General rule of thumb: Wanna learn? Befriend an older, experienced sportbike rider who wears the proper gear.Buy him lots of good food and post-ride beers. If you're willing to learn, you'll learn tons of relevant street riding lessons learned over many years in a short time. And the old guy gets a good meal and some beers out of the deal. WINNING!
Last edited by CYCLE_MONKEY; Thu Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:40 AM.
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"...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
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Tokin' SortaTalian
(Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)
^^^ out of food stamps again Frank?
MRA Racer No.427
Damn! Busted!Originally Posted by Snowman
But seriously, when/where I started riding, there was no older sportbike riders, just some Hardley types and the occasional guy on a Beemer. So, I ended up riding with 2 other friends who got sportbikes right after I did, but they were squids, and did a bunch of stoopid stunts/stuff. I still rode with them, but never learned anything from either of them. and it was a lot less scary riding out in front of them or solo so they couldn't take me out if they did something stoopid (which they were prone to do). It wasn't until I came here that I found some good riders to ride with, and though I mostly ride solo, I've learned a lot from the canyons themselves, and the times I've had the pleasure of having experienced riders to ride with and especially show me the way on unfamiliar roads (like Deckers. etc.).
Like I said, befriend an old guy.......just avoid THIS one.....
Last edited by CYCLE_MONKEY; Thu Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:45 AM.
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"...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
-Theodore Roosevelt 1907
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Blu/Wht '01 Gixxer 1K, '91 KX500
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Tokin' SortaTalian
(Pronounced: Kind-A-Dago)
This is why I pointed out in my original post that it needed to be a RESPONSIBLE teacher. Running at "your normal pace" is not proper instruction. Its just ego and showing off if that pace is faster than the student is capable of. It does no one any good.
Only after a skill is mastered at the lower speed should more speed be added. Then only in small incriments until it is mastered at every level.
And how are they going to see where you brake, or where you turn if the student is in front of you? (going into the corner too fast on the wrong line and going to hurt themselves and all you can do is watch from behind).
Seriously, the point of being in front in this case is so that you can show them where to brake, where to turn and CONTROL the speed. I newer rider in front is going to try to go faster to "not hold you up" or try to do what they have not learned yet. This gets them in trouble.
Good instruction will involve both leading and following by the experienced rider. Start by leading with prior instruction on what you will be demonstrating, be it body positioning, lines, pace, etc. Then discuss what they saw and answer their questions. Then let them lead so that you can give them feedback. Repeat, focusing on things they need to improve.
I agree that the track is the best place to practice things like body positioning, braking and lines, i.e. the mechanics of riding. It eliminates some of the dangerous distractions of the street. IMI is great for this sort of thing. But there are things about being on the street that you need to master after becoming proficient at making the bike do what you need it to do, e.g. approaching intersections, moving through traffic, reading drivers and predicting what they are going to do, etc.
Dirk
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
In the end, there are many techniques on how to help a newbie, also depends on just how new the person is or what they are trying to accomplish.
The person helping though.... I do agree with several different posts, should be someone focused on how to help in the safest possible way.
The old "ride your own ride" is not helping when it comes to a newbie.
Exactly right. True newbies won't really know what "their" ride is. Best to find out in a measured, progressive way rather than sliding down the road.
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
We all just turned this into a typical CSC cluster f*ck.... apologies from my end....
What side of town do you live?
Yes. With nobody in front of me, I am just not sure what I can get away with, but with someone in front to copy(as long as they are not going too fast) I can relax and just work on my technique. I rode last year with a good buddy of mine, but he has moved out of the area since then. I got a few more riders on my block who are all less experienced and will come along and follow responsible leader.
Last edited by deadline; Fri Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:51 PM.
Superior... we were thinking of going to Estes Park this Friday afternoon.
Ahhh alright, weekends only for me.
Agree.
The fast guys don't ever need to brag about being fast. They just keep flying through the corners and outta sight...sometimes while looking back at you from their TLR...
Regarding learning style, it's different for different folks, but I've found it's usually best to have a noob go at a comfortable pace through a section with an experienced rider behind to gauge speed, comfort level, and be able to provide some tips to work on. Then the experienced rider can lead a speed in the noob's comfort zone to demonstrate the proper way to do things like how to hold your body, how to set your speed, the benefit of looking through corners, etc. **EDIT: Shoulda read Dirk's post first!***
Going through corners smoother will take you through the corners faster.
Oh and most of the folks who say they're fast on the CSC aren't.
Last edited by MetaLord 9; Thu Jun 2nd, 2011 at 02:11 PM.
[SIGPIC][SIGPIC]
Only down side to always following someone is that without them there, you get accustomed to following a person and not the road. With no one in front of you, you've got to rely entirely on yourself, so a lot of what you learn hits home
[SIGPIC][SIGPIC]
^+1
Besides, you shouldn't be going fast enough on the streets (especially with a noob) where lines and braking points make a difference.
Re: Experience Rider
Just want to add something to this. "The line" varies. A perfect line on a track corner is not going to be appropriate on a canyon corner. So some things can only be learned on the street.
Like how to take the line though a blind corner OT allow proper margin for error. (speed, lane position, etc).
Too many people treating the canyons like a racetrack! Typically, the faster they are going, the less "experience" they really have!
The noobs should all get schooled from the front and the back.
'09 Duc Monster 696
'00 Suz SV650 (Dad's, garaged with mine)
I like mountains because they make me feel small.
I remember leading and showing a new rider the lean angles you could safely achieve in the rain on OEM tires. While he was still hesitant to up the pace immediately, the next time was a different story.
There are a lot of "teachers" who will run off without you in traffic, and demonstrate a cardinal sin in instruction: impatience with themselves, others, and the student. Those who are mature enough to be comfortable with themselves and their skill level usually try a few different approaches to teach you.
Some of the approaches include:
1. Following you to understand your riding ability
2. Leading you to give you a close-up look
3. Feedback and advice-
i. "You can be a little quicker with your steering"
ii. "You can ride on the outside line before turning in"
iii. "You can set your entry speed by the way the corners look before you approach"
iv. "You can look a little more through the corners"
v. "You can keep your eyes in front of me, not on me"
vi. "You can relax, just push on the bars, and let your head move into the turn."
vii. "You can gently stand it up and use your brakes to re-set corner speed."
4. Suggest exercises for when the student is by themselves
i. Parking lot exercises
ii. Visual exercises
iii. Mental exercises
Hope we can see an improvement in the quality of "teachers" out there
Doc, riding IS my physical therapy.
The noobs should all get schooled from the front and the back.
Do not put off living the life you dream of. Next year may never come. If we are always waiting for something to change...
Retirement, the kids to leave home, the weather or the economy, that's not living. That's waiting!
Waiting will only leaves us with unrealized dreams and empty wishes.
Yes. That's why I said "lines" rather than "the line". Riders should understand how different lines through a corner affect what happens. The "fast" line through a corner isn't always what you want, even when racing. But I still think that the concepts can (and probably should) be taught and perfected on the track. Then when you get on the street, you've got the concepts down so that you can focus more CPU power on the other things that come at you on the street.
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
Everything you've said against following also applies to leading. In order to be a RESPONSIBLE teacher, you also need a RESPONSIBLE student. Leading doesn't change or prevent the student from crashing, it just changes your view of the crash. Il just say we'll agree to disagree.
/insert finklestein's comment here
Wow, there is LOTS of...information in this thread. Here's my $.02
1. Hands down, the best thing you can ever do, is go to the Chicane track day coming up. It's a controlled environment with TONS of great rider coaches. THe best money you will ever spend.
2. Any class is good. ABATE, T3RG or others are really good. I took one and it is well worth the time and energy. That way you know who is teaching you.
3. IMI is fine if you have a knowledgeable person with you. Be careful who you deem as "knowledgeable."
4. Canyons are not really safe to work on things with, there are to many variables. BUT, we have all worked on stuff in the canyons, because they are right there.
5. Pick and choose on online forums who you want to listen to. Including me. You have no idea who anybody is. When I was starting out I chose to listen to people who race and have single/double digits on their number plate. It served me fairly well.
I'm in Boulder/Broomfield and would be happy to go out with you sometime after work. I don't have a sportbike anymore, but I should be able to keep up on the roads in this area just fine.
Shut your mouth.
And before I forget...
Depends on what you want to work on. Riding at the track can help you work on alot of different things, but there are alot of things that we do that newer riders may not think of.
- Lane positioning to gain better visibility around corners
- tranferring weight on the bike without "hanging off"
- referrence points for street riding, as well as "lines"
these are things that don't necessarily come up in track oriented classes, but are skillsets that we use every time we ride and probably treat as second nature.
Dave, I agree that there are things you can work on. What I meant by "safe" is allowing for error (blowing a corner, tucking the front end), not worrying about conditions (gravel, sand, etc), not worrying about traffic (going as slow or fast as you want) and just being able to focus on one thing. I agree there are good things to learn and no matter what, we'll all use the canyons to learn things. Are canyons optimal, maybe not, but your right, they'll teach us stuff we probably won't get at the track.
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