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Thread: How do we save PMP?

  1. #25
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Just out of curiosity, for those of you who view riding the track without EMS present as a relative non-issue, how many of you have ever been injured to such an extent that you needed one?

  2. #26
    Senior Member UglyDogRacing's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

    My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

    In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.

    Not sure where you're getting the "very rural crew" from or the lack of equipment or personnel experience, but the ambulance service used by HPR, and the MRA, is Western Ambulance and they are based out of Denver. Their staff receives very specific training for Motorsports events, which I and both MRA and HPR Board staff have attended. HPR also has it's own mobile fire suppression in place so a local fire crew is not necessary. When we hold our round at Pueblo, we use Western Ambulance, not AMR. I would not entrust the safety of our riders with any other service.

    You clearly have had a lot of experience with AMR due to your law enforcement background but it has nothing to do with operating a motorsports event.
    Last edited by UglyDogRacing; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 11:12 AM.
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  3. #27
    Senior Member j0ker's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drano View Post
    Just out of curiosity, for those of you who view riding the track without EMS present as a relative non-issue, how many of you have ever been injured to such an extent that you needed one?
    Me.... Laid there holding my leg back together for 2 hours then another hour before I was actually at a hospital.

  4. #28
    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmetz View Post
    Probably not the best way to garner support.
    It's okay man, must be nice to have the money and time to be at every track day possible lol, some of us aren't as lucky. Even with all that and I'm still faster on a slow ass 03 R6 than most novices out there including canyon king on his 1k gixxer aka BMW killer, funny how that works... Imagine if I had seat time *starts pondering*... I'm not worthy .... those that know me know the reason why I don't have money to put at the track and it's called supporting my family.
    Last edited by madvlad; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 12:18 AM.
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  5. #29
    Gold Member madvlad's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyDogRacing View Post
    Not sure where you're getting the "very rural crew" from or the lack of equipment or personnel experience, but the ambulance service used by HPR, and the MRA, is Western Ambulance and they are based out of Denver. Their staff receives very specific training for Motorsports events, which I and both MRA and HPR Board staff have attended. HPR also has it's own mobile fire suppression in place so a local fire crew is not necessary. When we hold our round at Pueblo, we use Western Ambulance, not ALS. I would not entrust the safety of our riders with any other service.

    You clearly have had a lot of experience with ALS due to your law enforcement background but it has nothing to do with operating a motorsports event.
    Corner working I've seen nasty crashes first hand and how effective and quick these guys/girls work, they're kickass.
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  6. #30
    Senior Member hcr25's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

    My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

    In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.

    I'm curious to know when you were there and you saw this "rural" ambulance crew?
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  7. #31
    Senior Member Moderator Spooph's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Using myself as a case study - previously I didn't want to go to PMP because everybody's response was usually "it's a crappy track without the right support". Now that "the right support" has been fleshed out and I can accurately assess the risk, I really want to go.

    This is a great example of not only a great thread and reasonable discussion, but also how social media can change the perception of a track. Gonna do my best to make it out to PMP this year....

    Thanks for all the info folks!
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  8. #32
    Senior Member Ezzzzy1's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    PMP is great especially when its you and 3 of your buddies and the whole track is yours to do what you want

    Currently in talks to do a track day with Nick Ienatsch down there if anyones interested in info shoot me a PM.
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  9. #33
    Senior Member Moderator Slo's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Ambulance crew, yes it's awesome to have them around, but even without it, still much safer riding at the track than what happens up in the hills every day. So you won't ride at the track when there is no ambulance crew onsite, but will venture up to the hills surrounding yourselves with complete unknowns with other riders that are probably less skilled than at the track, other vehicles, nature, worse road conditions, cliffs, law enforcement/tickets, or worse and the thousand other things?

    I like PMP, did car days there before I ever stepped foot on there with 2 wheels. If I still had a capable car, would be a blast to go down there for a track day with the car and bike. Have met Judy and she is awesome, great character. As far as distance, we all have become spoiled with having access to so many tracks nearby.... and the price. Yes, even Pueblo is not a long distance, even if your from Boulder/Longmont comparing with other parts of the country I have lived.

    For me, it would be nice to have power out there, shade in the form of garages/carports would be awesome but a dream for many obvious reasons. If they were to put power out there, I would give them the funds from getting rid of a generator or, the funds from having to buy one.
    Last edited by Slo; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 10:49 AM.

  10. #34
    Senior Member One-ops's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    I like riding there and hpr. I'd ride them more if I wasn't broke.

  11. #35
    Senior Member The GECCO's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    This has been on my mind for some time, I just didn't want to be the one nay-sayer, and I certainly still want an ambulance so I don't want to play devil's advocate.

    My problem with HPR is the ambulance crew they use is a very rural crew, they certainly don't have the equipment or personnel experience that the AMR cews that would respond to PMP would have. Plus, at PMP, you also get an ALS Fire Crew with the Dispatch, whereas you don't at HPR. So PMP's response time is about 10 minutes longer, but once on scene, has triple the medical staff, double the equipment, better equipment, and more training/experience.

    In Pueblo the time from the track to a hospital is 10-12 minutes. Except that's not a basic hospital, it's the most advanced Level 1 trauma center south of Colorado Springs. You'd need an hour from HPR to get to a similarly equipped hospital.
    I'm also curious where you get this "rural crew" stuff? You need to be more informed before you spout off.

    From day one at HPR we have used Western Ambulance, and we only use ALS buses, not BLS (for those that don't know what all these acronyms are: an ALS bus is staffed with one Paramedic and one EMT, a BLS bus is staffed with two EMT's. AMR is American Medical Response, the name of the largest ambulance service in Colorado). Western Ambulance is the ONLY ambulance company in Colorado that trains specifically for motorsports, I have had a hand in creating their training program and have been a part of it every year since I first hired them to work for the MRA more than a decade ago. They know how to deal with the equipment that riders and drivers wear, the vehicles, etc. They know how to cut leathers off along the seams so that they can be repaired. They know the workings of the track and how to respond to certain areas of the track quickly and safely, where I've personally seen other crews completely freak out over the idea of going out on a racetrack. We get consistent crew members because they have very low turnover. Virtually ALL of the clubs also use Western Ambulance, this consistency leads to a familiarity and trust between the track staff and the medics that adds to the safety of the participants.

    As for them not having the equipment or experience that AMR does - When Mike Applehans crashed in the Pikes Peak Hill Climb, the medics from AMR that responded literally didn't know how to unbuckle his helmet! He got frustrated and told them to just cut the strap. I won't go as far as saying that AMR is bad, but I will absolutely say that in the area of motorsports Western Ambulance is FAR superior.

    HPR has also paid to have an 800mhz radio on site so that we can talk directly to Air Life, Flight for Life, Northern Colorado Med Evac, etc. We are the ONLY track in Colorado that has this.
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  12. #36
    Senior Member Moderator Gramps's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    I think PMP is a blast to ride and have done several track days there every year I have lived here. So I would tell anyone that it is a great option if they want to ride the track. Is it HPR? Well no but Glenn and Mike and for that matter all the clubs involved have done a great job of continuous improvements and marketing to keep the track going in the right direction.

    With that being said I think the main things they need are marketing and safety improvements.

    Marketing by someone being vigilant about posting up dates on the various websites to remind people about track days. Especially the weekend track days that are rare because of prearranged events. I would probably do several this year and bring some other riders with me.

    Safety is obvious and has been beat to death. Correct me if I am wrong here but there was a time early on when HPR had "abbreviated" services. By that I mean there were corner workers but not in every corner and the EMT's of course. What I am getting at is there is a way to drastically improve safety without having to go all in at first and everyone wins. Again I could be wrong here. As far as the meetings that could be self managed by the riders if someone will step up at the events. Rybo and Ralph have done these in the past. It's not rocket science just a quick refresher on the rules and track directions.

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  13. #37
    Senior Member The GECCO's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong here but there was a time early on when HPR had "abbreviated" services. By that I mean there were corner workers but not in every corner and the EMT's of course.
    Yes and no. We have gone through some revisions over the years regarding which corners we do and do not staff on lapping days based on a combination of being able to see the entire track and having workers with a flag in the corners that have a combination of high incidents and/or blind entrances, etc. We have had to ask the ambulance crew to fill in on the rare occasion that more than one worker calls off at the last minute or something unusual happens.
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  14. #38
    Senior Member hcr25's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    To add to what Glenn said.

    On motorcycle lapping days HPR usually has workers in 6 of the 13 corner stations. From those spots the entire track is covered visually. Everyone has radios to communicate any incidents.

    HPR has also recently installed a series of PTZ cameras to help track day and race control. Over the next couple of weeks HPR is installing safety warning lights in every corner station and start finish. These will also help with safety and with future endurance races.
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  15. #39
    Senior Member Moderator Gramps's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Ok so the only reason I brought that up was to point out that PMP would not have to have a corner worker in every corner as long as the whole track can be seen and monitored. Pretty amazing what you guys have done to solve the issue by the way.

    Thanks for the input!
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  16. #40
    Senior Member tecknojoe's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Don't they watch from only the tower sometimes? That's another case where I wouldn't ride
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  17. #41

    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slo View Post
    Ambulance crew, yes it's awesome to have them around, but even without it, still much safer riding at the track than what happens up in the hills every day. So you won't ride at the track when there is no ambulance crew onsite, but will venture up to the hills surrounding yourselves with complete unknowns with other riders that are probably less skilled than at the track, other vehicles, nature, worse road conditions, cliffs, law enforcement/tickets, or worse and the thousand other things?
    I adjust how I ride depending on the circumstances. I always ride within my limits, but how close to my limit I try to push depends. There are differences in how I ride in the canyons, at IMI, unstaffed track days, track days, races, etc. I'll agree a track with no support is safer than open roads, but if I'm just going to ride at 50% ability (as an example), there really isn't a point in paying for a track day. There are things to work on and practice without pushing the limits, but the conditions, location, people around definitely affects how I ride.
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  18. #42
    Senior Member Moderator Slo's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by blaircsf View Post
    I adjust how I ride depending on the circumstances. I always ride within my limits, but how close to my limit I try to push depends. There are differences in how I ride in the canyons, at IMI, unstaffed track days, track days, races, etc. I'll agree a track with no support is safer than open roads, but if I'm just going to ride at 50% ability (as an example), there really isn't a point in paying for a track day. There are things to work on and practice without pushing the limits, but the conditions, location, people around definitely affects how I ride.
    Hi I'm SLO and I fully endorse this message...... LOL 100% agree with above.

  19. #43
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    All you guys freakin' out over PMP would have shit a brick at a Second Creek track day!! They would run cars and bikes together. I've had my knee on the ground and my helmet on a car door at the same time...

    I absolutely love PMP! Loved La Junta, too. Corner workers or an ambulance was never a consideration on whether I would go or not. What keeps me from going is the high price. With Kim being a track junkie, too, everything at our house is X2. Got spoiled on the $45 all day at SCR.
    Last edited by Kim-n-Dean; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 01:14 PM.
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  20. #44
    Senior Member hcr25's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim-n-Dean View Post
    Man!! It's amazing any of us survived Second Creek!! They would run cars and bikes together. I've had my knee on the ground and my helmet on a car door at the same time...

    I absolutely love PMP! Loved La Junta, too. Corner workers or an ambulance was never a consideration on whether I would go or not. What keeps me from going is the high price. With Kim being a track junkie, too, everything at our house is X2. Got spoiled on the $45 all day at SCR.

    I agree about the good old days. Then two people were killed at La Junta. Had there been at a minimum a riders meeting talking about to get on and off the track safely that accident probably never would have happened. An ambulance may have helped but it certainly wouldn't have made things worse.
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  21. #45
    Gold Member Kim-n-Dean's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcr25 View Post
    I agree about the good old days. Then two people were killed at La Junta. Had there been at a minimum a riders meeting talking about to get on and off the track safely that accident probably never would have happened. An ambulance may have helped but it certainly wouldn't have made things worse.
    Terrible, terrible situation for sure!! I've never been at Second Creek where people weren't told how to enter and exit the track. The La Junta incident should have never happened. From what I was told, a rider who had never been on the track was put on an experienced racers bike and was given no instruction. How could you send a beginner out and tell him nothing?!? My god!! And it cost two people their lives. Complete waste!!!

    It also pisses me off that the parents of the rider who caused it, sued. I understand that they were upset, but Jesus Christ!! Your kid caused it!!!!!!!!

    BTW - Applesauce, how ya doin'?
    Last edited by Kim-n-Dean; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 01:29 PM.
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  22. #46
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    Yes, there are more risks and obstacles on the street, but that doesn't mean a track is immune from danger, it's just more predictable. The track is a place where you have the opportunity to ride faster than would on the street in a much safer environment, but riders still crash, many times at higher speeds. If a rider loses the front while on the brakes at the end of the main straight at 120 MPH it's likely going to become a bad day. An ambulance might even be needed. But there won't be one, not for 10 - 15 minutes or so.

    So when you hand Judy your $150 what are you are paying for? What makes it a safer environment? If it's only for clear pavement I'd say you're getting ripped off. You still have traffic, it's just going in the same direction. Hell, with a full tank of gas I can ride out into the mountains and find plenty of clear pavement, have the time of my life, encounter less traffic than you will during the course of your lapping day, ride a lot safer than you are, have the same amount of ambulances on hand (0), and I didn't pay $150 for it. Will I encounter traffic to and from my street ride? Yes, and unless you live next door to the track, so will you.

    So how many of you track riders go to the track without accepting the fact that you may crash? I don't know that I would have much confidence in the conditions, the other riders, or myself for that matter, regardless of how safe the track happens to be, because I'm of the firm opinion that disaster can strike at any time. If I'm going to be spending my hard earned money to ride the track, I'm riding it because I'm ensured that I'll be taken care of should the worst happen. PMP won't get a cent of my money until they are able to offer that.
    Last edited by Drano; Thu May 21st, 2015 at 01:43 PM.

  23. #47
    Senior Member UHATEIT's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    I rode PMP last August at one of the Sunset Safety Clinics with Nick Ienatsch and thought it was a nice place. It was my first time ever on a track and I had fun. Anyone concerned about serious injuries or the need for an ambulance should just ride within their limits and they should have any issues having a crash that would warrant an ambulance to show up. For the safety clinic it was $60 and it was some of the best $ I've spent since owning a bike. I'd have no problem riding on that track again, I just dislike the long trip straight trip to get there.
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  24. #48
    Gold Member Bueller's Avatar
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    Re: How do we save PMP?

    I have no issues riding PMP without a bus there, you take at least as big a risk if not more in the mountains, and there is no ambulance there. I have walked away from all but a couple of crashes at the track. It is nice to have medical on site for sure but you do have to pay for it.
    And whining about how far the track is just bitch ass bullshit. Driving a couple of hours for a trackday is a luxury for a lot of people. I drove 4 to 10 hours for some good trail riding (very far from medical). A couple hours ain't shit.
    I like Pueblo now after the repave but to me HPR is a far superior track. I have ridden all the recent history tracks, and was greatly saddened when they started closing. I would hate to see PMP close but they have had the same problems for years, and no one seems to be able get it all on track. I'll probably take the Mustang to car days but not sure about the bike.


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