreting the castle doctrine.

[TinkerinWstuff]

I just love how the CO media has branded this law "Make my Day" when in reality it's Castle Doctrine.

Castle Doctrine doesn't sound scary enough I guess.

Make my Day is the term for not having a duty to attempt to flee when on the street.

[Kim-n-Dean]

Either way, buy this, and you'll be set. You can shoot 'em through a brick wall, if ya want.

[TFOGGuys]

Wrap your balcony railing with barbed wired!

I was thinking "decorative planters full of cacti" bolted to the railing...

[crypto0793]

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco...d_statutes.htm

Here is the revised statute for the Castle Doctrine.(Make my day)

These three word will keep you from getting into trouble "Opportunity Capability and Intent"

Meaning does the agressor have the opportunity if he is in you home then yes.

Does the agressor have the capability I.E. weapon? most of the time you dont know unless you see it. Authough Hands can be considered weapons. so its assumed he does

Does the agressor have the intent to do harm to you or anyone in your home? if he is caught in the act you never know what will happen , it comes down to how you perceive the situation

[Finklestein87]

Get Firearm
Wait untill they FULLY enter your dwelling
Clean up Isle six