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Thread: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

  1. #25
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    And I could easily say he was only fighting for a win due to the absence of other riders, but I'm not making that claim. The point I'm making is basic-level statistics. No researcher in their right mind would attempt to claim that their experiment works based off a single sample. Until Rossi makes a consistent showing, I'm not willing to make claims that his "return" has statistical relevance.
    True, but then I can always say to you and those riders who fell. If you want to finish in first, you must first finish. No one cares that those riders fell. It's racing and in racing anything goes. I've seen guys at front walking to victory only to bin it because they got too carried away in their pace. Champions finish races and that's why Marquez clinched the world title over Lorenzo. Lorenzo won 8 and Marquez 6, but Marquez finished with a dizzying consistency on the podium. Sometimes winning the most races doesn't mean winning the championship.
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  2. #26
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    True, but then I can always say to you and those riders who fell. If you want to finish in first, you must first finish. No one cares that those riders fell. It's racing and in racing anything goes. I've seen guys at front walking to victory only to bin it because they got too carried away in their pace. Champions finish races and that's why Marquez clinched the world title over Lorenzo. Lorenzo won 8 and Marquez 6, but Marquez finished with a dizzying consistency on the podium. Sometimes winning the most races doesn't mean winning the championship.
    I agree that you can never predict what will happen on race day, but eventually Rossi will have to contend with the entire field, and that will be a better test of whether fanboys can claim that he's back. I only think he has to be able to keep the pace against them ALL before the claim can be made that he's still competitive.

    I get the feeling that you think I have something against Rossi, I don't. The only thing I am doing is taking a pragmatic approach to his performance. I don't blindly follow any person, creed, or ethos. Too many people on these boards believe that Rossi will come back swinging whilst disregarding the downturn in his ability to consistently perform well over the past few years. They try to dismiss his results as the fault of the bike he's on. He went to Ducati, "It's the bike's fault!" He comes back to Yamaha, it's the same sob story. "He has a lesser bike than Lorenzo!" It's a cop-out. We're talking about Rossi here! He made his claim to fame walking away from a sure thing with Honda to ride on a much inferior Yamaha, and he proved he can win! I don't have a problem with Rossi, I have a problem with fanboys.

  3. #27
    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Given that he fought for that first place like he was hungry against Marquez I can say he's back. Winning a championship, possible buy like you said consistency is what it'll come down to. A lot of people NEVER thought he'd finish 4th in the championship last year at all, just like Marquez was the biggest upset as well. In this league anything can happen. Obviously we'd love to see him win his 10th as his time is running out and well there's hope and will support him even through the bad times. Obviously times have changed and Marquez along with other riders stepping up their riding game and putting on the pressure but all in all he handled himself rather well for the 1st round and the bike is suiting him a ton better.
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  4. #28
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    I agree that you can never predict what will happen on race day, but eventually Rossi will have to contend with the entire field, and that will be a better test of whether fanboys can claim that he's back. I only think he has to be able to keep the pace against them ALL before the claim can be made that he's still competitive.

    I get the feeling that you think I have something against Rossi, I don't. The only thing I am doing is taking a pragmatic approach to his performance. I don't blindly follow any person, creed, or ethos. Too many people on these boards believe that Rossi will come back swinging whilst disregarding the downturn in his ability to consistently perform well over the past few years. They try to dismiss his results as the fault of the bike he's on. He went to Ducati, "It's the bike's fault!" He comes back to Yamaha, it's the same sob story. "He has a lesser bike than Lorenzo!" It's a cop-out. We're talking about Rossi here! He made his claim to fame walking away from a sure thing with Honda to ride on a much inferior Yamaha, and he proved he can win! I don't have a problem with Rossi, I have a problem with fanboys.
    I don't think I've ever said he had a lesser bike. He did have a bike that was designed by Lorenzo, and yes I have said, you'd be a fool to think that Yamaha weren't backing their #1 rider more than their #2. I'm sure Lorenzo got parts(maybe parts just designed for him) before Rossi last year. Lorenzo was in contention for the title and Rossi was not, you can't tell me that factory Yamaha aren't going to back their guy that has a stake in the big game?? I mean come on man, I was born at night but not last night..

    And while you take the pragmatic approach, I will use the sanguine approach. Clearly, Rossi has upped his pace from last year. Was .194 off Marquez in Sepang 1, co-led Sepang 2 with Pedrosa, and while showing a strong pace in Phillip Island, Lorenzo was quicker than him. Albeit Rossi did have a better race simulation in Phillip Island, also PI was a Bridgestone test specifically for the October race. Bridgestone were after data just for PI and PI alone. So that test(if you want to call it that) meant nothing really. The teams(Yamaha, Honda and Ducati) didn't really focus on bike set-up and data gathering. Rather here's a set of tires run them for six laps then report back to us type itinerary.

    I'll never dismiss his results on a Yamaha. That's a tried and true racebike with plenty of development behind it. But again, you can't expect me to buy your BS of his performance on the Ducati was his fault and not the bike's. Like I said before, I was born at night but not last night. We all know the Ducati is a big, heaping, steamy pile of shit. It has been since Stoner rode it. Honestly it's been sucking hind tit since about 2009. So yes, Rossi's results on the Ducati will always be due that the bike and not of his own. Could he have gotten better results on the Ducati?? Maybe, if he wanted to ride over the limit of the bike. Suffer numerous crashes and possibly another injury. Stoner had that luxury, he was younger and was hungrier. Stoner didn't care, he had the "win it or bin it" mentality.

    There are no cop-outs here. Just objective analysis of what's happening on track. 2013 - Rossi had issues with the handling of the bike under hard braking(his main weapon). 2014 - Rossi fixes issues with braking and is already posting better results. 2nd place in 2014 Qatar is not the same as 2nd place in 2013 Qatar. Rossi was 5 seconds down on Lorenzo in 2013. Yesterday he was .2 from Marquez at the line battling for 1st. Yeah, I'd say that's a huge leap in results. Remember, Lorenzo isn't a factor in this race because, well he couldn't stay on his bike. You say "no cop-outs" I say, no could of, should of, would of's.

    And if you think I'm a fanboy that's fine. I'm a huge Rossi fan and have been for over 13 years now. Been watching Rossi in the premiere class for a long time but have been into MotoGP longer before(i.e. my first GP race I ever saw was with Criville in 1999, wasn't hooked on GP til I saw Rossi).


    Quote Originally Posted by madvlad View Post
    Given that he fought for that first place like he was hungry against Marquez I can say he's back. Winning a championship, possible buy like you said consistency is what it'll come down to. A lot of people NEVER thought he'd finish 4th in the championship last year at all, just like Marquez was the biggest upset as well. In this league anything can happen. Obviously we'd love to see him win his 10th as his time is running out and well there's hope and will support him even through the bad times. Obviously times have changed and Marquez along with other riders stepping up their riding game and putting on the pressure but all in all he handled himself rather well for the 1st round and the bike is suiting him a ton better.
    Very well said. Consistency is key, look at Hayden's 2006 Championship. Hayden won only 2 races. Rossi won 4, Rossi crashed out, had tire failures up the ying yang and inevitable did the unthinkable and crashed in Valencia while holding a 8 point lead on Hayden.

    When the flag drops the bullshit stops and that's what we witnessed yesterday. If anything it tells us, "it ain't over until the fat lady sings..."
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  5. #29
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I don't think I've ever said he had a lesser bike. He did have a bike that was designed by Lorenzo, and yes I have said, you'd be a fool to think that Yamaha weren't backing their #1 rider more than their #2. I'm sure Lorenzo got parts(maybe parts just designed for him) before Rossi last year. Lorenzo was in contention for the title and Rossi was not, you can't tell me that factory Yamaha aren't going to back their guy that has a stake in the big game?? I mean come on man, I was born at night but not last night..
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    My answer?? Lorenzo has the better bike...Don't tell me they are both on equal machinery...
    Logic dictates that if one of the bikes is better, then the other is not better. Sure, you argued that Rossi wasn't getting parts as quickly as Lorenzo, but it all comes down to the same thing. You believed that Lorenzo had the better bike come race day, and that was affecting Rossi's chance to be competitive. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or that you didn't say what I just quoted you as saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    And while you take the pragmatic approach, I will use the sanguine approach. Clearly, Rossi has upped his pace from last year. Was .194 off Marquez in Sepang 1, co-led Sepang 2 with Pedrosa, and while showing a strong pace in Phillip Island, Lorenzo was quicker than him. Albeit Rossi did have a better race simulation in Phillip Island, also PI was a Bridgestone test specifically for the October race. Bridgestone were after data just for PI and PI alone. So that test(if you want to call it that) meant nothing really. The teams(Yamaha, Honda and Ducati) didn't really focus on bike set-up and data gathering. Rather here's a set of tires run them for six laps then report back to us type itinerary.
    And I applaud your optimism! I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I want Rossi to be competitive and to do well! I'd love to see him get another championship before he retires. All I have said this entire thread is that it's far too early in the game to go about making claims that Rossi is "back". By back, I mean a consistent showing, or at least battling to be, in the top 3. If he can do that over the course of the season I'll happily agree with the argument. Until then, I'm not going to extrapolate anything based off one single race. It would be no different for somebody to come on the forums and say that Lorenzo has no shot at a championship due to his crash yesterday. It's nonsense without more DATA!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I'll never dismiss his results on a Yamaha. That's a tried and true racebike with plenty of development behind it. But again, you can't expect me to buy your BS of his performance on the Ducati was his fault and not the bike's. Like I said before, I was born at night but not last night. We all know the Ducati is a big, heaping, steamy pile of shit. It has been since Stoner rode it. Honestly it's been sucking hind tit since about 2009. So yes, Rossi's results on the Ducati will always be due that the bike and not of his own. Could he have gotten better results on the Ducati?? Maybe, if he wanted to ride over the limit of the bike. Suffer numerous crashes and possibly another injury. Stoner had that luxury, he was younger and was hungrier. Stoner didn't care, he had the "win it or bin it" mentality.
    I don't disagree with the fact that the Ducati is a shitty bike. The results for multiple riders prove it. I was only pointing out that it is an excuse made by Rossi fanboys who tout his legendary ability of taking a losing bike and making it a winner. When the news came down that Crutchlow was moving to Ducati for this season I cringed. I almost feel like the bike, in it's current iteration, is a career killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    There are no cop-outs here. Just objective analysis of what's happening on track. 2013 - Rossi had issues with the handling of the bike under hard braking(his main weapon). 2014 - Rossi fixes issues with braking and is already posting better results. 2nd place in 2014 Qatar is not the same as 2nd place in 2013 Qatar. Rossi was 5 seconds down on Lorenzo in 2013. Yesterday he was .2 from Marquez at the line battling for 1st. Yeah, I'd say that's a huge leap in results. Remember, Lorenzo isn't a factor in this race because, well he couldn't stay on his bike. You say "no cop-outs" I say, no could of, should of, would of's.
    Any researcher knows that objective analysis requires much more information than the results of a single podium. Testing and qualifying are great indicators, I agree, but they are not guarantees of victories or podiums because they strip out the critical variable of racing. Until Rossi can prove he's capable of consistent podiums, he is a long shot away from being "back".

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I, for one believe Yamaha have made sure Rossi didn't infringe upon Lorenzo's turf too much this season.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    I also feel that(and as much as I hate to say this) Rossi is intimidated by Lorenzo. Not by the fact that Lorenzo is a racer and maybe faster. But I believe Rossi is intimidated by the fact that if he goes out there and smokes Lorenzo, he may feel the wrath of Yamaha and Lin Jarvis.
    No cop-outs indeed! Had Rossi been able to go out there last season and battle it out with Lorenzo, then he'd have had just as much of a shot taking the championship as Jorge did! Something I highly doubt Yamaha execs would lose any sleep over. You're probably right, though, If I were Yamaha I'd much rather have my riders in a 2 & 4 standing than a 1 & 2, 1 & 3, or even a 2 & 3. It makes perfect sense not to want to beat Honda!
    Last edited by Drano; Tue Mar 25th, 2014 at 12:02 AM.

  6. #30
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    OK - I'm in.

    Any rider in the top 10 in Moto GP is talented enough to win the championship. The thing about MotoGP is that it requires a bunch of variables to come together that are not definable by purely objective analysis. A rider in MotoGP can't go out and ride the "data" like an F1 driver can, and even that is a suspect comparison.

    At the end of the day in Motorcycle racing (at all levels) the mood and attitude of the rider when they get on the bike has a much larger impact on performance than ANY OTHER factor. This (not the tires) is why AE41 was able to lead all of the practice sessions (even on the standard tire) despite being more than 10 KPH down in the trap speed. It's also why he crashed twice in qualifying (where he would have clearly chosen the soft tire). At his second crash he had put in the fastest time in every sector to that point.

    In the race, what we saw, is that the electronics are still a huge factor in this game. Even with an extra GALLON of fuel the "open" bikes couldn't manage to run near the front at a track where fuel is often a concern.

    The soft tire will not be a factor in "open" race finishes, because that tire won't be able to go race distance on most of the open bikes.

    What I think is so interesting is that for the second time, in as many years, Honda has been caught off guard by a smaller manufacturer. In Moto 3 by KTM and now in Moto GP by Ducati and Yamaha. Honda, who has exerted almost thug like force over the rules in all of the GP classes in recent years fails to locate the loopholes in the rules that they help to craft. As a result the NGM Forward team is substantially running last year's full factory configuration, but with extra fuel and Ducati is running a full factory effort under the Open designation. I think this is brilliant work by Lin Jarvis and Gigi Dall'Igna, and maybe exactly what racing needs. That Honda so badly interpreted their own rules (said tongue in cheek) and developed a wholly uncompetitive "customer" bike has got to be embarrassing at best and the end of someone's career at Honda at worst.

    To the complaint that the racing should go back to "The only TC a rider should have is in his right wrist" I say "bullocks". GP racing is supposed to be about improving the breed. The area that's improving more than any other, today, is electronics. To say that I can buy a bike off the showroom floor that has traction control, but that the same technology can't be used in MotoGP is absurd.

    What round 1 of 2014 proved is that the best teams will prevail. They are in the business of winning races, and they will find ways to do so even in the face of nearly oppressive rules (20L of fuel, frozen engine design etc).

  7. #31
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    So I dont think I understand the point of all this. So essentially, the top racers who win will get handicapped so that the lesser riders will win based on performance and then soon get handicapped as well until they're all on a level playing field in which case the best riders will win regardless (unless something happens, obv.)

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  8. #32
    Senior Member The Black Knight's Avatar
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    The top guys won't get penalized being as they are factory teams and elected to go the route of most restriction. The ones getting penalized will be Open Class teams if they achieve X amount of results.
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  9. #33
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    Logic dictates that if one of the bikes is better, then the other is not better. Sure, you argued that Rossi wasn't getting parts as quickly as Lorenzo, but it all comes down to the same thing. You believed that Lorenzo had the better bike come race day, and that was affecting Rossi's chance to be competitive. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or that you didn't say what I just quoted you as saying...

    And I applaud your optimism! I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I want Rossi to be competitive and to do well! I'd love to see him get another championship before he retires. All I have said this entire thread is that it's far too early in the game to go about making claims that Rossi is "back". By back, I mean a consistent showing, or at least battling to be, in the top 3. If he can do that over the course of the season I'll happily agree with the argument. Until then, I'm not going to extrapolate anything based off one single race. It would be no different for somebody to come on the forums and say that Lorenzo has no shot at a championship due to his crash yesterday. It's nonsense without more DATA!

    I don't disagree with the fact that the Ducati is a shitty bike. The results for multiple riders prove it. I was only pointing out that it is an excuse made by Rossi fanboys who tout his legendary ability of taking a losing bike and making it a winner. When the news came down that Crutchlow was moving to Ducati for this season I cringed. I almost feel like the bike, in it's current iteration, is a career killer.

    Any researcher knows that objective analysis requires much more information than the results of a single podium. Testing and qualifying are great indicators, I agree, but they are not guarantees of victories or podiums because they strip out the critical variable of racing. Until Rossi can prove he's capable of consistent podiums, he is a long shot away from being "back".

    No cop-outs indeed! Had Rossi been able to go out there last season and battle it out with Lorenzo, then he'd have had just as much of a shot taking the championship as Jorge did! Something I highly doubt Yamaha execs would lose any sleep over. You're probably right, though, If I were Yamaha I'd much rather have my riders in a 2 & 4 standing than a 1 & 2, 1 & 3, or even a 2 & 3. It makes perfect sense not to want to beat Honda!
    Blah blah blah, this shit is getting old between both of us. Let's just agree to disagree. I still stand by my "no cop-out" statement from the past, that I think that may have been one of Rossi's worries was to not out perform the then current reigning world champion Lorenzo. I believe this year is completely different. Lorenzo had his chance to retain the title, he lost it and now it's anybody's game.

    And yes Yamaha want to take it to Honda. But let's be honest, there still is a bit of vitriol between Yamaha and Rossi. Maybe not in the garage's or between Lorenzo, but it's with the higher ups. The top brass within Yamaha. But you believe in what you believe and I'll believe in what I believe and we'll leave it as that.

    One thing I will agree with you, Ducati is a career killer. Luckily for Rossi his name is big enough to have survived and the fact he's back at Yamaha helped to repair it.
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  10. #34
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
    Blah blah blah, this shit is getting old between both of us. Let's just agree to disagree. I still stand by my "no cop-out" statement from the past, that I think that may have been one of Rossi's worries was to not out perform the then current reigning world champion Lorenzo. I believe this year is completely different. Lorenzo had his chance to retain the title, he lost it and now it's anybody's game.

    And yes Yamaha want to take it to Honda. But let's be honest, there still is a bit of vitriol between Yamaha and Rossi. Maybe not in the garage's or between Lorenzo, but it's with the higher ups. The top brass within Yamaha. But you believe in what you believe and I'll believe in what I believe and we'll leave it as that.

    One thing I will agree with you, Ducati is a career killer. Luckily for Rossi his name is big enough to have survived and the fact he's back at Yamaha helped to repair it.
    It's all good, man, it's nothing personal, I just enjoy the debate. I am looking forward to an awesome season! I can't wait to see how it turns out!

    I'm gonna go with the 2015 prediction. They're going to bring Giacomo Agostini out of retirement, put him in Lorenzo's spot on the M1, and he's going to take the championship! He's a 15-time world champion! If anybody can do it, he can!

  11. #35
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    Re: MotoGP Open Class - Opinions?

    It's all about the debate! Haha, after all we are all into the same sport lol
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