Civil Disobedience..

[Spooph]

A cruiser friend of mine sent me this. I was reading it, and although I always wear my helmet, I do believe in personal choice.... However, I'm not posting this to start a "Helmet or No" thread....

http://scooternews.net/node/46

I WAS wondering what issues do sport bikes deal with more often on a weekly basis, which are similar to this, and is there a way we can fight those issues?

Right off the bat I can think of speeding, and wouldn't it be sweet if we can get something passed to say "no speed limit for sport bikes, on a road where no other vehicles/people are present within 2 miles" or something like that....

Sure, it's never gonna happen, but I can dream, right?

[brennahm]

I think the biggest issue that sportbikers (not exclusively by any means) face is the immediate assumption by the general populace (NOT EVERYbody, but including cops in general it would seem) that in a multivehicle accident the motorcyclist is at fault.

Regarding the linked letter, while I entirely agree with helmet laws being stupid...that guy is out of line in my book. You should not be allowed to ride without a helmet unless you can prove you carry some type of medical insurance. I'm all about personal choice, but NOT if that personal choice infringes on my rights by costing me money.

Interesting link.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Better yet, what if by not wearing a helmet, the Ins. companies assume very limited liabilities (if covered at all) for any head injuries, or at least have dramatically increased premiums (like smokers do)?

[Snowman]

The "my insurance will go up" argument is exactly the argument the insurance companies want you to make. They are going to raise rates no matter what happens because they make money ether way.

A. People wear helmets and it costs insurance companies less in payouts in medical expenses and they raise their rates a little.

B. People don't wear helmets and it costs insurance companies mores in payouts in medical and they raise their rates a lot.

Insurance ether way they will be making their 80% profit margin.

I would be in favor of a law though stating that if you choose to ride without a helmet and something happens to cause your death that you become automatically an organ donor.

[brennahm]

I never said they weren't going to raise their rates anyway, but just like all the people who use the emergency room as their primary care provider...we ALL pay for that. Just because our rates will go up anyway doesn't mean I don't care how MUCH they go up.

But yes, in a perfect world we could make all kinds of laws to protect you and me from the stupidity of others. I was, however, referring to the current f-ed up state of affairs. Frank, I'd be all for what you're talking about but it just won't happen.

[MetaLord 9]

- Motorcycles should be allowed to run red lights if waiting for more than 2 light cycles OR 5 minutes
- Make motorcycles a protected species by creating and enforcing a high fine or penalty for hitting a motorcycle or causing a motorcycle accident (only applicable when motorist is found at fault). If you can't see us then you get to pay when you hit us and not just a careless driving ticket and cab ride home. If bicycles get special protection on the road, then why wouldn't we?
- I'm still a fan of a graduated license where new riders are only allowed to ride certain HP bikes. The longer you ride, the more HP you can have.
- Before obtain a full driver's license, everyone should be required to spend 15 hours riding a motorcycle (pipe dream). When you've been out there, you make sure that you look twice.

[Snowman]

Yes... Ban all cars between May 1st and October 1st.

[*GSXR~SNAIL*]

- Motorcycles should be allowed to run red lights if waiting for more than 2 light cycles OR 5 minutes..How do we prove it?
- Make motorcycles a protected species by creating and enforcing a high fine or penalty for hitting a motorcycle or causing a motorcycle accident (only applicable when motorist is found at fault). If you can't see us then you get to pay when you hit us and not just a careless driving ticket and cab ride home. If bicycles get special protection on the road, then why wouldn't we? Specifically, what protection on the road are you referring to?
- I'm still a fan of a graduated license where new riders are only allowed to ride certain HP bikes. The longer you ride, the more HP you can have. Isn't this kinda like saying as a new gun owner you'd start out with a BB gun and then progress to the pellet gun, etc. as you became more proficient at shooting?
- Before obtain a full driver's license, everyone should be required to spend 15 hours riding a motorcycle (pipe dream). When you've been out there, you make sure that you look twice. Great concept, then we can all learn how to drive tractor trailers and get our CDL too.

I really like the ideas, but obviously, they are/will be a little hard to implement.

[MetaLord 9]

Rebuttal:

- if an officer witness a motorcycle run a red light from a standstill then they're probably seen the bike sitting there and you can claim that nowadays anyway
- Whacking a bicycler on Deer Creek is all kinds of hitting a pedestrian fines and tickets that (I believe) involve higher fines
- This is the current process in the UK and would result in a lot of better trained, more experienced riders. Plus this would weed out all the squids showing off on their race rep bikes with all of 10 minutes riding experience
- Not even close to the same thing. Riding a motorcycle makes you much more vulnerable than driving a semi.

[Spooph]

Totally behind tiered licensing! That would be great for insurance as well!

[TransNone13]

Rebuttal:

- if an officer witness a motorcycle run a red light from a standstill then they're probably seen the bike sitting there and you can claim that nowadays anyway
- Whacking a bicycler on Deer Creek is all kinds of hitting a pedestrian fines and tickets that (I believe) involve higher fines
- This is the current process in the UK and would result in a lot of better trained, more experienced riders. Plus this would weed out all the squids showing off on their race rep bikes with all of 10 minutes riding experience
- Not even close to the same thing. Riding a motorcycle makes you much more vulnerable than driving a semi.

All or nothing. Nanny state or individual rights. It is a right to be an idiot. It is a right to purchase an overpowered machine and smear yourself over the pavement. I wear all my gear, but I stand by the right of the individual to determine their level of safety. I feel the same about seat belt laws. If you are a legal adult, you should be able to determine how safe you choose to be. Again, you can't peace-meal freedom. Look at the patriot act, did you gain or lose freedom? Do you feel safer; if so at what cost? Please...

I enjoyed the article.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

The "my insurance will go up" argument is exactly the argument the insurance companies want you to make. They are going to raise rates no matter what happens because they make money ether way.

A. People wear helmets and it costs insurance companies less in payouts in medical expenses and they raise their rates a little.

B. People don't wear helmets and it costs insurance companies mores in payouts in medical and they raise their rates a lot.

Insurance ether way they will be making their 80% profit margin.

I would be in favor of a law though stating that if you choose to ride without a helmet and something happens to cause your death that you become automatically an organ donor.

People that are higher risk should expect to pay more, it's not fair to make the rest of us cover their indiscretions. We, as sportbike riders already pay higher rates because of the frequency in which their wadded, and the extra cost of plastics vs., say, touring bikes. When we were younger we paid higher rates because teen males tend to get in more accidents. I pay a little more for life ins. because I have higher blood pressure, some people pay more because they smoke. I don't have a major problem with that, it's only fair.

[TransNone13]

People that are higher risk should expect to pay more, it's not fair to make the rest of us cover their indiscretions. We, as sportbike riders already pay higher rates because of the frequency in which their wadded, and the extra cost of plastics vs., say, touring bikes. When we were younger we paid higher rates because teen males tend to get in more accidents. I pay a little more for life ins. because I have higher blood pressure, some people pay more because they smoke. I don't have a major problem with that, it's only fair.

That's between the insurance companies and the riders, not the state and federal government.

[brennahm]

I don't disagree with you guys, but I think you're missing the point. First, who in their right mind would tell their insurance company that they ride without a helmet knowing it will raise their rates? Secondly, the guys with insurance aren't the ones I'M worried about, it's the assholes who think they don't need health insurance, but get treated anyway on my dime.

And don't start with the "They're not asking to be treated..."

They'll get treated regardless and we'll all pay. Don't get me wrong, I'd have laws that prevent you from getting treatment you can't pay for, but doctors have the hippocratic oath and the general populace has bought into the idea that health care is a god given right. Until we get rid of the "right to health care" I'm going to support laws that keep money from going out of my pocket and into support of morons.

[MetaLord 9]

All or nothing. Nanny state or individual rights. It is a right to be an idiot. It is a right to purchase an overpowered machine and smear yourself over the pavement. I wear all my gear, but I stand by the right of the individual to determine their level of safety. I feel the same about seat belt laws. If you are a legal adult, you should be able to determine how safe you choose to be. Again, you can't peace-meal freedom. Look at the patriot act, did you gain or lose freedom? Do you feel safer; if so at what cost? Please...

I enjoyed the article.

Fair enough on the point of a graduated license, but the other points remain.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

That's between the insurance companies and the riders, not the state and federal government.

Ahhh, I thought that was abundantly clear from my post. Your point is???

[THoward]

Laws get passed or failed by the general public taking action and pursuing their beliefs. I joined ABATE in 1998. I joined because I saw all sorts of things happening across the country taking away individual rights (of course it is still happening). Not meaning to be preachy...is that a word? Contrary to popular belief, we are not the anti-helmet people...we are the freedom people. Our only focus is on motorcycling. We are tired of our fellow motorcyclists getting run over and killed, tired of people saying we shouldn't be on public roadways, tired of friends being maimed while the person that did it to them gets slapped on the hand, tired of the perception that we ride as a hobby and we are NOT a form of transportation!!
Besides providing educational classes ABATE fights for FAIR legislation regarding motorcycling. I have enjoyed getting to know a few of you and I want you to know that ABATE is a membership run organization. We take issues that our members want addressed and work through the proper channels to get things done. We do not all ride Harleys and we don't hate because you ride different 2 wheels than I do. Of course there are a**holes in every group. My members are ABATE...not me. By the way, in Colorado it is illegal to deny insurance benefits to anyone that has been hurt riding with or without a helmet, and any other "recreational" sport that is legal to participate in. That was something ABATE worked on several years ago. Many other states do not have that loophole closed. So here comes the "sales pitch" if you have issues you want dealt with concerning motorcycling, become a member and help us get the issues resolved.

[Spooph]

Thank you, glad to see a better relationship being formed between ABATE and the CSC.

[TransNone13]

Ahhh, I thought that was abundantly clear from my post. Your point is???

Must have misread it, oh well.

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Thank you, glad to see a better relationship being formed between ABATE and the CSC.

I always thought they HAD a good relationship.

[Spooph]

can't "good" become "better"?

[THoward]

I always thought they HAD a good relationship.

We do...but yes it can always get better!!

[TinkerinWstuff]

a**holes in every group.

You're always baggin on me!! Can't we just let it go already??




Just kidding - ABATE rocks!

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

We do...but yes it can always get better!!

True!