Mass Shooting in Aurora, CO

[Snowman]

You do know that the order in which the amendments fall has nothing to do with their priority?

[The Black Knight]

You do know that the order in which the amendments fall has nothing to do with their priority?

Absolutely, which is why the issue of my safety falls solely on my responsibility and I won't allow it to be compromised.

[Snowman]

I fear the possibility of an invading Chinese army.
Why can't I have a nuke for a coffee table?

[Ghosty]

It's overzealous gun-nuts like this (Cinebarre) guy trying to "make a statement", that is only gonna FUEL the anti-gun people's argument and ability to expand gun-control. Wait until some CCW accidentally kills an innocent in "friendly fire", while trying to play hero. I'm not against CCW, or in favor of stricter CCW laws. Just stating reality in favor of common sense.

Btw, did you know the odds of getting killed by a terrorist are actually less than getting mauled by a polar bear and black bear in the same day? (E*trade)

[The Black Knight]

I fear the possibility of an invading Chinese army.
Why can't I have a nuke for a coffee table?

Hey more power to you just let me know when you detonate that thing so I'm not in the vicinity of the blast or fall out

[I`m Batman]

Why do stricter gun laws states have more gun crimes?
Because the bad guys know that no one will be shooting back at them.

in 2010
California - no CCW - 1,257 firearm murders
Illinois - no CCW - 364 firearm murders
New York - no CCW - 517 firearm murders

Colorado - 65 firearm murders


Where do the bad guys get the guns from when the laws are so strict?
They don't care about the laws... but the good guys do.

[Snowman]

State Populations
California 37,691,912
Illinois 12,869,257
New York 19,465,197

Colorado 5,116,769


You do the math...

[longrider]

Why do stricter gun laws states have more gun crimes?
Because the bad guys know that no one will be shooting back at them.

in 2010
California - no CCW - 1,257 firearm murders
Illinois - no CCW - 364 firearm murders
New York - no CCW - 517 firearm murders

Colorado - 65 firearm murders


Where do the bad guys get the guns from when the laws are so strict?
They don't care about the laws... but the good guys do.

First off I am not a gun opponent, I even own a handgun myself. Now while those numbers are impressive to be fair you have to take population into account. Colorado still comes out ahead but only by a factor of 2 to 2.5. Using the 2010 census:

California: 1 firearm murder per 29,637 people
Illinois: 1 per 35,248 people
New York: 1 per 37,481 people
Colorado: 1 per 77,372 people

Edit: got ninja'd by Snowman but at least I did the math

[The Black Knight]

State Populations
California 37,691,912
Illinois 12,869,257
New York 19,465,197

Colorado 5,116,769


You do the math...

First off I am not a gun opponent, I even own a handgun myself. Now while those numbers are impressive to be fair you have total take population into account. Colorado still comes out ahead but only by a factor of 2 to 2.5. Using the 2010 census:

California: 1 firearm murder per 29,637 people
Illinois: 1 per 35,248 people
New York: 1 per 37,481 people
Colorado: 1 per 77,372 people

Edit: got ninja'd by Snowman but at least I did the math

Then how do you guys explain the differences berween El Paso TX and Juarez Mexico???

El Paso in 2010 had only 16 homicides vs Juarez at close to 1100 for the year and they are right next door to each other. El Paso has ccw and very good pro gun laws vs Juarez were guns are illegal for citizens to own. So why the big discrepancy??

Math and size have nothing to do with it but laws and people do.

[Snowman]

Easy, you don't shoot your customers...

[Ghost]

Then how do you guys explain the differences berween El Paso TX and Juarez Mexico???

El Paso in 2010 had only 16 homicides vs Juarez at close to 1100 for the year and they are right next door to each other. El Paso has ccw and very good pro gun laws vs Juarez were guns are illegal for citizens to own. So why the big discrepancy??

Math and size have nothing to do with it but laws and people do.

Ok, this is pro-CCW taken WAY out of context while completely ignoring more relevant factors--Juarez is in Mexico, it's a major Drug Cartel and Human Trafficking center of operations, the town is largely run by, and controlledby both criminal organizations and wholly corrupt politicians. The police are either bought off, controlled by, part of, or scared of the major cartels.

Those are the factors influencing Juarez, CCW has *nothing* to do with it...

As to NY, CA, IL & CO, again specious arguments about CCW having any effect are wholly ignoring the prevalence of gang violence, criminal organizations and population density of cities in those states...

CCW makes an individual feel better/safer, but it's not an effective deterrent of crime writ large as it cannot confront organized crime, gang wars, trafficking, drug dealing, theft rings, cartels, or any of the major factors that cause systemic violence.

I'm not anti-gun, nor anti CCW, but any serious discussion can't ignore reality just to support a cause.

[Snowman]

Not anti-gun ether... But I'm more pro-facts...

[Ghosty]

Juarez, MEXICO: "The most dangerous city in the world"...

http://www.businessinsider.com/juarez-to-el-paso-2012-6

Juarez and Colorado cities, definitely comparing apples to apples.

+1 @ Snowman & Ghost. Common sense enlightened by facts, should prevail. Not paranoia that there's a terrorist hiding behind every bush and you need a CCW to safely go to KingSoopers to pick up milk & eggs.

I've shown you data comparing countries, and comparing states. Now consider the U.S. over time. Americans tend to think the U.S. is getting more violent. In a recent Gallup survey, 68 percent said there’s more crime in the U.S. than there was a year ago. Well, here’s what I found surprising: the U.S. is actually getting safer. In the decade since the year 2000, violent crime rates fell by 20 percent; aggravated assault by 22 percent; motor vehicle theft by 42 percent; murder – by all weapons – by 13 percent.

[Ghost]

I'm more pro-facts...

Those have no place in CSC!

[The Black Knight]

Ok, this is pro-CCW taken WAY out of context while completely ignoring more relevant factors--Juarez is in Mexico, it's a major Drug Cartel and Human Trafficking center of operations, the town is largely run by, and controlledby both criminal organizations and wholly corrupt politicians. The police are either bought off, controlled by, part of, or scared of the major cartels.

Those are the factors influencing Juarez, CCW has *nothing* to do with it...

As to NY, CA, IL & CO, again specious arguments about CCW having any effect are wholly ignoring the prevalence of gang violence, criminal organizations and population density of cities in those states...

CCW makes an individual feel better/safer, but it's not an effective deterrent of crime writ large as it cannot confront organized crime, gang wars, trafficking, drug dealing, theft rings, cartels, or any of the major factors that cause systemic violence.

I'm not anti-gun, nor anti CCW, but any serious discussion can't ignore reality just to support a cause.

this is wear we have to agree to disagree. I believe it does help fight crime maybe not large scale but hey some is better than none.

Juarez, MEXICO: "The most dangerous city in the world"...

http://www.businessinsider.com/juarez-to-el-paso-2012-6

Juarez and Colorado cities, definitely comparing apples to apples.

+1 @ Snowman & Ghost. Common sense enlightened by facts, should prevail. Not paranoia that there's a terrorist hiding behind every bush and you need a CCW to safely go to KingSoopers to pick up milk & eggs.

Shouldn't feel the need to carry in a movie theater and look what happened. The chances of shit going down in a real world situation is probably more likely to happen than you believe.

[I`m Batman]

State Populations
California 37,691,912
Illinois 12,869,257
New York 19,465,197

Colorado 5,116,769


You do the math...

Actually... I already did the math... that's why I posted it.

California - 337 per 100,000 population
Illinois - 281 per 100,000 population
New York - 264 per 100,000 population

Colorado - 128 per 100,000 population

Vermont - no need for permit to CCW - 2 people were murdered by firearm

So longrider did the math right... So, it's still much higher firearm murder rate in other states with strict gun laws....

How do you explain higher firearm murders/crimes in those strictly gun controlled laws states?
Because criminals don't care about the law. They want more gun control so they can have more advantages over you.

[Ghost]

So, it's still much higher firearm murder rate in other states with strict gun laws....

How do you explain higher firearm murders/crimes in those strictly gun controlled laws states?

Because criminals don't care about the law. They want more gun control so they can have more advantages over you.

Again, you're focusing solely on one aspect and purposefully ignoring all other relevant factors related to violent crime statistics by state.

And, since you are focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring everything else--riddle me this, Batman--if CO is so much "safer" due to its less-stringent CCW laws, why has CO been the victim of 2 major "mass-shootings" in recent history?

1999--Columbine
2012--Aurora Dark Knight

Clearly, our CCW policies did nothing to prevent those tragedies...

[Ghosty]

Shouldn't feel the need to carry in a movie theater and look what happened. The chances of shit going down in a real world situation is probably more likely to happen than you believe.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think the chances of getting shot in a theater, shopping, groceries, everyday life, etc. are very low, if not close to neglible, in 90% of the country. Unless you live in gangland territory or other inner city rough neighborhoods like Chicago's South side, East L.A., Detroit, the Bronx in the 70's lol, etc. Yes we will read about the very rare occurances like that last one where the (armed) old guy shot two robbers, but how often does that happen?

Now, IF I lived in places like Compton or others I mentioned above, I probably would feel the need for a CCW, and carry everywhere.

(Unfortunately because of clowns like Klebold/Harris/Holmes, it raises the paranoia level sky-high.)

[I`m Batman]

1999--Columbine
2012--Aurora Dark Knight

Clearly, our CCW policies did nothing to prevent those tragedies...

Both of those places ban CCW.

[TinkerinWstuff]

Just dropped in to see the gun legislation debate raging. Assuming that means you guys already know Chucky has attached a magazine ban to the cyber security bill?

No matter where you stand on issues, don't you have to wonder why this shit cannot have it's own vote as opposed to being attached to unrelated issues? And maybe real talk should happen instead of knee jerk reaction to tragedy.

[TFOGGuys]

Again, you're focusing solely on one aspect and purposefully ignoring all other relevant factors related to violent crime statistics by state.

And, since you are focusing solely on one aspect and ignoring everything else--riddle me this, Batman--if CO is so much "safer" due to its less-stringent CCW laws, why has CO been the victim of 2 major "mass-shootings" in recent history?

1999--Columbine
2012--Aurora Dark Knight

Clearly, our CCW policies did nothing to prevent those tragedies...

Prior to 2003, CCW permits were virtually impossible to get in most counties. Under current law, a permit holder may not carry on the grounds of a K-12 school. That didn't stop those two monsters from carrying out their agenda. The theater had a "no weapons" policy in place, which permit holders are not legally bound to respect, but most do anyway. Net result is that the criminals ignored the law, and were unopposed.

from an email I received from Graham Dunne, firearms instructor and Aurora PD officer:

We truely appreciate all the e-mails of support. We are under a court order not to discuss our actions at the cinema and at his apartment. I have answered alot of "what if" questions, I can give you some food for thought:

-If the only target you have is muzzle flash, that's a great target indicator. Behind muzzle flash is the chest, face, hands, and the firearm.

-Ballistic vests are only rated for two impacts per area. With good hollow points the 3rd, 4th, 5th etc.. rounds are going through. I would rather hammer the upper chest than try to adjust for the head, a smaller target. Every officer I have talked to who has ever been shot wearing a vest said the same thing, "it's like getting hit with a baseball bat."

-If you study mass violence scenarios, 99% of these cowards committing these atrocities will run when they encounter any resistance. In other words if rounds are coming their way, even if they're not hit, they usually run, often times commiting suicide.

-By the nature of cinema seating, (on a grade), you have a much better chance of not hitting innocents when engaging bad guys.

-It is true concealed weapons were not permitted at the cinema. So it is possible you could be charged with misdemeanors, such as carrying concealed and lose your permit. I believe this is a worthy trade to save lives. In other words you can pay your fine then go accept your award from the President at the White House.

-Training is very important.

“We don't rise to the level of our expectations; we fall to the level of our training”

Archilochus, Greek Soldier 650 BC

-The alternative not to engage is to die.

I hope you find these points interesting. Couple of things: I have scheduled a few "lecture only" classes in August for those who want their permit asap and do not care so much about the shooting portion. A student told me today he got his permit in Douglas CO in 16 days, I think that's a record. Please contact Kellie at kmcraft14@gmail.com to schedule any classes.
Take care.

[I`m Batman]

from an email I received from Graham Dunne, firearms instructor and Aurora PD officer:

I got that email too.

[Ghost]

Both of those places ban CCW.

So, CCW didn't and wouldn't have helped, unless CCW holders want to violate laws and/or violate the rights/wishes of private businesses or public institutions.

Which means that arguing on and on about how CCW would have saved the day-in theory-is completely moot.

However, the argument against high-capacity & quick-release mags seems strengthened by these and other mass-shootings (VA Tech, etc.) since those mags directly led to the shooter's ability to kill and wound numerous people in extremely rapid succession...

A CA-style AR with it's 10-round capacity and it's pin/bullet-point release mechanism would certainly have been slower than a 60-round (supposedly) magazine...

[I`m Batman]

The whole point is that all these law against guns only affect the good people that could help when the time comes. Making these laws more strict or to even ban guns completely will only benefit the bad guys and hurt the rest of us law abiding citizens. All these businesses that won't allow CCW, is just an invitation to criminals.