SLMPD (St. Louis Metro) Worries "In Car Cameras are Being Used Against Them"

[Zach929rr]

Oh really? You are worried that the cameras capturing your violations of law are going to be used against you in court? What a fucking joke.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/23/st...in-car-cameras

Last year the St. Louis Police Department began using cameras mounted in patrol cars to record officers'encounters with suspects and other aspects of their on-the-job behavior. Such dash cameras, which have been used in this country for 15 years or so, can help cops as well as the people they arrest by backing up details of police reports, providing evidence of crimes such as driving while intoxicated, and disproving false complaints of misconduct. But some cops see only the downside. Citing union grievances, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that "city police officers believe in-car cameras are being used against them, and they are trying to find ways to avoid driving cars equipped with them." About half the city's police cars have cameras so far. Capt. Mary Edwards-Fears responded to the problem posed by camera-shy cops in an April 13 memo to supervisors:

We are missing critical evidence for our cases when we allow [officers] to avoid using vehicles with cameras in them, for fear of being caught in a compromising position. Your job as managers in the business is to assist your officers in following the rules and regulations, not assisting them in circumventing them.

The Post-Dispatch describes a few incidents that have contributed to officers' leeriness of dash cams:

Two probationary officers [were] investigated after a woman said they planted guns and drugs on her 16-year-old son. Video exonerated them of that claim but revealed that one struck the handcuffed teen, which led to the firing of both....
In-car cameras caught Officer Jason Stockley brandishing a personally owned rifle at a drug suspect, who was later shot and killed by police Dec. 20. The department does not allow officers to carry personally owned rifles and still is investigating the matter internally.
Officer David Wilson was seen striking a handcuffed teenage suspect in January. He was criminally charged with assault in April, and an internal investigation is under way.

What's the world coming to when cops can no longer punch handcuffed prisoners or violate firearm rules with impunity? The local police union wants restrictions on supervisors' authority to review camera footage, so officers will be have a clearer sense of when they're being watched. Police Chief Dan Isom replies that "I'm not going to draft a policy for those who violate our policy," saying the cameras help "make sure people are following the protocol of the police department." That seems about right to me, although I might have put it this way: If cops are not doing anything wrong, they have nothing to fear.

[#1Townie]

Yeah what a bunch of dudes.

[Ghosty]

Oh really? You are worried that the cameras capturing your violations of law are going to be used against you in court? What a fucking joke.

What's the world coming to when cops can no longer punch handcuffed prisoners or violate firearm rules with impunity?

Fucking police unions, WHAT A JOKE! The DPD Union is the reason that one Denver officer that got caught DRUNK driving and speeding over 80mph ABOVE the limit, kept his job with just a 40day suspension, at worst.

[Aaron]

Allow me to shed some light where none exists. I completely understand the Officer's avoidance of the cameras.

My agency has cameras in about 3/4 of the cars, including my car. A lot of our guys deliberately choose to take cars without cameras for fear of being watched all night. I know this sounds "dirty," but you'd understand if you understood half the things we do. So let me start with this, it is impossible to do this job within policy. I break policy daily, and I do so quite knowingly. Fact of the matter is, every time something bad happens, or the agency gets sued, they put a policy in place to prevent it from happening again. Our policy manual is longer than most novels, and contradicts itself in nearly every paragraph. If the agency wanted to fire me, they could after watching one night of my camera. And I'd like to think I'm a good cop, I treat people well, work hard, and put the protection of my citizens above my protection daily. The guys who have ridden with me would agree I hope.

Luckily I work for an agency that has bigger things to worry about than watching my dashcam all night. When they took my car and put a camera in it, I told myself I wasn't going to allow the camera to influence or change how I do my job. So for me, the camera is a tool. Since getting it, my court appearances have been cut in half, and it's saved my ass more times than I can count. But I also haven't been fucked by my agency yet, and a lot of the older guys have, and thus they don't trust the brass. So they don't want to be watched all night, because they are afraid a member of the brass that's out to get them will watch the video, and use it against them. And it'd be easy to, because we run red lights, we speed, we tailgate, we curse, and we laugh at people.

The cop who brandished his personally owned rifle at a drug suspect. I'm glad he did, and I'm glad he believes in your safety so much that instead of breaking out the agency's old, dirty, unreliable, in-accurate shotguns; he brought out his own rifle when his 9mm wouldn't be enough. I do the same thing, luckily my agency is not as ignorant and allows it. But you know my policy says my rifle is supposed to be zipped up in a case, IN THE TRUNK? I've been guilty of putting mine on the passenger seat...often. I guess when I'm pulling up to a school and all I hear is gunfire, I don't want to go to the trunk, unzip the bag, get the gun out, and then make it ready before I can do anything to protect your kids.

I know how easy it is to judge the cops, especially when you haven't a clue as to what we do, and the rules we have to follow. To those who'd like to get a better idea, shoot me a PM. I'll take you for a ride-along, and you can see what it's like to run a red light without getting in trouble.

[Zach929rr]

Allow me to shed some light where none exists. I completely understand the Officer's avoidance of the cameras.

My agency has cameras in about 3/4 of the cars, including my car. A lot of our guys deliberately choose to take cars without cameras for fear of being watched all night. I know this sounds "dirty," but you'd understand if you understood half the things we do. So let me start with this, it is impossible to do this job within policy. I break policy daily, and I do so quite knowingly. Fact of the matter is, every time something bad happens, or the agency gets sued, they put a policy in place to prevent it from happening again. Our policy manual is longer than most novels, and contradicts itself in nearly every paragraph. If the agency wanted to fire me, they could after watching one night of my camera. And I'd like to think I'm a good cop, I treat people well, work hard, and put the protection of my citizens above my protection daily. The guys who have ridden with me would agree I hope.

Luckily I work for an agency that has bigger things to worry about than watching my dashcam all night. When they took my car and put a camera in it, I told myself I wasn't going to allow the camera to influence or change how I do my job. So for me, the camera is a tool. Since getting it, my court appearances have been cut in half, and it's saved my ass more times than I can count. But I also haven't been fucked by my agency yet, and a lot of the older guys have, and thus they don't trust the brass. So they don't want to be watched all night, because they are afraid a member of the brass that's out to get them will watch the video, and use it against them. And it'd be easy to, because we run red lights, we speed, we tailgate, we curse, and we laugh at people.

The cop who brandished his personally owned rifle at a drug suspect. I'm glad he did, and I'm glad he believes in your safety so much that instead of breaking out the agency's old, dirty, unreliable, in-accurate shotguns; he brought out his own rifle when his 9mm wouldn't be enough. I do the same thing, luckily my agency is not as ignorant and allows it. But you know my policy says my rifle is supposed to be zipped up in a case, IN THE TRUNK? I've been guilty of putting mine on the passenger seat...often. I guess when I'm pulling up to a school and all I hear is gunfire, I don't want to go to the trunk, unzip the bag, get the gun out, and then make it ready before I can do anything to protect your kids.

I know how easy it is to judge the cops, especially when you haven't a clue as to what we do, and the rules we have to follow. To those who'd like to get a better idea, shoot me a PM. I'll take you for a ride-along, and you can see what it's like to run a red light without getting in trouble.

Just going to go ahead and quote this for posterity.

[vort3xr6]

Allow me to shed some light where none exists. I completely understand the Officer's avoidance of the cameras.

My agency has cameras in about 3/4 of the cars, including my car. A lot of our guys deliberately choose to take cars without cameras for fear of being watched all night. I know this sounds "dirty," but you'd understand if you understood half the things we do. So let me start with this, it is impossible to do this job within policy. I break policy daily, and I do so quite knowingly. Fact of the matter is, every time something bad happens, or the agency gets sued, they put a policy in place to prevent it from happening again. Our policy manual is longer than most novels, and contradicts itself in nearly every paragraph. If the agency wanted to fire me, they could after watching one night of my camera. And I'd like to think I'm a good cop, I treat people well, work hard, and put the protection of my citizens above my protection daily. The guys who have ridden with me would agree I hope.

Luckily I work for an agency that has bigger things to worry about than watching my dashcam all night. When they took my car and put a camera in it, I told myself I wasn't going to allow the camera to influence or change how I do my job. So for me, the camera is a tool. Since getting it, my court appearances have been cut in half, and it's saved my ass more times than I can count. But I also haven't been fucked by my agency yet, and a lot of the older guys have, and thus they don't trust the brass. So they don't want to be watched all night, because they are afraid a member of the brass that's out to get them will watch the video, and use it against them. And it'd be easy to, because we run red lights, we speed, we tailgate, we curse, and we laugh at people.

The cop who brandished his personally owned rifle at a drug suspect. I'm glad he did, and I'm glad he believes in your safety so much that instead of breaking out the agency's old, dirty, unreliable, in-accurate shotguns; he brought out his own rifle when his 9mm wouldn't be enough. I do the same thing, luckily my agency is not as ignorant and allows it. But you know my policy says my rifle is supposed to be zipped up in a case, IN THE TRUNK? I've been guilty of putting mine on the passenger seat...often. I guess when I'm pulling up to a school and all I hear is gunfire, I don't want to go to the trunk, unzip the bag, get the gun out, and then make it ready before I can do anything to protect your kids.

I know how easy it is to judge the cops, especially when you haven't a clue as to what we do, and the rules we have to follow. To those who'd like to get a better idea, shoot me a PM. I'll take you for a ride-along, and you can see what it's like to run a red light without getting in trouble.

Good on you. People aren't perfect and I am sure there are politics in your job just as much as there are in mine. I would love to do a ride along some day. I have spent enough time in front of a police car with its lights on, I figure it would be nice to be on the other end.

Zach, you should go for a ride along with this guy. Wear your "like a boss" shirt too.

[Ghosty]

And I'd like to think I'm a good cop, I treat people well, work hard, and put the protection of my citizens above my protection daily. The guys who have ridden with me would agree I hope.

You're the kind of officer we wish covered 100% of the force, instead of the 95% or whatever it is. I'm sure you realize (or hope you do) that when people are insulting (incl. using the word "pig"), they refer to that 5% that mess with people, break the rules, abuse people, lie, power-trip (District-2 downtown), etc. Not the good apples.

[Dietrich_R1]

Allow me to shed some light where none exists. I completely understand the Officer's avoidance of the cameras.

My agency has cameras in about 3/4 of the cars, including my car. A lot of our guys deliberately choose to take cars without cameras for fear of being watched all night. I know this sounds "dirty," but you'd understand if you understood half the things we do. So let me start with this, it is impossible to do this job within policy. I break policy daily, and I do so quite knowingly. Fact of the matter is, every time something bad happens, or the agency gets sued, they put a policy in place to prevent it from happening again. Our policy manual is longer than most novels, and contradicts itself in nearly every paragraph. If the agency wanted to fire me, they could after watching one night of my camera. And I'd like to think I'm a good cop, I treat people well, work hard, and put the protection of my citizens above my protection daily. The guys who have ridden with me would agree I hope.

Luckily I work for an agency that has bigger things to worry about than watching my dashcam all night. When they took my car and put a camera in it, I told myself I wasn't going to allow the camera to influence or change how I do my job. So for me, the camera is a tool. Since getting it, my court appearances have been cut in half, and it's saved my ass more times than I can count. But I also haven't been fucked by my agency yet, and a lot of the older guys have, and thus they don't trust the brass. So they don't want to be watched all night, because they are afraid a member of the brass that's out to get them will watch the video, and use it against them. And it'd be easy to, because we run red lights, we speed, we tailgate, we curse, and we laugh at people.

The cop who brandished his personally owned rifle at a drug suspect. I'm glad he did, and I'm glad he believes in your safety so much that instead of breaking out the agency's old, dirty, unreliable, in-accurate shotguns; he brought out his own rifle when his 9mm wouldn't be enough. I do the same thing, luckily my agency is not as ignorant and allows it. But you know my policy says my rifle is supposed to be zipped up in a case, IN THE TRUNK? I've been guilty of putting mine on the passenger seat...often. I guess when I'm pulling up to a school and all I hear is gunfire, I don't want to go to the trunk, unzip the bag, get the gun out, and then make it ready before I can do anything to protect your kids.

I know how easy it is to judge the cops, especially when you haven't a clue as to what we do, and the rules we have to follow. To those who'd like to get a better idea, shoot me a PM. I'll take you for a ride-along, and you can see what it's like to run a red light without getting in trouble.

What is good for the GOOSE is good for the GANDER. I got in a situation where the person filed a false police report & then I had 2 Patrol show up at my door. I was guilty right there & they were just itching to take me down. I found out I was recorded & I really wish they were recorded!!! These idiots had already made up their mind! BTW... She rear ended me while we were going 2 mph in a traffic jam!!!!! 19yo & texting... YUP! Got my diligence in court.. =:-) BTW.. I was looking at a SEVERE penalty because of no common sense!!!

If someone can record/video then the other "side" should be able to do the same. What's so hard with that. If you know you cross the line, then do you not back down from writing a ticket/arresting??????

[Hoot]

You have to remember that everyone they talk talk is innocent. Everyone would love to think LEO's are somehow not human and not capable of being bias.... But they are. Are they wrong sometimes? We all are, again it's that damned being human thing!

[Aaron]

What is good for the GOOSE is good for the GANDER. I got in a situation where the person filed a false police report & then I had 2 Patrol show up at my door. I was guilty right there & they were just itching to take me down. I found out I was recorded & I really wish they were recorded!!! These idiots had already made up their mind! BTW... She rear ended me while we were going 2 mph in a traffic jam!!!!! 19yo & texting... YUP! Got my diligence in court.. =:-) BTW.. I was looking at a SEVERE penalty because of no common sense!!!

If someone can record/video then the other "side" should be able to do the same. What's so hard with that. If you know you cross the line, then do you not back down from writing a ticket/arresting??????

So let's say someone punches you, completely un-provoked, and breaks your jaw and nose. You know this person, want to press charges, and call the Police. What if they took a report, and that was it? Just dropped the case, didn't even try to contact the other person or bring forth criminal charges, even though you wanted to. And thus develops what we call a citizen's complaint. Since a civilian cannot file criminal charges, you contact the Police, and we press charges on your behalf. We are not witnesses, you are. When it goes to court, you are responsible for proving the offense.

A little while ago I was contacted by a bus driver, claiming a guy ran her stop sign. She described him to a T, and got a license number that led me to him. It didn't matter what he said to me, he was getting a ticket, because that's what she wanted. Unless he could PROVE right then and there that it did not happen, he was getting paper...And he did catch paper. Doesn't mean he is guilty, means he is suspect. If/when it goes to court, she will have to convince the judge that he did run the stop sign. To be quite honest, the chances of this happening are slim, it's hard for a Judge to take one person's word over another.

As for your second rant, it does not make sense. This thread has nothing to do with the sides being able to record. And like I've explained in detail once before, there is no law specifically preventing the public from recording the Police. I also don't understand your last sentence. Let's try typing more words, less punctuating marks.

[Ezzzzy1]

Funny how if there were cameras required in every car it would prove that 99% of the drivers have their heads up their asses. Period.

I applaud the perspective Aaron has but also know that the cops that are shit heads probably dont want cameras on their cars.

Its that fine line... The good cops that get their job done by understanding the rules and bending them where they need to get bent so they can do their job vs. the cops that take advantage of the power they are given and think that when no ones else is looking they can do whatever they want (because their "word" is stronger then anyone elses).

You make some really good points Aaron and who is anyone else to say. I might not agree 100% but if I was doing your job I would try my hardest to do it the way you do.