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Thread: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

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    Gold Member Zach929rr's Avatar
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    Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    http://www.newschannel5.com/story/18...or-profit-case

    MONTEREY, Tenn. -- "If somebody told me this happened to them, I absolutely would not believe this could happen in America."
    That was the reaction of a New Jersey man who found out just how risky it can be to carry cash through Tennessee.
    For more than a year, NewsChannel 5 Investigates has been shining a light on a practice that some call "policing for profit."
    See previous stories:
    "NC5 Investigates: Policing For Profit"
    In this latest case, a Monterey police officer took $22,000 off the driver -- even though he had committed no crime.
    "You live in the United States, you think you have rights -- and apparently you don't," said George Reby.
    As a professional insurance adjuster, Reby spends a lot of time traveling from state to state. But it was on a trip to a conference in Nashville last January that he got a real education in Tennessee justice.
    "I never had any clue that they thought they could take my money legally," Reby added. "I didn't do anything wrong."
    Reby was driving down Interstate 40, heading west through Putnam County, when he was stopped for speeding.
    A Monterey police officer wanted to know if he was carrying any large amounts of cash.
    "I said, 'Around $20,000,'" he recalled. "Then, at the point, he said, 'Do you mind if I search your vehicle?' I said, 'No, I don't mind.' I certainly didn't feel I was doing anything wrong. It was my money."
    That's when Officer Larry Bates confiscated the cash based on his suspicion that it was drug money.
    "Why didn't you arrest him?" we asked Bates.
    "Because he hadn't committed a criminal law," the officer answered.
    Bates said the amount of money and the way it was packed gave him reason to be suspicious.
    "The safest place to put your money if it's legitimate is in a bank account," he explained. "He stated he had two. I would put it in a bank account. It draws interest and it's safer."
    "But it's not illegal to carry cash," we noted.
    "No, it's not illegal to carry cash," Bates said. "Again, it's what the cash is being used for to facilitate or what it is being utilized for."
    NewsChannel 5 Investigates noted, "But you had no proof that money was being used for drug trafficking, correct? No proof?"
    "And he couldn't prove it was legitimate," Bates insisted.
    Bates is part of a system that, NewsChannel 5 Investigates has discovered, gives Tennessee police agencies the incentive to take cash off of out-of-state drivers. If they don't come back to fight for their money, the agency gets to keep it all.
    "This is a taking without due process," said Union City attorney John Miles.
    A former Texas prosecutor and chairman of the Obion County Tea Party, Miles has seen similar cases in his area.
    He said that, while police are required to get a judge to sign off on a seizure within five days, state law says that hearing "shall be ex parte" -- meaning only the officer's side can be heard.
    That's why George Reby was never told that there was a hearing on his case.
    "It wouldn't have mattered because the judge would have said, 'This says it shall be ex parte. Sit down and shut up. I'm not to hear from you -- by statute," Miles added.
    George Reby said that he told Monterey officers that "I had active bids on EBay, that I was trying to buy a vehicle. They just didn't want to hear it."
    In fact, Reby had proof on his computer.
    But the Monterey officer drew up a damning affidavit, citing his own training that "common people do not carry this much U.S. currency."
    Read Officer Bates' affidavit
    "On the street, a thousand-dollar bundle could approximately buy two ounces of cocaine," Bates told NewsChannel 5 Investigates.
    "Or the money could have been used to buy a car," we observed.
    "It's possible," he admitted.
    NewsChannel 5 Investigates asked Bates if Reby had told him that he was trying to buy a car?
    "He did," the officer acknowledged.
    "But you did not include that in your report," we noted.
    "If it's not in there, I didn't put it in there."
    So why did he leave that out?
    "I don't know," the officer said.
    Bates also told the judge the money was hidden inside "a tool bag underneath trash to [deter] law enforcement from locating it."
    "That's inaccurate," Reby said. "I pulled out the bag and gave it to him."
    And even though there was no proof that Reby was involved in anything illegal, Bates' affidavit portrays him as a man with a criminal history that included an arrest for possession of cocaine.
    That was 20-some years ago," the New Jersey man insisted.
    "Were you convicted?" we wanted to know.
    "No, I wasn't convicted," he answered.
    But Officer Bates says that arrest -- which he acknowledged was old -- was still part of the calculation to take Reby's money.
    "Am I going to use it? Yes, I'm going to use it because he's been charged with it in the past -- regardless of whether it's 10 or 15 years ago," he said.
    Attorney John Miles said he's frustrated with attitudes toward Tennessee's civil forfeiture laws, which make such practices legal.
    "We are entitled not to be deprived of our property without due process of law, both under the Tennessee Constitution and the federal Constitution -- and nobody cares," Miles said.
    "Nobody cares."
    This year, state lawmakers debated a bill to create a special committee to investigate these "policing for profit" issues. That bill died in the last days of the legislative session.
    After Reby filed an appeal, and after NewsChannel 5 began investigating, the state agreed to return his money -- if he'd sign a statement waiving his constitutional rights and promising not to sue.
    They also made him come all the way from New Jersey, back to Monterey to pick up a check.
    He got the check, but no apology.
    "If they lied about everything in the report, why would they apologize?" Reby said.
    And, with that, he was ready to put Tennessee in his rearview mirror.
    "I really don't want to come back here," he said.
    As for the appeals process, Reby was able to provide us and the state with letters from his employers, showing that he had a legitimate source of income.
    It took him four months to get his money back, but it usually takes a lot longer for most people.
    And that, Miles said, works to the benefit of the police.
    He had two clients where police agreed to drop the cases in exchange for a cut of the money -- $1,000 in one case, $2,000 in another. In both cases, that was less than what they might have paid in attorney fees.
    Miles called that "extortion."
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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    I had to stop reading halfway at work, because I'm getting too pissed off.

    THIS IS AMERICA? I remember seeing that story of the asshole cops in one Texas town that were shaking down drivers illegally. Don't know if they ever got punished. I also don't know if this idea of giving L.E. too much overreaching powers (against our 4th Amend. rights) is worse in Southern/Confed. states, or rampant all over?
    Last edited by Ghosty; Tue May 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Holy shit that is scary stuff. Anyone know if Colorado has a law like that?

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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    That's fuggin horrible, especially this part:


    NewsChannel 5 Investigates noted, "But you had no proof that money was being used for drug trafficking, correct? No proof?"
    "And he couldn't prove it was legitimate," Bates insisted.


    What happened to innocent until proven guilty???
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    and you wonder why we have less and less respect for the law.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    You should have less and less respect for the law-MAKERS who circumvented the 4th Constitutional amendment against unlawful seach and seizure. Time to throw ALL the bums out.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    Time to throw ALL the bums out.
    Good luck with that. Considering we've got the best government (on all sides) that money can buy, and that money will continue to keep the cronies in office, I'm not seeing any way to change things.


    As to Policing For Profit, it's not just TN:

    http://perspicuity.net/MyEssays/PissedOff/tourist1.html

    Last January, NBC's Dateline aired a story about Louisiana's experiment with "Direct Taxation" of travelers of Interstate 10, which are mostly drug runners (as the cops see it) but may include a few tourists. By Direct Taxation I am referring to that form of taxation that has become increasingly popular in the last few years in which private property is directly seized from the citizens without the usual burdensome legal process. The seizing of property has become a significant portion of the economic support of various government agencies, particularly at the state level.
    While I missed that episode of Dateline, fortunately for me and annoyingly to the politicians of Louisiana, they ran the episode again on August 22, 1997, which is where much of the material in this report comes from (see References below). For a short online report, click check out this essay.
    The Dateline Episodes

    The show starts off with Stone Phillips, one of the more tolerable of the TV Talking Heads, providing this disturbing introduction:
    "Imagine a place where Police stop you in your car for no apparent reason and interrogate you. They may seize your property, your money, your car, strip search you and throw you in jail. And you've done nothing wrong. If this sounds like a foreign dictatorship or some Orwellian nightmare, it's not. It's happened right here in America." (Well Stone, you need to get out more often. Actually, when I heard this introduction, the first place I thought of was the USA, where this practice has become a routine practice since the start of the "Drug War" hustle.)
    The show goes on with John Larson, NBC reporter, recounting how the Louisiana police routinely stop cars on Interstate 10 (mostly those going west based on the theory that while the drugs go east, the money goes west and catching drug runners is not really all that much fun!). The activity is best illustrated by the event in which Ms. Cheryl Sanders is introduced to the practice:
    LARSON: (Voiceover) Cheryl Sanders was on her way to California to visit her mother for Christmas when police stopped her on Interstate 10, claiming she was speeding and had failed to use her turn signal -- what they called improper lane usage. But instead of giving her a traffic ticket, police from the town of Sulfur, Louisiana, took her to jail and made her disrobe. Ms. SANDERS: I'm standing there naked and she goes through my clothes and checks them all.
    LARSON: (Voiceover) Police accused her of being a drug trafficker and ordered her strip searched.
    Ms. SANDERS: And for what exactly, for what? For something -- because they wanted my car.
    LARSON: (Voiceover) Her car was a white Lincoln Towncar -- all Sanders says she had left from her recent divorce. But citing Louisiana's tough drug forfeiture law, police seized it. The only odd thing is, there were no drugs on Cheryl, no drugs in the car.
    Ms. SANDERS: Then they said, 'Well, you're free to go now, but we're keeping your car and find your own way home from Louisiana.'
    Mr. TOM LORENZI (Attorney): I never believed that we would get to this point.
    LARSON: (Voiceover) Tom Lorenzi is a lawyer who defends many of the people the police pull over.
    Mr. LORENZI: The people have this belief that before the state can do something to you it has to prove that you committed a crime, but under the forfeiture law, that's not the case.
    LARSON: It's innocent until proven guilty?
    Mr. LORENZI: No, it's guilty until proven innocent. What happens now is, without ever having to prove anything, they can take it. Now, it's up to you to come and get it.
    LARSON: They don't have to prove anything?
    Mr. LORENZI: They don't have to prove anything. They have to prove what they call probable cause. Well, probable cause is precious little, trust me.
    LARSON: (Voiceover) In Cheryl's case, probable cause was what police claimed was a false bottom in the trunk of her car -- a small two and a half inch space that police say could have - could have - been used to conceal narcotics.
    [Back to Ms. Sanders]
    Ms. SANDERS: I've never been in trouble in my life.
    LARSON: (Voiceover) There were no narcotics inside, not even a trace. Cheryl had purchased the car used, and says she never saw the compartment. Yet police accused her of a crime: conspiracy to possess over a pound of cocaine. In a court hearing a month later, police admitted they had no evidence.
    [. . .]
    LARSON: (Voiceover) Cheryl Sanders also decided to fight back. She had to post a bond equal to the value of her car - $7,500, just to begin the process of trying to get her own car back. She took a bus back to Louisiana and hired an attorney. Her legal battle took seven months.
    But her fight had been so expensive, she had to sell the car to pay off her legal bills. The only transportation she has left is a bicycle.
    (Sanders driving car; Sanders opening garage and walking to bicycle) .
    Ms. SANDERS: I can't imagine that this still happens in America. I just can't imagine it.
    (While the state couldn't come up with any evidence to prove that Ms. Sanders (or her car) had did anything wrong, it still cost her $4,000 to get her car back.)
    Other segments of the show are particularly illuminating in how politicians and police feel about this disgusting activity. Some quotes:
    Sheriff EDWARDS: We're not here to violate anybody's constitutional rights. We're -- we are waging a war on drugs.
    When Louisiana Governor Mike Foster was asked if he saw nothing wrong with the judges' getting 20 percent of the seized loot, he replied,
    Gov. FOSTER: Well, unfortunately or fortunately, in this country, we have to assume that we have an honest judiciary, so I don't see anything wrong with that...You get back to whether you have any -- any trust in the integrity of the law enforcement and the judicial system of the state. I do.
    The Rewards of Forfeiture and Seizure

    Forfeiture and Seizure has become an increasingly popular activity of the "law enforcement" agencies of both federal and state governments. It has the very lucrative (for the state) characteristic in that the police can take your property with little legal justification or process and it is your problem and your expense to get it back. Published articles on this activity state that typically 80 percent of the cases never go to court -- which is a great savings to the state (and you, the taxpayer!).

    • Why do most cases not go to court?

      Quite simple. When the state takes your possessions or money, to get it back, you have to file suit. This can be very expensive, often more expensive than the value of what may have been stolen from you. It would be irrational for you to spend $15,000 in legal fees to get a $10,000 automobile back. Not only that, just challenging the state can result in your ass being thrown in jail -- in the case of Ms. Bryant who resisted arrest from a policeman in plain clothes in an unmarked car!
      How do they get away from such an obvious violation of the Constitution?

      Technically, they are not violating the Constitution. Ancient British laws allowed the prosecution of animals and objects that somehow harmed a human. When the Drug War started, some clever federal lawmakers took advantage of this obscure legal precedent and pasted it into our law books. The states quickly followed suit. That is why the title of a typical suit processed under this law looks like, "United States v. $814,254.76".
      So, it is your auto, or your boat, or your vacation getaway that is being prosecuted -- not you. This has some really lucrative possibilities for the government. Since they no longer have to worry about whether you have done something wrong but only whether the property was involved in an illegal act, they can take your $50,000 sports car because one of their dogs alleges that it smelled cocaine in the trunk, possibly left by the previous owner. If necessary, and if they are really salivating over the possibility of plucking your sexy sports car away from you, they might even resort to planting a little evidence! "But they do it too!"
      What happens when they actually catch a druggy?

      God forbid -- for that means work, a lot of work. It means preparing cases, spending long days in courts, huge court expenses, etc. But wait -- there's a way around it! It is called the Plea Bargain! With the plea bargain scam, hard work can be avoided, there's little expense, the loot can be taken, and the druggy can be let free to go and accumulate, again, quantities of loot for further takings. See a specific case provided by the Dateline episode. (IMHO, plea bargaining is one of the worst activities of our criminal justice system. It invites corruption, injustice, and sloppy police work. Combine plea bargaining with anonymous tips and asset forfeiture and you have a recipe for lazy and corrupt law enforcement. Have you noticed that in the recent major crimes -- the Atlanta Olympic Park bombing, for example -- the investigators are totally incompetent?)
      The Issues of Court Costs and Property Damage

      Let's say you are one cool cat on your way from Florida to Texas, to close on a big business deal, in your white convertible classic Thunderbird and you are pulled over by the local sheriff of Lost Swamp Parish, Louisiana. Your Mexican ancestry and the fact that you have $5,432.27 on you makes you look mighty suspicious. Based on this overwhelming evidence, the police detain you in jail for a few days (for resisting arrest -- its easy) and tear your car to pieces, destroying the leather seats completely, looking for drugs and loot. Nothing is found. What then? Do they repair your car? Do they reimburse you for the lost business deal that would have rewarded you with $40,000 profit? Do they pay your medical bills for the nasty bug you caught while in jail? You dreamer you. Of course not. That is the cost of living in a democracy. In some third world countries, the abuse is even worse. Get over it.
      Some legislatures, including Louisiana, are working on legislation to correct this problem. Don't hold your breath. And don't expect the Supreme Court to help you. So far, they have supported the constitutional abusers. Take a look at the famous case of Mrs. Bennis who felt that it was a bit unreasonable for the cops to seize her auto because her husband made it with a prostitute in the car -- without Mrs. Bennis' approval or knowledge!
      How can they do it? It is all based on Vagueness.

      In the old days, laws usually had very specific language. For example, Mose's god said "Thou shall not kill". He didn't say, "You should never kill unless you had a crappy youth or you are temporarily a little loony or you don't know what you are doing or you did but now you are very sorry". In fact, the purpose of many laws was to eliminate vagueness. The lawmakers avoided passing laws that said things like "you shall not partake of the sexual pleasures of a girl if she is too young". Instead the laws said things like, "You shall not make whoopy with a female human being if she is 16 years old or less". Now she could be 19 and never been off the farm and it is ok or she could be 15.95 years old and worked in a whore house for the last 7 years and it is verboten! But in recent times, the legislatures have realized it is much more fun and profitable to make laws that are vague. A good example is the Decency Act passed to stop the filth on the internet which forbade "indecent" material on the internet. They didn't bother to define indecent of course. Such vague terms in the law give billions of dollars of work to judges, prosecutors, lawyers and others of that ilk.
      One of the most fertile applications of vagueness in the law are the drug laws. Based on these laws police can arrest and prosecute citizens based on "profiles", "reckless driving", "resisting arrest", "belligerence", "probable cause", "reasonable suspicion", "cocaine tainted money", etc.


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    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    One saving grace, Louisana Gov. Bobby Jindahl is well-known for helping fight the widespread corruption down there. He's one Republican I definitely admire. Being a Rhodes Scholar is no easy task. It's saying something when a nerdy Indian guy can develop respect from some of most backwoods deep south Louisana yokel-ish citizenry and officers.

    Ghost, that article is so disturbing. Wonder what other states besides TX, LA, & TN?
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    One saving grace, Louisana Gov. Bobby Jindahl is well-known for helping fight the widespread corruption down there. He's one Republican I definitely admire. Being a Rhodes Scholar is no easy task. It's saying something when a nerdy Indian guy can develop respect from some of most backwoods deep south Louisana yokel-ish citizenry and officers.

    Ghost, that article is so disturbing. Wonder what other states besides TX, LA, & TN?
    Ohio had been doing something similar, I'll try to find it when I'm on the comp later.

    But, at this point, I'd assume we'll see more, not less, of it to come.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Here's another from Wisconsin.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1522328.html

    Summary: Go to bail a friend out of jail with cash, cops bring in a drug dog to alert on your cash, cops take your cash and keep your friend in jail.

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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by DFab View Post
    Here's another from Wisconsin.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1522328.html

    Summary: Go to bail a friend out of jail with cash, cops bring in a drug dog to alert on your cash, cops take your cash and keep your friend in jail.
    And since most cash has traces of drugs on it, you're screwed. Awesome.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Here is the report card for Colorado
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-k..._b_541182.html
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by asp_125 View Post
    Here is the report card for Colorado
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-k..._b_541182.html
    Wow, there's hope yet. Nice to see our Colorado congress isn't as retarded as the National congress. They can actually sometimes work together on something, and stand up for citizen's rights, at least in this case:

    In 2002, Colorado lawmakers passed, and then governor Bill Owens signed, a law that included a requirement that someone actually be convicted of a crime before their property is seized by government (with some sensible exceptions such as when a person flees the jurisdiction) and removed some of the direct financial incentives for police agencies to go after citizens' assets by requiring that the profits from forfeiture proceedings be spent under the supervision of responsible officials, such as county commissioners, rather than spent at the whim of whatever agency seized the property.

    Support for these reforms was both overwhelming and bi-partisan. The House vote was 51-11 and the Senate vote was 23-10. The bill's sponsors included then Rep. Shawn Mitchell (now Senator Mitchell), a conservative Republican, and then Sen. Bill Thiebaut, a liberal Democrat.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    I've always wondered what it would take to get into politics and make some real change. Seems like to much of a pain in the ass to me, but that is the kind of attitude that keeps these incompetent people in office in the first place.
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    Business in the front, party in the back! CYCLE_MONKEY's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    And since most cash has traces of drugs on it, you're screwed. Awesome.
    Yep, now THAT I agree with. One of the reasons I HATED Reagan. I actually had respect for him until he started this insane "war on drugs" that allows people to circumvent the 4th. WTF is the supreme court thinking??? IF I even agreed with the fact that the "ill-gotten gains" could be confiscated (better get after all those Wall St. thugs then), which I don't, they should first have to prove you guilty of a drug crime, and THEN prove that THAT money/property can be directly linked to the drug profit. If a guy had a legit job during the day, then they can't say ALL of his money was thru the drug trade.
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by CYCLE_MONKEY View Post
    WTF is the supreme court thinking???
    I'm surprised as much of the shit goes on that does, WITH A Conservative majority in the SCotUS.

    Then again, not much can surprise me anymore with gubbin'ment dealings, after the Iraq fiasco, Banking debacle, and the last 10 years in general.
    .
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  17. #17
    Member Yearly Supporter Hoot's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    I think there's is this funny little line on US currency that says "for all debts, public and private"

    Ironic

  18. #18
    Senior Member mdub's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    A Monterey police officer wanted to know if he was carrying any large amounts of cash.
    "I said, 'Around $20,000,'"
    i would say "No"

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Yeah, but let's assume you have one of these corrupt douchebag Tennessee pig cops, as this driver did. Next question from officer is, "May I search your vehicle?". You reply "No".

    BOOM, PROBABLE CAUSE!

    That's the scary part, then they search, find all that shit, and you still have to go through all kinds of legal bullshit and expense to get your $20k back. In fact, in this case, they might even have a better case against returning your money, because obviously the whole law enforcement and judicial system there are totally corrupt fuckers, and you LIED TO HIM. Remind me never to speed in Tennessee, Texas, Wisconsin, Louisana, etc., ugh.

    .
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  20. #20
    Senior Member mdub's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    right. that would just pause the situation. but denying any amts of money honestly to the cop could also make him think ,,,okay he has no money. have a nice day...but hey i;m no crooked cop...

  21. #21
    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Damned if you do...

    If you answer "no" you're lying
    If you answer "yes" they can search anyway
    If you answer "why" they think you're a crook.
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Ghosty's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by mdub View Post
    right. that would just pause the situation. but denying any amts of money honestly to the cop could also make him think ,,,okay he has no money. have a nice day...but hey i;m no crooked cop...
    In Colorado yes, I'd definitely say, "No sir". But we live in a pretty nice state, besides the downtown Denver PD who like to abuse people, heh.

    On the other hand, what's this retard carrying $20k CASH across the country for anyway? Not exactly "normal behavior". Not saying it isn't his right, but still kinda odd...
    .
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  23. #23
    Senior Member mdub's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Damned if you do...

    If you answer "no" you're lying
    If you answer "yes" they can search anyway
    If you answer "why" they think you're a crook.
    it is just the perks of being a crooked cop.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Wrider's Avatar
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    Re: Policing for Profit in Tennessee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    In Colorado yes, I'd definitely say, "No sir". But we live in a pretty nice state, besides the downtown Denver PD who like to abuse people, heh.

    On the other hand, what's this retard carrying $20k CASH across the country for anyway? Not exactly "normal behavior". Not saying it isn't his right, but still kinda odd...
    It's like he doesn't trust the bail-out banks or something... Weird.
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