Amending the Constitution

[Tipys]

The only stipulation that I would suggest is that you have to be a property owner to vote like it was when this country was founded.



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So should women not be aloud to vote either? Cause they couldn't vote when this country was founded.

As for just the simple fact between property owner and non property owner. Just because you are a property owner doesn't mean you have any more invested in this country then the non property owners.

[Ezzzzy1]

So should women not be aloud to vote either? Cause they couldn't vote when this country was founded.

Yes women cant vote, neither can black people. Everyone must use muskets and wear feathers in their hats too.

As for just the simple fact between property owner and non property owner. Just because you are a property owner doesn't mean you have any more invested in this country then the non property owners.

If you want to argue with the philosophy of Aristotle then go ahead.

[Wrider]

So because I don't own property I shouldn't be able to vote?

Interesting... What about those that live in an apartment because they're saving up for a house?

What about those that bought houses because they were told they could afford it but were too dumb to check their own finances and are now in extreme trouble?

How about those that could easily afford a house, bought one, but lost their job through no fault of their own, and have been foreclosed on?

How about those that have been robo-signed on foreclosure, even though they paid for their house in cash?

How about those whose name is not on the deed/title, yet are making payments?

[#1Townie]

So because I don't own property I shouldn't be able to vote?

Interesting... What about those that live in an apartment because they're saving up for a house?

What about those that bought houses because they were told they could afford it but were too dumb to check their own finances and are now in extreme trouble?

How about those that could easily afford a house, bought one, but lost their job through no fault of their own, and have been foreclosed on?

How about those that have been robo-signed on foreclosure, even though they paid for their house in cash?

How about those whose name is not on the deed/title, yet are making payments?

Nope only the rich should be allowed to vote. The rest of us are too dumb. If you are still making payments on a home you dont own it, the bank does.

[Wrider]

Nope only the rich should be allowed to vote. The rest of us are too dumb. If you are still making payments on a home you dont own it, the bank does.

Well in that case the bank ought to pay the property taxes and maintenance costs...

[#1Townie]

You're right they should. Same thing with cars.

[Zanatos]

Why do conservatives act like half the country is comprised of lazy freeloaders?

The law does not require the bottom 47% of income earners to pay federal income taxes - however ...

"Low-income households as a group do, in fact, pay federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data show that the poorest fifth of households paid an average of 4.0 percent of their incomes in federal taxes in 2007, the latest year for which these data are available — not an insignificant amount given how modest these households’ incomes are; the poorest fifth of households had average income of $18,400 in 2007. The next-to-the bottom fifth — those with incomes between $20,500 and $34,300 in 2007 — paid an average of 10.6 percent of their incomes in federal taxes."

Source: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505

[Wrider]

I paid 11.54% in Federal taxes.
I paid 1.5% in Medicare taxes.
I paid 3.8% in State taxes.
I paid 4.5% in Social Security taxes.

That's 21.34% total in just taxes.

Personally I think that's way too high for several reasons.
1. It doesn't take into account vehicle registrations, sales tax, etc.
2. I'm paying 4.2% (6.2% this year) for social security, which, at my age and the way it's going, I'll never see a cent of.
3. I've never used Medicare, yet I have to pay for it AND my own medical, bringing the total to 5.7% of my paycheck.

So overall I'm paying 21.34% of my check to taxes BEFORE I get to cover my own costs such as health care, dental, vision, 401(k), etc. But wait, there's more! This year we're paying another 2% into Social Security so it'll be a total of 23.34% of my paycheck gone before I can even start to cover my own expenses and needs.

And for what it's worth, I am well within the 2nd to bottom 1/5.

I know it's not a lot compared to the higher echelons, but there's something seriously wrong with that IMHO.

[Clovis]

I'm paid on a commission basis. On my commission checks (once per month) my tax withholding breaks down like this:


25% in Federal Income Tax
4.63% in CO state income tax
1.45% in Medicare
6.2% in social security

37.28% if my paycheck goes to taxes.


Not reflected is the employer paid portions of social security and medicare, which is the same as the employee paid portion, another 7.65%

44.93% of my income goes to taxes, right off the paycheck.

The 7.65 employer paid portion of taxes is part of my overall compensation or cost of employment.

Factor in another 7.63% in sales tax (Colorado Springs 2013 rate), which is paid with after-tax dollars and it's painfully obvious that over 50% of my earnings goes to tax.

Not included would be property tax which is not a percentage of income but rather the assessed value of my home.

Do I pay enough taxes yet? Yes
Am I wealthy or the hated 1%? Hell no, I'm decisively middle-class.

I'm in the top 10% of earnings and I work 60-70 hours per week. Heck, the Friday before New Years I was at work from 10:00am to 3:30am... That's my personal longest day but typically I'm in the office until 7-8pm and until midnight at least once per month.

So when I vote, I generally vote no on tax increases and vote for the candidates that pledge to lower taxes, yet my vote is negated by those who vote yes on tax increases yet pay no or very little in taxes and benefit from the tax increases.

To answer Zanatos's question about why conservatives think the bottom 47% are tax payers are freeloaders...

It's not the 47% but it probably is more like the bottom 27% -- The military serving in combat and the elderly are both statistically in the 47% group but I wouldn't call them freeloaders.

But, take my wife for example. She works as a tech support / customer service rep for a local cable company that's primarily based in several democratic stats. Michigan and Illinois come to mind.

The running joke is that callers/customers from those states call in to demand their free 5 day payment extension or set up payments around their unemployment, disability or other government welfare checks.

I consider cable TV, especially the premium packages this group has to be a luxury yet to them it's a right. I certainly wouldn't have cable if I was on unemployment, in fact I don't have cable or Satellite TV now.

Ultimately a group that contributes nothing or very little is able to demand more and more from the group that pays for everything. Another interesting statistic is that the more a person pays into taxes, the less benefit they receive while a person who pays very little to nothing receives a disproportionate amount of government services, at the expense of the top half.

That is not American in my opinion. Everyone should pull their own weight and have skin in the game.

[Zanatos]

If you were low-income and TV was your sole source of entertainment, recreation, relaxation, information about the world - you might consider it to be more of a necessity.

When people have little to no discretionary income and nothing to occupy their minds or their time, it is very easy for them to become miserable, depressed, and suicidal - or even worse - bitter and homicidal.

[Wrider]

If you were low-income and TV was your sole source of entertainment, recreation, relaxation, information about the world - you might consider it to be more of a necessity.

When people have little to no discretionary income and nothing to occupy their minds or their time, it is very easy for them to become miserable, depressed, and suicidal - or even worse - bitter and homicidal.

In my experience living on 40-120/week (keep in mind 10 miles each way to school 5 days a week when gas was 4.50/gallon), after rent, the internet is much more useful. I sold my TV, lived on really really cheap food, and used the internet for all of that.

[Hoot]

If you were low-income and TV was your sole source of entertainment, recreation, relaxation, information about the world - you might consider it to be more of a necessity.

When people have little to no discretionary income and nothing to occupy their minds or their time, it is very easy for them to become miserable, depressed, and suicidal - or even worse - bitter and homicidal.

It's not your sole source of entertainment. It is a luxury. Take a walk or get a book from the library or any other number of free activities. It's this type of reasoning that is poisoning our society. We shouldn't hold them accountable for their luxury bill because they might not be able to handle it and become miserable? Seriously?

We have survived as a species for far too long without these things. It is simply a mindset of entitlement.

I work, I make money, I budget my money making choices of what I can and cannot afford. It's not a hard process of you're not a member of congress.

[Tipys]

I'm paid on a commission basis. On my commission checks (once per month) my tax withholding breaks down like this:


25% in Federal Income Tax
4.63% in CO state income tax
1.45% in Medicare
6.2% in social security

37.28% if my paycheck goes to taxes.


Not reflected is the employer paid portions of social security and medicare, which is the same as the employee paid portion, another 7.65%

44.93% of my income goes to taxes, right off the paycheck.

The 7.65 employer paid portion of taxes is part of my overall compensation or cost of employment.

Factor in another 7.63% in sales tax (Colorado Springs 2013 rate), which is paid with after-tax dollars and it's painfully obvious that over 50% of my earnings goes to tax.

Not included would be property tax which is not a percentage of income but rather the assessed value of my home.

Do I pay enough taxes yet? Yes
Am I wealthy or the hated 1%? Hell no, I'm decisively middle-class.

I'm in the top 10% of earnings and I work 60-70 hours per week. Heck, the Friday before New Years I was at work from 10:00am to 3:30am... That's my personal longest day but typically I'm in the office until 7-8pm and until midnight at least once per month.

So when I vote, I generally vote no on tax increases and vote for the candidates that pledge to lower taxes, yet my vote is negated by those who vote yes on tax increases yet pay no or very little in taxes and benefit from the tax increases.

To answer Zanatos's question about why conservatives think the bottom 47% are tax payers are freeloaders...

It's not the 47% but it probably is more like the bottom 27% -- The military serving in combat and the elderly are both statistically in the 47% group but I wouldn't call them freeloaders.

That is not American in my opinion. Everyone should pull their own weight and have skin in the game.

So because your EMPLOYER pays 7 percent that some how raise the amount of taxes you personal pay? Because it does not.

Also not everything you buy has sale tax. Also correct me if I am wrong but don't you live in Fountain? Which has a lower sales tax. Either way again another incorrect statement in your math because not everything has sale tax.

Also how much you claim effects how much comes out. So another question how much do you get back from your income tax return?

Maybe you should do ALL the math before you claim to having 50 percent of your income go to taxes. But you probably won't because you already think the government is stealing all your money and unless your military or elderly your a free loader if you fall into that 47percent.

[#1Townie]

What doesnt have sales tax?

[dirkterrell]

So because your EMPLOYER pays 7 percent that some how raise the amount of taxes you personal pay? Because it does not.

And if you think that expense isn't figured into the salary you are paid, you are mistaken. Clovis may be self-employed, in which case you do pay the "employer's" portion of FICA.

[Wrider]

What doesnt have sales tax?

Oregon.

[Ezzzzy1]

What doesnt have sales tax?

Not a whole lot of things. Most commonly would probably be internet purchases that are made out of state. The Government has yet to get us there but the push is always on.

Other than that I cant really think of anything else.

Tipsy just because something doesnt say that tax is being charged doesnt mean that its not being paid (by the retailer/seller). Often people (smaller business) include sales tax as part of the purchase price.

[Hoot]

Food generally doesn't get taxed. I'm talking food you prepare, not at a restaurant. There are some things that are taxed at lesser rate, I can only remember sugar tax. Sales tax goes to a local municipality not state or fed, but it is post federal and state taxes that's what really sucks about it.

[Tipys]

And if you think that expense isn't figured into the salary you are paid, you are mistaken. Clovis may be self-employed, in which case you do pay the "employer's" portion of FICA.

And you seem to think if the employer didn't have to pay that tax they would pay you more? Some companies yes most probably not.


Either way my point is. The way his math is done he out of his personal income is not taxed 50 percent.

Think what you want most do anyway. But if your going to complain about taxes even if your getting taxed 2 percent or 80 percent you should probably be aware of the real amount your being taxed. Not how bad you can try to make it sound on paper.

[dirkterrell]

And you seem to think if the employer didn't have to pay that tax they would pay you more? Some companies yes most probably not.

And who would you choose to work for?

[TinkerinWstuff]

And you seem to think if the employer didn't have to pay that tax they would pay you more? Some companies yes most probably not.

no, they would pay whatever the going rate is for the labor they needed dictated by the availability of said labor in a competitive labor force.

If the employer didn't have to pay that tax tomorrow, it would lower their overhead costs and allow them to undercut their competition to win more business. Until the competition realized they were losing orders and had to cut their costs too or go out of business.

It would very likely lower costs of goods and services to the consumer through competition.

[Wrider]

In support of this thread, I refer you to Atmel, a cleanroom production facility located in Colorado Springs. In December they laid off 40 of about 400 employees. Yesterday, they laid off another 150-200, with another 200 planned for when they get all of their machines down and moved overseas.

[TinkerinWstuff]

In support of this thread, I refer you to Atmel, a cleanroom production facility located in Colorado Springs. In December they laid off 40 of about 400 employees. Yesterday, they laid off another 150-200, with another 200 planned for when they get all of their machines down and moved overseas.

that's fucking sad

but every time our government forces expenses on the employer in a global economy, more Americans will continue to lose their jobs.

interesting video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50138922n

[Zanatos]

If America would stop being the World Police, we would have the smallest debt of any nation on the planet.