Monday, October 13 HPR Motorcycles Only Lapping

[#1Townie]

Why in the hell would you want cruise control on a track bike?

He rides from pueblo to Denver all the time.

[Grant H.]

He rides from pueblo to Denver all the time.

but I'm considering making the new bike track only.

Just saying...

[Drano]

We've already determined my tires aren't up for the task, and that I do not generally hold very good corner speeds. On 1 or 2 corners in the track I think I hit my tire's limit, everywhere else I am probably only 70% or so of what the tires can do.

Alright, I'll play along. I should give you more credit and assume you're doing everything in your power to find that extra 1 or 2 seconds per lap, so I apologize if it seemed like I was being condescending in my previous post.

For edification purposes, would you mind sharing what changes you have made, both in your riding style and mechanically, to claim you've found the limit of your tires? How much of an impact have those changes made for your lap times? What tire pressures have you tried running? What braking technique are you using? Are you using both front and rear brakes during deceleration or just the front? Did you notice a significant impact in lap times following the installation of your new master cylinder? Have you made any changes to your steering geometry? What about to rider position? Have you made changes to your compression and rebound settings? If so, which setup seems to be working the best for you? Have you been tracking the changes you've made in order to measure them against your previous settings and lap times?

With the exception of the master cylinder, all of the mechanical changes should be possible with a couple wrenches and a screwdriver, and are relatively straightforward in application. If I'm missing anything, feel free to include those as well, and be as meticulous as you want, because I honestly want to know. There may also be others on here that would love to see the progress you are making in your forays to the track. It's cool because after knowing everything you have already tried, there may be additional insights that can be offered in order to help you continue to improve, instead of telling you things you've already done. Have fun, man.

I noticed you've been including your lap times in your signature. Just for kicks, here are the lap records for HPR: http://mra-racing.org/laptimes/

Wicky, what bike was Matt Lynn riding when he set the record?

[blaircsf]

He was on a ZX-10.

[#1Townie]

Just saying...

Well that would be current. I'm going off what he posted and he was saying for the NEW bike. Also assuming the NEW one would be the daily ride that he would use for those trips. Going right back to the whole point of those long straight rides. But he's a big boy I'm sure if he wants he will clarify.


I also could care less about cruise control. Buuuut it would have been nice on those rides I did from Nevada to Colorado.

[rybo]

He was on a ZX-10.

I'll further clarify and say that while it was a ZX10, it had literally been picked up days before and not converted to race trim much. I think the changes that were installed were:

1) Bodywork
2) Tires
3) Brake Pads
4) Rear Shock
5) Exhaust

Other than that the bike was bone stock.

Amazingly (to me) this record has stood. The weekend Matt set it was literally the first time motorcycles had ever raced at the track.


Back to my point about modern street tires being really good, when I ran track days we had Jason DiSalvo out as a guest rider. He was on Dunlop Q2's and a borrowed motorcycle that he was not allowed to crash and I timed him in the 1:50's. It's amazing how much difference ACTUAL talent makes. The best I've ever managed at HPR is 1:53.8 on a bike that I own and full race tires. I have done sub-2:00 laps on borrowed bikes with street tires.

We had Jakub Smrz out for another one of the days. I didn't time him, but he looked as if he was taking it pretty easy and had no problem passing anyone else that was there that day, and we had a good selection of really fast guys showing up routinely.

[Bueller]

I noticed you've been including your lap times in your signature.

I had to turn sigs back on for this

250 Production Cup

177

Tracey Schram

2:07.304

08/27/11

Gettin' there dblA

[One-ops]

Why is a track newb being compared to pro riders. Whoopty freakin doo. I suck and have had pp's slide all over the place after 5 laps. It's not impossible it happens. Yeah can setting and pressure changes help? Sure they will to a point.
This was some years ago so sure rubber has gotten a lot better since and does every year. I'm sure a sport touring tire is an ideal and great choice for a track tire. It's what he had on the bike when he finally gave in to going to the track. I'm sure he will venture down learning how to adjust the bike with time. Jesus he just started earlier this summer. I know it's sr1000 or what ever but damn. Let's all get together and do some CSC track days! All this expert knowledge on suspension tuning and riding would be really helpful to me and any other "members" that make there way.

[One-ops]

I had to turn sigs back on for this

250 Production Cup

177

Tracey Schram

2:07.304

08/27/11

Gettin' there dblA

Lol weird to see your name. It's just bueller in my head still.
207's hpr yeah?

[Bueller]

That's not me, that's production 250 track record, I think I was doing 2:15's on a 250.
My best on my SV 650 is 2:03.522 (MRA timing) in lightweight endurance.

[One-ops]

Oh ok that's just some 250 salt then eh !?! Lol

[One-ops]

Oh hey are you racing next year?

[FZRguy]

I think the comparison is very interesting. Shows how pros are literally on another planet compared to the average club racer. And club racers are on another planet compared to me....leaves lots of room for improvement.

[Drano]

Why is a track newb being compared to pro riders. Whoopty freakin doo. I suck and have had pp's slide all over the place after 5 laps. It's not impossible it happens. Yeah can setting and pressure changes help? Sure they will to a point.
This was some years ago so sure rubber has gotten a lot better since and does every year. I'm sure a sport touring tire is an ideal and great choice for a track tire. It's what he had on the bike when he finally gave in to going to the track. I'm sure he will venture down learning how to adjust the bike with time. Jesus he just started earlier this summer. I know it's sr1000 or what ever but damn. Let's all get together and do some CSC track days! All this expert knowledge on suspension tuning and riding would be really helpful to me and any other "members" that make there way.

I'd ask you to take a closer look at the sheer amount of times an MRA member has offered invaluable advice to Aaron since he began riding the track and posting his discoveries. They have tried explaining to him that he has plenty of technique to master before he begins upgrading components on a 2013 S1000RR. Now ask him if he actually listened to their suggestions and effectively implemented them. Perhaps I'm being a little more severe with Aaron than I should be. But, unlike you, I've known Aaron for quite some time now. I have spent countless hours hanging out with him on a regular basis. We've had conversation after conversation about bikes, cars, racing, girls, you name it. We've worked on our bikes and cars in his garage and mine. Needless to say, I've been around him long enough to have insights regarding his thought process, and I might know something that you don't.

For as long as Aaron has had his S1000RR I've suggested he look into getting his suspension tuned to him and see if some gains can be made. His response has always been the same, "I doubt it will make much of a difference as I'll never ride my bike hard enough to even notice." I've never agreed with him about that. The reason is simple: your suspension is key to everything good that your bike can do. You say setup only helps to a point? I suppose I can agree in this regard: A good setup is only as good as the rider who uses it. That said, for a good rider, pro or otherwise, setup is everything. What do you think MotoGP and WSBK teams are obsessing over for 4 practice sessions before qualifying and racing? Sure, they're working on the micro level in order to gain tenths of a second, but the principle is the same. It's all in the chassis because it's that important.

When I was much younger, my Tae Kwon Do master taught me an invaluable lesson. She said, "The quality of your opponent is not how he uses his strengths, but how well he has mastered his weaknesses." Aaron is not stupid. He has pointed out many times that he struggles with his corner speed. But what I am observing is not a reluctance to acknowledge his weakness, but to master it. The one factor that is of little importance to Aaron is his suspension. Instead, he is trying to capitalize on where he is strongest. He knows that his S1000RR has straight-line squirt. Why did he start experiencing brake issues? Because he believes if he can keep his speed higher, for longer, and brake later, that he can mitigate some of his losses in the corners. If he were not considering selling and buying a new HP4, the next thing he'd do is install monoblock calipers and carbon discs in order to better manage the heat he builds as he's slowing down for the next corner.

Now ask yourself the next question: Why is he going to sell a perfectly good bike to get a better one? I'll tell you: BMW Dynamic Damping Control. Sure, Aaron also wants the electronic speed control for commutes, but he knows after everything else he does, he's eventually going to have to start messing around with his suspension. Why do that when you can just buy a bike that more-or-less does it for you straight out of the box?

Lastly, nobody is saying Aaron won't see benefits from better tires. He most certainly will. But why not try to get as much use out of the ones you're using while you're still learning? What has he done to try and find more grip? If racing teams sent bikes out that felt good for every corner but one, you'd have a lot of hospitalized riders. If it's only one corner, they make settings changes until that one corner feels as good to the rider as the rest of them. Moreover, they set their bike up on the tires they feel confident will make it race-distance, that doesn't always mean they have the best grip. However, if they can get the bike setup right, they'll usually do even better on softer tires. The only thing being said here is that Aaron can do a lot more on his tires than he thinks he can. Don't take it from me, take it from the pros who are trying to give Aaron million-dollar advice that he values at a dime.

As far as the pros offering their expert advice, last I checked, if you send Rybo a PM and pay him some cash he'll spend the whole day working with you on lines, technique, safety, and speed. I know Bueller has gone out with noobs to show them the ropes. I hardly doubt there are many MRA registered racers who would outright refuse to share their wisdom in an effort to help riders improve. They do what they do because they're passionate about the sport and they're always hopeful that they can bring another rider up into their ranks to race against.

For me personally, it's not angst driving my criticism of Aaron's decision making. It's a desire to see him make the most of his time on the track. Perhaps I'm just wired differently, but I always valued friends for their brutal honesty over those who just tell me what I want to hear.

[The Black Knight]

Wow! Talk about a slap down...

[Drano]

Wow! Talk about a slap down...

I can see how it could be perceived that way, but it's honestly not my intent. If it's taken that way, I apologize.

[The Black Knight]

I can see how it could perceived that way, but it's honestly not my intent. If it's taken that way, I apologize.

lol!! not at all man. I know you and Aaron are buddies. That's why I'm getting a kick out of the smack you two talk to each other, and yeah that was a slap down from you.

[tecknojoe]

True, we want as many people at the track as possible

the only reason to compare him to the pros is just to say the tires aren't at the limit, the rider is. However, it's time to buy track tires and warmers, you will love them. The only reason to hold out is if you don't want to swap between street and track all the time.

some people enjoy brand new top of the line gangster shit, some people race old piles of stock junk. I did the later for the last 5 years and I think it really showed me how much it is the rider going fast and not the bike. Buy what u want, no one will (well at least I won't) judge you for being slow on a super bike. I only care that one more person is supporting the sport

also the best place to improve lap times is the exit of the turn before the longest straights. The hardest place to drop time is on the brakes. Everyone in the mra or track days has room to work on both

also everyone tells me to upgrade suspension before anything. But also work with someone to set it properly. It makes a massive difference

humility is one of the more important things in racing

[FZRguy]

humility is one of the more important things in racing

Racing def has a way of doing that.

[The Black Knight]

True, we want as many people at the track as possible

the only reason to compare him to the pros is just to say the tires aren't at the limit, the rider is. However, it's time to buy track tires and warmers, you will love them. The only reason to hold out is if you don't want to swap between street and track all the time.

some people enjoy brand new top of the line gangster shit, some people race old piles of stock junk. I did the later for the last 5 years and I think it really showed me how much it is the rider going fast and not the bike. Buy what u want, no one will (well at least I won't) judge you for being slow on a super bike. I only care that one more person is supporting the sport

also the best place to improve lap times is the exit of the turn before the longest straights. The hardest place to drop time is on the brakes. Everyone in the mra or track days has room to work on both

also everyone tells me to upgrade suspension before anything. But also work with someone to set it properly. It makes a massive difference

humility is one of the more important things in racing

Humility is not something many people have and certainly racers at the highest levels lack this attribute big time. I firmly believe in confidence and knowing the limits of your own skills but at the same time learning from others and finding out the techniques that they use that help make them faster. If you're humble about your approach you begin to see it pay dividends in the long or short term. Always believing that there is something else to learn, something else to try is what keeps me humble and always wanting to do better and improvement from last time.

All it takes is reaching out to someone with more experience and more knowledge than yourself. The most important thing is to take the advice from others and put it to good use.

I did this very thing with Tecknojoe. After seeing his Le Mans video and hearing of his experience with Simon Crafer I asked his help. The positives of my track experience this year is that I've filmed every session I've done so I asked him to take a look at one of my videos. I knew I was in for a lot of criticism but that's what I wanted. I've never had a problem with ego, so removing it from the equation has never been an issue with me. I care more about learning and becoming better, than worry about an over-inflated opinion of myself. Joe, gave me some pointers and explained them in detail but it was up to me to put them to use. Which I did as best as possible at my next track day. Results?? were a 4 second decrease in all lap times. Not only did a set a fastest lap time but my constant lap after lap times were all four seconds quicker. The great thing was, I wasn't there to work on really nailing down the best lap. I wanted to work on a couple of key issues that were pointed out. Just by working on my braking and shifting alone is what shaved the time off. Once I felt that I was getting those nailed down, I worked on some lines along with corner entry and exit. My main focus that day was Turn 1 and that was my task at hand.

The first person I told about my gains was Joe. He was the one that helped me, so I needed to let him know of my progress. I'm still miles away of where I know I can be but will humbly accept the task at hand.

I think that may be some of the issue people here are having with Aaron. He's not short on confidence or arrogance(I'm sure some see it that way), and some feel he may be lacking in humility. To each their own, whatever makes the guy tick only he knows. I know when you're a Type A personality it is hard to receive some constructive criticism, especially when it goes against what you have your mind set on.

Personally, I think if for whatever reason Aaron believes a new master cylinder makes him more confident. Then I think he should do what makes him feel more confident. I see nothing wrong with the new master cylinder. I do see the carbon brakes as a bit of a stretch in that our bikes no matter how bad ass and powerful are not anywhere the caliber of a MotoGP bike. No ones bike is capable of achieving 217mph down the front straight of Pueblo, so no one needs to have full on carbon discs and monoblock calipers. But if he needs those to make him feel confident then more power to him. I think they will be a more hindrance than help. Again, it's what makes him confident so let him do what feels confident.

Look at all the lame ass superstitions and rituals the riders go through in the pre-race. It's all about confidence building. No one goes faster by grabbing the right side footpeg or digging the leathers out of their ass, or doing some frog like stretching on the bike. What it does do for them is get them in the right mindset, sets the mood for them to be confident. We all have our OCD things we do to help us prepare. I do two out laps for my tires and one cool down for the bike each session. Am I someone that worries about having the best go fast bolt ons? Not really. Yeah I've got a pipe, power commander and different sprockets but that's it. I know for a fact I've got more than enough bike for me to handle and that I need to improve myself more than improve the bike. Sure different sprocket helps with shifting and the pipe and power commander help with extra ponies but that's all.

I've fiddled more with my bikes stock suspension and tire pressures than I have with go fast parts. After each track day I've changed some things with the suspension and so forth. This last track day I think I found something with the setting of my bike and tire pressures.

So for me I think humility is just being yourself and learning from others. Not being to proud to take criticism but confident enough in your own abilities.

[tecknojoe]

I'm only ok with giving advice on very basic things, and info that is solid fact no matter who you ask. It's not my place to advice on anything beyond that. I still have an ungodly amount of learning to do for myself

You're gonna be right behind me real soon, I better get to work

[Drano]

also everyone tells me to upgrade suspension before anything. But also work with someone to set it properly. It makes a massive difference

humility is one of the more important things in racing

The best money I ever spent on my bike was a trip to Ft. Collins to visit Dave at STM. I honestly didn't know what to expect. I thought, "I'll just point at my bike and he'll make it better." I was completely unprepared for what was in store. The number of questions he asked me left me dumbfounded. When he realized that I had no idea why I was really there, he taught me. Every turn of the wrench and screwdriver he had a lesson to go with it, and the one thing I wished I had brought with me was a notepad. In terms of feel, I went in with one bike, and left with a completely different one.

From that point on, I began digging, learning more, making changes, and searching for ways to keep improving the feel. I've pulled my forks apart, changed fluids, adjusted the cartridge emulators I had installed, changed springs, replaced my shock, and never stopped dabbling. I'm not a pro at it, but I was determined to keep exploring my options. If I hadn't visited Dave and listened to what he had to say, it probably would have taken much longer before I felt confident enough to mess with my suspension. I'm very happy I went to him, and listened to what he had to say.

Sadly, he doesn't work on street bikes any more, just dirt and road race. It makes me glad I got to him while he still did.

[rybo]

Why is a track newb being compared to pro riders. Whoopty freakin doo. I suck and have had pp's slide all over the place after 5 laps. It's not impossible it happens. Yeah can setting and pressure changes help? Sure they will to a point.
This was some years ago so sure rubber has gotten a lot better since and does every year. I'm sure a sport touring tire is an ideal and great choice for a track tire. It's what he had on the bike when he finally gave in to going to the track. I'm sure he will venture down learning how to adjust the bike with time. Jesus he just started earlier this summer. I know it's sr1000 or what ever but damn. Let's all get together and do some CSC track days! All this expert knowledge on suspension tuning and riding would be really helpful to me and any other "members" that make there way.

The great thing about pros is that they give us a taste of what is possible.

The great thing about this sport is that what they are doing is knowable and learnable. While they possess a degree of natural talent that the rest of us probably can't have, they utilize skills that many of us can learn and apply. This isn't like mountain climbing, where physiology and genetics play a gigantic role and you're either born with those traits or not. I've never participated in any physical activity (and I've done a lot of different things in my life) where so many different body types, weights, heights etc could be equally competitive because the skill set is what mattered.

So, why compare ourselves (even as newbs) to pros? Because we can learn from them. Look at the pictures, realize that the guys who are in the front consistently going the fastest are also the guys that are falling down the least. Watch the Phillip Island Grand Prix from last weekend and realize that Lorenzo nursed it home on a bum tire, and that a bunch of guys who were "faster" that day didn't. It's a very small glimpse into why he's a world champion and many of the others aren't.

[dirkterrell]

In case anyone is willing to listen, let me give my experience on getting faster as a rider. I had the good fortune to be surrounded by experienced racers when I started riding, and the first lesson I learned was to listen to everyone who would share their knowledge, absorb everything I could, and apply it. I have a very vivid memory from 30 years ago of watching a young kid about my age at a WERA race at Road Atlanta. He was riding an air-cooled FJ600 (heavy four stroke with limited horsepower) against some guys on the most tricked out, powerful RZ500's (light two strokes). Of course, they would pull him on the straights but through the corners, he had that damn bike going sideways, often in the dirt and he'd make up crazy amounts of time. I thought he was going to kill himself, but he won the race. One thing I learned right there was that the greatest amount of time to be made up by a new track rider was to be found in developing skills. Yes, once you got close to the lap times of the fastest guys, trick bits on the bike started making a difference, but until then, your money was best spent on learning how to ride whatever you had. Oh, and that young kid's name was Kevin Schwantz.

There is, however, one key part of the bike that you need to spend some money on: suspension setup. If you don't have that set correctly, you will be fighting the bike and it will be very uncomfortable. I was at Pueblo once and struggling with corner entries on my GSX-R 750. The bike just wasn't settled like it should be. I talked to Dave Rose, describing what it felt like. He asked a few questions. He started pushing on the suspension of the bike and dialed a few things in. He told me to give it a try. In the next practice session, the bike felt like it was a part of my body. I was braking hard enough going into turn one that the back wheel was off the ground, but I felt like I was in perfect control. Lap times plummeted. I had a similar experience later at HPR when the track was new. Going into turn 4, it just didn't feel right with vibrations coming from the front. I lost confidence in the front, so I was losing time. I thought about what was happening and dialed back the damping a little. Better but not perfect. Dialed it back a little more, and all of a sudden, corner entries were nirvana. Lap times dropped. The lesson here is that getting your suspension tuned right is crucial to going faster. You'll be amazed at how much of a difference it makes, especially if you're not 5'5" and 140 lbs. When you have confidence that the bike will stay settled, you can push harder. And getting the suspension set up is not all that expensive either.

Modern tires are pretty amazing. I raced on Pilot Power 2CT's for a while. The day I decided to switch to race DOT's was a Friday practice at Pueblo when it was about 100 degrees out. The back tire was beginning to slide on corner exits. I was showing Jay a line through turn 7 that Mark Schellinger had taught me and Jay said I was leaving big black streaks on the exit. I could feel it beginning to slide and I'd just hold the throttle there, but I felt like a better tire would let me continue to throttle up. The race tires did that. But in corner entries and mid corner, the street tires felt fine. If you're having trouble with the tires sliding, make sure you understand why. It could be bad rider inputs. Maybe you can improve things with better body positioning and a little less lean angle. Talk to tire experts like Oscar. Experiment with tire pressures in a systematic way and see if you can find a sweet spot.

Modern brakes are also pretty amazing. Even under the hardest braking on the track, I just use my index finger. When I ride one of my old 80's-era bikes, I have to use two. They are a lot harder to haul down from speed. I tend to focus last on braking when looking for time. As someone mentioned earlier, I tend to focus on the other end of the straightaway, maximizing my speed at the start to get more time. Turn 3 at HPR is a great example of where to focus your efforts in that regard. When the track opened, I tried various things over and over in that corner and watched the speedo on the exit until I maximized my exit speed. Throttle control is crucial. You don't want to high-side there for sure.

I never reached the point where I thought I needed to make any hardware upgrades to the Gixxer. It was completely stock except for the body work and the levers. Yes, even the exhaust was stock. I was still making great progress in my lap times by focusing on my riding skills when I had to retire from racing due to foot injuries. I was spending my money on instruction with people like Mark Schellinger and Jason Pridmore. I was talking to and following people like Bueller, Rybo, Jim Wilson and Mike Applehans, watching what they did. And I was getting better and better because of it. I spent a day at Pueblo with Mark Schellinger once and he pointed out that I was riding the Gixxer like an 80's bike (and he knew because he had raced them). The next race weekend my average lap time in Heavyweight Endurance dropped by 5 seconds. If you had given me a bike with twice the horsepower, I wouldn't have achieved that sort of improvement.

So, if the goal is to turn faster laps, focus first on the piece of hardware that connects the handle bars to the seat. Get your suspension set up properly and then I guarantee you that if you spend a day with someone like Nick Ienatsch, your lap times will drop significantly more than they will by buying a new bike.