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Thread: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

  1. #481
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    I don't even read or watch anything on "Occupy" deals anymore. At first it was interesting, in that we ALL hate big bankers and blame them for ruining the American economy, etc. The Occupy movement, unfortunately, is 90% (stereotypical) lazy far-left commie pinko pro-labor types. BUT, the 10% (real libertarians, RonPaul fanbois, and people who actually read about finance/economy/etc.) are smart and worth listening too, imo.

    Occupy goons are exactly like the TeaParty, another excellent example of 90% retards, and 10% intellectuals who know what they're talking about. Unfortunately the idiotic 90% are also the loudest, ugh. So they drown out that 10% that are worth listening to, for regular people like us.

    In their defense though, there's a great article by one of the smarter Occupy leaders, directed at some guy who ragged on them on Youtube because "I have a job, but all Occupy people are lazy" mantra...
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    Senior Member jbnwc's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Occupy goons are exactly like the TeaParty, another excellent example of 90% retards, and 10% intellectuals who know what they're talking about. Unfortunately the idiotic 90% are also the loudest, ugh. So they drown out that 10% that are worth listening to, for regular people like us.
    Apparently you've never seen, been to, caught a recording of, read a transcript from, or driven by a TEA party rally. The only things the two have in common are the fact that humans attend both and they both are political movements in nature. While thousands of OWS people have been arrested, I've never heard of a single TEA partier being arrested.
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  3. #483
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbnwc View Post
    Apparently you've never seen, been to, caught a recording of, read a transcript from, or driven by a TEA party rally.
    True, never seen one in person. The transcripts and recordings must be from the "good 10%", as opposed the other 90% goons that we hear about screaming "Obama witchdoctor deathpanels", etc.

    http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/f...ging-Pictures/

    Har-har-har...
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  4. #484
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    This is a good read:

    http://fthebanks.org/matt-taibbi-on-bank-of-america/

    Matt is one of the few telling it like it is. Last night I saw on the news that Colorado HB 1156 was shot down. (See here.)Right now banks can foreclose on your house with only the signature of a lawyer saying that the lender has the right to do so, not having to present original documents showing that they do. I've had good, honest, hard working friends caught up in the robosigning mess with banks screwing with them at every turn. Until we break the stranglehold that the banks have on our government, there isn't going to be any economic recovery.
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    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    This is a good read:

    http://fthebanks.org/matt-taibbi-on-bank-of-america/

    Matt is one of the few telling it like it is. Last night I saw on the news that Colorado HB 1156 was shot down. (See here.)Right now banks can foreclose on your house with only the signature of a lawyer saying that the lender has the right to do so, not having to present original documents showing that they do. I've had good, honest, hard working friends caught up in the robosigning mess with banks screwing with them at every turn. Until we break the stranglehold that the banks have on our government, there isn't going to be any economic recovery.
    I like what the guys has to say. I wish he had provided links to actual data. But, I won't use B of A because I didn't like them anyways. I use Wells Fargo now, and they've treated me better than 1st Ban did. I also don't really use them for much though, just checking.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    I like what the guys has to say. I wish he had provided links to actual data.
    Read this gem:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/85355086/A...ment-Complaint

    Wholesale theft the likes of which I've never seen,, and not a single person will do time for it, just fines (and guess who ultimately pays those?). But if you or I went into a store and held them up for a few bucks, we'd be hanging out with Bubba for years.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    More good reading:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-fail-20120314

    It's unbelievable how much shit has been pulled on the honest and hard working people of this country by the big banks and financial firms. If the OWS and/or Tea Party people can help get this information out, more power to them. The mainstream press certainly isn't going to do it.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    I like what the guys has to say. I wish he had provided links to actual data. But, I won't use B of A because I didn't like them anyways. I use Wells Fargo now, and they've treated me better than 1st Ban did. I also don't really use them for much though, just checking.
    I have personally witnessed BoA taking someone's house without due cause (a CSC'er in fact), I will never give them a penny of my money again. I have my 1st mortgage with WF, they have been fair to me even when I got in some financial trouble years ago. It was expensive for me, but I don't feel they were out to get me beyond just covering themselves.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    More good reading:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-fail-20120314

    It's unbelievable how much shit has been pulled on the honest and hard working people of this country by the big banks and financial firms. If the OWS and/or Tea Party people can help get this information out, more power to them. The mainstream press certainly isn't going to do it.
    Definitely worth a read. This line gave me pause:
    Last year, the Federal Reserve allowed Bank of America to move a huge portfolio of dangerous bets into a side of the company that happens to be FDIC-insured, putting all of us on the hook for as much as $55 trillion in irresponsible gambles.
    If that actually went bad, the FDIC would either have to collapse, or renig on its insurance commitments; there probably wouldn't be much distinction. The economy literally could not pay that much money back if it were ever called, or even a fraction of it.

    Still reading the rest of that article, and shaking my head repeatedly. Wow.
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  10. #490
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by rforsythe View Post
    Definitely worth a read. This line gave me pause:


    If that actually went bad, the FDIC would either have to collapse, or renig on its insurance commitments; there probably wouldn't be much distinction. The economy literally could not pay that much money back if it were ever called, or even a fraction of it.

    Still reading the rest of that article, and shaking my head repeatedly. Wow.
    Yep, that is some scary shit right there. I think I posted something about it a while back when they did it. Most are too preoccupied to know or care to know (which is why the government and press are supposed to be keeping an eye on things, but they've both been bought out) but I'm hoping that enough people catch on before it's too late.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



  11. #491
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/05/08-1

    A Rebellious World or a New Dark Age?


    On the History of the US Economy in Decline

    by Noam Chomsky
    The Occupy movement has been an extremely exciting development. Unprecedented, in fact. There’s never been anything like it that I can think of. If the bonds and associations it has established can be sustained through a long, dark period ahead -- because victory won’t come quickly -- it could prove a significant moment in American history.

    The fact that the Occupy movement is unprecedented is quite appropriate. After all, it’s an unprecedented era and has been so since the 1970s, which marked a major turning point in American history. For centuries, since the country began, it had been a developing society, and not always in very pretty ways. That’s another story, but the general progress was toward wealth, industrialization, development, and hope. There was a pretty constant expectation that it was going to go on like this. That was true even in very dark times.

    I’m just old enough to remember the Great Depression. After the first few years, by the mid-1930s -- although the situation was objectively much harsher than it is today -- nevertheless, the spirit was quite different. There was a sense that “we’re gonna get out of it,” even among unemployed people, including a lot of my relatives, a sense that “it will get better.”

    There was militant labor union organizing going on, especially from the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations). It was getting to the point of sit-down strikes, which are frightening to the business world -- you could see it in the business press at the time -- because a sit-down strike is just a step before taking over the factory and running it yourself. The idea of worker takeovers is something which is, incidentally, very much on the agenda today, and we should keep it in mind. Also New Deal legislation was beginning to come in as a result of popular pressure. Despite the hard times, there was a sense that, somehow, “we’re gonna get out of it.”
    It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair. I think it’s quite new in American history. And it has an objective basis.

    On the Working Class

    In the 1930s, unemployed working people could anticipate that their jobs would come back. If you’re a worker in manufacturing today -- the current level of unemployment there is approximately like the Depression -- and current tendencies persist, those jobs aren’t going to come back.

    The change took place in the 1970s. There are a lot of reasons for it. One of the underlying factors, discussed mainly by economic historian Robert Brenner, was the falling rate of profit in manufacturing. There were other factors. It led to major changes in the economy -- a reversal of several hundred years of progress towards industrialization and development that turned into a process of de-industrialization and de-development. Of course, manufacturing production continued overseas very profitably, but it’s no good for the work force.

    Along with that came a significant shift of the economy from productive enterprise -- producing things people need or could use -- to financial manipulation. The financialization of the economy really took off at that time.

    On Banks

    Before the 1970s, banks were banks. They did what banks were supposed to do in a state capitalist economy: they took unused funds from your bank account, for example, and transferred them to some potentially useful purpose like helping a family buy a home or send a kid to college.

    That changed dramatically in the 1970s. Until then, there had been no financial crises since the Great Depression. The 1950s and 1960s had been a period of enormous growth, the highest in American history, maybe in economic history.

    And it was egalitarian. The lowest quintile did about as well as the highest quintile. Lots of people moved into reasonable lifestyles -- what’s called the “middle class” here, the “working class” in other countries -- but it was real. And the 1960s accelerated it. The activism of those years, after a pretty dismal decade, really civilized the country in lots of ways that are permanent.

    When the 1970s came along, there were sudden and sharp changes: de-industrialization, the off-shoring of production, and the shift to financial institutions, which grew enormously. I should say that, in the 1950s and 1960s, there was also the development of what several decades later became the high-tech economy: computers, the Internet, the IT Revolution developed substantially in the state sector.

    The developments that took place during the 1970s set off a vicious cycle. It led to the concentration of wealth increasingly in the hands of the financial sector. This doesn’t benefit the economy -- it probably harms it and society -- but it did lead to a tremendous concentration of wealth.

    On Politics and Money

    Concentration of wealth yields concentration of political power. And concentration of political power gives rise to legislation that increases and accelerates the cycle. The legislation, essentially bipartisan, drives new fiscal policies and tax changes, as well as the rules of corporate governance and deregulation. Alongside this began a sharp rise in the costs of elections, which drove the political parties even deeper into the pockets of the corporate sector.

    The parties dissolved in many ways. It used to be that if a person in Congress hoped for a position such as a committee chair, he or she got it mainly through seniority and service. Within a couple of years, they started having to put money into the party coffers in order to get ahead, a topic studied mainly by Tom Ferguson. That just drove the whole system even deeper into the pockets of the corporate sector (increasingly the financial sector).

    This cycle resulted in a tremendous concentration of wealth, mainly in the top tenth of one percent of the population. Meanwhile, it opened a period of stagnation or even decline for the majority of the population. People got by, but by artificial means such as longer working hours, high rates of borrowing and debt, and reliance on asset inflation like the recent housing bubble. Pretty soon those working hours were much higher in the United States than in other industrial countries like Japan and various places in Europe. So there was a period of stagnation and decline for the majority alongside a period of sharp concentration of wealth. The political system began to dissolve.

    There has always been a gap between public policy and public will, but it just grew astronomically. You can see it right now, in fact. Take a look at the big topic in Washington that everyone concentrates on: the deficit. For the public, correctly, the deficit is not regarded as much of an issue. And it isn’t really much of an issue. The issue is joblessness. There’s a deficit commission but no joblessness commission. As far as the deficit is concerned, the public has opinions. Take a look at the polls. The public overwhelmingly supports higher taxes on the wealthy, which have declined sharply in this period of stagnation and decline, and the preservation of limited social benefits.

    The outcome of the deficit commission is probably going to be the opposite. The Occupy movements could provide a mass base for trying to avert what amounts to a dagger pointed at the heart of the country.

    Plutonomy and the Precariat

    For the general population, the 99% in the imagery of the Occupy movement, it’s been pretty harsh -- and it could get worse. This could be a period of irreversible decline. For the 1% and even less -- the .1% -- it’s just fine. They are richer than ever, more powerful than ever, controlling the political system, disregarding the public. And if it can continue, as far as they’re concerned, sure, why not?

    Take, for example, Citigroup. For decades, Citigroup has been one of the most corrupt of the major investment banking corporations, repeatedly bailed out by the taxpayer, starting in the early Reagan years and now once again. I won’t run through the corruption, but it’s pretty astonishing.
    In 2005, Citigroup came out with a brochure for investors called “Plutonomy: Buying Luxury, Explaining Global Imbalances.” It urged investors to put money into a “plutonomy index.” The brochure says, “The World is dividing into two blocs -- the Plutonomy and the rest.”

    Plutonomy refers to the rich, those who buy luxury goods and so on, and that’s where the action is. They claimed that their plutonomy index was way outperforming the stock market. As for the rest, we set them adrift. We don’t really care about them. We don’t really need them. They have to be around to provide a powerful state, which will protect us and bail us out when we get into trouble, but other than that they essentially have no function. These days they’re sometimes called the “precariat” -- people who live a precarious existence at the periphery of society. Only it’s not the periphery anymore. It’s becoming a very substantial part of society in the United States and indeed elsewhere. And this is considered a good thing.

    So, for example, Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan, at the time when he was still “Saint Alan” -- hailed by the economics profession as one of the greatest economists of all time (this was before the crash for which he was substantially responsible) -- was testifying to Congress in the Clinton years, and he explained the wonders of the great economy that he was supervising. He said a lot of its success was based substantially on what he called “growing worker insecurity.” If working people are insecure, if they’re part of the precariat, living precarious existences, they’re not going to make demands, they’re not going to try to get better wages, they won’t get improved benefits. We can kick ’em out, if we don’t need ’em. And that’s what’s called a “healthy” economy, technically speaking. And he was highly praised for this, greatly admired.

    So the world is now indeed splitting into a plutonomy and a precariat -- in the imagery of the Occupy movement, the 1% and the 99%. Not literal numbers, but the right picture. Now, the plutonomy is where the action is and it could continue like this.

    If it does, the historic reversal that began in the 1970s could become irreversible. That’s where we’re heading. And the Occupy movement is the first real, major, popular reaction that could avert this. But it’s going to be necessary to face the fact that it’s a long, hard struggle. You don’t win victories tomorrow. You have to form the structures that will be sustained, that will go on through hard times and can win major victories. And there are a lot of things that can be done.

    Toward Worker Takeover

    I mentioned before that, in the 1930s, one of the most effective actions was the sit-down strike. And the reason is simple: that’s just a step before the takeover of an industry.

    Through the 1970s, as the decline was setting in, there were some important events that took place. In 1977, U.S. Steel decided to close one of its major facilities in Youngstown, Ohio. Instead of just walking away, the workforce and the community decided to get together and buy it from the company, hand it over to the work force, and turn it into a worker-run, worker-managed facility. They didn’t win. But with enough popular support, they could have won. It’s a topic that Gar Alperovitz and Staughton Lynd, the lawyer for the workers and community, have discussed in detail.

    It was a partial victory because, even though they lost, it set off other efforts. And now, throughout Ohio, and in other places, there’s a scattering of hundreds, maybe thousands, of sometimes not-so-small worker/community-owned industries that could become worker-managed. And that’s the basis for a real revolution. That’s how it takes place.
    In one of the suburbs of Boston, about a year ago, something similar happened. A multinational decided to close down a profitable, functioning facility carrying out some high-tech manufacturing. Evidently, it just wasn’t profitable enough for them. The workforce and the union offered to buy it, take it over, and run it themselves. The multinational decided to close it down instead, probably for reasons of class-consciousness. I don’t think they want things like this to happen. If there had been enough popular support, if there had been something like the Occupy movement that could have gotten involved, they might have succeeded.

    And there are other things going on like that. In fact, some of them are major. Not long ago, President Barack Obama took over the auto industry, which was basically owned by the public. And there were a number of things that could have been done. One was what was done: reconstitute it so that it could be handed back to the ownership, or very similar ownership, and continue on its traditional path.

    The other possibility was to hand it over to the workforce -- which owned it anyway -- turn it into a worker-owned, worker-managed major industrial system that’s a big part of the economy, and have it produce things that people need. And there’s a lot that we need.

    We all know or should know that the United States is extremely backward globally in high-speed transportation, and it’s very serious. It not only affects people’s lives, but the economy. In that regard, here’s a personal story. I happened to be giving talks in France a couple of months ago and had to take a train from Avignon in southern France to Charles De Gaulle Airport in Paris, the same distance as from Washington, DC, to Boston. It took two hours. I don’t know if you’ve ever taken the train from Washington to Boston, but it’s operating at about the same speed it was 60 years ago when my wife and I first took it. It’s a scandal.

    It could be done here as it’s been done in Europe. They had the capacity to do it, the skilled work force. It would have taken a little popular support, but it could have made a major change in the economy.

    Just to make it more surreal, while this option was being avoided, the Obama administration was sending its transportation secretary to Spain to get contracts for developing high-speed rail for the United States, which could have been done right in the rust belt, which is being closed down. There are no economic reasons why this can’t happen. These are class reasons, and reflect the lack of popular political mobilization. Things like this continue.

    Climate Change and Nuclear Weapons
    I’ve kept to domestic issues, but there are two dangerous developments in the international arena, which are a kind of shadow that hangs over everything we’ve discussed. There are, for the first time in human history, real threats to the decent survival of the species.

    One has been hanging around since 1945. It’s kind of a miracle that we’ve escaped it. That’s the threat of nuclear war and nuclear weapons. Though it isn’t being much discussed, that threat is, in fact, being escalated by the policies of this administration and its allies. And something has to be done about that or we’re in real trouble.

    The other, of course, is environmental catastrophe. Practically every country in the world is taking at least halting steps towards trying to do something about it. The United States is also taking steps, mainly to accelerate the threat. It is the only major country that is not only not doing something constructive to protect the environment, it’s not even climbing on the train. In some ways, it’s pulling it backwards.

    And this is connected to a huge propaganda system, proudly and openly declared by the business world, to try to convince people that climate change is just a liberal hoax. “Why pay attention to these scientists?”
    We’re really regressing back to the dark ages. It’s not a joke. And if that’s happening in the most powerful, richest country in history, then this catastrophe isn’t going to be averted -- and in a generation or two, everything else we’re talking about won’t matter. Something has to be done about it very soon in a dedicated, sustained way.

    It’s not going to be easy to proceed. There are going to be barriers, difficulties, hardships, failures. It’s inevitable. But unless the spirit of the last year, here and elsewhere in the country and around the globe, continues to grow and becomes a major force in the social and political world, the chances for a decent future are not very high.
    © 2012 Noam Chomsky
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    WASHINGTON -- Dick Lugar was a nice guy who stayed too long. But his crushing loss is also a valid data point in a profound and troubling trend, obvious not only in politics but in every other aspect of American life.

    We are losing the mediating middle of everything, and the result is a country paralyzed by social and economic as well as political division.

    The remorseless logic of global capital (think: big banks and super PACs) and the middleman-crushing power of the Internet (think: Amazon and the Tea Party) are combining to end not only the "small r" republican vision of the Founders but also many essential, intermediating business and social structures.

    The Founders feared both the Monarch and the Mob. Now the salving, balancing middle is being ground to dust between the two.

    Like an engine without oil or a knee without cartilage, we are in danger of seizing up. We are losing many of our lesser but essential sources of authority, credit, guidance, service and judgment. Face-to-face dealings, accidental acquaintances, the happenstances of geography and commerce are being replaced by a net-based cacophony of political flash mobs, stovepiped thinking and mail-order trade for virtually every product and service.

    A partial list of who is under pressure: families with time to be a family, independent-minded elected representatives, small farmers not beholden to Monsanto or Cargill, county chairmen, "big tent" politics, independent business and sales agents, weekly newspapers, local radio and TV stations, teachers with freedom to teach, principals with latitude to run their schools, local religious leaders respected for their character and judgment.

    In politics, the national parties have ceased to be mechanisms of consensus or even mechanisms at all. The power resides entirely with ideological, commercial or personal money.

    Barack Obama and Mitt Romney, two cool, aloof, effective assemblers of the new machinery, rely entirely on their own purpose-built campaigns, which have allegiance to no one but them.

    Congress is now a home for the politically incapacitated. Senators who once had a year or two to attempt statesmanship and independent thought begin running for reelection even before they are sworn in.

    As for the media, the days are long gone when a news anchor like Walter Cronkite could end his broadcast by saying, "And that's the way it is," and most people in the country would nod in agreement. There are no such truly unifying figures today, and most of the money in televised news is spent on ideologically discrete presentations of it.

    The Internet makes possible the assembly of new intermediating institutions, but those are still in their infancy for the most part. In the meantime, mighty and basically unaccountable companies such as Google, Facebook, Amazon and others conduct, facilitate and dominate monarch-to-mob-and-back commerce.

    To fend off both the monarchy and the mob, the Founders resurrected the Roman ideal of republican government, updated with a Newtonian clockwork of countervailing powers. They saw further protection against political tyranny in an economy of widely dispersed private property -- the ideal for them was the English yeomanry -- and in a rich social soil of education, family and homage to faith that would produce solid citizens.
    Today, the Monarchy isn't a Hanoverian in a dusty wig, but rather a silent alliance between an all-knowing, all-benefit-dispensing Washington and billionaires (real people or corporate "people") given new freedom to exert their power by spending at will.

    Today, the Mob isn't a witch hunt in Salem, but rather an Internet increasingly ruled by the worship of the viral and made profitable largely by companies that specialize in the Schumpeterian work of wiping out social supply lines of local human interaction with generations or even millennia of tradition.

    The risk is that in the name of democracy, we are going to destroy it; that in the name of freedom, we are going to lose it; and that in the name of bringing the budget under control and saving the middle class, we are going to lose both to the Monarchy and the Mob.
    Other than that, things are going fine.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard...b_1502845.html
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  13. #493
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    What if the president proposed something big -- something that really focused on a broader question, such as the fundamental inequality in America? Well, surely, if he did so, he would be labelled a socialist! Not socialist as defined in the academic sense, or as the rest of the world uses it in its political life, but in the crude way that Republicans have always used it -- as a brickbat to throw at their political opposition.

    This has all happened before. In the 1936 election, when FDR proposed the "radical" safety net of Social Security, his Republican opponent Gov. Alf Landon painted a portrait, familiar to FDR's detractors, of the president as a communist and socialist:
    Imagine the field opened for federal snooping. Are these 26 million going to be fingerprinted? Are their photographs going to be kept on file in a Washington office? Or are they going to have identification tags put around their necks?
    Fortunately, Americans ignored him and gave FDR an overwhelming victory.

    Democrats are again in an excellent position to take a risk like FDR took with the New Deal. They might give themselves some identity other than that of modest centrists, constantly worried about offending one constituency or another.

    Professional party Democrats in Washington have been dismissive of the New Deal for the past twenty years, considering it a coalition of voting groups that are now "passé." While that is true, they could learn from the example of a White House administration tending to the needs -- and the pain -- of Americans. FDR's administration was not afraid to institute programs that the Republicans condemned as "socialist"; it was ready to take the flak from a right wing that was always prominent in the Republican party -- and that now seems to control it.

    Commenting on Republican congressman Allen West's assertion that there are currently "78 to 81" Communists in the Democratic party, Thomas E. Mann and Norman J. Ornstein wrote in a recent Washington Post op-ed, entitled "Let's just say it: The Republicans are the problem":
    The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition. When one party moves this far from the mainstream, it makes it nearly impossible for the political system to deal constructively with the country's challenges.
    They're going to call us socialists or communists no matter what we do, so now seems like as good a time as any -- when their party is in disarray -- to solve inequality. It's not "class warfare." When I was young, America, indeed, had a real class system (in the same way that much of the world still does). Now, social distinction is largely based on income bracket, not birth. Inequality is the problem.

    Discrimination because of class difference was bad enough, but our present inequalities have a new, quite sinister origin. Money means power. Super money means super power. It's not just that the top 1 percent -- and the top 0.1 percent -- skims their money off the top. What is more important is that power is concentrated in a very few hands, which is a disaster for our democracy. (See Paul Krugman's article "Plutocracy, Paralysis, Perplexity.")

    As a result, we see two things happening. The first is abuse of the capitalist system -- demonstrated by free enterprise run amok as experienced in 2008, and from which we still suffer. The second is the tremendous control wielded by those who provide money for campaign financing. They are the people FDR once summed up quite neatly as "organized money."

    Let us draw a line between business institutions that are expected to perform essential services for us and those that are allowed to carry on in the ways to which they are accustomed. (Although, hopefully, with less "buccaneering." The Dodd-Frank legislation designed to introduce regulation has been badly watered down or not even carried out.)

    We should simply recognize those business institutions that provide basic services and require close monitoring to ensure that these services are performed well. No, not nationalization, but careful regulation of businesses that agree to provide specific services with agreed-upon "just profits."

    Credit cards and a bank account are essential to daily life. The New York Times reported on April 30 that "The banking industry as a whole earned nearly $30 billion last year from overdraft fees on debit cards and checking accounts." An attorney from the National Consumer Law Center summed it up: "Profits are the reasons for fees, not risk or costs."

    And what about loans for buying a house? Or for education? And health insurance, perhaps even life insurance? What about heating our home? Many communities contract with a provider for water and electricity. Is not the profit factor agreed upon? And monitored? (Is that not how we handle military contracts, even if we don't monitor those very well?)

    There is a long history of business working closely with private enterprise, going back to the New Deal and on through World War II. At the local level today we have many examples. The Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority in New York comes to mind. There are other experiments with "hybrid companies," as Stephanie Strom informed us in the New York Times: "A new type of company intended to put social goals ahead of making profits is taking root around the country, as more states adopt laws to bridge the divide between nonprofits and businesses."

    But, one knows that most institutions, particularly the big ones, will not respond voluntarily, or simply won't cooperate. Hence, there is little realistic choice other than government intervention and supervision. Government action was behind every program of the New Deal. And we seemed not only to have survived but also prospered. No question about it: on a nationwide scale, our government needs to provide the framework and monitoring of these "service institutions."

    This regulation would be but one step in a major political effort to set right the inequality in our economic and social system. Introducing this in no way diminishes the other measures needed, such as a radical shakeup of the taxing formulas.

    Shifting the thrust of economic policy to emphasize -- and actively promote -- the quality of our life is essential, and it's hardly radical or socialist. Are we Americans willing to grasp this?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/curtis...b_1502708.html
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  14. #494
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Plutocracy, Paralysis, Perplexity

    By PAUL KRUGMAN

    Before the Great Recession, I would sometimes give public lectures in which I would talk about rising inequality, making the point that the concentration of income at the top had reached levels not seen since 1929. Often, someone in the audience would ask whether this meant that another depression was imminent.

    Well, whaddya know?

    Did the rise of the 1 percent (or, better yet, the 0.01 percent) cause the Lesser Depression we’re now living through? It probably contributed. But the more important point is that inequality is a major reason the economy is still so depressed and unemployment so high. For we have responded to crisis with a mix of paralysis and confusion — both of which have a lot to do with the distorting effects of great wealth on our society.

    Put it this way: If something like the financial crisis of 2008 had occurred in, say, 1971 — the year Richard Nixon declared that “I am now a Keynesian in economic policy” — Washington would probably have responded fairly effectively. There would have been a broad bipartisan consensus in favor of strong action, and there would also have been wide agreement about what kind of action was needed.

    But that was then. Today, Washington is marked by a combination of bitter partisanship and intellectual confusion — and both are, I would argue, largely the result of extreme income inequality.

    On partisanship: The Congressional scholars Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein have been making waves with a new book acknowledging a truth that, until now, was unmentionable in polite circles. They say our political dysfunction is largely because of the transformation of the Republican Party into an extremist force that is “dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.” You can’t get cooperation to serve the national interest when one side of the divide sees no distinction between the national interest and its own partisan triumph.

    So how did that happen? For the past century, political polarization has closely tracked income inequality, and there’s every reason to believe that the relationship is causal. Specifically, money buys power, and the increasing wealth of a tiny minority has effectively bought the allegiance of one of our two major political parties, in the process destroying any prospect for cooperation.

    And the takeover of half our political spectrum by the 0.01 percent is, I’d argue, also responsible for the degradation of our economic discourse, which has made any sensible discussion of what we should be doing impossible.

    Disputes in economics used to be bounded by a shared understanding of the evidence, creating a broad range of agreement about economic policy. To take the most prominent example, Milton Friedman may have opposed fiscal activism, but he very much supported monetary activism to fight deep economic slumps, to an extent that would have put him well to the left of center in many current debates.

    Now, however, the Republican Party is dominated by doctrines formerly on the political fringe. Friedman called for monetary flexibility; today, much of the G.O.P. is fanatically devoted to the gold standard. N. Gregory Mankiw of Harvard University, a Romney economic adviser, once dismissed those claiming that tax cuts pay for themselves as “charlatans and cranks”; today, that notion is very close to being official Republican doctrine.
    As it happens, these doctrines have overwhelmingly failed in practice. For example, conservative goldbugs have been predicting vast inflation and soaring interest rates for three years, and have been wrong every step of the way. But this failure has done nothing to dent their influence on a party that, as Mr. Mann and Mr. Ornstein note, is “unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science.”

    And why is the G.O.P. so devoted to these doctrines regardless of facts and evidence? It surely has a lot to do with the fact that billionaires have always loved the doctrines in question, which offer a rationale for policies that serve their interests. Indeed, support from billionaires has always been the main thing keeping those charlatans and cranks in business. And now the same people effectively own a whole political party.

    Which brings us to the question of what it will take to end this depression we’re in.

    Many pundits assert that the U.S. economy has big structural problems that will prevent any quick recovery. All the evidence, however, points to a simple lack of demand, which could and should be cured very quickly through a combination of fiscal and monetary stimulus.

    No, the real structural problem is in our political system, which has been warped and paralyzed by the power of a small, wealthy minority. And the key to economic recovery lies in finding a way to get past that minority’s malign influence.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/op...erplexity.html
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  15. #495
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    It's funny to me, to see today's hardcore Republicans badmouth and ridicule Lincoln, FDR, and Kennedy. Presidents most of us have been tought growing up were some of the greatest American leaders in history. Today's Republicans have thrown them under the bus as "commie socialists". Very sad, imo.

    Also pisses me off that Republicans say the slow economic recovery is Obama's fault, and would've been quicker with McCain, really? How so? What would he have/haven't done different to speed this up? I want to see the magic crystal ball, or at least some facts. Have they seen what's happened WORLDWIDE? Did European countries just "let everything fail"? How about China's own massive bailout program? Does Europe look so much more healthy on recovery? Germany & Iceland might be a few of the only exceptions.
    Last edited by Ghosty; Thu May 10th, 2012 at 11:07 AM.
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  16. #496
    Gold Member Zach929rr's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Funny thing politics are. When bush was in office, the democrats wanted him to bring gas prices down but the republicans said they could do nothing about it. Now Obama says he can do nothing about it while the republicans whine about his energy policies and high gas prices.
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  17. #497
    Senior Member Clovis's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Except it IS his energy polices that are contributing to $4/gal for gas.

    Before he was elected, he stated that this was his intention, that he wanted high gas prices (to make "green" more attractive). To acomplish this his administration has simply denied oil permit after oil permit application.

    No oil for US!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach929rr View Post
    Funny thing politics are. When bush was in office, the democrats wanted him to bring gas prices down but the republicans said they could do nothing about it. Now Obama says he can do nothing about it while the republicans whine about his energy policies and high gas prices.
    "If not us, who? If not now, when?"




  18. #498
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clovis View Post
    Except it IS his energy polices that are contributing to $4/gal for gas.

    Before he was elected, he stated that this was his intention, that he wanted high gas prices (to make "green" more attractive). To acomplish this his administration has simply denied oil permit after oil permit application.

    No oil for US!
    Sorry Justin, already covered in detail in another thread and multiple sources online. Obama's policies, even if they had hindered oil production in the slightest, wouldn't be a drop in the bucket to effect WORLD oil supplies. OPEC, China/India demand, speculators, etc. are the primary cause of $4 prices.

    ALSO, under Obama, American oil production has actual risen over his term. EVEN IF the government did some magic wand waving somehow, to lower gas prices, OPEC would just cut production enough to keep their profits high. Same with Venezuela, Nigeria, etc.

    Those against more drilling note that U.S. oil production has increased by about 15% since Obama took office, and prices have only gone up.
    in 2001, the Bush administration approved only 3,439 permits increasing slightly to 3,802 by 2003. It wasn’t until 2004 that Bush doubled the permits approved, but by they dropped dramatically back down to 4,579 in 2005.

    In 2009 under President Obama, there were 4,487 oil drilling permits approved to drill on federal land and in 2010 there were 4,090 permits issued and finally by 2011 there were 4,244.
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  19. #499
    Nuclear Wessel King Nothing's Avatar
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Kill it with fire! This thread, that is. Lots of fire.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Nothing View Post
    Kill it with fire! This thread, that is. Lots of fire.
    What? Bump this thread, even though it's summer?

    If you insist...


    Controversial Trade Pact Text Leaked, Shows U.S. Trade Officials Have Agreed to Terms That Undermine Obama Domestic Agenda

    PUBLIC CITIZEN PRESS RELEASE
    After Two Years of Closed-Door Negotiations, Trans-Pacific Partnership Text Replicates Alarming Bush Trade Pact Terms That Obama Opposed as Candidate, and Worse
    WASHINGTON, D.C.– A leaktoday of one of the most controversial chapters of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) reveals that extreme provisions have been agreed to by U.S. officials, providing a stark warning about the dangers of “trade” negotiations occurring under conditions of extreme secrecy without press, public or policymaker oversight, Public Citizen said.


    “The outrageous stuff in this leaked text may well be why U.S. trade officials have been so extremely secretive about these past two years of TPP negotiations,” said Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch. “Via closed-door negotiations, U.S. officials are rewriting swaths of U.S. law that have nothing to do with trade and in a move that will infuriate left and right alike have agreed to submit the U.S. government to the jurisdiction of foreign tribunals that can order unlimited payments of our tax dollars to foreign corporations that don’t want to comply with the same laws our domestic firms do.”



    Although the TPP has been branded a “trade” agreement, the leaked text of the pact’s Investment Chapter shows that the TPP would:

    • limit how U.S. federal and state officials could regulate foreign firms operating within U.S. boundaries, with requirements to provide them greater rights than domestic firms;
    • extend the incentives for U.S. firms to offshore investment and jobs to lower-wage countries;
    • establish a two-track legal system that gives foreign firms new rights to skirt U.S. courts and laws, directly sue the U.S. government before foreign tribunals and demand compensation for financial, health, environmental, land use and other laws they claim undermine their TPP privileges; and
    • allow foreign firms to demand compensation for the costs of complying with U.S. financial or environmental regulations that apply equally to domestic and foreign firms.

    While 600 official U.S. corporate advisors have access to TPP texts and have a special role in advising U.S. negotiators, for the public, press and policymakers, this leak provides the first access to one of the prospective TPP’s most controversial chapters. In May, U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), chair of the Senate Finance Committee’s Subcommittee on International Trade, Customs and Global Competitiveness – the committee with jurisdiction over the TPP – filed legislation to open the process after he and his staff were denied access to even the U.S. proposals for the TPP negotiations.



    Last month, U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk defended the unprecedented secrecy of TPP negotiations by noting that when the draft of a major regional trade pact was released previously, it became impossible to finish the deal as then proposed.



    “The top U.S. trade official effectively has said that the administration must keep TPP secret because otherwise it won’t be able to shove this deal past the public and Congress,” said Wallach. “The airing of this one TPP chapter, which greatly favors foreign corporations over domestic businesses and the public interest and exposes us to significant financial liabilities, shows that the whole draft text must be released immediately so it can be reviewed and debated. Absent that, these negotiations must be ended now.”



    The TPP is the first trade pact the Obama administration is negotiating. Today’s leak further complicates the administration’s goal of completing TPP negotiations this fall. Already the TPP timeline was generating political headaches for the Obama re-election campaign, as repeated U.S polling shows that majorities of Democrats, Independents and GOP oppose more NAFTA-style trade deals.



    The TPP may well be the last trade agreement that the U.S. negotiates. This is because TPP, if completed, would have a new feature relative to past U.S. trade pacts: It would remain open for any other country to join later. Last month, USTR Kirk said that he "would love nothing more" than to have China join TPP.


    The TPP offered an opportunity to develop a new model of trade agreement that could deliver the benefits of expanded trade without unduly undermining signatory nations’ domestic public interest policies or establishing special privileges for foreign corporations. President Barack Obama and countless members of Congress campaigned on fixing these investment rules to better protect the public interest. But Public Citizen’s analysis of this text shows that the U.S. positions do not reflect any of the changes thatcandidate Obama pledged when he recognized the threats posed by the NAFTA-style investment provisions in trade agreements.



    The leak also reveals that:

    • Australia has refused to submit to the jurisdiction of the “investor-state” private corporate enforcement foreign tribunal system;
    • U.S. negotiators are alone in seeking to expand this extra-judicial enforcement system to allow the use of foreign tribunals to enforce contracts that foreign investors may have with a government for government procurement or to operate utilities contracts and even related to concessions for natural resources on federal lands;
    • Other countries are proposing safeguards for financial regulation and limits to the corporate tribunals that the U.S. has not supported.

    Public Citizen’s analysis of the leaked text and guided tour through its provisions can be found here.
    ++
    BREAKING: For an analysis of these developments by Zach Carter of The Huffington Post, click here.

    Carville: What if the rich lost 40% of their wealth?

    By James Carville, CNN Contributor
    updated 11:17 AM EDT, Thu June 14, 2012



    James Carville speculates: What if it had been the rich that lost 40% of their wealth? The outcry would be deafening.

    STORY HIGHLIGHTS

    • Federal Reserve reported the net worth of middle-class Americans fell to 1992 levels
    • James Carville: If the wealthy had suffered as much, there would be national panic
    • He says politicians, clergy, academics, media too often ignore middle class
    • Carville: The scandal is the middle class is shrinking and no one seems to care



    Editor's note: James Carville is a Democratic strategist who serves as a political contributor for CNN, appearing frequently on "The Situation Room" as well as other programs on all CNN networks. He and Stan Greenberg are the co-authors of "It's the Middle Class Stupid" to be published in July by Penguin Press.

    (CNN) -- Let's imagine that yesterday there was a front page story in The New York Times that read the following:

    "The recent economic crisis left the top 1% of Americans in 2010 with no more wealth than in the early 1990s, erasing almost two decades of accumulated prosperity, the Federal Reserve Monday.

    "A hypothetical family richer than the median net worth of the top 1% of the nation's families had a net worth of $77.3 million in 2010, compared with $126.4 million in 2007, the Fed said. The crash of the stock market, in addition to the collapse of housing prices in Greenwich, Connecticut, the Upper East Side of New York City, Beverly Hills, Highland Park in Dallas and the North Shore of Chicago, directly accounted for three-quarters of the loss."

    What do you think the reaction would be to that?

    The elite would call for the suspension of habeas corpus, the government would call out the National Guard, invade Honduras and the Supreme Court would announce that it is in session 24/7 to take any action deemed necessary to help their friends.

    MYB: Family net worth drops nearly 40%
    The Wall Street Journal would have a black border on the newspaper. The Financial Times would go from pink to gray. CNBC would play funeral music for nine months. Steve Schwarzman would compare it to the H-word. Cable networks would roadblock all coverage.

    Minimum wage laws would be suspended, the 40-hour work week would be thrown out, perhaps they would even do away with child labor laws to get productivity up so profits could increase to make up for lost revenue.
    OK, we know that story did not appear in Wednesday's New York Times, and we would certainly agree that a massive loss of wealth in the top 1% would wreak economic havoc on the country. But there was, if anything, a worse story on that front page with only minor variations from our hypothetical scenario.

    The story said that the recent economic crisis left the average American family in 2010 with no more wealth than in the early 1990s, erasing almost two decades of accumulated prosperity, reducing their net worth by almost 40%.

    And the response of the national elite, the people Paul Krugman refers to as "very smart people" or I like to call the "chin-scratchers," was a barely audible whimper.

    To put it bluntly, the middle class in this country has been screwed, blued and tattooed.

    Rising health care costs, job insecurity, declining real estate values, massive cuts to public education and public safety (no Mitt, we don't need fewer police officers, we actually need more of them and yes, the federal government has a large hand in this.)

    It is a depressing state of affairs when about two-thirds of our fellow citizens are caught in an economic trap that is wrecking their lives financially and emotionally.

    And the reaction to all of this has been limp at best.

    The Republicans say that if we just give the rich more tax cuts, it will make everyone's life better -- seems as though we've tried this before, doesn't it?

    The Democrats have done some things that have been helpful, such as payroll tax cuts and the Affordable Care Act, but there is much more work to be done. As far as other institutions around the country, the response has been pathetic.

    Opinion: Why the middle class has taken a big hit

    There is an entire industry devoted to denying that this is even a problem.
    I read a piece written by Andy Kessler in The Wall Street Journal, stating that thanks to "consumption equality," the wealthy work their 60- to 80-hour weeks inventing things for the masses, but there's not much they can buy with their money that the middle class can't afford.

    You can only afford a product, because some rich person invented it for the masses, just like they did with smartphones, hard drives and affordable air travel.

    Who cares if you can't afford to send your children to college or pay for your health insurance premium or what you owe on your house is more than what it's worth? Hey, you can buy them a cell phone, now that they don't cost $4,000, and talk to them as they stand in line for a job interview at McDonald's.

    Where are our nation's institutions that should be raising holy hell about this? Lets start with my own Catholic Church: They are spending all of their time hunting down masturbators and birth-control takers.

    Academics: Have you ever heard of the Princeton Center for Middle Class Studies? Not hardly.

    The press: There is much more coverage on George Zimmerman's wife than on the destruction of the middle class in this country.

    The lobbyists: Give me a break. When was the last time you heard of a lobbyist for the middle class? The point here is that we are reading the most significant economic story of our time and its effect on the psyche of the people who should know better is minimal.

    In the words of Warren Buffett, "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

    The big scandal in America is that our middle class is shrinking, and no one seems to care. Maybe someone somewhere somehow should consider doing something else.
    Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.
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  21. #501
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    And the middle class will just keep getting in more debt. College use to be a way for middle class to get closer to the next tier, but with the inflation rate of tuition and the fact that a bachelors is the new associates I dont see it happenin. The divide will just get larger. Nice article ghost, Thxs.
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by SNAFU View Post
    And the middle class will just keep getting in more debt. College use to be a way for middle class to get closer to the next tier, but with the inflation rate of tuition and the fact that a bachelors is the new associates I dont see it happenin. The divide will just get larger. Nice article ghost, Thxs.
    Np.

    The Divide is already at the point of The Rich and Everyone Else, but the illusion of the "middle class" keeps people from seeing of believing that 99% of us are closer to the bum on the street than we are to the guy making $1.5M tax-free.

    And, now the Rich have somehow convinced the Middle Class to turn against each other, and to somehow fight and squabble over the scraps of nothing while they sit back and laugh...
    Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.
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  23. #503
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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Its nothing new. population control has many names and different tactics.

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    Re: Occupy Wall Street list of demands - are you serious?

    Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.
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