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Thread: Projects?

  1. #1
    Junior Member BuckNasty's Avatar
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    Projects?

    Anyone have any project cars for the track their working on around the denver area? Im getting kind of interested in building a car for like autocross or track or something. wanna see what im getting myself into. anyways lmk if you guys need help i dont know much and would like to know more. ill bring beer

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    Re: Projects?

    I'm not in co but I just started a build in a Honda civic I'm hoping will be extremely fast. Dropping a six cylinder in it and converting to Awd.

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    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    I've built a couple of cars for autocross before. If you're new to the sport, stay "stock" or buy one that's already built. Unless you are planning on spending the first season tinkering in the garage and testing instead of competing.

    But if you are set on building, read the rule book before hacking up a car. Nothing worse than putting time and effort into a car that doesn't fit into a class or ends up being uncompetitive. Many newbs overbuild for their intended class and ending up bumping up into a class where they are competing against much better prepared cars.
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    Senior Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    I'm not in co but I just started a build in a Honda civic I'm hoping will be extremely fast. Dropping a six cylinder in it and converting to Awd.
    So why start with a Civic? Seems like a lot of extra work, esp to convert to AWD. Or just for the challenge?

    No project car, but I do have a Grand Wagoneer. Been considering getting a Miata for some autocross but thats on the wish list. Apparently I have to finish or do something with the Jeep.
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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    So why start with a Civic? Seems like a lot of extra work, esp to convert to AWD. Or just for the challenge?

    No project car, but I do have a Grand Wagoneer. Been considering getting a Miata for some autocross but thats on the wish list. Apparently I have to finish or do something with the Jeep.
    The civic is my first car. I wrecked it when I was 18. Totaled it really. Rebuilt it and turned it into what I think was a nice car. After running nos and many other things blew the motor. Car has been sitting for the last 12 years.

    Now I'm going to make it a point to make it a complete monster. Yes its going to be a ton of extra work but I'm doing something that many have plotted and gave up on.

    Anyone can do a k20 or something along those lines and build it. Its been done over and over and over and over.

    A rb26 in a civic. I have only seen pics and no laid out builds. You can find tons of forum posts about it costing too much or being too tough.

    We have it planned out and it should be a very fun toy either in the quarter mile or on a road race.


    Well and it will turn some heads. Lol.

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    Re: Projects?



    Last edited by #1Townie; Sat Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:41 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    Well and it will turn some heads. Lol.
    LOL, yeah, people are going to go holy crap, look at that, he is insane to do all that work to it! Interesting project tho.
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    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    I've never been a fan of autox. It's boring to me, and you end up spending 6 hours working for 2 hours of driving. I'll take dedicated track days. I'm currently rebuilding my Pontiac Fiero and will be hitting up HPR later this month. If you want to come down to C Springs we're pulling the motor this weekend and you're free to come by.

    http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/forum...for-track-duty

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    Junior Member BuckNasty's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Awd civic turbo fiero! Those both sound like a lot of fun. Aaron sorry for replying so late I'd love to come by sometime and check out your car and talk to you a little about track days n stuff.

    Thanks for the heads up on starting out guys I could definitely see how people would make the mistake of overbuilding

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    Gold Member asp_125's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Autox is the gateway drug to track days.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    If you want to drive down we'll be working on it most of the day tomorrow. Just shoot me a PM you're more than welcome. As far as the best track day cars, it's hard to say. You cannot beat C5/6/7 Corvettes for performance per dollar spent, but they are expensive to get into. BMW 3 series are popular, and 4th generation Camaros and Firebirds can be quite brutal as well. I chose the Fiero because I've always loved them, I love driving it, and they are a lot of fun. But they aren't the best platform to build any form of performance car with.

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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    If you want to drive down we'll be working on it most of the day tomorrow. Just shoot me a PM you're more than welcome. As far as the best track day cars, it's hard to say. You cannot beat C5/6/7 Corvettes for performance per dollar spent, but they are expensive to get into. BMW 3 series are popular, and 4th generation Camaros and Firebirds can be quite brutal as well. I chose the Fiero because I've always loved them, I love driving it, and they are a lot of fun. But they aren't the best platform to build any form of performance car with.
    Oh when I'm done my civic will be stomping on vets. Buuuut it won't be a legal race car. So in won't be able to do traditional racing. But some of the races I'm going to be doing are the mountain races.

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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by #1Townie View Post
    Oh when I'm done my civic will be stomping on vets. Buuuut it won't be a legal race car. So in won't be able to do traditional racing. But some of the races I'm going to be doing are the mountain races.

    I'm kind of in the same boat as townie. Now that I have a truck and motorcycle to get me around, I plan on taking my 268k mile K24 TSX and putting some work into it since it's worth way more to me than anybody else and the thing won't die. Putting on headers and exhaust next, then will start consider supercharging but I'd really like to find somebody to fabricate a turbo build.

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    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    That and after all is said and done it's still a Civic. If you like them though, more power to you.

    I've always liked the TSX. Friend has one, and we drove the pissed out of it daily. Not only did it keep coming back for more, it still returned excellent gas mileage. I really dislike the FWD part however, it's going to be a never ending battle for traction, and not fun to drive on a track. Personally I'd run from a supercharger, and run right at a turbo. Are you capable and have the resources to fab the kit up yourself? I did that to mine and I'm glad I did.

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    Re: Projects?

    Yeah turbo kits now days are for the most part pretty painless to install. With Google you can truly search everything you need to know/do with extreme details.


    And yes it will be a civic shell sitting on around 700hp. Waiting for its next victom. Lol.

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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    That and after all is said and done it's still a Civic. If you like them though, more power to you.

    I've always liked the TSX. Friend has one, and we drove the pissed out of it daily. Not only did it keep coming back for more, it still returned excellent gas mileage. I really dislike the FWD part however, it's going to be a never ending battle for traction, and not fun to drive on a track. Personally I'd run from a supercharger, and run right at a turbo. Are you capable and have the resources to fab the kit up yourself? I did that to mine and I'm glad I did.
    Yep, it served me 3+ years in the oilfield, survived for a few miles without oil when a dealer forgot to tighten an oil drain plug, had the ECU flashed and drive it through the redlline pretty consistently and it hasn't given me any reason to think it wouldn't go to 500k as is (not that I want it to).

    FWD is a huge pain with traction and already is even though it's not too far from stock, but good for a ski car in the winter. The turbo will help keep its power going in the mountains (I think you were the one who was posting about that).

    I don't have the time or resources to fabricate it, but I did find a kit that might fit pretty well with it. I need a good suggestion for a shop around here. Or if you wanted to pick it up as a project, I really want to learn and not just pay somebody to do the work but I've just been really short on time. Maybe that will change at some point.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Interc...torefresh=true

    Also might consider building the motor, but that seems pretty pointless for the numbers I'm going for (300 maybe 350whp). Or not?
    Last edited by GMR; Sun Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:43 PM.

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    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    I'm surprised I'm saying this, but that actually looks like a decent kit. It includes a lot of the components that you'd traditionally need to fabricate, which is a huge help.

    Now if you're only looking for 350, that kit could probably support that but not much more. Except for the turbocharger they include, I doubt that would go anywhere north of 300. I think you'd definitely need a turbo upgrade. Personally I wouldn't even risk installing it with that turbo, but the rest of the components are worth it and some one will buy that turbo for a couple hundred. One thing that kit seems to lack is a return line, and it looks like the provisions for it aim to use a rubber line. That's bad, you'll want a stainless braided line.

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    Re: Projects?

    I'm pumped on it, going to pair it with the DW65c pump and have to pick out injectors. Stock is 310cc, I would think 600cc would be plenty but they offer up to 1300-2200cc. All I can do is take an educated guess on what to get, I'm sure there is a lot more to it though.
    Good suggestion on the stainless braided line, but when I look at their site on turbos it looks like it is an option so hopefully I'll be able to add it on.
    What do you think is wrong with the turbo besides being too small? I'm not going for big numbers, and since it would be my first boosted build I want to play it safer than sorry.
    You were looking for projects earlier, is this something you have an urge to get into? I have no idea how long I'm looking at labor time (without the tuning), but I'm guessing around two solid days?

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  19. #19
    Has delusions of Kawi grandeur konichd's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?



    Building my GTO for a Drag/trackday car. Should be 600+ HP when its finished. Hotchkiss sway bars, BC coilovers, harrop rear end, DSS axles, Cquence rotors, Hawk Performance pads, Stainless lines, 1 pC driveshaft, Mcload clutch, 243 heads, MSD ignition. Really just have the motor left to build (Cam, headers, intake, TB)
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Quote Originally Posted by GMR View Post
    I'm pumped on it, going to pair it with the DW65c pump and have to pick out injectors. Stock is 310cc, I would think 600cc would be plenty but they offer up to 1300-2200cc. All I can do is take an educated guess on what to get, I'm sure there is a lot more to it though.
    Good suggestion on the stainless braided line, but when I look at their site on turbos it looks like it is an option so hopefully I'll be able to add it on.
    What do you think is wrong with the turbo besides being too small? I'm not going for big numbers, and since it would be my first boosted build I want to play it safer than sorry.
    You were looking for projects earlier, is this something you have an urge to get into? I have no idea how long I'm looking at labor time (without the tuning), but I'm guessing around two solid days?
    You want your injectors to be running at about 80% duty cycle, I imagine 600 would be about perfect. Check the forums see what those guys say. Also, is your car a stick or an auto?

    It's not just that the turbo is small, it's that it will be a cheap, inefficient, low quality turbo. So it's going to have much looser tolerances, and it won't last very long. And when it fails, it'll destroy your engine completely. And before it fails, it'll take a long time to spool, have slow response, super-heat your charge air, and still not put down very good numbers. I'd ask them if you could order the kit sans turbo, but with the stainless braided return and see how much it costs.

    One downside of that kit is there is no provision for an external wastegate, it has to be internal. Internal gates take up less space, weigh less, and are much simpler to fabricate, but they are a big restriction, will result in longer spool times, and won't control boost as accurately. For what you're looking for however, I think an internal gate is perfectly acceptable.

    This would be something I'd be interested in doing, and if you'd like to help that's cool too. 2 solid days on paper, in reality probably about a week. Something always goes wrong.

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    Re: Projects?

    Aaron, sent you a PM. I think it sent, but it doesn't show up in my sent folder so let me know if you didn't get it. Hopefully you did, it was rather lengthy..

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    Re: Projects?

    Might as well post some of the body of the email. Could be good reference material for somebody who wonders onto this thread and knows as little about turbocharging projects as I do.

    I've been following a completely custom job a guy posted on Honda Tech. Since his is custom, I'm sure it took a bit more work than this kit but I would expect to run into some of the same issues as well.
    http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2768183&page=6

    With this kit I mentioned, it looks like for the most part it is direct bolt on but I can imagine at least having to do some cutting around the radiator to fit the intercooler pipe around it.
    The guy in above mentioned thread used a Garrett T3/60-1 with the 1000cc injectors and it looks like he has had good luck and with stock internals. What do I need to pay attention to fitment wise substituting the turbo? So far I've noticed the difference between the turbos are 3" inlet/2" outlet in the kit turbo as opposed to 4"/2.5" with the garrett. Also, the turbine housing for the kit is .63 while there are a variety of options for the garrett (.63 being one of them). The kit mentions .50 A/R compressor, how is that different? I have a lot to learn so I'm really excited to get started on this. I just want to make sure that getting a different turbo isn't going to effectively make the rest of the kit I'm looking at buying, useless because everything would have to be custom fabricated anyways.

    And the kit mentions it comes with the manifold which is the same as the headers, correct? Or should I consider ordering headers separately?

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  23. #23
    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    Is your car an auto or manual trans? I can weld.

    That guy has a pretty nice build, I bet his car will scream. But for your goals, his kit is overkill.

    The turbo he is using is quite a bit larger than the one on the eBay ad, and would add a pretty substantial amount of work to adapt in since it is physically larger, and 3/4 connections are different sizes. It also would not perform well if your goals are 350hp on an otherwise stock motor. It'd lag and come on really late. You generally want the smallest turbo you can get that will still hold its efficiency to near redline. Check out Garrett or any of the other major turbo manufacturers and you won't be hard pressed to find a turbo that is the same size as the one in the eBay ad. I don't have time now to calculate the optimum size for your motor, but the eBay one is probably pretty close.

    Manifolds do the same thing as headers (You can't have both), but they are quite a bit different. A manifold is one common log, like in the eBay ad, whereas headers have independent pipes coming off the head. A manifold will generally spool faster although it's so little you won't ever notice, but the headers will make quite a bit more power once the turbo does spool. Headers are going to cost quite a bit more, and I doubt anyone makes a turbo header for your car. The manifold and internal wastegate are cheap and easy, headers and an external wastegate are expensive and difficult, but yield more power.

    I'll respond to your PM

  24. #24
    Senior Member Aaron's Avatar
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    Re: Projects?

    In looking at the eBay ad closer, they show pictures of a manifold that has provisions for an external gate, and one that doesn't. I'm guessing it's an option.

    To substitute the turbochargers, you're going to have to pay attention to a lot of things, and decide what you want out of this kit.

    The eBay kit does not incorporate a water-cooled turbocharger, so your substitute needs to not be made for water cooling. In the center of the turbo, there are usually 2 connection points, oil feed and oil return. High end turbochargers incorporate 2 more connections for water-cooling. Water cooling is not necessary, but it helps. This would be pretty easy to add to your car independent of the kit if you wanted, but would of course cost a bit more (Maybe $200). Is it worth it for a 350hp kit? I'd say no.

    The eBay turbo uses a T3 turbine inlet flange, and a 5 bolt outlet. The inlet is standard for a T3, the outlet you have options on (V-band, 5-bolt, 4-bolt). 5-bolt is for internally gated turbos, 4-bolt and V-band are for externally gated turbos. You'll need to make sure your new turbo has the same turbine inlet and outlet as the eBay one (T3/5-bolt).

    The eBay turbo uses a 3" inlet, 2" outlet compressor. You'll want your substitute turbo to use the same, but many different sizes are available.

    The eBay turbo uses standard floating bearings. Garrett and many others offer dual ball bearing turbochargers. They are more efficient, will make more power, last longer, but they generally cost significantly more. The turbocharger on my Fiero, by itself, was $1800.

    That's about it to substitute turbochargers. You'll want an internally gated, T3/5-bolt turbine, 3"/2" compressor with or without water cooling and ball bearings in order to fit with this kit.

    Also, remember this. Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick two.
    Last edited by Aaron; Mon Sep 8th, 2014 at 04:58 PM.

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