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Thread: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

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    Senior Member UHATEIT's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    I saw that on facebook this morning. Not sure how well that would work as it didnt go so well for Rossi while there.
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    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    All about the money most likely.
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    I have my doubts, first that was not an official MotoGP announcement but just a report of what was said on a Spanish radio station. Second, they have since added this:

    This news was quickly denied by Ducati Motor Holding CEO Claudio Domenicali, who joked with La Stampa: "Really? Then we should also sign Marquez and can save us the development of the bike."

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    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    holy shit!!! I would have seen move to Honda before him moving to Ducati.
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    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    I dk, just posting what I saw lol... and development of what? Those things are junk anyway lol
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    Not even Marquez could get that crappy bike in the top 5. CRT > Ducati factory.

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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    Not even Marquez could get that crappy bike in the top 5. CRT > Ducati factory.
    Now there's no need to be hatin' on Ducati because they make a better bike than yours. In all seriousness though, if you looked at qualifying, the factory Ducati team were up towards the front quite often. Sadly, they could qualify strong, but couldn't keep the pace come race time. Either way, claiming CRT > Ducati Factory is utter nonsense, except that it's coming from a hater who rides a bike by a manufacturer that has no MotoGP team, and doesn't even race well in WSBK. The Ducatis may be slower than satellite teams, but they are still miles ahead of the CRT class. That said, we'll see what happens this year with all the regulation changes.

    Hurry up March 23rd!
    Last edited by Drano; Thu Jan 16th, 2014 at 01:42 PM.

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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    It was an exaggeration, but the point was that the Ducati's have a problem with the Ducati's, not the guys who sit on them, so changing riders will have a it as much of an effect as changing the oil when your O2 sensor is bad.

    Comparing a MotoGP bike to any bike we mortals can buy is like comparing an Audi R18 to an Audi R8.

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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    It was an exaggeration, but the point was that the Ducati's have a problem with the Ducati's, not the guys who sit on them, so changing riders will have a it as much of an effect as changing the oil when your O2 sensor is bad.

    Comparing a MotoGP bike to any bike we mortals can buy is like comparing an Audi R18 to an Audi R8.
    Well much needs to be questioned concerning whether it truly is the bike, or if it is the rider. Obviously, the standings don't lie. The Ducati team can't keep up with the other factory teams on race day, but that begs the question: If they can qualify strong, what's happening during the race? Inconsistency is hardly the domain of machinery. While I certainly believe that the Ducati has a lot of room for improvement, if history has shown us anything, sometimes all it takes is the right combination of rider and machine to make magic happen. There's nothing saying it can't happen on a Ducati. Point in fact, Casey Stoner.

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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    Well much needs to be questioned concerning whether it truly is the bike, or if it is the rider. Obviously, the standings don't lie. The Ducati team can't keep up with the other factory teams on race day, but that begs the question: If they can qualify strong, what's happening during the race? Inconsistency is hardly the domain of machinery. While I certainly believe that the Ducati has a lot of room for improvement, if history has shown us anything, sometimes all it takes is the right combination of rider and machine to make magic happen. There's nothing saying it can't happen on a Ducati. Point in fact, Casey Stoner.
    There are lots of problems with the bike. This is not a question of the riders. Ducati has had loads of talent in the saddle over the years and only one was able to consistently ride it to the limit. For the rest it has substantially been a career ender. Nick Hayden is one of the best riders in the world (really anyone who can qualify for a mgp race is). He tests more than any other rider and trains as hard as any of them. The bike was holding him back. Valentino Rossi has more natural talent then 1/2 of the CEV series put together. He couldn't make it work. Ben Spies should have been regarded as one of the aliens. No one enters a series (SBK) on a bike they haven't ridden before, at tracks they have never seen before and wins the championship. It just doesn't happen. He couldn't make the Ducati work, and it ended his career. Melandri is a pure talent and nearly won SBK. He is, I believe, the most recent rider to win on a non-factory bike in mgp. He couldn't make it work. You can't point to the outlier (stoner) and say the rest of these guys weren't motivated enough. Each one of them has a level of competitive drive that normal people can't understand.

    Can qualify well but can't go race distance. Easily could be a bike problem. Let's start with the fuel constraint in MGP. Getting max power (max fuel burn) for a few laps is easy with that map installed and the need to only go a few laps. They might have a problem with their "economy" mode that they need to make race distance. Casey had a larger fuel load available when he was racing than the teams do now. That is one potential answer. Another is tire management. Again, easy when you only have to make a few laps, but a much bigger deal when you have to go race distance.

    "Inconsistancy is hardly the domain of machinery". While the statement is true, you ignore the downstream effects. If the machine is consistently hard to ride on a physical or mental level you can enter into exhaustion trying to keep up with it in a hurry. The above two points also apply here if the electronics severely change how the bike rides from mode to mode inconsistency in the feel of the bike can quickly become a factor that greatly impacts the rider.

    Jorge isnt going to ducati. My $ is on that he is using the honda opening to leverage his contract with Yamaha to get them to commit additional development dollars to the mpg team.

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    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    Well much needs to be questioned concerning whether it truly is the bike, or if it is the rider. Obviously, the standings don't lie. The Ducati team can't keep up with the other factory teams on race day, but that begs the question: If they can qualify strong, what's happening during the race? Inconsistency is hardly the domain of machinery. While I certainly believe that the Ducati has a lot of room for improvement, if history has shown us anything, sometimes all it takes is the right combination of rider and machine to make magic happen. There's nothing saying it can't happen on a Ducati. Point in fact, Casey Stoner.
    Quote Originally Posted by rybo View Post
    There are lots of problems with the bike. This is not a question of the riders. Ducati has had loads of talent in the saddle over the years and only one was able to consistently ride it to the limit. For the rest it has substantially been a career ender. Nick Hayden is one of the best riders in the world (really anyone who can qualify for a mgp race is). He tests more than any other rider and trains as hard as any of them. The bike was holding him back. Valentino Rossi has more natural talent then 1/2 of the CEV series put together. He couldn't make it work. Ben Spies should have been regarded as one of the aliens. No one enters a series (SBK) on a bike they haven't ridden before, at tracks they have never seen before and wins the championship. It just doesn't happen. He couldn't make the Ducati work, and it ended his career. Melandri is a pure talent and nearly won SBK. He is, I believe, the most recent rider to win on a non-factory bike in mgp. He couldn't make it work. You can't point to the outlier (stoner) and say the rest of these guys weren't motivated enough. Each one of them has a level of competitive drive that normal people can't understand.

    Can qualify well but can't go race distance. Easily could be a bike problem. Let's start with the fuel constraint in MGP. Getting max power (max fuel burn) for a few laps is easy with that map installed and the need to only go a few laps. They might have a problem with their "economy" mode that they need to make race distance. Casey had a larger fuel load available when he was racing than the teams do now. That is one potential answer. Another is tire management. Again, easy when you only have to make a few laps, but a much bigger deal when you have to go race distance.

    "Inconsistancy is hardly the domain of machinery". While the statement is true, you ignore the downstream effects. If the machine is consistently hard to ride on a physical or mental level you can enter into exhaustion trying to keep up with it in a hurry. The above two points also apply here if the electronics severely change how the bike rides from mode to mode inconsistency in the feel of the bike can quickly become a factor that greatly impacts the rider.

    Jorge isnt going to ducati. My $ is on that he is using the honda opening to leverage his contract with Yamaha to get them to commit additional development dollars to the mpg team.
    I'm going to have to agree with Rybo on this. Especially after reading Stoner's book "Pushing the Limits". The main thing I took away from his book was that Casey was more willing to win at all costs, because it meant so much to him. He had something to prove and was the hungriest guy to throw a leg over the Ducati. He was inline to be Rossi's teammate, that didn't pan out, then the stint on the satellite Honda. Which in turn showed he had potential but he also had a lot of crashes and issues with the tires. He was so willing to show the potential he had, that as soon as Ducati offered him a factory ride, he took it.

    And much credit should be given to Casey for his ability to ride around a bikes issues and adapt well to the package he's been given. But you also have to look at his performances on the Ducati to tell that it was already in decline right after he won the championship in 2007. Ducati didn't invest in the bike or their rider. They got content and that's where they've stayed. Casey only managed 3 race wins his last season with Ducati(his illness notwithstanding), but the Ducati year after year won less and less. That could be due to the fact that Honda, Yamaha, etc finally caught up in 2008 and beyond. Yet it showed that even Stoner wasn't able to ride around the Desmo's blatant problems of communicating the front end back to the rider. Obviously Stoner left for more personal reasons and he'd always wanted to ride for Repsol Honda but he knew the Ducati was already long in the tooth and jumped ship before it completely sank.

    If you look at how the Ducati performed with Stoner, only 2007 was the real dominant year for it:
    2007 = 10 wins, 2008 = 6 wins, 2009 = 4 wins, 2010 = 3 wins

    Suffice to say, Stoner was on the decline after 2008 and the Ducati was/has been a complete shitbox since 2010. And while 2008 was a good year for Ducati and Stoner, Rossi clearly reigned supreme with 9 wins on the Yamaha. 2008 was the nail in Ducati's coffin.

    I think majority of the consensus would be that Ducati have a crappy bike. There are those in the minority that believe that just because Stoner was successful on the Ducati, then it must be a rider issue and not a bike issue. Keep in mind also, Stoner crashed quite a bit on the Ducati, his "win it or bin it" way of doing things on the bike is what landed him on the ground frequently.

    I also agree about the qualifying being non-relative to race day performance. Just because you can qualify great, doesn't mean that you can go the distance on race day. Which I think really shows just how crappy the Ducati is, sure Dovi and Hayden could qualify well with the bike. But then Sunday would roll around and they'd be fighting each other for 8th or 9th, or 9th and 10th and in some races finishing almost a full minute behind the race winner. I mean come one, those are really crappy stats and not stats that I'm sure Ducati, Hayden or Dovi are proud of.

    Look at Rossi, you know the fuel consumption of the bikes is a problem. During the 2nd half of the season his qualifying got way better and he was able to post times within a half second to the front guy. Even leading during practice or qualifying sessions, until everyone started to really cut their lap times down as best as possible. Yet, in the race, Rossi's size and weight played a part in the fuel consumption of his bike. His bike's ability to not stop in the fashion that he's accustomed to, played a part as well. It's obvious the Yamaha is more designed around Lorenzo now, so Rossi is having to play catch up with it.

    Same goes for Ducati, they can crank out a fast lap here and there. But their race pace sucks hind tit and they fall off the pace in a hurry.

    And Drano, you mention "inconsistency", where's the inconsistency? The Desmo consistently finishes the race in 7th thru 10th places. That's actually very consistent. It's not like, placing 10th at race one, then winning race two, then DNF race three and four, to go on and have races five, six and seven finish 4th - 7th. That would be inconsistent. Those kind of results would show that it probably has more to do with a rider than the bike. Especially if the placings are all over the place(<--for lack of a better word). But when both Dovi and Hayden finish right on each others nuts every race, then yeah it points to more of a "bike problem", than a "rider problem".
    Last edited by The Black Knight; Thu Jan 16th, 2014 at 10:38 PM.
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    @Rybo: I appreciate the very informative response. As you can clearly see, I still have much to learn. I was oblivious to the performance differences between qualifying and racing. I operated under the assumption that those two conditions were equivalent to each other. I stand corrected and thank you for it.

    @The Black Knight: Thank you as well. In regards to inconsistency, it was based on my erroneous understanding that qualifying = racing. Under that assumption, the inconsistency was between qualifying times and race times. Now that I have been properly educated concerning the difference I recognize the fallacy in my logic and concede the point I made.

    I will, however, stand by my statement that inconsistency is not the domain of machinery for obvious reasons. Only a rider can take a machine beyond, or below, its limits. I also stand by my statement that sometimes magic happens between rider and machine. Nobody thought Rossi would be successful when he switched to the M1. He proved them wrong. Nobody thought a rookie could enter MotoGP and walk away with the championship. Marquez proved them wrong. A lot of that is dependent upon a remarkable combination of conditions, and being in the right place, at the right time. Neither does it happen all the time, but every once in a while it does, and it is spectacular to watch.
    Last edited by Drano; Fri Jan 17th, 2014 at 12:05 AM.

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    Senior Member Matrix's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    As Longrider states...this is the sick fantasy of a radio station and far from fact. While money will always be a factor in any decision making for the top performers of a sport, once they have achieved greatness the will to win ultimately rules. Leaving Yamaha for a sub-par bike is not in the cards for someone of Lorenzo's caliber.

    My guess...Lorenzo on a Honda in 2015.
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    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: Lorenzo to Ducati for 2015

    There was a strong rumor halfway through last year that Honda was trying to negotiate Lorenzo but well at this point who knows what can happen.
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