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Thread: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

  1. #1
    Senior Member Lurch's Avatar
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    Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    I have been doing a lot of research about brake fad and the reasons behind it and I think I have found a couple of good reasons as to why.

    1. Brake fluid...All fluids aren't created equal.

    2. Proper bed in of pads.

    If you have questions post them up and I will try to answer them.

    Lurch
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    Member Devil954's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    or in your case Lurch
    1. Rider weighs as much as bike
    Sorry didnt mean to bastardise your post I couldnt resist . Carry on :P

  3. #3

    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    So what is the proper way to bed in the pads.
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    Senior Member Sparker's Avatar
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    at the track day i had dot 5.0 in my system with steel lines and EBC HH pads. i can honestly say they felt just as strong after the track day as before.
    Firefighters find them hot, leave them wet

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    now with bi-turbo goodness Site Admin Mel's Avatar
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    Oh all knowing Lurch, why is the sky blue?


    I mean, are there some sites you can recomend (or personal tips) on how to properly break in pads (EBC for example)?
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    Senior Member Mista Black's Avatar
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    hell my rear brake is useless after about 3 corners on squaw pass... it's even worse on the track.

    the fronts have never been a problem
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    Senior Member Wahooman's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    I have no idea what my rear brake does....haven't touched it since I bought the bike ( or VERY little anyway)
    Front seem to do just fine. If I run a bunch of laps and am braking hard into corners on the front I can feel them fade slightly over period of time.

  8. #8
    Senior Member FZRguy's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    I think the number one reason for brake fade is heat. And what’s a rear brake? Oh yeah, I use it to hold the bike while stopped on a hill.
    John
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Lurch's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    Quote Originally Posted by cosp600rr";p="231794
    So what is the proper way to bed in the pads.
    Start with clean rotors. Bead blast them if you are switching brands or compounds. Then clean with acetone or de-natured alcohol. This will eliminate the glazing problem that a lot of people have.

    As far as bed in every pad is different. Ferodo for example you should ride 2 laps at about 50% of braking then 1 lap at 75% then go for it. Other brands say to go heat them up real good then let cool then ride 100%. Others even goe as far as saying ride them 100% out of the box. I would go with the Ferodo method before riding brakes 100% and not knowing if they are going to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparker";p="231798
    at the track day i had dot 5.0 in my system with steel lines and EBC HH pads. i can honestly say they felt just as strong after the track day as before.
    You should be careful with DOT 5 fluid. A lot of DOT 5's are silicon based and aren't hydroscopic(sp) which means they absorb water. Silicon fluids can actually allow water to form which is heavier then the brake fluid which in turn will allow the water to find its way to the calipers. If this happens you can boil the water in the calipers and cause the brakes to seize.

    Quote Originally Posted by FZRguy";p="231820
    I think the number one reason for brake fade is heat.
    It is but the right fluid will solve a lot of these problems.

    So for a little info on fluids. They have a dry and wet temp rating. They all absorb water except the silicon based fluids which are a bad choice. Here are just a few examples

    Castrol SRF 590D 518W
    Motul-600 585D 421W
    AP-600 572D 410W
    Silkolene Pro2000 580D 383W

    and they drop off from there. As you can see there is a huge difference in the WET temps which is what we are worried about. The Castrol SRF is what they use in IRL cars but it is $65/liter. I'm using Silkolene right now and I'm switching to Motul$24/liter for this weekends race. I have been having brake fad during the last few races.

    Quote Originally Posted by purpgixxerchic";p="231801
    Oh all knowing Lurch, why is the sky blue?
    It has something to do with the atmosphere and shit. That is my project for next week.

    Lurch
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Sparker's Avatar
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    i use the 4.0.....it was dark and i cant count and type
    Firefighters find them hot, leave them wet

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    Senior Member BlueDevil's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    As in my personal experience I will add another reason why it can occur. Impropper saftey wiring. I had my wire slightly to tight for SCR race. Lap 3-4 of each race I would come off the front straight and the bar would go to the handle. NO BRAKES!!! Well very little. They would even grab hard mid brake and let off and jitter while on the brakes. Changed pads, fluid, bleed lines several times, all to no avail. Low and behold, wire them differently and brake demon is gone. In my case, the wire had a microscopic amount of pressure on the pads, however, it caused them to overheat by the 3rd or 4th lap in arace and basically go into melt down. Always make sure nothing is near those pads. No wire, no clips, nada!!!!

    On a side note, I have used Motul and Silkolleen currently. High quailty fluid does make a big difference as well.
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    Senior Member friscokidd's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil954";p="231791
    or in your case Lurch
    1. Rider weighs as much as bike
    I was thinking the same thing when i read his post.
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevil";p="231830
    Always make sure nothing is near those pads. No wire, no clips, nada!!!!

    On a side note, I have used Motul and Silkolleen currently. High quailty fluid does make a big difference as well.
    I definitely agree on the binding of the pads, it's surprisingly easy to do as some people found out recently, when the MRA started requiring retaining pins to be wired in (which is good, but has to be done right).

    Also, when you change your pads out take some scotchbrite and clean up the pin where the pads ride on it. Give the pads as little friction as possible, especially since they do bind so easily and there is nothing but airflow to push them back off the rotor.

    I haven't had fade with Silkolene fluid yet, but I'm also not putting the demands on my brakes that Lurch does (not a slam, just physics). I think both are good (Silk and Motul). Castrol is the shit, but it'll cost you a lot to use it. I've heard a lot of racers on gixxer.com say that they've noticed some improvement with Motul however, and it performs near to what Castrol does for a lot less money.
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    I am running the Motul in mine, and still have the fading about a quarter way through an endurance race. so I guess BREMBO is next.
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    Why is the sky blue?
    A clear cloudless day-time sky is blue because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colours because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight.

    The white light from the sun is a mixture of all colours of the rainbow. This was demonstrated by Isaac Newton, who used a prism to separate the different colours and so form a spectrum. The colours of light are distinguished by their different wavelengths. The visible part of the spectrum ranges from red light with a wavelength of about 720 nm, to violet with a wavelength of about 380 nm, with orange, yellow, green, blue and indigo between. The three different types of colour receptors in the retina of the human eye respond most strongly to red, green and blue wavelengths, giving us our colour vision.

    Tyndall Effect
    The first steps towards correctly explaining the colour of the sky were taken by John Tyndall in 1859. He discovered that when light passes through a clear fluid holding small particles in suspension, the shorter blue wavelengths are scattered more strongly than the red. This can be demonstrated by shining a beam of white light through a tank of water with a little milk or soap mixed in. From the side, the beam can be seen by the blue light it scatters; but the light seen directly from the end is reddened after it has passed through the tank. The scattered light can also be shown to be polarised using a filter of polarised light, just as the sky appears a deeper blue through polaroid sun glasses.

    This is most correctly called the Tyndall effect, but it is more commonly known to physicists as Rayleigh scattering--after Lord Rayleigh, who studied it in more detail a few years later. He showed that the amount of light scattered is inversely proportional to the fourth power of wavelength for sufficiently small particles. It follows that blue light is scattered more than red light by a factor of (700/400)4 ~= 10.

    Dust or Molecules?
    Tyndall and Rayleigh thought that the blue colour of the sky must be due to small particles of dust and droplets of water vapour in the atmosphere. Even today, people sometimes incorrectly say that this is the case. Later scientists realised that if this were true, there would be more variation of sky colour with humidity or haze conditions than was actually observed, so they supposed correctly that the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in the air are sufficient to account for the scattering. The case was finally settled by Einstein in 1911, who calculated the detailed formula for the scattering of light from molecules; and this was found to be in agreement with experiment. He was even able to use the calculation as a further verification of Avogadro's number when compared with observation. The molecules are able to scatter light because the electromagnetic field of the light waves induces electric dipole moments in the molecules.

    Why not violet?
    If shorter wavelengths are scattered most strongly, then there is a puzzle as to why the sky does not appear violet, the colour with the shortest visible wavelength. The spectrum of light emission from the sun is not constant at all wavelengths, and additionally is absorbed by the high atmosphere, so there is less violet in the light. Our eyes are also less sensitive to violet. That's part of the answer; yet a rainbow shows that there remains a significant amount of visible light coloured indigo and violet beyond the blue. The rest of the answer to this puzzle lies in the way our vision works. We have three types of colour receptors, or cones, in our retina. They are called red, blue and green because they respond most strongly to light at those wavelengths. As they are stimulated in different proportions, our visual system constructs the colours we see.


    Response curves for the three types of cone in the human eye

    When we look up at the sky, the red cones respond to the small amount of scattered red light, but also less strongly to orange and yellow wavelengths. The green cones respond to yellow and the more strongly-scattered green and green-blue wavelengths. The blue cones are stimulated by colours near blue wavelengths which are very strongly scattered. If there were no indigo and violet in the spectrum, the sky would appear blue with a slight green tinge. However, the most strongly scattered indigo and violet wavelengths stimulate the red cones slightly as well as the blue, which is why these colours appear blue with an added red tinge. The net effect is that the red and green cones are stimulated about equally by the light from the sky, while the blue is stimulated more strongly. This combination accounts for the pale sky blue colour. It may not be a coincidence that our vision is adjusted to see the sky as a pure hue. We have evolved to fit in with our environment; and the ability to separate natural colours most clearly is probably a survival advantage.


    A multi-coloured sunset over the Firth of Forth in Scotland.

    Sunsets
    When the air is clear the sunset will appear yellow, because the light from the sun has passed a long distance through air and some of the blue light has been scattered away. If the air is polluted with small particles, natural or otherwise, the sunset will be more red. Sunsets over the sea may also be orange, due to salt particles in the air, which are effective Tyndall scatterers. The sky around the sun is seen reddened, as well as the light coming directly from the sun. This is because all light is scattered relatively well through small angles--but blue light is then more likely to be scattered twice or more over the greater distances, leaving the yellow, red and orange colours.


    A blue haze over the mountains of Les Vosges in France.

    Blue Haze and Blue Moon
    Clouds and dust haze appear white because they consist of particles larger than the wavelengths of light, which scatter all wavelengths equally (Mie scattering). But sometimes there might be other particles in the air that are much smaller. Some mountainous regions are famous for their blue haze. Aerosols of terpenes from the vegetation react with ozone in the atmosphere to form small particles about 200 nm across, and these particles scatter the blue light. A forest fire or volcanic eruption may occasionally fill the atmosphere with fine particles of 500-800 nm across, being the right size to scatter red light. This gives the opposite to the usual Tyndall effect, and may cause the moon to have a blue tinge since the red light has been scattered out. This is a very rare phenomenon--occurring literally once in a blue moon.

    Opalescence
    The Tyndall effect is responsible for some other blue coloration's in nature: such as blue eyes, the opalescence of some gem stones, and the colour in the blue jay's wing. The colours can vary according to the size of the scattering particles. When a fluid is near its critical temperature and pressure, tiny density fluctuations are responsible for a blue coloration known as critical opalescence. People have also copied these natural effects by making ornamental glasses impregnated with particles, to give the glass a blue sheen. But not all blue colouring in nature is caused by scattering. Light under the sea is blue because water absorbs longer wavelength of light through distances over about 20 metres. When viewed from the beach, the sea is also blue because it reflects the sky, of course. Some birds and butterflies get their blue colorations by diffraction effects.

    Why is the Mars sky red?
    Images sent back from the Viking Mars landers in 1977 and from Pathfinder in 1997 showed a red sky seen from the Martian surface. This was due to red iron-rich dusts thrown up in the dust storms occurring from time to time on Mars. The colour of the Mars sky will change according to weather conditions. It should be blue when there have been no recent storms, but it will be darker than the earth's daytime sky because of Mars' thinner atmosphere.

    *source http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic.../blue_sky.html *
    Newton

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    Only here for the free Wi-Fi Site Admin Spiderman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurch";p="231790
    I have been doing a lot of research about brake fad ...
    I've heard of brake fade, but what's brake fad? :P
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    Brake FAD is a passing thing..... god thats a shitty joke
    Christopher MRA 915
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  18. #18
    Member *MV* #33's Avatar
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    Re: Do your brakes fad while racing or doing a trackday????

    Brakes are for pussies


    :P

  19. #19
    Senior Member Lurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderman";p="231930
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurch";p="231790
    I have been doing a lot of research about brake fad ...
    I've heard of brake fade, but what's brake fad? :P
    That would be the use of the brakes so damn hard that you don't need the "E" anymore.

    Lurch
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