PMP 4/26 Races or Track Day

[hcr25]

There were 11 bikes today at HPR. 5 corner workers and an ambulance all day.
How many people rode/drove at Pueblos event? How many corner workers did they have?

[The GECCO]

I hate hearing this. What's the deal, does is it cost that much to have one during events?

Not nearly as much as it could cost to not have one...

[madvlad]

Not nearly as much as it could cost to not have one...

thus why you guys kick ass nothing but track days at HPR for me

[One-ops]

Not nearly as much as it could cost to not have one...

Should be a no brainer. Hopefully this changes and nobody gets hurt until it does.

[Snazzy]

There were 11 bikes today at HPR. 5 corner workers and an ambulance all day.
How many people rode/drove at Pueblos event? How many corner workers did they have?

As far as I know, about 3-4 people.

Too bad people won't drive out to the rest of our tracks, I'm excited for the day HPR is the only track left in Colorado.


Promote more people out to Pueblo and an ambulance will come. As I said before, the track can't afford to have an ambulance because no one shows up to the track and if the ambulance was mandatory the track would go under!

Every time we've gone to Pueblo there have been MAYBE 5 people, except the $60 day, and that's $750.... an ambulance is $1000 + corner work fees. How can the track possibly afford that much of a loss?

Why is it so hard to get people to drive out to a track? We couldn't even get riders to show up for $60!! And there was an ambulance that day because there were over 10 people there, bikes + cars.

[madvlad]

As far as I know, about 3-4 people.

Too bad people won't drive out to the rest of our tracks, I'm excited for the day HPR is the only track left in Colorado.


Promote more people out to Pueblo and an ambulance will come. As I said before, the track can't afford to have an ambulance because no one shows up to the track and if the ambulance was mandatory the track would go under!

Well that's the problem, if the track doesn't provide safety it won't succeed, period. It's like a business wanting to boom but have no inventory or won't promote their services/products. It took years of fighting and arguing with them to do something about turn 10 and till now they decided to "fix it" from what some people said and not all that well. I've never ridden pueblo nor I think I want to. Takes two to tango, moar services means moar $$$ incoming ... a track that can't provide proper safety measures probably shouldn't be open, safety is huge in this sport as you know. If the rider doesn't feel safe, that's a no go, guaranteed

[Snazzy]

Well that's the problem, if the track doesn't provide safety it won't succeed, period. It's like a business wanting to boom but have no inventory or won't promote their services/products. It took years of fighting and arguing with them to do something about turn 10 and till now they decided to "fix it" from what some people said and not all that well. I've never ridden pueblo nor I think I want to. Takes two to tango, moar services means moar $$$ incoming

What exactly should be done to turn 10? Ride smart through turn 10, it's at track day and you can't win track days.
This is a losing battle for Pueblo, because no one will come out. It's more like a business that is doing all it can to stay in business and try to make more business so that they can provide better services.
Would you even come out if there was an ambulance? Doubt it. You ride IMI with no ambulance.... it's not that safe, as I proved once.


All I can say is I love PMP and will continue supporting it in hopes that things one day it will change and people will drive an extra hour for a track day/race weekend.

[The Black Knight]

I understand concerns on both sides of the argument. However, as for myself, I really enjoy "not" having a ton of people at the track. Seems every time I do a track day, I end up with the whole track to myself. I've mentioned that people should come out but if people don't want to show up to Pueblo, then I ain't losing sleep over it.

The fact that they don't have an ambulance on site matters little to me. I've had a nasty crash before(2006) and walked away from it. For sure riding at the track can be risky and more dangerous as the speeds are higher. However, you people for the most part still ride on the street. You're all probably 100 times more liable to get screwed up while riding on the street, and I guarantee that most ambulances will take longer than 6 minutes to show up to a traffic accident.

Some people feel safer with emergency personnel track side. Others don't seem to be bothered by it. Everyone rides to their own limits.

I've always liked this quote and live by it in all aspects of life.

"The All-Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer. Your fate is fixed. Fear profits a man nothing." - Herger

Way I look at it, is you can go at anytime, can't live forever. Riding at the track in my opinion is still way safer than the street. It's a controlled environment, and if you can ride to your limits. You'll have a long life in riding at the track. Things can happen, but that's life. They can happen at any time.

[blaircsf]

I would say for me personally, track day vs race matters. I'll ride IMI with no ambulance, I would ride a track day with no ambulance (although I would prefer one there given the choice). I'm not advocating riding over your limits in a race (in fact I would advocate the opposite), but realistically you are going to be pushing a bit more than you would for a track day. Each person can make their own decision as to how hard they are willing to push given the circumstances. The other issue I see is what if the six minute away ambulance isn't there?

I also like having multiple tracks within close enough proximity and I hope that doesn't change (I would be a fan of more even). In my opinion though, hosting a race series with no on-site ambulance is going to cause some people to not be interested in attending.

[madvlad]

To each its own, I won't ride at a track with no on site medical help. At IMI you push like 30% pace being is a really slow track. Have they bothered to ask people why they won't come out? Just out of curiosity? Doubt it's location cause HPR is in the middle of nowhere and they seem to get good volume through.

[Aaron]

Not having an ambulance on-site doesn't really concern me. Of course I'd rather have one, but that doesn't shape my decision to ride there or not. I also don't have a problem with turn 10, but I don't push at all through it, and I make sure the bike is upright and down the center before I dip in to the throttle.

I like PMP. I like HPR more, but it costs me a lot more time and money to go to HPR.

Even without an on-site ambulance, the time it takes to get you to a proper hospital is far less in Pueblo.

[Drano]

If and when I begin riding on the track, it will never be at a location without EMS on-site. The rationale, in my mind at least, is simple: the track is supposed to be a controlled environment where you can push harder than you would/should on the street. Pushing harder means an increased possibility of crashing. Having EMS on-site contributes greatly to the sense of security that ultimately enables a rider to find the limit. For me, no EMS means a diminished level of comfort riding harder. If I'm being overly cautious at a track because I fear I might crash, I might as well be riding on the street where I have no desire to push myself either. It's not much of a controlled environment if some of the controls are missing. I'm not saying that I would want to crash on the track any more than I would on the street, but if I'm paying to use a racing facility, I expect it to be money well spent helping me achieve my goals. Maybe that's just my competitive nature, because if I'm spending good money to run laps, I'd better be improving my times.

I've met many riders/adrenaline junkies in my time, and many of them exhibit that arrogant perception of invincibility combined with minimal self-awareness. We've all seen it. As much as they may think nothing can ever happen to them, I assure you, tucking the front at 40 MPH in full gear can still be fatal. If you want an example, you need look no further than me. Obviously my crash didn't kill me, but if you'd like to speak to my doctor, you can ask him if he expected me to survive. He didn't. This leads me back to having EMS on-site. You can never be too safe, and I would argue that the track should carry the utmost level of assurance that if the worst happens, I should still have the best chance of survival. Some people may feel comfortable not having that, but not this guy.

[Okrapp]

There were 6 bikes that showed up and 4 dwarf cars for that day. Only 4 bikes actually went out though. Hopefully, nicer weather outlooks will improve the turnout for subsequent rounds.

Having just started track days last fall and only done the Pueblo track so far, I never really noticed the absence of ambulance before having seen one there for the open house day. It was a comfort to have them there and was a bit surprised they weren't there for this next event. The additional corner workers would be nice too since it took them a bit to respond when someone did go down at the open house.

There is a validity in both sides of the discussion as to more services would draw more bikes vs. more bikes draw more services and which has to happen first. It would be nice to have both and maybe the race series will help make that happen. I'd certainly be happier with medical folks on hand for anyone that gets hurt.

[Snazzy]

When I ask people to come out, I hear, "it's too far"

Not having an ambulance can be sketch but I just keep it in mind when I ride and find my limits.

[hcr25]

In my opinion having a track day without an ambulance on site is a really bad idea. We go to the track to learn and test the limits of our skills. Sometimes doing this we make mistakes. At the track we expect a certain level of safety compared to riding on the streets or the canyons. That level of safety includes some sort of medical personal, someone controlling who and what is on or crossing the track and corner workers to warn us about what's going on in front of us.

If none of these are present when doing a trackday what are we paying for? Just the use of the asphalt?
If that is the case we should all just keep riding the canyons.


Now to the point of promoting and holding a race event without an ambulance on site. Not only is that irresponsible it could be negligent as well. People are being told it's a 6 minute response time to get a ambulance there? I doubt it could get there from the entry road on Pueblo blvd in 6 minutes.

I like and enjoy riding at Pueblo but haven't rode there in two years. Maybe someday soon.

[The Black Knight]

I agree, race event there should be all sorts of staffing and emergency response there. Track days on the other hand, not so much.

Only thing though Mike about riding the canyons. Yes I do pay to just use the asphalt and I also pay to not have traffic, law enforcement and wildlife not in the way. Canyons offer all the things that get you in trouble. For someone like myself who holds a CDL, I can't afford even one ticket on the street as it reflects on my driving record. So yes I gladly pay for just using the road course. Saves me a lot in the long run.

[Redline]

I partly agree with Snazzy, I would push myself harder if there is EMT's on site, if they are not there, just ride safer, still safer than riding the canyons! And still plenty fun.

I would say that with no EMT they should have more concern to track prep and cleanliness, to eliminate more variables.

[tecknojoe]

U don't notice the missing ambulance until you're lying in the dirt possibly dying

u can wreck taking it easy. I wrecked at the open house on an out lap riding about 50% pace. It's unpredictable. It's your own choice and ur entitled to it.

ive corner worked and ridden at tracks all over America and Europe. Ambulances are a standard, and not having one is exceptionally dangerous. That makes pueblo the second most dangerous track I've been to, behind the Isle of Man. At least they have medics on r1s

[The Black Knight]

LOL!!! I think no one goes to the Isle of Man expecting it to be safe. That's the point of that race, to cheat death and live to tell the tale.

[Redline]

^^^!! Can't wait for Isle of Man!

When I was younger I could care less about safety now with a family, I want to come home at the end of the day. Safety is worth a lot!

[One-ops]

Don't get me wrong I like the track. I've got awesome history there. Just thought the no workers or bus was temporary.
Being stupid careful and having to tip toe starts making it just turning laps. That's expensive.

[Bueller]

Hell! We ran SCR with the cars, didn't need no stinkin' bamblance.

I crashed once and woke up in the Hospital, not sure about response time but it seemed instantaneous to me.

[Snazzy]

If I wasn't for PMP I would have only two track days over the winter and not been remotely ready for the race season. I'm glad they are there and open. I'll pay for the asphalt cause it sure helped me become a way better rider, over come my fears (after crashing) and improve my skills a little at a time.

[Drano]

Can't afford an ambulance because no one goes to the track and if they had a mandatory ambulance the track would go under then we'd be down to two tracks.... until PPIR goes under too.

More people go to PMP = ambulance comes

It really sounds like a "damned if you don't, damned if you do" conundrum for the owner. Renting an ambulance and paying for sufficient corner workers could potentially bankrupt them, and it may seem like a reasonable course of action to argue, "if they come, we will build it". That is, right up until the owners face a lawsuit from an injured, or deceased person's, party seeking damages for inadequate safety practices resulting in said serious injury or death. At which point, even if the owners are not found liable, the costs of mounting a defense will surely seal their fate. Having EMS and adequate corner-workers is as much a safety net for them as it is for us.