Can't say that for certain one way or the other. But I'd rather take my chances. And a standoff between an armed citizen and the perp may easily have allowed more to escape.Originally Posted by Vance
Can't say that for certain one way or the other. But I'd rather take my chances. And a standoff between an armed citizen and the perp may easily have allowed more to escape.
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Guess they may have found something through the window in his apartment and they wont go in.
It makes me think more and more about a concealed carry. Plus seeing the video of that old dude that shot the 2 perps who were holding up the internet cafe. Quick and decisive action could have possibly have saved lives.
I'm just saying that in situations like that it is not prudent to try to open fire. None of us are Jason Bourne, though we all like to think we could be.
Sure - some people might be trained by the military, in combat in a MILITARY ACTION, not a situation like the theatre. A pistol in a crowed of essentially lemmings pushing against each other in a panic is totally different than any combat arena with a M4, even a CQB situation.
I would put good money down that no SWAT or QRT unit would have been given an operational green light to go in there with sidearms only in the middle of that situation, one guy, one gun, and let that officer try to take the gunman down.
I just think, as much as I support gun ownership, CCWs, etc... another gun was NOT the answer. Courage - yes. Valor - yes. Balls of steel - yes... but not another gun. Fuck - you probably could have been more effective throwing a coke and a bucket of popcorn in the guy's face than trying to shoot him!
...Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.
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I guess all the "facts" are in then eh?
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
He had a bullet proof vest on, so you lose that section to stop him with a kill shot, he deployed either tear gas or some sort of smoke and had a gas mask on so it would have been hard to see him. There are many factors that have to be taken into place before anyone with a ccw would have been able to do anything. i think you are right it would have taken someone with the courage to try and take him down and maybe even shoot him with his own weapon.
AGAIN - this is only hours old. There are a lot of rumors floating around but little confirmed FACTS. Easy to make a lot of assumptions.
And even so - a shot to a bulletproof vest can still immobilize a person. And then there's the rest of the body. Just a shot to the arm, leg, hand, or foot could have had the guy rolling on the ground screaming for mommy.
There's no way to know if a CCW could have done anything or not. But I like the odds a lot better.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Sad news..... Hope nobody we know was in attendance.
And I really hope this guy gets a direct ticket to be in front of a firing squad or at the end of a hanging noose. I really hope my tax dollars aren't wasted on this piece of shit who decides to make a plea of insanity.
Last edited by Matty; Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 08:44 AM.
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First and foremost, hearts & prayers for all the victims, like Colorado needs ANOTHER shooting like this? Geeze, truly so sad!
I think Vance is going on the info we have so far, one of the main things being the guy popped two smoke bombs (or similar device), waited for them to go off, THEN started aimlessly opening fire, and it was probably dark on top of all that. With our very limited facts, I could see where it might be a questionable move to pull out your concealed and try to play hero here. We're not all Jason Bourne and no guarantee we don't put innocents in danger too with friendly fire, ricochet, shooting through walls at innocents on the other side, etc. The guy had a vest and multiple guns strapped too. The suspect told police he had explosives in his apartment, which they evacuated. This guy was a nutjob, and I'm sure we're about to read about all the nutjob propoganda and evidence they find in his place.
That being said, I still agree with more (legal, smart, stable, responsible) gun owners with CCW, I might feel a little safer, maybe.
+1
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It depends on the details of the situation, and we don't know too much at this point. He was obviously concerned with surviving, so it's plausible that return fire, especially if there were several sources, might have caused him to flee. It's nearly impossible at this point to know what would have been a good response unless you were in the situation as it happened. Sure, a SWAT team wouldn't go into a situation like that armed only with pistols, but if they found themselves in that situation with pistols, I'm willing to bet that just standing there would not be their response.
But he clearly wants to make some sort of statement because he wanted to survive, and he made no attempt to flee once he had done what he wanted to do. We'll find out his sick reasoning in short order I suspect.
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
im going to agree with vance tear gas burns your vision is fogged and people running everywhere to pull your gun and "try" to fire would be down right stupid, most people that carry dont know what its like to react under fire its not as easy as people would like to think
I agree with Vance. It is possible even if the person was trying to help that is could have caused more confusion. You have everyone running towards the top of the theatre to get away from the guy at the bottom and then shots start to get fired from another direction could cause people who could have escaped to get confused and go back towards the shooter. In confusion like that nobody will know if you are trying to help or another shooter in on it. Plus I think this guy was ready for this since he was in gear and used the gas.
I suppose someone could have got a good shot off and taken him out, but so hard to say....
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well DUH - of course not. You aren't going to SEND someone into a deadly situation without every possible tool.
But when you find yourself ALREADY face to face with a deadly situation, you use what you have.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
I see your point Vance. It would have taken a VERY trained shooter to take down the assailant. I would love to think I could headshot someone from 30 yards in the dark while being tear gassed, but more than likely I would run out of ammo and be killed.
Do we know for sure if it was tear gas?
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
Im also with Vance. With the smoke and total panic a ccw COULD have made things worse just as quick as COULD have helped. People running around in the dark dressed like batman with smoke helping to to blind people further. Bad day for sure. Watched a clip on a article that was posted on youtube with one kid being brought out in a full batman costume on. The total fear those people faced..... just wow.
There is a guy with blood all over him. I dont think he was shot but yeah you can hear the fear in the people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlBvk...e_gdata_player
Last edited by #1Townie; Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 09:02 AM.
At least one article mentioned a witness saying, "He dropped a cannister which spewed noxious fumes". Take that for what it is, I'm sure we'll find out mroe detail later today.
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'08 Yamaha R1 (black), mostly stock. Past bikes: '98 VFR-800 (red), '01 CBR-929RR (white/red), '05 Yamaha R6 (white), '08 Yamaha R1 (blue).
'94 Supra Turbo 6spd. (black), BUILT motor/head, CompTurbo CT43-xx, '69 Dodge Coronet SuperBee tribute, 440/520 SixPack stroker, auto.
Watching the coverage on his apartment is a little intense, could be absolutely nothing or could be massive. I could care less what the reporters say just watching the people at the window of his unit is crazy.
Mixed information, radio said tear gas, witnesses on the news said smoke.
They do know for sure that he had a gas mask on though.
oh get out with your "applying logic" and shit.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
Yeah, I've read people saying that they were choking on smoke, but not saying that their eyes were burning like you'd expect for tear gas. We'll have to see what the investigation uncovers.
Formerly MRA #211 - High Precision Racing
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self- preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
--Thomas Jefferson
All the media attention contaminates witness testimony.
Shove a microphone in people's face before their adrenaline has even stopped flowing; "PEOPLE WANNA KNOW, WHAT DID YOU SEE???"
One person says one thing, another feeds off that, pretty soon the witnesses don't even have a clear picture of what they saw.
One person says he's dressed in tactical gear, the other says he was dressed like batman.
If people hadn't died senselessly, the misinformation and assumptions about what happened would almost be comical
Last edited by TinkerinWstuff; Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 09:14 AM.
1998 VFR800 Interceptor - resurrected and custom tail http://vfrworld.com/forums/5th-gener...98-vfr800.html
1999 DR650SE
One of the victims at the hospital just passed away 12 people dead now...
Just going from what the people that were there that have been interviewed on the radio. They did say it was making them choke. KS107.5 has had at least three different people call in that were in the theatre
Just talked to my GF who worked all night there; she is badly shaken up. Situation is bad and ER's all over all filled up. Glad she is able to help these people. she is going home for a few hours rest and then will be back in either ICU or ER caring for more of these patients; some in bad shape
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