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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Some very good advice posted above. In case anyone cares, here are my thoughts on street riding in general not just this particular road. Riders need to ask themselves why they are riding. If it's to see how fast you can go, to see if you can get a knee down, impress others, etc. then you unequivocally need to be doing that on the track. There are simply too many unknowns on the street to be pushing that hard. No ride is so good that it's worth being your last.

    If your goal is to enjoy riding for yourself, improve your skills and reduce the dangers as much as you can, then you have the right mentality for street riding. I have been riding on the street since 1983 and I am still learning. (e.g. a couple of days ago I got some practice dealing with 40-50 mph gusting crosswinds in rain at interstate highway speeds and learned to scan the grass along the side of the road to see where the gusts were happening.)

    It is insufficient to tell someone to ride within their limits when they probably do not know what their limits are. Again, the track is the safest place to explore those limits and extend them. I see people spend all sorts of money on farkles for their bikes and nothing on educating themselves. Today's street machines can do pretty amazing things if you know how to ride them. You can learn from experience and you can also learn from people who are higher up the performance curve than you. Solicit input from experienced riders and learn from them. Take classes like the Jason Pridmore Star School. They will be at HPR on Aug 15-16. It is not a racing school. It is a riding school and I guarantee that you will learn a lot from them no matter what level you are at. The difference between a situation being a pucker moment or a dead rider is very often the rider's skill in making the bike do what is necessary to escape the danger. Forget the aftermarket exhaust. Spend your money on improving your skills.

    Since we're talking about a road where people are tempted to hit high speeds, it's good to understand how things change with increasing speed. The main one is that your ability to stop scales as the square of your speed. Your stopping distance at 100 mph is at least four times what it is at 50 mph. But you also have to consider what I call "thinking time" and reaction time. Thinking time is the time it takes you to see a situation and understand that you need to do something about. Then you have the reaction time to make the necessary inputs to the bike. The more experienced you are, the shorter the thinking time will probably be, maybe a second or better. For a beginner, it might be two seconds or more. An average reaction time is about 0.7 seconds. 50 mph is about 73 feet per second. If the reaction plus thinking time is 2.7 seconds, you travel nearly 200 feet before the bike can even do anything. At 100 mph, it's nearly 400 feet. For the experienced rider, it would be 124 feet at 50 mph and 250 feet at 100 mph. Add onto these, the breaking distances. The NHTSA did some braking tests and a VFR like mine took about 232 feet to come to a stop from 80 mph on dry pavement. Scale that up to 100 mph and it would be about 362 feet. Scaling down to 50 mph, it would be 91 feet. So if I took 1.7 secs to see and react to a situation at 50 mph, it would take 124 feet (think&react) + 91 feet (brake) = 215 feet or about 3/4 the length of a football field. At 100 mph it would be 250 feet + 362 feet = 612 feet, or over two football fields. Visualize that. That's the minimum distance for an experienced rider. Can you see that far around the triple digit sweeper you are in, realizing that leaned over, your braking distance will have to be even further? These are the kinds of things you need to understand if you are going to be doing triple digit speeds.

    We can't make the risk of riding a motorcycle zero. But we can greatly the reduce the risks. Knowledge, experience, and the right frame of mind can make riding much safer and much more enjoyable. Riding is a great thing, and something I can't imagine not being able to do, but it is not worth dying. Do everything you can to reduce the risks and the odds are that you will enjoy many years of one of the great pleasures in life.

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    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Yea that road though a bit fun but damn treacherous for sure. I've had my fair amount of close calls on that road (specially in that long straight away in the triple digits) and just overall I don't enjoy going that fast anymore. I mean just gotta ask yourself is it worth it haulin ass all throughout that road and increase your chances of dying or just enjoy the views, nature and most importantly the ride... plus also there with bueller and metalord about it not a very technical road at all plus it pushes newbs to limits they can't even grasp until they're either down or had a close call.
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    I'm pumped... Let's let the healing begin! Lifetime Supporter ~Barn~'s Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Well said, Jim.
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    Gold Member MetaLord 9's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Unfortunately, you can't make people care about riding better, or make them want to be better riders. Ultimately it's up to the rider to be responsible for their own ass. Those that are, usually get to ride another season. Those that aren't get to sell a parts bike.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Modern bikes somehow allowing a rider to break their limits "faster" than say a bike of 10 years ago, is really a just a matter of seconds. It's a nominal thing, IMO.

    If anything, I think modern bikes serve more to allow unaccomplished riders to seemingly extend their limits. Often times to their detriment. Things like: ABS, linked-brake systems, traction control, back torque limiting clutches, etc, etc....

    It's a bit of a double-edge sword, because that which can be a great aid to an experienced rider, can in turn provide a potentially false (or at least exaggerated) sense of competency, that can come back to eventually harm the rider, if they don't keep their true riding abilities in context. I hesitate to call them safer developments by default, because if misused/misunderstood, they can create a less demanding rider as a by-product. Flipside: If given to an already demanding rider, they can provide a true safety element.

    I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.
    Last edited by ~Barn~; Fri Jul 1st, 2011 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Spelling mostly.
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    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Barn~ View Post
    I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.

    And that is the problem: you can't become complacent when riding. Once you stop anticipating unexpected situations, you open the door for unfortunate consequences.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    My first experience with this road was my first ride with the CSC. I ended up with the "faster" group and I was way out of my league. As soon as we left Pine Junction I knew I was in way over my head. When you are doing triple didgets and not keeping up there is a problem. SO... having ridden for most of my life on some sort of bike, I backed off and rode my ride (they were on their way back before I even got to Deckers). The take away lesson from this is KNOW YOUR ABILITIES. It is fun to challenge yourself sometimes, hell you aren't having fun unless you are a little scared. This being said that road is sneaky sometimes with the tar, gravel, and other people (CARS AND BIKES). As long as you respect it that is a beautiful road all the way!!!
    Last edited by GregsGSXR; Sat Jul 9th, 2011 at 12:01 PM.
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    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    First off, in awe of Dirk's post full of great data (as usual). Great info for those willing and capable of fully realizing the implications of all he said.


    Quote Originally Posted by ~Barn~ View Post
    Modern bikes somehow allowing a rider to break their limits "faster" than say a bike of 10 years ago, is really a just a matter of seconds. It's a nominal thing, IMO.

    If anything, I think modern bikes serve more to allow unaccomplished riders to seemingly extend their limits. Often times to their detriment. Things like: ABS, linked-brake systems, traction control, back torque limiting clutches, etc, etc....

    It's a bit of a double-edge sword, because that which can be a great aid to an experienced rider, can in turn provide a potentially false (or at least exaggerated) sense of competency, that can come back to eventually harm the rider, if they don't keep their true riding abilities in context. I hesitate to call them safer developments by default, because if misused/misunderstood, they can create a less demanding rider as a by-product. Flipside: If given to an already demanding rider, they can provide a true safety element.

    I believe the word of the day (for this thread at least), is complacency.
    I'm going to further expand on Barn's post a little, and also give nod to the post from "The Abdominal Snowman". Having also starting riding street many more years ago than I usually care to admit (serious FOG status - ok, '82), I can also vouch for the fact that today's bikes are quantum leaps forward in every performance aspect except comfort. The acceleration is a lot better, but the advances in handling, braking, stability, and tires are far more extreme. What I think this does, is mask the sensation of speed, to fool your internal "speedo" because of the effortless ease with which the bikes achieve this speed and react to it. In the old days, yeah, there were some fast bikes (the Z1, the CBR series, the GS1100 series, the later GPZ's and VFR's, etc.), but on those bikes, you really felt every mph. The bike would be moving around a little on you, there was always this feeling of instability in your seat-of-the-pants sensors, and you really would only open it up on the straights, because you knew that even though you had "great" brakes (for the day), you knew you needed more distance to slow down, and it was much heavier and harder to turn, and even less stable once in a turn. Today's bikes are so much more stable, it leads people into bigger speed on the straights (even easier because of the more hp/less weight factor), and that stability also leads them into entering corners quicker. And, regardless of these fantastic new tires we have, sand/gravel/tar snakes will still put you on your ass just as quick as in the olde days. Also, the higher cornering speeds require a much more perfect line, with far less deviation allowable in case of emergency (or poor lines) to actually make the corner. To put it simply, the older bikes scared you into respecting them at much lower speeds, the new bikes are SO tolerant of ham-fisted-ness (especially with TC and stability control etc.) that it's much less drama and less warning before you get in WAY over your head.....and then it's usually too late. And, it's far easier for a n00b to take full advantage of all this new hp that gets them INTO trouble than it is for them to take full advantage of the handling and braking (to say nothing of their lines) to get them OUT of trouble.

    A perfect example of this "sensation of speed" is a trip I took in my brothers turbo Mazdasport Miata. We were running maybe 60-ish mph with the top down thru some twisties on the way from Portland to the coast, and I could have sworn we were doing 80+......until I looked at the speedo. I was amazed. I told my brother I was surprised at the speed I felt we were going, and added that if I was on the bike I'd have another 20mph in hand on that road. It was weird.
    Last edited by CYCLE_MONKEY; Fri Jul 1st, 2011 at 10:58 AM.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post

    A perfect example of this "sensation of speed"...
    I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

    </off topic>
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by spideyrdr View Post
    I think being lower to the ground in a Miata has something to do with it. We perceive how fast the ground is whizzing by us much more when our eyes are 3 feet from the surface versus the 6 feet away our eyes are when we are on two wheels. When I get in my wife's crappy Camry (sorry honey) I feel like I am hauling ass compared to my Jeep or my motorcycle.

    </off topic>
    There is maybe some of that, but as tall as I am (6'1" - I barely fit in the Miata), I think my head was about the same height when I'm crouched down on the Gixxer, and I'm sure I'm actually closer to the ground when cranked over mid-turn. Now, if I was in a Kart or F1 car or something with my ass 3" off the ground, for sure. I think it was mostly that the Miata felt more "alive" at only 60mph. All the little inputs like the car settling on it's springs from one side to the other, moving around, whereas the Gixxer is rock-solid at whatever speed. I know that's the case comparing the old bikes to the new ones. The old 1100's had big, heavy, powerful engines (for the day), in a flexy frame with spindly forks, limp/cheap suspension, and weak brakes. So, they were always more "alive", always moving around underneath you a little. On the Gixxer, I feel acutely and more accurately what my tires are doing, the roughness of the road surface, but the bike itself feels like it's machined from billet, with only the suspension moving. On my old '83 GS1100ES, the whole bike was mvoing around, I could feel the forks flex. On my first street bike ('81 Yamahe Maxim 650) it had only a single front disk, and you could SEE the forks flex to the left when I got on the brakes, it DEFINATELY made going into corners hard on the brakes different in left turns than right turns.
    Last edited by CYCLE_MONKEY; Fri Jul 1st, 2011 at 12:11 PM.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion



    What'up Frank... I always get a chuckle how most all of your posts (regardless of topic, discussion, issue, theme, or purpose)... always seem to end with a party or person, being "shown no mercy" in some fashion.

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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Barn~ View Post


    What'up Frank... I always get a chuckle how most all of your posts (regardless of topic, discussion, issue, theme, or purpose)... always seem to end with a party or person, being "shown no mercy" in some fashion.

    Happy Friday Buddy. Sweep the leg!
    Hah! No quarter asked, no quarter given! Happy 4th of July weekend to you too bro! Yeah, I just would hate to think that some dickhead with a grudge against bikers would be directly, methodically, and maliciously responsible for hurting or killing anyone that rides just because they're "annoyed" with riders.
    --------------------------------------------------
    "...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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    Senior Member Snowman's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    We are riding vehicles that are easily twice the horsepower to weight ratio with half the contact points the size of half dollars to keep us on the road. To control this rolling mass requires a much higher level of physical ability compared to a normal car.

    The equipment we ride has also advanced ten fold over the bikes I started out on the 80’s, both in power and performance. So I agree it is getting easier to become comfortable with the bike. The line we ride has always been a very fine one. But the problem I see with the higher end sport bikes is as the performance aspect increases this line becomes finer.

    Complacency is a big factor. Get too comfortable with what you are doing and sure enough you will cross that line. I think allot of the newer riders are stepping on to machines that we old timers could only dream about back in the day, not understanding the level we have reached and the respect for these machines you must have.

    I think it is up to us who have ridden for a while to try and get that across to the newer riders just what they are getting into.

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    Gold Member MetaLord 9's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Complacency is a big factor. Get too comfortable with what you are doing and sure enough you will cross that line. I think allot of the newer riders are stepping on to machines that we old timers could only dream about back in the day, not understanding the level we have reached and the respect for these machines you must have.
    I feel like these are two of the main points: Complacency for older/experienced riders, and respect for the machine your own abilities for younger/newer ones.

    Younger/newer riders see more experienced riders (like almost everyone in this thread, myself excluded) make it look easy and get the "I can do that" syndrome, especially when newer machines offer straight line speeds that make catching up easier.

    There's also the ego factor for a lot of riders both experienced & green. the green riders think "how hard can this be, I've got this" and don't properly grasp their own capabilities, the capabilities of the bike, and the constantly changing conditions of the road.

    Experienced riders have to fight the "I've done this road a million times before and could ride it in my sleep" problem. Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaLord 9 View Post
    Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track
    I disagree with this statement. Racers and/or track riders who continue to ride street generally scale it back and are more aware of the hazards that they would not normally encounter while riding their limit on a track.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyDogRacing View Post
    I disagree with this statement. Racers and/or track riders who continue to ride street generally scale it back and are more aware of the hazards that they would not normally encounter while riding their limit on a track.
    +1. Once I started riding on the track I reeeeally slowed down on the street.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaLord 9 View Post
    ... Or the riders that are used to pushing it on the track get back on the street and lower their guard because they're not pushing as hard as they are on the track

    I'm going to disagree with this also. Racing and riding the track has made me realize even more that the road is not the place to push your limits or work on technique.
    I still ride the road on occasion but when I do it's at a mellow pace. No matter how well you may know a particular route the fact is on public roads it's ever changing. That's where the track is such a treat, it's always the same and predictable. No cars, no oil, no guard rails, no unexpected road repair.

    I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite675 View Post
    I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.
    Dunno if I agree with this as a blanket statement, I've seen some people try and translate that ballz-out speed from the track to the street, thinking that automatically makes them a better street rider - not so at all.

    And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.
    --------------------------------------------------
    "...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    And I'll have to add to the second statement that the reverse is true - the track can't compare to the street. Especially in terms of scenery, the extreme diversity of corners and road conditions (sand/gravel, moisture, etc.), "reading" a new road for the right line and where the corners go. In most ways, I'd say the street is far, far more difficult, and certainly less forgiving. Also, that track riding helps give you skills for lines, braking, lean, and such, but the street is so much more complex that the best experience for building your street skills is.....riding the street.....and not at track speeds.
    I agree the scenery is beautiful and that's why I still ride the road on occasion. With that said the road (IMO) is not a race track and not a place to be learning "technique", "new lines", "dragging knee", etc. Yes I have done it on occasion myself but have less and less desire to do so anymore. (maybe old age? :-) It's just not safe and that's the bottom line. One wrong move and you could be face to face with oncoming traffic. Too many variables, too deadly. It's all personal choice though. I prefer to sit back and enjoy the ride and scenery at a mellower pace on the road now days.
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite675 View Post
    I am a firm believer that riding the track will make you a mellow road rider. The roads just can't compare to the track.

    .
    I actually agree with this. I started riding slower in most cases on the street, but even if I pick up the pace, I am still only riding at a fraction of my ability or comfort level. I am by no means a fast person on the track, but on the street, I ride at ~40% of comfort level, only exceeding that on roads I know well, but still not going over ~60%...

    when I was new to this twisty stuff a whopping 3 years ago, I was riding the same pace on the street and the track, and both were slow as shit in hindsight, but I was riding closer to my limit, but alot slower than I currently ride

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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    I think it is up to us who have ridden for a while to try and get that across to the newer riders just what they are getting into.
    I don't see that happening with the current generation. They already know everything.
    Motorcycle Roadracing Association #29
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  22. #22
    AKA "Devaclis"
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    lol I got injured on HPH at a relatively low speed (67 mph) on a dual sport with off road tires.

    My suggestion - Check your gear, check your bike, make sure everything is up to par for the kind of riding you are going to be doing. Mechanical failure is normally tougher to think through than a mental error is. Maintain yo shit son!!

    Oh, you may also want to slow down a bit and enjoy the beautiful scenery up there. You are not being scouted for a MotoGP alternate spot.
    First rule of the internet: *bleep* you and everything you stand for. Second rule of the internet: FKZOR U AND RRYTHING U STND FR!

  23. #23
    Geriatric Curmudgeon Lifetime Supporter Nick_Ninja's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Deckers sucks.
    "Its all about the motorbikes, always has been and always will be.". ~~ Ewan McGregor 2007

    "It's hard to play the blues when nuthin's really wrong."~~ ---- Joe Walsh 2012

    I.B.A. # 14748 124@X - YRMV

  24. #24
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: The Deckers Route~Experienced Riders Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick_Ninja View Post
    Deckers sucks.
    That's an encouraging response.
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