Counter-Steering

[SlackerATC]

So, I've heard this term tossed around a lot, and I get the basics of it, kinda. Push right to go right, right?

Anyway, my question is, is that a downward push, or a forward push, or a little bit of both?

Or do I have it wrong completely?

[Wrider]

It's a forward push. If you push down all you're doing is attempting to bend your bars lol.
If you want to really get how it works, go into a large parking lot and hit 30 mph, then push one bar forward. Turns the front wheel out, bike wants to keep going straight, so it ends up falling over a little, initiating a lean toward the direction of the bar you pushed.

[SlackerATC]

Ok, that makes sense. I had been pushing downward and leaning. But on the ride home yesterday something made me push forward instead and I was surprised at how smooth it felt. Just want to make sure I'm doing it correctly. Trying to make good habits now.

[dirkterrell]

This reminds me of something I noticed recently that I meant to post something about. I've heard people being uncomfortable with right-hand turns at speed and trying to figure out why. (That discussion might very well have been on this forum but I think I recall that it was the VFR forum.)

One day at the track I noticed that when I counter-steer in left turns, I am pushing with my left hand. When I counter-steer in right turns, I am pulling with my left hand. I had been doing this for years without really thinking about it. That leaves my right hand free to deal solely with throttle inputs, and may at least partly explain why I don't have any issue with right versus left turns. I wonder if others do the same thing?

[Nooch]

I wonder if others do the same thing?

I totally do this. Funny too because I just realized it this past weekend (been alot more focused on the particulars of my technique since I read Total Control). I also noticed that the chickenstrip on the right side of my rear tire is slightly wider than the left. So I suppose there is something to be said about the effectiveness of more proper countersteering as well.

[CaptGoodvibes]

One day at the track I noticed that when I counter-steer in left turns, I am pushing with my left hand. When I counter-steer in right turns, I am pulling with my left hand. I had been doing this for years without really thinking about it. That leaves my right hand free to deal solely with throttle inputs, and may at least partly explain why I don't have any issue with right versus left turns. I wonder if others do the same thing?

[Cornfed]

Read Total Control and Twist of the Wrist I and II, both great books. Then lets go practice.

[Penadam]

Concentrate in dropping your elbows so they're in line with the bars. This will keep you from pushing down. Really (feels like it) lightens up the steering effort.

[Darth Do'Urden]

Concentrate in dropping your elbows so they're in line with the bars. This will keep you from pushing down. Really (feels like it) lightens up the steering effort.

Having your forearms parallel to the ground does indeed lighten up the steering effort as you don't have any weight on the bars, allowing more accurate and near-effortless inputs, which in turn makes for a significantly lighter steering. Arms that are at an angle, locked tight and stiff, will make for much more difficult steering inputs, and can make for a bad situation should you need to really put the bike into a steep lean to avoid a hazard (ask me how I know).

The more I practice keeping my butt in the rear of the seat (easier on a two-piece seat), back straight, toes on the pegs, heels up, and forearms parallel to the ground, the more comfortable and truly "in control" I feel on my bike.

[HOTCARCASS]

Dont forget to use the swell in your tank to assist steering with your knees. This is somthing Ricky Orlando Worked with me on in conjunction with counter steering. Counter steering and pulling with my knees is how he taught me to initiate a turn. Once the bike is falling in he taught me to follow the radius with my bars (Directional steering) and balance with my knees with your forarm across the tank. Example Left hand turn - push with the L hand (counter steer) pull with the R knee and lay the R forarm on the tank to help engage the L shoulder into the turn. Your butt must hover on transistion from one side to the other so that the chasis can be free to respond to the inputs. Be so careful practicing this as your bike will jump from one side to the other with or without you. When you are having trouble getting your bike around turns try these tips they can make a world of difference.
Thanks Ricky

[texlurch]

Not only all that has been said on body position, but don't forget to LOOK where you want to go.

Turning that head into the turn will do wonders for your corners.

[Josh Galster]

You also want to make sure you go WITH the bike and don't cross-up on the bike.

Have you ever had a passenger or been a passenger? What do you tell them to do? Exactly, go with you. And when they don't, how does the bike feel? yeah, shitty, unstable. Same thing when its just the rider. You and the bike want to be 'one' with each other. So make sure you're going with the bike and making that forward push.

I've been teaching with the California Superbike School for 6 years so i'm not just some guy with useful advise.

Josh Galster

[Zviffer]

This reminds me of something I noticed recently that I meant to post something about. I've heard people being uncomfortable with right-hand turns at speed and trying to figure out why.

I thought it's a psychological thing - at least on the street anyway. Blowing a right hander puts you into the oncoming lane, whereas blowing a left hander simply puts you in the rhubarb (at least you hope so). Hence many tend to take right handers a bit more conservatively. I've read elsewhere that it's the opposite with Brits, Aussies and Kiwis who drive on the wrong side of the road.

[bornwildnfree]

It's also very subtle movements. Most of us do not ride track speeds (triple the speed limit +10) on the street so we don't need to lean our upper body AND move our butt wayyy off the side of the bike. Using big movments at slower speeds dips you very aggressively into a corner causing you to have to readjust your line at the apex. Not fun and for me, it made me slow down even more because I wasn't sure what I was doing wrong.

For a left hand turn these days, I push slightly with my left hand, pull slightly with my right hand while bringing my upper body down onto the tank and try and make my helmet line up with my mirror. My butt shifts maybe an inch, but I also push down with my left foot slightly on the peg and flex my hip which pushes the rear tire out farther and increases my lean angle allowing me to take the turn faster. Very subtle movements but I've gone from being dead last and so far behind the pack that they have helmets and jackets off and are almost through their first cigarette by the time i catch up to being 3rd right behind HOTCARCASS and Cornfed.

Start small, with only moving your upper body and counter steering, maybe just wiggling the hips. Big movements are for the track...well maybe HWY 141.

[texlurch]

I tend to move and stick the knee out a bit even on the street just to maintain habits. Plus the bike doesn't have to lean as much meaning unexpected obstacles mid-turn don't become oh shit moments.

[Titus]

Definitely buy & watch the Twist of the Wrist II movie!

It will give you a ton of tech & reality on all your questions.

[tecknojoe]

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II...he+wrist+2+dvd

[Sarge]

What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

[Titus]

What I've always noticed is that it's the right handed people who have the most difficulty making right handed turns, especially new riders, mostly because of the strength and dexterity required of the left hand during right turns. Same principle as trying to write with your left hand, etc.

In addition, I think a lot of new riders tend to not "lock-in" with their legs, so they hold quite a bit of weight with their arms. This makes turning the handlebars and operating the controls even more difficult.

[kawasakirob]

A good way to practice is by simply changing lanes while going down the road. Simple yet effective. Don't over think it !

[#1Townie]

Odds are you are already doing it you just dont realize it.

[vozproto]

It takes VERY little input at speed. A simple forward push is all you need.
When you get into more spirited riding its even less input.

At this point to keep the mechanics of your body in "fine motor skills" in relation to your riding position...
Keep your elbows sticking way out the same way a dirt rider would.
-This allows for more "small" inputs,
-Keeps any head-shake from translating through your body which could otherwise create a tank-slapper siutation
-Allows you to more finely tune the throttle input. Think turning a screw-driver with your forearm twisting rather than breaking your wrist.

[UHATEIT]

I am obviously way off on my understanding as I don't understand pushing the opposite direction of the way you want to turn. I know that is what counter steering is it just sounds weird. On a bicycle if you want to go right you turn the handlebars to the right (push forward with left and pull back with right hand). So motorcycling countersteering makes no sense to me when you push your right hand forward and pulling back with your left when you are trying to make a right hand turn.

I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

[Grant H.]

On a bicycle if you want to go right you turn the handlebars to the right (push forward with left and pull back with right hand).

Not at speeds over 25-30mph on a pedal bike...

Parking lot speeds on a motorcycle are the same, pull back on right to go right. Turning at speed (30+) is push right to turn right.

Go to a big parking lot or a business park on the weekend and play with it.

I am always riding stiff, I have tried to loosen up. I am bad at right hand turns and have to slow WAY the fuck down to make them. I have tried to get as far to the left before the right turn as I can but half the time at completion of my right turn I am either right at the center yellow line and almost into oncoming traffic. I cannot seem to make a right hand turn into the right lane by any means.

Initiate your turn earlier.

By this I mean get left in the turn lane, and start turning earlier.

Start wide (left in turn lane).
Cut close to edge of the road where the road actually changes direction (right in corner).
Finish wide, but not too wide (left side of new lane of traffic).

As far as being loose, yes, you need to be relaxed in the arms/shoulders to ride properly. Carry your weight by using your legs, knees, and abs to hold your body up.

I am a fairly new rider as well (this is my second season to ride, first to own a bike) and I still have to remind myself to ride properly.

Seating posture instructional video that helped me... (once I find the link...)

ETA: Found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfN9Z6IlI0