Ducati/Rossi - Time for a Divorce?

[dirkterrell]

I seem to remember one Mick Doohan doing this at Honda in the 90s. Honda engineers kept trying to do stuff that was "technically superior". And for may other riders, they were right (Big Bang engines, tuned flex chassis, etc.), but Mick put his foot down, got the screamer engine and non-noodly frame back, and proceeded to win championships...

Yep, that's another good example.

Yesterday I finally got the '86 VFR out and was reminded of how accustomed we can be to certain bikes. The first time through a corner, I remembered what it was like on the track with one many years ago, and how much I love the way that thing delivers power in a corner.

I never really did quite come to grips with the power delivery of the I4 750 in the Gixxer. I always felt like I was having to pay way too much attention to the engine speed. But through the first corner on the V4 750, I was thinking "Oh, yeah, this is what I like. Smooth, predictable power no matter what revs I'm at." I wish Honda would make a modern version of that bike. It would be killer, and I'm convinced that a 600cc version would dominate racing.

But Rossi has won championships on just about every kind of bike there is, so I think the issue lies not with him, but with the bike itself. If the goal is to win championships, Ducati needs to start doing what he tells them to do.

[madvlad]

I think they're painfully aware. Several stories I've read basically sum up that Ducati is in a tail spin right now. They're changing so many things, they don't know what is having a positive or negative affect. Almost seems like they're throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I hope they get it sorted out. I really do... I think Rossi/Ducati is a great match and a marketing dream come true. Now, they just need to deliver.

Yea, good things take time for sure.

[kawasakirob]

The BIG!! difference is, Stoner is not Rossi, no one cares what Stoner thinks, he isn't going to go down as the GOAT(greatest of all time, or considered it now) and he doesn't have 9 championships in his pocket either.

One would think the GOAT could ride around such "issues"?

[kawasakirob]

I've never cared really cared for Rossi but respected him. I no longer respect him. He has the capabilities to give Ducati another championship but he's already convinced himself that the Ducati is a pos. The bike not be the best but coupled with his shitty attitude I don't see any winning in his future, and I sure as hell don't see any other teams wanting to scoop him up.

+1

[The Black Knight]

One would think the GOAT could ride around such "issues"?

I'm done trying to explain to you the concept of rider/machine confidence and cohesion.

[Ghost]

I'm done trying to explain to you the concept of rider/machine confidence and cohesion.

+1


What I don't get is why not return to the old winning chassis and just modify it with the current engine/suspension/electronics.

Everything seems to trace back to the CF elements not damping the feedback Rossi wants/needs, so the easiest solution seems to be to shift back to an all-aluminum frame...

[The Black Knight]

+1


What I don't get is why not return to the old winning chassis and just modify it with the current engine/suspension/electronics.

Everything seems to trace back to the CF elements not damping the feedback Rossi wants/needs, so the easiest solution seems to be to shift back to an all-aluminum frame...

You'd think bringing back the old trellis frame chassis would pay off in big dividends.

[Ghost]

You'd think bringing back the old trellis frame chassis would pay off in big dividends.

Yep. Going back to something that won and that they've already sunk tons of R&D into would seem to make the most sense.

But I think Ducati's too bent on trying to prove that they're as technologically cutting-edge as anyone else, so they're trying to force the CF to work--when it clearly isn't.

[rybo]

You'd think bringing back the old trellis frame chassis would pay off in big dividends.

The trellis frame had it's demons too. Because they were hand welded the variability from frame to frame was really pretty big. The difference between the "A" and the "B" bikes was sometimes big enough that the riders would have crews rebuild the "A" bike before going back on track leaving the "B" bike set up for rain.


I honestly believe that the problem here is that Ducati is at the "bleeding" edge of MotoGP development.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's I raced bicycles. A lot. At that time there was a materials debate about what material made the ideal bicycle frame. Steel, Aluminum, Titanium and Carbon Fiber all made appearances at the world level of bicycle racing in those years. Fast forward 20 years and Carbon is the ONLY material represented at the world level of bicycle racing, with the exception of some of the Time Trial bikes which haven't changed in design in many years and tend to get "recycled"

My point being - and I'd bet $1 on this, that in 10 years ALL GP chassis will be made from CF and we'll be seeing it trickle into production bikes in the next 15-20 years. CF is a wonderful material to work with in stressed load applications because it can be engineered to handle stresses in specific directions and flex in specific ways. The problem with it currently is that it takes too much time to go from re-design to implementation for the GP timeline and what works on the computer doesn't always work on the racetrack. Also - once you get the design work done, manufacturing is relatively cheap and highly consistent compared to metals.

Now - who feels like arguing with me?

[Ghost]

The trellis frame had it's demons too. Because they were hand welded the variability from frame to frame was really pretty big. The difference between the "A" and the "B" bikes was sometimes big enough that the riders would have crews rebuild the "A" bike before going back on track leaving the "B" bike set up for rain.


I honestly believe that the problem here is that Ducati is at the "bleeding" edge of MotoGP development.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's I raced bicycles. A lot. At that time there was a materials debate about what material made the ideal bicycle frame. Steel, Aluminum, Titanium and Carbon Fiber all made appearances at the world level of bicycle racing in those years. Fast forward 20 years and Carbon is the ONLY material represented at the world level of bicycle racing, with the exception of some of the Time Trial bikes which haven't changed in design in many years and tend to get "recycled"

My point being - and I'd bet $1 on this, that in 10 years ALL GP chassis will be made from CF and we'll be seeing it trickle into production bikes in the next 15-20 years. CF is a wonderful material to work with in stressed load applications because it can be engineered to handle stresses in specific directions and flex in specific ways. The problem with it currently is that it takes too much time to go from re-design to implementation for the GP timeline and what works on the computer doesn't always work on the racetrack. Also - once you get the design work done, manufacturing is relatively cheap and highly consistent compared to metals.

Now - who feels like arguing with me?

That may all be true, but it doesn't solve the problem at hand--the current CF bike doesn't work for Rossi, so why not ditch it?

Yes, in time it may be the best/only thing out there, but for now why not go back to a winning formula instead of pushing the envelope and consistently failing?

In your timeline of 10-20 years (and I'd actually 10 is more realistic) there will be new riders who will know nothing but the CF frame (and electric motors and w/e other "future" we're stuck with) but for now, for 2012-2014/5 why not go back to what worked and get back to winning?

As was pointed out, the Honda NR bikes were heralded as "The Future" and we're in 2012 and I'm not seeing any oval-piston bikes on tracks or in showrooms...

And, for all we know, maybe the lack of feedback and frame-tuning will be like the aluminum, titanium and steel frame experiments of your bicycle racing--they were tried and then dropped.

I think CF is a superior material, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes a better bike if the bike made of superior material can't do what it needs to do--provide the necessary feedback and feel to win races.

So, you're point may be valid, but waiting for 10+ years of CF frame development doesn't address the current issue and isn't an immediate solution.

[rybo]

So, you're point may be valid, but waiting for 10+ years of CF frame development doesn't address the current issue and isn't an immediate solution.

So play for the quarterly report, and not for the long term?


I actually believe the problem with the Ducati to be the engine - not the frame or the material it's made from.

The configuration of the 90 degree engine prevents them from mounting it as far forward in the chassis as they want to. This means the weight distribution of the bike isn't as far over the front wheel as they really want it to be. My opinion is reinforced by the photos and articles quoted above saying that Casey Stoner's riding style puts more weight on the front of the bike than Valentino's does. They have even addressed the issue, to some extent, in the 1199 - where they have tilted the engine significantly back from it's orientation in the 1098 to allow the engine to move forward in the chassis. At the GP level this isn't going to be enough, they have to significantly narrow the angle of the vee in order to provide greater flexibility in engine mounting locations if they are going to get adequate weight onto the front wheel.

I even encountered this problem on my 748 race bike when I tried to mount triple clamps that had a shorter offset, which may have produced a desirable handling trait. Once the short offset triples were mounted, with the race tire on the bike under hard braking the front tire would contact the front cylinder head. No bueno.

Change the engine - this armchair engineer doesn't think the frame is the problem.

[The Black Knight]

Now - who feels like arguing with me?

That may all be true, but it doesn't solve the problem at hand--the current CF bike doesn't work for Rossi, so why not ditch it?

Yes, in time it may be the best/only thing out there, but for now why not go back to a winning formula instead of pushing the envelope and consistently failing?

In your timeline of 10-20 years (and I'd actually 10 is more realistic) there will be new riders who will know nothing but the CF frame (and electric motors and w/e other "future" we're stuck with) but for now, for 2012-2014/5 why not go back to what worked and get back to winning?

As was pointed out, the Honda NR bikes were heralded as "The Future" and we're in 2012 and I'm not seeing any oval-piston bikes on tracks or in showrooms...

And, for all we know, maybe the lack of feedback and frame-tuning will be like the aluminum, titanium and steel frame experiments of your bicycle racing--they were tried and then dropped.

I think CF is a superior material, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes a better bike if the bike made of superior material can't do what it needs to do--provide the necessary feedback and feel to win races.

So, you're point may be valid, but waiting for 10+ years of CF frame development doesn't address the current issue and isn't an immediate solution.

Rybo,

My comments would be the similar to what Ghost posted. While carbon fiber may be the wave of the future, it certainly isn't cutting edge right now. I get the fact that for all it's strengths Carbon Fiber still falls short in terms of giving the rider feedback.

Carbon Fiber is different in say Formula 1, whereas the driver doesn't really need the feedback from the road as much as a MotoGP rider does. In F1, you've got four BIG FAT tires, massive down force created by state of the art aerodynamics and an engine management system and car telemetry computer to tell the driver(and team) what the car is doing.

MotoGP bikes don't have the luxury of producing 4.5G's of down force, they are getting close to 2.5g's(from what I've read) yet that's still not close to the 5g's F1 cars produce. The quicker an F1 car goes the more down force is produced, hence planting the car to the pavement. On a MotoGP bike, the same rule applies, but the rider has to be able to feel the road through the bike. The rider will be able to tell when he's running the bike close to the edge of performance. He's going to know through the chassis that the bike is on it's boiling point of losing it.

In an F1 car, no one cares if you take a mild spin off the track, you just get right back on. On a MotoGP bike, even the slightest lowside with no damage sustained by rider or bike can still be catastrophic in terms of winning a race or finishing it in 10th place.

If Valentino Rossi says he can't feel what the bike is saying, I'm pretty sure he means it. His confidence in the bike(and not his abilities) is shaken as he doesn't know how it's going to react at race pace. At this point, the one thing he knows for sure is it will react like dog shit, that part he knows for sure.

You of all people(an MRA racer) should know how a bike talks back to you. Even myself having done many track days in the past, knew when my Gixxer was feeling strong with tons of mojo and when also she just wasn't feeling it and I knew not to push her that day. The one day I did push her was when I went off PMI in T5. I was tired, it was very hot that day and I wasn't listening to the bike. She and I both needed a rest but I had to be Mr. dumbass and push it. I learned from that mistake. Just as every racer, Rossi included with their many crashes, slides and complete failures with the bike have.

Rossi wants to win, not find out how many times the bike can put him on his ass....

[Filo]

Carbon fiber, carbon fiber. Unless I missed something, the GP12 has an aluminum frame...

[kawasakirob]

Good luck to Rossi in the upcoming races. They will tell alot. I hope that if some of the rumors come true, Rossi will hold his head high and walk like the champion he is, without pouring more salt in the wound(s). IF not, I think it may have a dramatic affect on his future career no matter what form or type of racing he goes into. Rossi is a highly decorated racer with nothing but speed in his blood...but so is Ducati. I am sure that none of the people involved could ever imagine the season(s) unfolding like this. So what...shit happens. Try to move forward. With a name like Ducati, you can not help but think they are trying to address these issues, and with a name like Rossi, well, you demand the best

[kawasakirob]

Soooooo.....after 7am Sunday morning is this thread going to kick back up again?

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

Carbon Fiber is different in say Formula 1, whereas the driver doesn't really need the feedback from the road as much as a MotoGP rider does. In F1, you've got four BIG FAT tires, massive down force created by state of the art aerodynamics and an engine management system and car telemetry computer to tell the driver(and team) what the car is doing.

MotoGP bikes don't have the luxury of producing 4.5G's of down force, they are getting close to 2.5g's(from what I've read) yet that's still not close to the 5g's F1 cars produce. The quicker an F1 car goes the more down force is produced, hence planting the car to the pavement. On a MotoGP bike, the same rule applies, but the rider has to be able to feel the road through the bike. The rider will be able to tell when he's running the bike close to the edge of performance. He's going to know through the chassis that the bike is on it's boiling point of losing it.

In an F1 car, no one cares if you take a mild spin off the track, you just get right back on. On a MotoGP bike, even the slightest lowside with no damage sustained by rider or bike can still be catastrophic in terms of winning a race or finishing it in 10th place.

If Valentino Rossi says he can't feel what the bike is saying, I'm pretty sure he means it. His confidence in the bike(and not his abilities) is shaken as he doesn't know how it's going to react at race pace. At this point, the one thing he knows for sure is it will react like dog shit, that part he knows for sure.

You of all people(an MRA racer) should know how a bike talks back to you. Even myself having done many track days in the past, knew when my Gixxer was feeling strong with tons of mojo and when also she just wasn't feeling it and I knew not to push her that day. The one day I did push her was when I went off PMI in T5. I was tired, it was very hot that day and I wasn't listening to the bike. She and I both needed a rest but I had to be Mr. dumbass and push it. I learned from that mistake. Just as every racer, Rossi included with their many crashes, slides and complete failures with the bike have.

Rossi wants to win, not find out how many times the bike can put him on his ass....

Actually, it's more complicated than that. The F1 drivers need to feel things probably as much, but the thing with F1 is that you make the chassis as stif as possible, take the chassis out of the equation as far as suspension action goes, and then tune the suspension. They can do this because the wheels always stay perpendicular to the ground. For motorcycles, since the lean, and at full lean the suspension cannot absorb the bumps, you must now "tune" the chassis. So, you need it stiff in the vertical plane so the suspension can do it's job, but give it some flex in the torsional mode to allow it to absorb bumps at full lean. THAT is what makes it so difficult to design and build a racing motorcycle.

[Filo]

News from Jerez - Rossi 2nd fastest in the wet/dry/wet/dry

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Apr/120427.htm

[Ghost]

Carbon fiber, carbon fiber. Unless I missed something, the GP12 has an aluminum frame...

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/176..._new_gp12.html

After several years of unpredictable handling from its MotoGP prototype, Ducati are confident they have 'turned the corner' with the all new GP12, to be raced by Valentino Rossi and Nicky Hayden during the debut season of 1000cc competition.

Ducati's introduction of a carbon-fibre frame, stressed engine and MotoGP's single-tyre rule were among the causes touted for complex handling issues that only 2007 world champion Casey Stoner could overcome.

But even the super-talented Australian was caught out from time to time and when his 2011 replacement, MotoGP legend Valentino Rossi, struggled with the same front-end issues Ducati left no stone unturned in seeking a complete solution.

Major revisions introduced during last season seemed to miss the mark, but they were part of a learning process that culminated in the production of Ducati's first MotoGP machine to feature a twin-spar aluminium frame (unstressed engine).

That's the same frame concept with which Rossi won a record 79 premier-class races for Yamaha and Honda, although Ducati's unique carbon fibre swing-arm remains.

An initial version of the GP12 was tested by Rossi at Valencia last November, with a second '90% new' specification only completing its first laps in mid-January. Rossi and Hayden then rode the new machine for the first time during the Sepang test.

Speaking during Thursday's final day, Ducati Corse general manager Filippo Preziosi wouldn't divulge which of the many technical changes - including weight distribution and geometry - had finally cured the front-end problems, but did speak frankly about the factory's sense of relief.

“This test was mainly focussed on if the bike is better in the front and I can say that it is,” declared Preziosi, making his first visit to the Malaysian Grand Prix circuit.

“We have learnt that the ideas we had, regarding the reason why the bike was not giving the rider the right feedback and turning in the right way into the corner, were correct. It was not easy! These ideas were something we believed, but there is a big difference between believing and knowing...

[Filo]

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/176..._new_gp12.html

My point is that THIS YEAR'S GP12 bike (which many people have been discussing in this thread) is aluminum - see the fourth paragraph of your quoted article. I know the GP11 was carbon fiber. It is difficult this year to blame the carbon fiber frame when the frame is aluminum.

[rybo]

My point is that THIS YEAR'S GP12 bike (which many people have been discussing in this thread) is aluminum - see the fourth paragraph of your quoted article. I know the GP11 was carbon fiber. It is difficult this year to blame the carbon fiber frame when the frame is aluminum.

To which I say - the engine is the problem - see above.

[kawasakirob]

Yep, both Rossi and Hayden on aluminum frames

[MRA 32]

Loading the front end is very important and the engine+rider help balance this. Ducati needs to narrow the angle of the V or go inline to move the engine forward. I have ridden a 90 degree twin and it handles very different than an parallel twin, single, or inline four.

Just because they now have an aluminum frame don't mean anything. They may be too stiff, too soft, or a combination. They need to shorten the motor and get the right amount of stiffness along with some frame flex. Then Rossi will be back up front.

There is one thing important that is being overlooked here: When Rossi helped develop the Honda and Yamaha there was a lot more time allowed for team testing. The rules have restricted what teams can do and Ducati sure could use more track testing time. Every weekend is a new test for Ducati/Rossi.

[bluedogok]

I think the on-track racing has suffered from the restrictions in the amount of testing that teams can do in the off-season, it affects all forms of racing. I get a bit tired of watching the first quarter of the season become testing sessions because they didn't have things sorted out before the season starts. I realize they can;t go back to the days of unlimited testing but with what many teams have spent on computer simulations they could have had much more meaningful track time to physically test the bikes. Computer simulators can only do so much, it can't test all the assemblies for potential problems.

[The Black Knight]

I think the on-track racing has suffered from the restrictions in the amount of testing that teams can do in the off-season, it affects all forms of racing. I get a bit tired of watching the first quarter of the season become testing sessions because they didn't have things sorted out before the season starts. I realize they can;t go back to the days of unlimited testing but with what many teams have spent on computer simulations they could have had much more meaningful track time to physically test the bikes. Computer simulators can only do so much, it can't test all the assemblies for potential problems.

Exactly the computers can't simulate how a rider is going to react with the bike. Ultimately the rider has to have some sort of chemistry with the bike or he will fail.