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Thread: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

  1. #1
    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    I know some of you have an interest in astronomy topics, so I thought I'd share this discovery and gloat a little bit. Back in 2003 I began working on the topic of habitability in binary star systems, that is, the possibility of life arising in systems where there are two suns (like Tatooine in Star Wars). The search for planets around other stars had been going for about a decade but all of the efforts had been on looking at single stars (like our solar system), mainly because it was easier. (For some reason, I am always attracted to science problems that are hard and that others want to ignore. I'll leave for another time the discussion of how our model of funding science research makes it very difficult for people like me to get funding to do such work. ) You might think that binary star systems would be very rare, but that is not at all the case. It is likely that most star systems are binaries. They are very common. If you are going to understand habitability in the galaxy, you have to understand how it works in binaries.

    In 2003, I proposed to the NASA Exobiology (life outside the solar system) program to model the formation and evolution of planetary systems in which the planets orbited the binary star pair (rather than just orbiting one of the stars, with the second star very distant, a much easier and much more boring theoretical problem). The response by the reviewers was that such systems were "extreme" and unlikely to be interesting. Subsequent resubmissions of the proposal met with the same fate.

    Yesterday a paper was published in the journal "Science" about a binary system called Kepler-16, because it was discovered with the Kepler satellite. It is an eclipsing binary system where the orbital plane is oriented close to edge-on as seen from the Earth so that the stars pass in front of each other, causing the brightness to drop (sort of like a solar eclipse).In Kepler-16 there is a planet orbiting around the two stars and it also passes in front of the stars causing (smaller) eclipses. The way Kepler works is it measures the brightnesses of stars, extremely accurately, so these eclipses are easily seen when you plot the brightness of the star system over time (called the "light curve"). Here is the light curve from the paper (vertical axis is brightness and the horizontal axis is time):



    Now, I realize that this is seriously geeky stuff, but I can only describe that data set as beautiful. Observing with telescopes from the ground, the scatter in the measurements is much higher and we can see the deep star eclipses (blue and yellow) and the deeper planet eclipse (green), but the scatter would be much, much higher and shallower one (red) would be impossible. And I must admit to feeling a great sense of satisfaction in seeing the discovery of a type of system whose importance I championed almost a decade ago while my colleagues dismissed it.

    Interestingly, I did a painting of a similar (but imaginary) system a few weeks back:



    The planet in Kepler-16 is more like Saturn than the imaginary one I painted, but the stars are pretty similar. I guess it's time to do another painting, and maybe time to dust off that old proposal and see if my colleagues have finally opened their eyes.
    Last edited by dirkterrell; Fri Sep 16th, 2011 at 09:07 AM.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    I was just reading that! Pretty interesting but also lame at the same time (That they thought your proposal was NOT going to be interesting)
    First rule of the internet: *bleep* you and everything you stand for. Second rule of the internet: FKZOR U AND RRYTHING U STND FR!

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    Senior Member vort3xr6's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Nice work Dirk. It must have felt pretty good to see that hit the news. I saw it last night.

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    Junior Member Wheezy's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Good info thanks man.

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    Senior Member Moderator Jmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    I have no idea what you're talking about...


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    Jenny's Pet Monkey Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Awesome news, I was actually reading a similar article about this elsewhere.

    Anecdote: When I was in gradschool working on my PhD I kept submitting a proposal to my Principle Investigator (Head of the Program) and he kept turning it down saying it wasn't a feasible study.

    While I'm no longer in that field a colleague of mine sent me a copy of my some recent work from my former PI--and it was largely the same stuff I'd suggested years ago--so things do, occasionally, come full circle...if I were you, I'd dust off that submission and try again, maybe someone's listening this time...

    BTW: What do you use to paint those terrific images? Is that actual paint on canvas and scanned or is that all digital work?
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    Senior Member Moderator Jmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    I should say that I understand most of what you're talking about and you gotta love it when things come back like that. And that is a cool painting.

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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaclis View Post
    I was just reading that! Pretty interesting but also lame at the same time (That they thought your proposal was NOT going to be interesting)
    Yeah, if you run with the herd, funding is a lot easier (since the herd decides what gets funded). But I prefer to do research that is on topics that others look past. I guess an apropos analogy might be with adventure riders. Yeah, that trail is tough and hard to ride, but there might be something incredible at the end of it...
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Anecdote: When I was in gradschool working on my PhD I kept submitting a proposal to my Principle Investigator (Head of the Program) and he kept turning it down saying it wasn't a feasible study.
    I know the feeling. I did something in my dissertation about 20 years ago, almost as an afterthought, that people are just starting to take an interest in (mainly because the observing technology has come along enough to test the theoretical work I did). I even submitted a proposal to the National Science Foundation in their "innovative" research program but I was told that it was "too far ahead of its time." Maybe that's another one I should dust off.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    BTW: What do you use to paint those terrific images? Is that actual paint on canvas and scanned or is that all digital work?
    I work almost exclusively digital these days since that is more productive for my stop-start style of doing things. That one was done in Terragen 2. A lot of times I'll use multiple tools (Terragen, Painter, Photoshop, etc) to get the exact effect I want but that one was to see if I could get cumulonimbus clouds to look right without any touch-up by hand. I think it turned out pretty well.
    Last edited by dirkterrell; Fri Sep 16th, 2011 at 01:20 PM.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Jenny's Pet Monkey Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    I even submitted a proposal to the National Science Foundation in their "innovative" research program but I was told that it was "too far ahead of its time." Maybe that's another one I should dust off.
    I would dust it off and send it in. Fwiw, I was actually an NSF Doctoral Research Fellow, and the NSF is super-conservative, not the radical, forward-looking think-tank people assume them to be (or at least as I assumed them to be when I got the gig).

    Once something is "accepted" by the majority of mainstream researchers, then they'll put money to it (or would, now that everything's being cut I'm not sure there's much left to go around). I suppose it's because they constantly have to justify why and where they're spending "government money" and they can't have projects that are so on-the-cusp that they may not yield viable results for years or even decades...if at all.

    Send in your proposal, can't hurt, right?
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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I would dust it off and send it in. Fwiw, I was actually an NSF Doctoral Research Fellow
    Interesting, I was a NASA Graduate Research Fellow. I've served on lots of NSF review panels and find the organization not so much conservative, but the review panel members tend to be to narrow-minded and too "cliquey". It's more of a who-you-know kind of thing than the actual merits of the proposed research. And if you work in a small field like I do, it's hard to break through when there is so little money to go around. Once everybody selects the work of their buddies, there's nothing left. But, let's not stink up the nice topic of Kepler-16 with all of that.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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    Jenny's Pet Monkey Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    Interesting, I was a NASA Graduate Research Fellow. I've served on lots of NSF review panels and find the organization not so much conservative, but the review panel members tend to be to narrow-minded and too "cliquey". It's more of a who-you-know kind of thing than the actual merits of the proposed research. And if you work in a small field like I do, it's hard to break through when there is so little money to go around. Once everybody selects the work of their buddies, there's nothing left. But, let's not stink up the nice topic of Kepler-16 with all of that.
    Yeah, I suppose the cliquey nature dovetails with what I called a lack of "going beyond the mainstream"--perhaps it was the "mainstream" of the clique/who-you-know and that was it.

    But, yes, you're right. Let's drop this dreary topic before it leaves a stain.
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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Since space art came up, I thought I'd share another painting I did recently of the bright star Albireo. Through a telescope or even a pair of binoculars, it resolves into a beautiful double star with blue and orange components (when I did public nights at the UF observatory, the locals got a kick out of it when I called it the Gator star).



    It's actually a triple system (the orange star has a fainter blue companion that you can't resolve when looking at it though the telescope). I thought it would make a nice subject for a painting:

    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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  15. #15
    Senior Member dm_gsxr's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Jeeze, and I only worked at NASA as a system admin


    Good job though. Cool stuff and great pic.

    Carl

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    Senior Member dm_gsxr's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    In reading 2031 Odyssey, Jupiter was turned into a White Dwarf I believe. Do you have a pic with that sort of setup?

    Carl

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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by dm_gsxr View Post
    In reading 2031 Odyssey, Jupiter was turned into a White Dwarf I believe. Do you have a pic with that sort of setup?

    Carl
    I have been working on a painting of Mira which is a binary that contains a white dwarf but it's not finished yet. Here's where it stands at the moment:

    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    I have been working on a painting of Mira which is a binary that contains a white dwarf but it's not finished yet. Here's where it stands at the moment:

    Dirk, what do you use to make/paint these?
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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Here is a CNN article on Kepler-16:

    http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2011...net/?hpt=hp_t2
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

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    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Awesome stuff, as usual, Dr. Dirk!

    Did anyone catch the moonrise sunday night about 7:45, or the moonset Monday morning about 6:45? AWESOME! I got a shot of it Monday, though not the one I wanted because I had to find a safe place to pull over on the way to work and shoot it.
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    Chief Viffer Lifetime Supporter dirkterrell's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Dirk, what do you use to make/paint these?
    See post #10.
    Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing

    "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

    --Thomas Jefferson



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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Quote Originally Posted by dirkterrell View Post
    See post #10.
    Thanks, missed that somehow.

    Definitely looks cool, and I like the pseudo-realism to it all
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  23. #23
    Senior Member dapper's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Nice art work!
    It works! Slow in, Fast out
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    Right-Wing Nut-Job DavidofColorado's Avatar
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    Re: Kepler-16b (extreme geek alert)

    Hello,
    I was wondering something. In a binary star system like the one you are talking about you are not expecting to find a planet that may support life right? I thought if there was a planet that close it would be sling shotted out of the system by the other star. But my imagination is running wild about it too. Not over the numbers you put out because I can't make anything out of it. But the pictures for sure and the idea of a duel star system with a life supporting planet.
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